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Elder Scrolls Online

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General Discussion  » A linear game

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  Brabbit1987

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 644

8/08/13 12:50:01 AM#21
Originally posted by Realbigdeal

It's really too bad that ESO is not gonna be a sandbox. It's what everyone wanted it to be including the fans of ESO. Only one whole area to go pvp and the rest of the world is safe. I mean wtf?? When you have faction system, there's no reason to place a safe zone in your game even inside cities or quest lobby.

When i looked at the video on E3 or what ever it was, it looked to be even more linear than i thought it would have been and it's too late to change that even if the game will release in 2014 since they're now working on porting the whole game to consoles and this will be the doom of ESO.

Game looks fine to me. It may not be a sandbox, but elder scrolls never really was a sandbox to begin with. If it is, then so is ESO. I mean they essentially have the same game mechanics. As for PVP, you are complaining that you can't pvp everywhere, why? There is a huge gigantic area to pvp in. Also why would people of the same alliance be killing each other randomly?

This whole pvp argument is used a lot, but really it doesn't make any sense to me why you would want pvp in an area, where pvp shouldn't be happening.

Now don't get me wrong, a dueling system would be nice, and would make sense. I know they are not adding that in at release, but maybe they will afterwards.

It's what everyone wanted? Why are you speaking for everyone? All I wanted was an Elder Scrolls game, and that is exactly what we are getting. You know .. it kinda makes sense, for it to be Elder scrolls since, ... that is what it is.

You where able to judge the entire game by such a small amount of "old" gameplay footage?

*sarcasm start* Matter of fact, you know what, I think you are right .. I swear I saw a leveling system. That totally makes the game linear! You know .. because the numbers go in order .. 1 through 50. Oh, and also .. I saw ... I saw a quest! That also makes the game linear because, quests are like so last year. *sarcasm end* 

  Boneserino

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 639

8/08/13 1:57:56 AM#22
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by psychosiszz

Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

you sound like you actually playd the game, yet it seems all people with handson experience in general disagree with you. The game allows for random exploration and every which way you go you will find different content, both quests and dungeons.

 

even tough TESO has those zones, the world is designed in such a way that you will not feel any linearity. atleast thats the information we got from recent playtesters. 

 

this game has more freedom then any other story based mmo, if you want a sandbox, its not here.. if you like a game with lots andlots of content, then its here. 

Doesnt matter if we have played ESO or not. Most of us have played the same type of Level Based game. The ONLY difference is that this time its skinned in the Elder Scrolls IP

Content goes from 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, 30-40, 40-50.  The content still progresses exactly the same way no matter which way you go. Left or Right its still the same.

Cant go too far ahead or you get PWND. No reason to go back as its all Grey.

There is only the "perception" of Freedom in a Level Based game. Its an illusion.

Linear is as Linear does.

As opposed to what? The "reality" of freedom in a non-level based game. If you're not seeing the illusion in those games you're just not looking behind the curtain.

All games, by definition have artificial limits. There is no true freedom in any of them. Otherwise they'd be chaotic messes. You don't think there's a lack of freedom in EQN's new "rallying call" (or whatever it's called)  feature? You start with an empty plot and eventually you end up with a castle...built brick by brick in a linear fashion as a community effort. It's a neat idea and all but I see linearity there.  

And that's a game without levels... which is another illusion. All they're really doing is disguising the leveling process by getting you to go on an ability scavenger hunt to unlock new classes...with new abilities... so you can multi-class, grow and become more powerful ... pretty damn similar to what ESO is doing except ESO has levels.  So this is linear and that isn't? Give me a frigging break.

I see progression in both: one with the numbers 1-50 and the other one without numbers...pretty damn similar character development regardless. And the reason both have progression is because if they didn't the game would be excruciatingly boring. Developers know that.

But you want us to believe that having levels is the defining characteristic of linearity?  Or that all mobs everywhere should be equally tough? And that there won't be anything you can do after playing a year that you couldn't have done on day one? How frigging boring is that?

Sorry, I ain't buying what you're selling.

