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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Come and play a game with totally advanced AI and frustrating gameplay!

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45 posts found
  Apraxis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1509

8/09/13 6:11:59 AM#21
Originally posted by PAL-18

AI which does not do mistakes is not really "advanced"

Its actually really easy to program something like "If xxx then 1" 

 

That is somewhat the point. Advanced AI does not mean to make perfekt decisions, especially not in a game. But we do expect reasonalbe decisions, and maybe different decisions from different mobs. So that a group does not move like One Person, or like the Borgs, they should act like a group of persona, which act on its own. And that is simple stuff, like one starting to move and the other just follows shortly after, and not at the exact same time. And another important aspect are reasonable wrong decisions... what we humans do all the time.. AI not so much. Because either it does nothing, or it does the perfect decision.

And for the general audience: About what do we talk?

Now: You have one simple AI script. And all mobs all over the world use this script. Everything act exactly the same.

Plan:

- for every single mob his own AI script. Now you can modify either every single script, or you create groups of Behaivors.

- layered AI, hierarchical structur. General commands Officer. Officer commands Soldier. And everyone has his own agenda.. and most problably as higher up in the hierarchy as more "handcrafted" the AI script could be, as more triggers, as more actions he has. and as more modified he is to the base AI script.

So.. all that is not really Advanced AI.. but in comparsion what we have in games, and not only in MMOs, it is a huge step and advanced. As Einstein said.. everything is relative.

 

  Gibbonici

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/24/07
Posts: 474

8/09/13 6:16:34 AM#22
Originally posted by Mothanos

People will quit asap with advanced AI.
If carebears expect this then join a few pvp matches na dlets see how you love advanced AI.

Its so overated, with no healers you are going to die so much that the any game that provides this advanced AI will be as frustrated as sucking at PvP.
Unless you like to die alot and spend all your cash to repair your gear.

Did no care to vote, stupid poll if you ask me.
maybe add challeging AI ? not faceroll but inbetween ?

PvP is only partly about intelligent play. It's as much about super-stacked builds with the strongest kill powers as it is about in-the-moment player skill, and perhaps more so. I love a bit of PvP but I don't have any allusions about it being particularly skill-based, even when I win.

 

PvE mobs with decent AI wouldn't be min-maxed monsters built purely to kill, they'd be built to be interesting and rounded enemies with strengths and weaknesses. You know, balanced.

 

You're right about the poll though, I didn't vote either.

  Divona

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/11
Posts: 168

8/09/13 6:21:19 AM#23

Advance AI where it can grief players, camp players at respawn point 24/7, and insult back through chat? Is this included the one that find players on social media and email, then start cyber bully such players until the end of time? Please don't tell me it's also the one that steal players game accounts, use the same password through their bank account and transfer all the money out as well?

*shake fist @ Advance AI*

  zwei2

Novice Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 337

 
OP  8/09/13 6:28:00 AM#24
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by PAL-18

AI which does not do mistakes is not really "advanced"

Its actually really easy to program something like "If xxx then 1" 

 

That is somewhat the point. Advanced AI does not mean to make perfekt decisions, especially not in a game. But we do expect reasonalbe decisions, and maybe different decisions from different mobs. So that a group does not move like One Person, or like the Borgs, they should act like a group of persona, which act on its own. And that is simple stuff, like one starting to move and the other just follows shortly after, and not at the exact same time. And another important aspect are reasonable wrong decisions... what we humans do all the time.. AI not so much. Because either it does nothing, or it does the perfect decision.

And for the general audience: About what do we talk?

Now: You have one simple AI script. And all mobs all over the world use this script. Everything act exactly the same.

Plan:

- for every single mob his own AI script. Now you can modify either every single script, or you create groups of Behaivors.

- layered AI, hierarchical structur. General commands Officer. Officer commands Soldier. And everyone has his own agenda.. and most problably as higher up in the hierarchy as more "handcrafted" the AI script could be, as more triggers, as more actions he has. and as more modified he is to the base AI script.

