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General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » So who decided that the Holy Trinity of class dynamics was a bad thing?

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341 posts found
  Bladestrom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3133

8/09/13 1:29:48 PM#101
+1 as well. The twins in gw2 ac in early days (where you had to seperate them) was a superb example of a highly strategic fight with roles that did not involve a pure trinity, e.g, kite/cc specced for dmg limitation and speed and spike to grab attention while others with dmg limitation and dps.

Perfectly possible to have interesting battle that has no Zerg or tank, we just need the developers to resist temptation to go for the old old ways and start evolving gameplay again into domething fresh.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist)

Now playing Wildstar, AOW 3

  User Deleted
8/09/13 1:45:27 PM#102
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by Panzakat
UO never had the holy trinity.... /ponder

UO also had the most simplistic combat mechanics ever, and there were certainly "builds" that most players preferred to play as.

this is true,

tank mage ftw!! omg.. until meditation... full plate and packing fireblast/explosion ebolt! fear my corp por!

But I never pressed taunt while some one else backstabed and another cast a mighty demon... 

Late nights fond memories kiting demons to a row of boxes, because the AI couldn't navigate past them. So they evolved the AI to destroy the boxes.... and then new ways had to be found.

Which I think is a good example, players adapt to find creative solutions to fit their respective play styles. Crying no trinity no game at this stage is really the sky is falling in talk. The game is free to play from launch. Try it, adapt to it, create new ways, I read yesterday a dev comment about CC, something about smashing a hole in the floor and dropping the mobs through it. Just because you can't dust off your mezzing %t macro doesn't mean there aren't alternative fun ways to CC mobs. Soe is thinking outside the box and lets face it the box has gotten really really old.

As a past EQ2 raid leader, I feel that instead of  shouting at specific class A to do  B, I now will have the opportunity to divert anyone with the relevant ingenuity to do various parts of the encounter. Much more fluid less turn base encounter management, more tactical, I can imagine a scenario, where you'd call for heavy armor to block the add spawning passageway while mage 1 seals the passage with an ice wall, rather than fighter 1 2 & 3 plus cleric camp that corner and spar with the adds till boss dead.

  Ticklepink

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/13
Posts: 122

8/09/13 1:47:27 PM#103
Originally posted by Bladestrom
+1 as well. The twins in gw2 ac in early days (where you had to seperate them) was a superb example of a highly strategic fight with roles that did not involve a pure trinity, e.g, kite/cc specced for dmg limitation and speed and spike to grab attention while others with dmg limitation and dps.

Perfectly possible to have interesting battle that has no Zerg or tank, we just need the developers to resist temptation to go for the old old ways and start evolving gameplay again into domething fresh.

yea...why try to bake a cake with flour and sugar and eggs..that's so old school..lets start using sand and gravel and cement!

  Panzerbase

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 431

8/09/13 1:48:13 PM#104
The "I've decided to jump on the newest hype train crowd"", that's who. 
  krondin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/05/09
Posts: 83

8/09/13 1:54:29 PM#105
Originally posted by czombie
Originally posted by krondin

If i were putting out a game today, I would try to have different type of play servers for my game , so most people had type they liked.  What i believe would be found if this happened, even with just a small selection of server types, would be people saying they like one style and in fact most migrating to a single type .... the group required type. WHY? because despite what people say about what they like in a game the facts remain the same, most people play online games to SOCIALIZE . Not to run around by themselves soloing everything except where there is a community to brag about it in, hence still a type of socializing.

I didn't realize that MMO's were taking away the ability for people to be social.  I still do play WoW and there are all kinds of ways to interact with other people if one so chooses.  None of them have been taken away.  Instead, I have the freedom to also play on my own if I'm having a bad day and don't really want to chat with people and just beat on mobs in low-level quests that I haven't finished yet or solo some lower level instance and make some money on the auction house.  If I didn't have the choice to do this, I would probably play less and might even unsubscribe and spend my time playing console or 4X games.