I have actually never looked at it this way but I believe he is correct when states that a level based game is just a different variation of linear.   Any perceived freedom of movement is relatively limited ,by the level of you character.   As was stated, either you can't go to a certain area because it would mean your death or you don't want to return to an area because it has no value to your leveling progress.   So you are essentially led by by your character to level appropriate areas in a more or less linear fashion.   Interesting.

 

Having said that I am afraid I too just feel the need to have progression in the games I play.   I recently maxed a characeter in Fallen Earth, and I must admit, I am quite at a loss as to what to do next!  PvP doesn't  interest me.  I could craft some higher level stuff.  But without any real reason to use it ( other than PvP)  it seems rather pointless.   I finally had to admit to myself that I am a complete level whore.   Without any progression of my toon, the game sort of loses all interest for me.   I am definitely not an endgame person.   I used to think I would like sandbox gameplay but I know for sure I would not like the kind of openworld, anything goes kind of game that many here seem to crave.   I agree with Iselin, the result would be too chaotic and time consuming and probably not fun or relaxing for me, which is why I play games.  For people (mostly on the younger side I would think)  who crave this I can understand it, but I still think it would be a very difficult thing to pull off in an MMO.  Probably why we haven't seen too many attempts.

 

Yup looks like I have to admit it.  I like a little freedom to move around in my games.  (Fallen Earth was just about the perfect amount for me)  But in the end its the linear progression that I really crave.   So yeah I won't be buying any either.

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Daaken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/01/13
Posts: 160

“It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.”

8/08/13 7:24:05 AM#23
Originally posted by psychosiszz

Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

Based on many beta feedback I've read these same exact complaints.  Sure the world might not be as linear as a WoW, but it is no where near open as Skyrim.  And I understand the limitations of having such a diverse level range in each zone.  But Zenimax could add in twice or three times the amount of Points of Interests for each level range.  Skipping the storyline and wandering off the linear path that is designed should be just as rewarding as staying on it.  An example, at level 5 say there are 3 or 4 quests to complete in an area they need to up that to a minimum of 10.  10 to 15 Points of interest per level is plenty to give the illusion they need to provide, any thing less then it borders on linearity IMO.

Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.

Me: So you want something like EQN

Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.

Me: Double Facepalm.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3716

8/08/13 11:03:02 AM#24
Originally posted by Daaken
Originally posted by psychosiszz

Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

Based on many beta feedback I've read these same exact complaints.  Sure the world might not be as linear as a WoW, but it is no where near open as Skyrim.  And I understand the limitations of having such a diverse level range in each zone.  But Zenimax could add in twice or three times the amount of Points of Interests for each level range.  Skipping the storyline and wandering off the linear path that is designed should be just as rewarding as staying on it.  An example, at level 5 say there are 3 or 4 quests to complete in an area they need to up that to a minimum of 10.  10 to 15 Points of interest per level is plenty to give the illusion they need to provide, any thing less then it borders on linearity IMO.

Yeah but it couldn't possibly be as open as a single player TES game. Skyrim adapts itself to you personally by auto-tuning the mob difficulty in most cases. That is technically pretty easy to do since it's only you and your level it has to concern itself with. That would be impossible to do in an MMO...unless they just phase the shit out of the game...which would sort of defeat the purpose.

 

When I think of "linear" I think of WOW, SWTOR, Rift... games with carefully controlled and tuned quest hubs where you are heavily directed to stick around an area until the golden exclamations over the NPC's head go away... at which point you're given a bread-crumb quest that directs you to the next hub.

 

And even among those 3, SWTOR goes an extra step in linearity by limiting the environment around you and preventing you from veering off the (sometimes literally) narrow corridors where gameplay is allowed. They took linearity to a whole new level there while constantly teasing you with beautiful backdrops you could never visit.

 

Even my first MMO, Asheron's Call, which many consider to have been a good non-linear MMO, had many areas where you would get your ass handed to you in seconds if you decided to go there before you were powerful enough. The only difference there was that they didn't try to coddle you by attempting to heavily direct you... you could go to those areas by accident in some cases and that created a sense of openness and danger.