So.. all that is not really Advanced AI.. but in comparsion what we have in games, and not only in MMOs, it is a huge step and advanced. As Einstein said.. everything is relative.

 

There are a few things about this.

 

One : as per another poster's partial post

"A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now"

No matter how intricate the AI is, it is still a finite number of outcomes. If the players know how to react to the actions taken by the AI, it will just become stale AI.

 

Two: About everyone has his own agenda

Humans are known to take the best course of action for a certain event. Why not AI have it too?

For example, instead of the soldiers listening to the general to enter the battlefield and do random stuff, and just get kill (by any means) simply by going into the battlefield, the soldiers will have a revolt, overturn the command, and zerg as one, killling all the solo players. And since the revolt is much more likely to make the soldiers win, they will select to do this EVERYTIME, which will not be fun to the players at all.

 

Third: In games yes. In MMO not likely. Most games have a finite ending to attend, as well as solo gameplay, thus easier to compile into a complete game for players to enjoy.

MMOs... if players can complain about graphics too powerful for computer to handle, the players will sure complain about a game with too much AI coding that will take up too much resources and stuff.

 

Lastly: If players really wants advanced AI, they should just play PVP where the players will really meet real intelligent players that will actually react intelligently to actions.

Got silenced? Get out of attack range until silence is over, or use something/a skill to purify. Allies get ganked? Attack the ganker, rather than trashing random other enemies.

The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

  Mr.Kujo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 392

“Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.”

8/09/13 6:29:13 AM#25

There was a prototype of a game with intelligent AI like this. I don't remember if it was public, but I beta tested it.

Since it was suppose to be intelligent, mobs did everything to survive. You can't even start to imagine how annoying can a game be, if enemy really does everything not to die...

If there were to many players ganking mobs, they called reinforcements... Mobs kept retreating, running, hiding, doing suprise attacks, backstabbing... this shiet was so frustrating it made me want to throw PC out the window.

Mobs have to do stupid things, otherwise there would be no game. It's the same deal with war games. If it was intelligent, no enemy would ever get out of hiding spot, and you would fight one enemy for hours until someone makes mistake like in real war.

You really have no idea what you are asking for...

  zwei2

Novice Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 337

 
OP  8/09/13 6:32:04 AM#26
Originally posted by kuujo

There was a prototype of a game with intelligent AI like this. I don't remember if it was public, but I beta tested it.

Since it was suppose to be intelligent, mobs did everything to survive. You can't even start to imagine how annoying can a game be, if enemy really does everything not to die...

If there were to many players ganking mobs, they called reinforcements... Mobs kept retreating, running, hiding, doing suprise attacks, backstabbing... this shiet was so frustrating it made me want to throw PC out the window.

Mobs have to do stupid things, otherwise there would be no game. It's the same deal with war games. If it was intelligent, no enemy would ever get out of hiding spot, and you would fight one enemy for hours until someone makes mistake like in real war.

You really have no idea what you are asking for...

The thing is, this is what some players think they want... you should google up the game and introduce it to those players...

The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

  Mothanos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 1885

8/09/13 6:38:45 AM#27

Lets take a step back an analyze Advanced AI and break it down to simple numbers.

Orc number one has high AI - rated 1 lowest
Orc number two has high AI - rated 10 highest

noob player has low skill and can beat orc number one
noob player has low skill and CANT beat orc number two


Otherwise Advanced AI is just faceroll.
If noobs can beat Orc Number two then its not advanced AI is it ?
Compare it to playerskill and orc AI as this is what SOE means right ?

So noob players cant defeat the best AI as they just lack the skill.
The pro players have huge difficulty with Orc number two as they match their own skill level.

This means many noobs quit the game as its way to hard.
Is SOE willing to let at least 50% of the players quit with to hard AI ?

offcourse not, so what will happen is faceroll pve contend.
I would be amazed if they make AI advanced enough to kick noob to the ground.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6227

8/09/13 6:41:53 AM#28
Originally posted by Mothanos

Lets take a step back an analyze Advanced AI and break it down to simple numbers.