The evolution of MMO's has been all about giving players more choices in order to attract more different types of players.  It's a shame that old-school MMO'ers want everybody's personality to be exactly like theirs so that they can enjoy their games more.  This strikes me as some kind of annoying groupthink.  I play games to escape from reality, not to have more idiots try to force their version of what they want reality to be upon me.

Please forgive me for not adding a disclaimer at the bottom of my post which should have read like this....

" You must have an IQ bigger then your shoes size to understand this post "

 I posted in general terms simply pointing out overall that, most people, not all, prefer a social community when in online gaming.  Had you read my entire post maybe you wouldn't have basically called me an idiot because i don't want every game out there to be solo-able.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11925

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

8/09/13 2:10:32 PM#106
Originally posted by Ticklepink
Originally posted by Bladestrom
+1 as well. The twins in gw2 ac in early days (where you had to seperate them) was a superb example of a highly strategic fight with roles that did not involve a pure trinity, e.g, kite/cc specced for dmg limitation and speed and spike to grab attention while others with dmg limitation and dps.

Perfectly possible to have interesting battle that has no Zerg or tank, we just need the developers to resist temptation to go for the old old ways and start evolving gameplay again into domething fresh.

yea...why try to bake a cake with flour and sugar and eggs..that's so old school..lets start using sand and gravel and cement!

By that logic, the Trinity is the sand and cement cake. ;) 

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

8/09/13 2:16:05 PM#107
Originally posted by Ticklepink
Originally posted by Bladestrom
+1 as well. The twins in gw2 ac in early days (where you had to seperate them) was a superb example of a highly strategic fight with roles that did not involve a pure trinity, e.g, kite/cc specced for dmg limitation and speed and spike to grab attention while others with dmg limitation and dps.

Perfectly possible to have interesting battle that has no Zerg or tank, we just need the developers to resist temptation to go for the old old ways and start evolving gameplay again into domething fresh.

yea...why try to bake a cake with flour and sugar and eggs..that's so old school..lets start using sand and gravel and cement!

You mean like this :-)

"The Diary of an Existential Baker


Diary of an existential baker 

October 3 Spoke with Camus today about my cookbook. Though he has never 
actually eaten, he gave me much encouragement. I rushed home immediately 
to begin work. How excited I am! I have begun my formula for a Denver 
omelet. 

October 4 Still working on the omelet. There have been stumbling blocks. I 
keep creating omelets one after another, like soldiers marching into the 
sea, but each one seems empty, hollow, like stone. I want to create an 
omelet that expresses the meaninglessness of existence, and instead they 
taste like cheese. I look at them on the plate, but they do not look back. 
Tried eating them with the lights off. It did not help. Malraux suggested 
paprika. 

October 6 I have realized that the traditional omelet form (eggs and 
cheese) is bourgeois. Today I tried making one out of cigarette, some 
coffee, and four tiny stones. I fed it to Malraux, who puked. I am 
encouraged, but my journey is still long. 

October 10 I find myself trying ever more radical interpretations of 
traditional dishes, in an effort to somehow express the void I feel so 
acutely. Today I tried this recipe: 

Tuna Casserole 

Ingredients: 
1 large casserole dish 

Instructions: 
Place the casserole dish in a cold oven. Place a chair facing the oven and 
sit in it forever. Think about how hungry you are. When night falls, do 
not turn on the light. 


While a void is expressed in this recipe, I am struck by its 
inapplicability to the bourgeois lifestyle. How can the eater recognize 
that the food denied him is a tuna casserole and not some other dish? I am 
becoming more and more frustrated. 

October 25 I have been forced to abandon the project of producing an 
entire cookbook. Rather, I now seek a single recipe which will, by itself, 
embody the plight of man in a world ruled by an unfeeling God, as well as 
providing the eater with at least one ingredient from each of the four 
basic food groups. To this end, I purchased six hundred pounds of 
foodstuffs from the corner grocery and locked myself in the kitchen, 
refusing to admit anyone. Afte several weeks of work, I produced a recipe 
calling for two eggs, half a cup of flour, four tons of beef, and a leek. 
While this is a start, I am afraid I still have much work ahead. 