 

Make no mistake, ESO is a themepark just like 99% of big budget MMORPGs. But as themeparks go, it is nowhere near as linear as the 3 I mentioned above. They're taking steps to try to create the illusion (and it's all illusion folks) of openness by making many of their quests discoverable through exploration and minimizing the use of hubs.

 

  keithian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 2943

8/08/13 2:33:14 PM#25
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Daaken
Originally posted by psychosiszz

Sorry but this game is extremely linear. There is a illusion of freedom, but thats all it is. Its still a themepark game with no sandbox features. It also uses a channel system for zones... which i despise instancing is just plain awful.

I hate how linear MMO's make zones into simple stepping stones for getting to max level and the player never ventures there again. Makes the world feel fake. Elder scrolls was all about a living breathing world I see none of that here.

Based on many beta feedback I've read these same exact complaints.  Sure the world might not be as linear as a WoW, but it is no where near open as Skyrim.  And I understand the limitations of having such a diverse level range in each zone.  But Zenimax could add in twice or three times the amount of Points of Interests for each level range.  Skipping the storyline and wandering off the linear path that is designed should be just as rewarding as staying on it.  An example, at level 5 say there are 3 or 4 quests to complete in an area they need to up that to a minimum of 10.  10 to 15 Points of interest per level is plenty to give the illusion they need to provide, any thing less then it borders on linearity IMO.

Yeah but it couldn't possibly be as open as a single player TES game. Skyrim adapts itself to you personally by auto-tuning the mob difficulty in most cases. That is technically pretty easy to do since it's only you and your level it has to concern itself with. That would be impossible to do in an MMO...unless they just phase the shit out of the game...which would sort of defeat the purpose.

 

When I think of "linear" I think of WOW, SWTOR, Rift... games with carefully controlled and tuned quest hubs where you are heavily directed to stick around an area until the golden exclamations over the NPC's head go away... at which point you're given a bread-crumb quest that directs you to the next hub.

 

And even among those 3, SWTOR goes an extra step in linearity by limiting the environment around you and preventing you from veering off the (sometimes literally) narrow corridors where gameplay is allowed. They took linearity to a whole new level there while constantly teasing you with beautiful backdrops you could never visit.

 

Even my first MMO, Asheron's Call, which many consider to have been a good non-linear MMO, had many areas where you would get your ass handed to you in seconds if you decided to go there before you were powerful enough. The only difference there was that they didn't try to coddle you by attempting to heavily direct you... you could go to those areas by accident in some cases and that created a sense of openness and danger.

 

Make no mistake, ESO is a themepark just like 99% of big budget MMORPGs. But as themeparks go, it is nowhere near as linear as the 3 I mentioned above. They're taking steps to try to create the illusion (and it's all illusion folks) of openness by making many of their quests discoverable through exploration and minimizing the use of hubs.

 

I actually agree with both of you. I think all games feel more open when you can get to end level with multiple paths, I agree what was said about TOR, I agree about the illusion of exploration, but in the end, we just arn't sure yet just how linear or less linear it really is except for some feedback either from leaked beta or from the 2 hour impressions.  I didn't really understand just how linear TOR felt until I got out of the start zones and then said to myself around level 20, I don't think I could possibly play through that again if it was pretty much the same stuff. It does appear that ESO is trying to feel less linear than competing games due to that exploration focus, but we will know just by how much hopefully soon.

There Is Always Hope!

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1438

8/08/13 5:15:31 PM#26

Lol. Even in here we do have discussion and comparsion to EQN. Why?

In all honestly, there is no fucking reason, why different games should be different. It is the damn purpose of it, isn't it?

And another point. Yeah.. sandbox there, sandbox here. Hell, i am a old school sandbox player. BUT, i game have not to be a sandbox to be good. And the exact same thing is about linearity.. whats wrong with it? It is different, it does have some flaws, but nevertheless advantages, too.

I ask you that. What is a story? YES.. it is fucking linear. So for storytelling purposes you need some linearity.

Why oh why.. can a game not be good for what it is. And why should we compare it to another game, even another concept?