Orc number one has high AI - rated 1 lowest
Orc number two has high AI - rated 10 highest

noob player has low skill and can beat orc number one
noob player has low skill and CANT beat orc number two


Otherwise Advanced AI is just faceroll.
If noobs can beat Orc Number two then its not advanced AI is it ?
Compare it to playerskill and orc AI as this is what SOE means right ?

So noob players cant defeat the best AI as they just lack the skill.
The pro players have huge difficulty with Orc number two as they match their own skill level.

This means many noobs quit the game as its way to hard.
Is SOE willing to let at least 50% of the players quit with to hard AI ?

offcourse not, so what will happen is faceroll pve contend.
I would be amazed if they make AI advanced enough to kick noob to the ground.

 

no you can progress by defeating them. But doesnt mean you are going to win 100% of the time. same thing as in PvP. you can progress even if not all that good, but you will still lose half the time.

  Apraxis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1509

8/09/13 6:49:03 AM#29
Originally posted by zwei2
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by PAL-18

AI which does not do mistakes is not really "advanced"

Its actually really easy to program something like "If xxx then 1" 

 

That is somewhat the point. Advanced AI does not mean to make perfekt decisions, especially not in a game. But we do expect reasonalbe decisions, and maybe different decisions from different mobs. So that a group does not move like One Person, or like the Borgs, they should act like a group of persona, which act on its own. And that is simple stuff, like one starting to move and the other just follows shortly after, and not at the exact same time. And another important aspect are reasonable wrong decisions... what we humans do all the time.. AI not so much. Because either it does nothing, or it does the perfect decision.

And for the general audience: About what do we talk?

Now: You have one simple AI script. And all mobs all over the world use this script. Everything act exactly the same.

Plan:

- for every single mob his own AI script. Now you can modify either every single script, or you create groups of Behaivors.

- layered AI, hierarchical structur. General commands Officer. Officer commands Soldier. And everyone has his own agenda.. and most problably as higher up in the hierarchy as more "handcrafted" the AI script could be, as more triggers, as more actions he has. and as more modified he is to the base AI script.

So.. all that is not really Advanced AI.. but in comparsion what we have in games, and not only in MMOs, it is a huge step and advanced. As Einstein said.. everything is relative.

 

There are a few things about this.

 

One : as per another poster's partial post

"A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now"

No matter how intricate the AI is, it is still a finite number of outcomes. If the players know how to react to the actions taken by the AI, it will just become stale AI.

 Yes.. there will be a finite number of actions. But if any Mob has his own agenda, not every mob will pick the exact same action. And therefore it isn't as predictable. The target is not to make everytime a perfect decision.

Two: About everyone has his own agenda

Humans are known to take the best course of action for a certain event. Why not AI have it too?

No. Really not. Humans do exactly not take the best course any time. We do decide anytime with different factors in mind, and with a different aim in mind, and we do not have at all time all information. So basicly our decisions are not the "best" for a certain event. And therefore your AI, if it should be believable and reasonable, don't do the "best" decision everytime, too.

For example, instead of the soldiers listening to the general to enter the battlefield and do random stuff, and just get kill (by any means) simply by going into the battlefield, the soldiers will have a revolt, overturn the command, and zerg as one, killling all the solo players. And since the revolt is much more likely to make the soldiers win, they will select to do this EVERYTIME, which will not be fun to the players at all.

 

Third: In games yes. In MMO not likely. Most games have a finite ending to attend, as well as solo gameplay, thus easier to compile into a complete game for players to enjoy.

MMOs... if players can complain about graphics too powerful for computer to handle, the players will sure complain about a game with too much AI coding that will take up too much resources and stuff.

 The resource and performance problem is a issue. No question. But performance increased of the last 30 years somewhat. And we seriously don't talk about human like AIs. Broken down it is still rather simple scripts.

Lastly: If players really wants advanced AI, they should just play PVP where the players will really meet real intelligent players that will actually react intelligently to actions.

Got silenced? Get out of attack range until silence is over, or use something/a skill to purify. Allies get ganked? Attack the ganker, rather than trashing random other enemies.