November 15 Today I made a Black Forest gateau out of five pounds of 
cherries and a live beaver, challenging the very definition of the word 
gateau. I was very pleased. Malraux said he admired it greatly, but would 
not stay for dessert. Still, I feel that this may be my most profound 
achievement yet, and have resolved to enter it in the Betty Crocker 
Bake-Off. 

November 30 Today was the day of the Bake-Off. Alas, things did not go as 
I had hoped. During the judging, the beaver became agitated and bit Betty 
Crocker's wrist. The beaver's powerful jaws are capable of felling blue 
spruce in less than ten minutes and proved, needless to say, more than a 
match for the tender limbs of America's favorite homemaker. I only got 
third place. Moreover, I am now the subject of a rather nasty lawsuit. 

December 1 I have been gaining twenty-five pounds a week for two months, 
and I am now experiencing light tides. It is stupid to be so fat. My pain 
and ultimate solitude are still as authentic as they were when I was thin, 
but seem to impress girls far less. From now on, I will live on cigarettes 
and black coffee. "

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1325

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

8/09/13 2:17:16 PM#108


Originally posted by Ticklepink
yea...why try to bake a cake with flour and sugar and eggs..that's so old school..lets start using sand and gravel and cement!

Your posts make sense and crack me up at the same time. Friends list +1

P L A N E T S I D E 1 is up !! check PS1 forum for link to current installer.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Grixxitt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/12
Posts: 556

8/09/13 2:20:47 PM#109

I've hated the trinity since its inception.

Honestly the only game I enjoyed with dedicated roles was Everquest, and it was to a modern easymode trinity what checkers is to chess.

The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

-The MMO Forum Community

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4453

It's a combination of Nightingale Armor with the Mod Truebound Deadric Armors

8/09/13 2:33:15 PM#110
 

I don't understand this argument. In this thread. The whole point is for progress forward. The evolution of the genre. Move forward. And the only working example of a non-trinity system of a recently released game isn't really a great example of why we should get rid of it. So, in order to make the argument seem reasonable, you go back to a 15 year old game with an even more archaic system, for the best example of how to move forward? How does that equal progress? UO really is not the shining example you are looking for. In fact, it seems to me that's exactly what EQ did. Move the genre forward from UO. 

I feel that the state of the genre is such that a total and complete failure is needed so it can be reborn anew.
I'm actually hoping this new generation of 8 button MMOs will make that happen.

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

8/09/13 2:37:06 PM#111

The holy trinity essentially forces us into an archaic and rigid format with no new skills, classes or abilities.

Why is there no bard class? Because it's not part of the holy trinity

Why is there no debuff class? Because it's not part of the holy trinity

Why is there no alchemist class? Because it's not part of the holy trinity

Why are there no trading classes? Because they are not part of the holy trinity

Why are there usually no hybrid classes? Because they abuse the holy trinity

Why can't tanks deal decent damage? Because it abuses the holy trinity

Why can't dps provide healing? Because it abuses the holy trinity

Why cant healers tank? Because it abuses the holy trinity

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10429

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

8/09/13 2:43:05 PM#112


Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 
I don't understand this argument. In this thread. The whole point is for progress forward. The evolution of the genre. Move forward. And the only working example of a non-trinity system of a recently released game isn't really a great example of why we should get rid of it. So, in order to make the argument seem reasonable, you go back to a 15 year old game for the best example of how to move forward? How does that equal progress? UO really is not the shining example you are looking for. 



Sometimes progress reaches a dead end and the developers need to take a shot in the dark. If it's not entirely clear what can be done with trinity style combat beyond what's already been done, or if the next stage of trinity combat isn't a compelling step forward, then something else is tried, even if the existing examples aren't great.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Sentime

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/10/06
Posts: 277

8/09/13 2:43:19 PM#113

I always thought the unholy trinity was something they added because you couldn't interact with the environment in your typical wax museum mmo.

Ducking for cover will always be better then standing in place and getting healed with magical pixie dust.