And in all honestly.. i am a old school Elder Scroll Player.. and although it will be often considered as sandboxish, it isn't that much. It does have a story.. different ones even.. and you progress along the way. You do have options, but finally you will come to an end.. therefore it is linear. A sandbox game in comparsion would be a game with no end at all.

So please stop that discussion.. especially it isn't worth it. Games can be different. And games can be good independent of beeing a sandbox or a themepark, being linear or not. As long as a game does that well, what it is supposed to be, it will be a satisfying experience.

  keithian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 2943

8/08/13 5:26:17 PM#27
Originally posted by Apraxis

Lol. Even in here we do have discussion and comparsion to EQN. Why?

In all honestly, there is no fucking reason, why different games should be different. It is the damn purpose of it, isn't it?

And another point. Yeah.. sandbox there, sandbox here. Hell, i am a old school sandbox player. BUT, i game have not to be a sandbox to be good. And the exact same thing is about linearity.. whats wrong with it? It is different, it does have some flaws, but nevertheless advantages, too.

I ask you that. What is a story? YES.. it is fucking linear. So for storytelling purposes you need some linearity.

Why oh why.. can a game not be good for what it is. And why should we compare it to another game, even another concept?

And in all honestly.. i am a old school Elder Scroll Player.. and although it will be often considered as sandboxish, it isn't that much. It does have a story.. different ones even.. and you progress along the way. You do have options, but finally you will come to an end.. therefore it is linear. A sandbox game in comparsion would be a game with no end at all.

So please stop that discussion.. especially it isn't worth it. Games can be different. And games can be good independent of beeing a sandbox or a themepark, being linear or not. As long as a game does that well, what it is supposed to be, it will be a satisfying experience.

well said :-)

There Is Always Hope!

  Brabbit1987

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 644

8/08/13 5:36:47 PM#28
Originally posted by Apraxis

Lol. Even in here we do have discussion and comparsion to EQN. Why?

In all honestly, there is no fucking reason, why different games should be different. It is the damn purpose of it, isn't it?

And another point. Yeah.. sandbox there, sandbox here. Hell, i am a old school sandbox player. BUT, i game have not to be a sandbox to be good. And the exact same thing is about linearity.. whats wrong with it? It is different, it does have some flaws, but nevertheless advantages, too.

I ask you that. What is a story? YES.. it is fucking linear. So for storytelling purposes you need some linearity.

Why oh why.. can a game not be good for what it is. And why should we compare it to another game, even another concept?

And in all honestly.. i am a old school Elder Scroll Player.. and although it will be often considered as sandboxish, it isn't that much. It does have a story.. different ones even.. and you progress along the way. You do have options, but finally you will come to an end.. therefore it is linear. A sandbox game in comparsion would be a game with no end at all.

So please stop that discussion.. especially it isn't worth it. Games can be different. And games can be good independent of beeing a sandbox or a themepark, being linear or not. As long as a game does that well, what it is supposed to be, it will be a satisfying experience.

Having a beginning and an end doesn't make something linear. Linear has to do with going in a straight line. Going in order. Example: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ,... 10 , these numbers always remain the same and in the same order.

Non linear would be something like 1, 8, 4, 6, 2, 3, 9, 5, 7, 10 with those numbers being able to be switched around at any point in random order. There is no specific order you have to go in.

ESO has plenty of non linear gameplay elements. It also has some linear elements. However, every game does. Some are more linear and some are less linear. ESO is by far one the least linear mmos. You don't have to do any of the quests in any specific order other then linked quests like for the main story.

If anyone calls that linear, they really need to look up the definition.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1438

8/08/13 6:03:35 PM#29
Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.
  Brabbit1987

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 644

8/08/13 6:11:03 PM#30
Originally posted by Apraxis
Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.

ROFL, "It is just not a straight line" is the exact opposite of the definition of linear.

Having variance DOES make it non linear.

I am not trying to be offensive, but really, look up the definition and you will see what I am talking about.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1438

8/08/13 6:26:08 PM#31

Ok. Again.

ESO, or any themepark:

straigth line: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,

with some variance.. but nevertheless linear:

0.8, 1.9, 3.3, 3.4, 4.6

and what does not happen in a themepark

1, -1, 3, 7, -10,

You progress along a linear path with some variance.. it is nevertheless linear.