Yeah. But mobs don't insult you afterwards as a noob. ;) And some players do prefer this. And you can create as many or as less mobs as required or are usefull for some situations. In pvp you have to deal with what is available, or with a limited scenario (like battlefield limited to 5vs5 and only starts when everyone is available)

And more importantly, you can tell a story with mobs, they can act within your plan as a storyteller.. that is rather hard and expensive to accomplish with real players.

 

  zwei2

Novice Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 337

 
OP  8/09/13 6:55:08 AM#30
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by zwei2
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by PAL-18

AI which does not do mistakes is not really "advanced"

Its actually really easy to program something like "If xxx then 1" 

 

That is somewhat the point. Advanced AI does not mean to make perfekt decisions, especially not in a game. But we do expect reasonalbe decisions, and maybe different decisions from different mobs. So that a group does not move like One Person, or like the Borgs, they should act like a group of persona, which act on its own. And that is simple stuff, like one starting to move and the other just follows shortly after, and not at the exact same time. And another important aspect are reasonable wrong decisions... what we humans do all the time.. AI not so much. Because either it does nothing, or it does the perfect decision.

And for the general audience: About what do we talk?

Now: You have one simple AI script. And all mobs all over the world use this script. Everything act exactly the same.

Plan:

- for every single mob his own AI script. Now you can modify either every single script, or you create groups of Behaivors.

- layered AI, hierarchical structur. General commands Officer. Officer commands Soldier. And everyone has his own agenda.. and most problably as higher up in the hierarchy as more "handcrafted" the AI script could be, as more triggers, as more actions he has. and as more modified he is to the base AI script.

So.. all that is not really Advanced AI.. but in comparsion what we have in games, and not only in MMOs, it is a huge step and advanced. As Einstein said.. everything is relative.

 

There are a few things about this.

 

One : as per another poster's partial post

"A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now"

No matter how intricate the AI is, it is still a finite number of outcomes. If the players know how to react to the actions taken by the AI, it will just become stale AI.

 Yes.. there will be a finite number of actions. But if any Mob has his own agenda, not every mob will pick the exact same action. And therefore it isn't as predictable. The target is not to make everytime a perfect decision.

Two: About everyone has his own agenda

Humans are known to take the best course of action for a certain event. Why not AI have it too?

No. Really not. Humans do exactly not take the best course any time. We do decide anytime with different factors in mind, and with a different aim in mind, and we do not have at all time all information. So basicly our decisions are not the "best" for a certain event. And therefore your AI, if it should be believable and reasonable, don't do the "best" decision everytime, too.

For example, instead of the soldiers listening to the general to enter the battlefield and do random stuff, and just get kill (by any means) simply by going into the battlefield, the soldiers will have a revolt, overturn the command, and zerg as one, killling all the solo players. And since the revolt is much more likely to make the soldiers win, they will select to do this EVERYTIME, which will not be fun to the players at all.

 

Third: In games yes. In MMO not likely. Most games have a finite ending to attend, as well as solo gameplay, thus easier to compile into a complete game for players to enjoy.

MMOs... if players can complain about graphics too powerful for computer to handle, the players will sure complain about a game with too much AI coding that will take up too much resources and stuff.

 The resource and performance problem is a issue. No question. But performance increased of the last 30 years somewhat. And we seriously don't talk about human like AIs. Broken down it is still rather simple scripts.

Lastly: If players really wants advanced AI, they should just play PVP where the players will really meet real intelligent players that will actually react intelligently to actions.

Got silenced? Get out of attack range until silence is over, or use something/a skill to purify. Allies get ganked? Attack the ganker, rather than trashing random other enemies.

Yeah. But mobs don't insult you afterwards as a noob. ;) And some players do prefer this. And you can create as many or as less mobs as required or are usefull for some situations. In pvp you have to deal with what is available, or with a limited scenario (like battlefield limited to 5vs5 and only starts when everyone is available)

And more importantly, you can tell a story with mobs, they can act within your plan as a storyteller.. that is rather hard and expensive to accomplish with real players.