  M1sf1t

Novice Member

Joined: 4/15/06
Posts: 1599

8/09/13 2:46:51 PM#114


Originally posted by Brenelael
It has to do with making MMOs even more solo friendly. If there is no interdependence between classes than there is no need to group at all except for raiding. This has taken MMOs even further down the road to single player games. The really sad part of it is it seems to be what the majority of today's MMO gamers want so they will continue to add mechanics that will make MMO even more single player. In today's MMOs the vast majority of the content is designed for a single player to accomplish. Isn't that the very definition of a single player game?

 

Bren



No.

The premise behind removing the "holy trinity" of classes is to make grouping feel and become more organic and easier for people to achieve in the game world and in instances/raids. This way people don't have to spend a long time just looking for players in addition to removing the need for cross-realm grouping dungeon finders to be added in game.

Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.

Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:

GW2 (+LoL and BF3)

  Kharisha

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 38

8/09/13 2:48:58 PM#115
Originally posted by KBishop

The holy trinity essentially forces us into an archaic and rigid format with no new skills, classes or abilities.

Why is there no bard class? Because it's not part of the holy trinity

Why is there no debuff class? Because it's not part of the holy trinity

Why is there no alchemist class? Because it's not part of the holy trinity

Why are there no trading classes? Because they are not part of the holy trinity

Why are there usually no hybrid classes? Because they abuse the holy trinity

Why can't tanks deal decent damage? Because it abuses the holy trinity

Why can't dps provide healing? Because it abuses the holy trinity

Why cant healers tank? Because it abuses the holy trinity

Not exactly true. In WoW tanks can deal damage sometimes more then DPS classes in Raids. All depends on the boss. Really.

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

8/09/13 2:52:31 PM#116
Originally posted by Kharisha
Originally posted by KBishop

The holy trinity essentially forces us into an archaic and rigid format with no new skills, classes or abilities.

Why is there no bard class? Because it's not part of the holy trinity

Why is there no debuff class? Because it's not part of the holy trinity

Why is there no alchemist class? Because it's not part of the holy trinity

Why are there no trading classes? Because they are not part of the holy trinity

Why are there usually no hybrid classes? Because they abuse the holy trinity

Why can't tanks deal decent damage? Because it abuses the holy trinity

Why can't dps provide healing? Because it abuses the holy trinity

Why cant healers tank? Because it abuses the holy trinity

Not exactly true. In WoW tanks can deal damage sometimes more then DPS classes in Raids. All depends on the boss. Really.

Thats mostly due to gimicks. Tanks get incredible AoE in comparison to most everyone else just to hold threat. Their dps is propped up for a short time and then typically drops. In addition, Vengeance adds a massive bonus to the dps of the tank getting hit. If you are a tank and NOT getting hit, your dps isn't going to surpass any GOOD dps by any stretch.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4453

It's a combination of Nightingale Armor with the Mod Truebound Deadric Armors

8/09/13 2:56:42 PM#117
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 
I don't understand this argument. In this thread. The whole point is for progress forward. The evolution of the genre. Move forward. And the only working example of a non-trinity system of a recently released game isn't really a great example of why we should get rid of it. So, in order to make the argument seem reasonable, you go back to a 15 year old game for the best example of how to move forward? How does that equal progress? UO really is not the shining example you are looking for. 


Sometimes progress reaches a dead end and the developers need to take a shot in the dark. If it's not entirely clear what can be done with trinity style combat beyond what's already been done, or if the next stage of trinity combat isn't a compelling step forward, then something else is tried, even if the existing examples aren't great.

 

Well, this is true, but that's not what is happening here. This isn't about what the developers are doing. I don't get any impressions from anything SOE said that indicates they are going back to an old system to revive that. They are clearly talking about using new AI that wasn't previously  available.

No, this is about the arguments people are trying to come up with and the fact is, no one can really create a solid argument as to why the trinity is broken. Since the argument itself is 100% subjective.  And the only example of a successful game that didn't use it is out dated and irrelevant to the argument for progress. Would UO's combat system taken pretty much as is/as was and paste it into EQN ? Tell me if you think that would work in Today's MMO? LOL, I seriously doubt that would fly.