 

But to end the discussion. You are right. There is no linearity. Nowhere

  Realbigdeal

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/08
Posts: 1647

8/08/13 7:25:33 PM#32
The sad thing is EQN is more like a ESO than ESO will ever be

C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif

  Whiskey_Sam

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/12
Posts: 272

Nemo me impune lacessit.

8/08/13 8:20:29 PM#33
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Apraxis
Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.

ROFL, "It is just not a straight line" is the exact opposite of the definition of linear.

Having variance DOES make it non linear.

I am not trying to be offensive, but really, look up the definition and you will see what I am talking about.

You're talking past each other.  Doing something 1, 7, 3, 6, 2, 10, 4, 9, 8, 5 is not linear.  But if I can't do 11-20 before I do 1-10, and if that scale applies such that I have to do the 10s then 20s, 30s, 40s in order, it is broadly linear without being perfectly linear.  If I can't start with 40 but have to do something first, there is some linearity to it.

___________________________
Have flask; will travel.

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5106

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

8/08/13 8:38:04 PM#34
Originally posted by keithian
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
 

Doesnt matter if we have played ESO or not. Most of us have played the same type of Level Based game. The ONLY difference is that this time its skinned in the Elder Scrolls IP

Content goes from 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, 30-40, 40-50.  The content still progresses exactly the same way no matter which way you go. Left or Right its still the same.

Cant go too far ahead or you get PWND. No reason to go back as its all Grey.

There is only the "perception" of Freedom in a Level Based game. Its an illusion.

Linear is as Linear does.

Can you please give me an example of a game that has thrived by doing this in the last 10 years? I actually prefer a level sort of feel as long as the path in those general zones feel open for exploration. I suspect others will feel the same. I would much rather have this then explore everywhere just to have everything level up with you like Oblivion did. On top of that, if you can explore just about everywhere at level 50 what difference does it make.

being forced to specific areas within level brackets is an old mechanic that needs to evolve. I dont want to be forced to hit level cap to "begin" the real game or to see the goodies of full exploration. I should be able to explore the entire game at my own risk without being limited to " lower lvl areas wont give you shit" and "higher level area mobs will one shot you and wont give you shit".

My opinion, GW2 did great with scaled down. Zenimax should either use that system, or the system from SKyrim, or just dont have levels. THey have 3 options, i hope they dont pick a totally useless forth option that is in every other generic mmo.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  User Deleted
8/09/13 10:28:37 AM#35

Will I be required to be level 30 to do the level 30 quests?

Will I be locked out of areas until I complete a quest chain, which will also be level locked?

 

 

This to me is what linear questing is about. Holds my hand level by level to ensure I not only do all the side crap but also so that I never get into the situation where im in a zone too hard for me.

 

I know people, as usual, are latching onto buzzwords and trying to say a game sucks because it is "insert negative buzzword" but most of what I see here is the same thing people do attaching positive buzzwords to games, like calling games sandbox, when they just pick and choose what definition they want in order to fit their cheerleading and or trashing of the game.

 

Obviously we all have to wait for more info, but I highly doubt that im going to be locked in a level prison, and then once I reach that level marker ill have to finish a storyline chain, before im allowed to exit into the next level prison.  Of course people have and are butchering what linear questing is for their own agenda, to be expected, but I really find it hard to believe that this game is going to be that big of a stretch from TES to where they section off content until you pass the linear checkpoints.

Bottom line for me is that as long as this game lives up to the next installment of TES ill be fine with it, I didn't think skyrim was shit as a lot of derp trolls do (because they heard it on youtube) and I don't think this game will be shit.

I just think that most will expect this game to fill their empty life voids for the next decade without a hitch, and that first bump in the road will turn them to haters frothing at the mouth on a crusade to save all the idiots (in their eyes) who don't see the game as the worst game ever created blah blah blah. Hence it will be dubbed a failure no matter what, just like every game except wow.

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8544

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

 
OP  8/09/13 12:35:09 PM#36
Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Apraxis
Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.