 

Fair enough. About the 1st point, the mob has to have actions that the players can react according. If "teleport away until fully healed and teleport back to trash the player" is one of the choice, it will make the players not happy. Thus resulting in really a set of plausible, finite actions.

 

Though about your last point, just imagine getting random guildmates to get up a roleplay event in the server, only to have one dork to crash it lol

The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

  PAL-18

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/13
Posts: 740

8/09/13 7:29:33 AM#31
Originally posted by zwei2 

Fair enough. About the 1st point, the mob has to have actions that the players can react according. If "teleport away until fully healed and teleport back to trash the player" is one of the choice, it will make the players not happy. Thus resulting in really a set of plausible, finite actions.

 

Though about your last point, just imagine getting random guildmates to get up a roleplay event in the server, only to have one dork to crash it lol

 

How to fight against "advanced" AI.

http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Demogorgon

In real time combat things like boots of speed ,remember NPCs should be able to wear those too.

Anyways if AI is advanced then the gameplay must be too.

 

So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  Abuz0r

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/03/12
Posts: 315

8/09/13 7:39:56 AM#32

Good post, dumb poll............   A simple YES/NO as the options would have been better.

It annoys me when a mob will always aim for the tank, never attack anyone else except for AOE, and everyone gets to give him a rectal exam and he doesn't even care.

 

  Mr.Kujo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 392

“Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.”

8/09/13 7:39:57 AM#33

Originally posted by zwei2

Originally posted by kuujo

There was a prototype of a game with intelligent AI like this. I don't remember if it was public, but I beta tested it.

Since it was suppose to be intelligent, mobs did everything to survive. You can't even start to imagine how annoying can a game be, if enemy really does everything not to die...

If there were to many players ganking mobs, they called reinforcements... Mobs kept retreating, running, hiding, doing suprise attacks, backstabbing... this shiet was so frustrating it made me want to throw PC out the window.

Mobs have to do stupid things, otherwise there would be no game. It's the same deal with war games. If it was intelligent, no enemy would ever get out of hiding spot, and you would fight one enemy for hours until someone makes mistake like in real war.

You really have no idea what you are asking for...

The thing is, this is what some players think they want... you should google up the game and introduce it to those players...

Well, the problem is that this game never got past that beta, it was to bad with those mechanics. It was some indie stuff, I wonder if it is still on the web somewere...

 

Originally posted by zwei2

Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by zwei2
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by PAL-18

AI which does not do mistakes is not really "advanced"

Its actually really easy to program something like "If xxx then 1" 

 

That is somewhat the point. Advanced AI does not mean to make perfekt decisions, especially not in a game. But we do expect reasonalbe decisions, and maybe different decisions from different mobs. So that a group does not move like One Person, or like the Borgs, they should act like a group of persona, which act on its own. And that is simple stuff, like one starting to move and the other just follows shortly after, and not at the exact same time. And another important aspect are reasonable wrong decisions... what we humans do all the time.. AI not so much. Because either it does nothing, or it does the perfect decision.

And for the general audience: About what do we talk?

Now: You have one simple AI script. And all mobs all over the world use this script. Everything act exactly the same.

Plan:

- for every single mob his own AI script. Now you can modify either every single script, or you create groups of Behaivors.

- layered AI, hierarchical structur. General commands Officer. Officer commands Soldier. And everyone has his own agenda.. and most problably as higher up in the hierarchy as more "handcrafted" the AI script could be, as more triggers, as more actions he has. and as more modified he is to the base AI script.

So.. all that is not really Advanced AI.. but in comparsion what we have in games, and not only in MMOs, it is a huge step and advanced. As Einstein said.. everything is relative.

 

There are a few things about this.

 

One : as per another poster's partial post

"A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now"

No matter how intricate the AI is, it is still a finite number of outcomes. If the players know how to react to the actions taken by the AI, it will just become stale AI.

 Yes.. there will be a finite number of actions. But if any Mob has his own agenda, not every mob will pick the exact same action. And therefore it isn't as predictable. The target is not to make everytime a perfect decision.

Two: About everyone has his own agenda

Humans are known to take the best course of action for a certain event. Why not AI have it too?