I feel that the state of the genre is such that a total and complete failure is needed so it can be reborn anew.
I'm actually hoping this new generation of 8 button MMOs will make that happen.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

8/09/13 3:02:53 PM#118
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 
I don't understand this argument. In this thread. The whole point is for progress forward. The evolution of the genre. Move forward. And the only working example of a non-trinity system of a recently released game isn't really a great example of why we should get rid of it. So, in order to make the argument seem reasonable, you go back to a 15 year old game for the best example of how to move forward? How does that equal progress? UO really is not the shining example you are looking for. 


Sometimes progress reaches a dead end and the developers need to take a shot in the dark. If it's not entirely clear what can be done with trinity style combat beyond what's already been done, or if the next stage of trinity combat isn't a compelling step forward, then something else is tried, even if the existing examples aren't great.

 

Yes progress often missteps and goes down blind alleys but you know whats worse than that?

Scurrying back to hide behind the archaic but known because of a couple of missteps and not progressing at all...that's what a lot of people in this thread seem to want to do.

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

8/09/13 3:05:28 PM#119
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

No, this is about the arguments people are trying to come up with and the fact is, no one can really create a solid argument as to why the trinity is broken.

It's not that it's broken, it's that it is far too rigid.

In a holy trinity game, you need a tank, healer, and a dps. Those are the only ways you can play that game. You can play each role differently from another, but in the end a dps is a dps is a dps, a tank is a tank is a tank, and a healer is a healer is a healer. You are all doing the same thing in different ways in respect to one another. There's no room for other ways to play the game, like a class that JUST buffs everyone else, or a class that JUST debuffs the mobs, or a class that JUST makes money, because in a holy trinity designed game, there's no room for those types of classes.

If you design a game where tanking and healing or even dps isn't heavily required, then you open the game up to allowing many other classes to exist because the trinity isn't being enforced. Because now you can have room for a debuffer and a buffer when you don't need a tanker or a healer.

The better question is why we can't deviate from the trinity

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10429

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

8/09/13 3:07:05 PM#120


Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 
I don't understand this argument. In this thread. The whole point is for progress forward. The evolution of the genre. Move forward. And the only working example of a non-trinity system of a recently released game isn't really a great example of why we should get rid of it. So, in order to make the argument seem reasonable, you go back to a 15 year old game for the best example of how to move forward? How does that equal progress? UO really is not the shining example you are looking for. 
Sometimes progress reaches a dead end and the developers need to take a shot in the dark. If it's not entirely clear what can be done with trinity style combat beyond what's already been done, or if the next stage of trinity combat isn't a compelling step forward, then something else is tried, even if the existing examples aren't great.  
Well, this is true, but that's not what is happening here. This isn't about what the developers are doing. I don't get any impressions from anything SOE said that indicates they are going back to an old system to revive that. They are clearly talking about using new AI that wasn't previously  available.

No, this is about the arguments people are trying to come up with and the fact is, no one can really create a solid argument as to why the trinity is broken. Since the argument itself is 100% subjective.  And the only example of a successful game that didn't use it is out dated and irrelevant to the argument for progress. Would UO's combat system taken pretty much as is/as was and paste it into EQN ? Tell me if you think that would work in Today's MMO? LOL, I seriously doubt that would fly.




I wouldn't say the trinity is broken. It was a response to a specific environment, and it obviously worked. A lot of people are happy with it. SOE is changing the environment, and in revisiting the combat, they opted to try something other than trinity combat. I can agree with the sentiment. I don't know if I agree with their final choice though, because I haven't seen it.

We don't have a good idea of what they are going to do. It could be something like trinity combat where players are sometimes tanks, sometimes dps or sometimes healers. It could be that players are either dps or support. We just don't know.

I would say it's entirely possible that there are a lot of people who are tired of trinity combat because they've been doing it for years and it doesn't matter what a company does with trinity combat, it won't feel new, and those players will be tired of it. I would also say that new players coming into the genre may not be hip to trinity style combat because it's not what they're used to. SOE thinks there are more people who would be hip to whatever their coming up with than trinity combat.

That's about all I can say on the subject.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

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