ROFL, "It is just not a straight line" is the exact opposite of the definition of linear.

Having variance DOES make it non linear.

I am not trying to be offensive, but really, look up the definition and you will see what I am talking about.

You're talking past each other.  Doing something 1, 7, 3, 6, 2, 10, 4, 9, 8, 5 is not linear.  But if I can't do 11-20 before I do 1-10, and if that scale applies such that I have to do the 10s then 20s, 30s, 40s in order, it is broadly linear without being perfectly linear.  If I can't start with 40 but have to do something first, there is some linearity to it.

There is allways some linearity,  or else it would be chaos...

in TESO you can play whatever parts of 1 to 10 that you like, you van also start with 19 but that would require help of your friends as you would surely die soloing...

 

so far the only requirements to advance are :

 

-somehow finishing the starter area, which can be as simple as getting to the ferryman, we dont know what is required because of the NDA

- then there is the requirement of reaching level 10 to get access to Cyrodiil and the AvA PvP and lots of PvE in those zones

- And then there is the requirement of somehow reaching level 50 to get access to the oher alliances homegrounds..

 

thats not much linearity if you ask me?

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations)
Currently playing : The Elder Scrolls Online and Wildstar

  Whiskey_Sam

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/12
Posts: 272

Nemo me impune lacessit.

8/09/13 2:10:10 PM#37
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Apraxis
Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.

ROFL, "It is just not a straight line" is the exact opposite of the definition of linear.

Having variance DOES make it non linear.

I am not trying to be offensive, but really, look up the definition and you will see what I am talking about.

You're talking past each other.  Doing something 1, 7, 3, 6, 2, 10, 4, 9, 8, 5 is not linear.  But if I can't do 11-20 before I do 1-10, and if that scale applies such that I have to do the 10s then 20s, 30s, 40s in order, it is broadly linear without being perfectly linear.  If I can't start with 40 but have to do something first, there is some linearity to it.

There is allways some linearity,  or else it would be chaos...

in TESO you can play whatever parts of 1 to 10 that you like, you van also start with 19 but that would require help of your friends as you would surely die soloing...

 

so far the only requirements to advance are :

 

-somehow finishing the starter area, which can be as simple as getting to the ferryman, we dont know what is required because of the NDA

- then there is the requirement of reaching level 10 to get access to Cyrodiil and the AvA PvP and lots of PvE in those zones

- And then there is the requirement of somehow reaching level 50 to get access to the oher alliances homegrounds..

 

thats not much linearity if you ask me?

That's kind of the point.  If they scale the combat to where you as a level 1 player are going to instantly be dead trying to take on a level 19 creature, no you are not literally barred from going to the level 19 area, but you are effectively barred from doing so.  The end result is the same.  You are going to be funneled into level appropriate areas.  I agree that's not a rigid linearity, but it is some.  As I understood Brabbit, the argument put forward was that because you had some freedom to a degree and didn't have to do things in a 1,2,3,4,5,6 order there was no linearity at all.  That's where I disagreed, and it looks like you don't agree with that either.

___________________________
Have flask; will travel.

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8544

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

 
OP  8/09/13 2:56:43 PM#38
Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Apraxis
Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.

ROFL, "It is just not a straight line" is the exact opposite of the definition of linear.

Having variance DOES make it non linear.

I am not trying to be offensive, but really, look up the definition and you will see what I am talking about.

You're talking past each other.  Doing something 1, 7, 3, 6, 2, 10, 4, 9, 8, 5 is not linear.  But if I can't do 11-20 before I do 1-10, and if that scale applies such that I have to do the 10s then 20s, 30s, 40s in order, it is broadly linear without being perfectly linear.  If I can't start with 40 but have to do something first, there is some linearity to it.

There is allways some linearity,  or else it would be chaos...

in TESO you can play whatever parts of 1 to 10 that you like, you van also start with 19 but that would require help of your friends as you would surely die soloing...

 

so far the only requirements to advance are :

 

-somehow finishing the starter area, which can be as simple as getting to the ferryman, we dont know what is required because of the NDA

- then there is the requirement of reaching level 10 to get access to Cyrodiil and the AvA PvP and lots of PvE in those zones

- And then there is the requirement of somehow reaching level 50 to get access to the oher alliances homegrounds..

 

thats not much linearity if you ask me?

That's kind of the point.  If they scale the combat to where you as a level 1 player are going to instantly be dead trying to take on a level 19 creature, no you are not literally barred from going to the level 19 area, but you are effectively barred from doing so.  

And thats one of the things i truely like about MMOs, it gives me that feeling of progression.. If i come back alone about 17 levels later, i will have a fighting chance...

 

and its even better if at early levels i carefully sneaked past the 19 just to find a treasure chest or something else

 

anyway, dividing a whole world into level zones is a requirement for progression which is very very important in my RPG book... If i could fight every mob in the game at level 1, what would be the use of getting new skills and abilities for my chatcter?

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations)
Currently playing : The Elder Scrolls Online and Wildstar

  Brabbit1987

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 644

8/09/13 9:00:55 PM#39
Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Apraxis
Ok.. although i do think it doesn't matter. Any themepark, any game with strong vertical progression is inherently linear. The same is true for the beginning/end example... to have some variance does not make it non linear. It is just not a straight line.

ROFL, "It is just not a straight line" is the exact opposite of the definition of linear.

Having variance DOES make it non linear.

I am not trying to be offensive, but really, look up the definition and you will see what I am talking about.

You're talking past each other.  Doing something 1, 7, 3, 6, 2, 10, 4, 9, 8, 5 is not linear.  But if I can't do 11-20 before I do 1-10, and if that scale applies such that I have to do the 10s then 20s, 30s, 40s in order, it is broadly linear without being perfectly linear.  If I can't start with 40 but have to do something first, there is some linearity to it.

There is allways some linearity,  or else it would be chaos...

in TESO you can play whatever parts of 1 to 10 that you like, you van also start with 19 but that would require help of your friends as you would surely die soloing...

 

so far the only requirements to advance are :

 

-somehow finishing the starter area, which can be as simple as getting to the ferryman, we dont know what is required because of the NDA

- then there is the requirement of reaching level 10 to get access to Cyrodiil and the AvA PvP and lots of PvE in those zones

- And then there is the requirement of somehow reaching level 50 to get access to the oher alliances homegrounds..

 

thats not much linearity if you ask me?

That's kind of the point.  If they scale the combat to where you as a level 1 player are going to instantly be dead trying to take on a level 19 creature, no you are not literally barred from going to the level 19 area, but you are effectively barred from doing so.  The end result is the same.  You are going to be funneled into level appropriate areas.  I agree that's not a rigid linearity, but it is some.  As I understood Brabbit, the argument put forward was that because you had some freedom to a degree and didn't have to do things in a 1,2,3,4,5,6 order there was no linearity at all.  That's where I disagreed, and it looks like you don't agree with that either.

Actually, you misunderstood me. What I am saying is the ENTIRE game isn't linear. It would be wrong to call it such. I never said their was no linear portions of the game.

Let's take a story for example since a non linear story can be applied in the same manner and it should fit my explanation really well.

A non linear story doesn't follow the same order of events as you would normally see in a story. However, you still have to follow the order the author set for you in order for it to make sense. Even though you still are technically following an order, and you can only complete the book starting from the beginning to the end, it's still considered non linear do to the way the book is laid out. The book still obviously has linear portions.

No matter how far you stray from the path, you still will have to meet back up to end up in the same place.

So again, my point is ESO, as a whole, is not linear. That is not saying there is no linear portions of the game. Of course there are. You would not be able to tell a story if it was entirely non linear.

  Megilindir

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 85

8/10/13 1:18:13 PM#40

There is but one factor that makes a game "linear" for me,

Hubs.

If the game has instanced zones then no matter what and in any condition is not a sandbox game (apart from EVE online where you can travel hubs without corridors). 

Ah yes.And levels.

The game is a themepark.A linear one and probably a bad one ( dat clunky combat geezuz) )

I just so badly want those games to be the sandpark games we always want to play and dream of but it seems they will never be.

beLIEve

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