No. Really not. Humans do exactly not take the best course any time. We do decide anytime with different factors in mind, and with a different aim in mind, and we do not have at all time all information. So basicly our decisions are not the "best" for a certain event. And therefore your AI, if it should be believable and reasonable, don't do the "best" decision everytime, too.

For example, instead of the soldiers listening to the general to enter the battlefield and do random stuff, and just get kill (by any means) simply by going into the battlefield, the soldiers will have a revolt, overturn the command, and zerg as one, killling all the solo players. And since the revolt is much more likely to make the soldiers win, they will select to do this EVERYTIME, which will not be fun to the players at all.

 

Third: In games yes. In MMO not likely. Most games have a finite ending to attend, as well as solo gameplay, thus easier to compile into a complete game for players to enjoy.

MMOs... if players can complain about graphics too powerful for computer to handle, the players will sure complain about a game with too much AI coding that will take up too much resources and stuff.

 The resource and performance problem is a issue. No question. But performance increased of the last 30 years somewhat. And we seriously don't talk about human like AIs. Broken down it is still rather simple scripts.

Lastly: If players really wants advanced AI, they should just play PVP where the players will really meet real intelligent players that will actually react intelligently to actions.

Got silenced? Get out of attack range until silence is over, or use something/a skill to purify. Allies get ganked? Attack the ganker, rather than trashing random other enemies.

Yeah. But mobs don't insult you afterwards as a noob. ;) And some players do prefer this. And you can create as many or as less mobs as required or are usefull for some situations. In pvp you have to deal with what is available, or with a limited scenario (like battlefield limited to 5vs5 and only starts when everyone is available)

And more importantly, you can tell a story with mobs, they can act within your plan as a storyteller.. that is rather hard and expensive to accomplish with real players.

 

Fair enough. About the 1st point, the mob has to have actions that the players can react according. If "teleport away until fully healed and teleport back to trash the player" is one of the choice, it will make the players not happy. Thus resulting in really a set of plausible, finite actions.

 

Though about your last point, just imagine getting random guildmates to get up a roleplay event in the server, only to have one dork to crash it lol

Everyone has such good ideas, but all of them are just some kind of abstract talk. Please give some details.


Layered AI structure, ok. What scripts does a general have. He is better than plain units in what way. He orders his units to do what, and is he really needed for that? Isn't common algorithm a general in itself? Give some algorithm example please, this is interesting, but hard to imagine.


Every type of enemy has it's own agenda. Let's pick a game. So Tera for example has 500 monters. Different ranks of the same monster are counted so it is basically your scenario. It is not a big number, according to wiki, WoW has about ten times more. How much behaviors would you want to create for this number of mobs? Write at least 100 examples of behaviors, each with about 3-4 action decisions. Remember to diversify them.


Humans do not exactly take the best course of action any time. Ok, but this happens in very complex scenarios with lots of different events influencing decision. Like a huge battle, where real lives are at stake. But in a game, where enemy fights mobs, what is exactly a bad decision? If you review some historic battles, mistakes are made when huge armies do bad decision about their placing and timing. For such micro example like a game fight, what are the mistakes?  Please, examples. Few atleast. More than one, since you are applying it to MASSIVEmorpg.


About the PVP. It is true, the best example of advanced enemy. If players prefer as many mobs as required and usefull for some situations then we are back to simple AI. The perk of advanced one is that the numbers are not always convenient for players.


What you should do first and foremost is research, why advanced AI is not used. If you don't see it in games and you think it is the right thing to do, then try to find out, why all those brilliant game developers are not doing it. Maybe you are missing something.


I see a real lack of good, realistic examples. It is easy to say 'I want AI to be clever, and give some big words like coordination, or layered structure, but give some good examples. And a lot od them, thousands for a small mmorpg. Can you really make that much diversity? If not, then it wont be noticable anyway.

 

  Abuz0r

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/03/12
Posts: 315

8/09/13 7:50:55 AM#34
Originally posted by kuujo

Originally posted by zwei2

Originally posted by kuujo

There was a prototype of a game with intelligent AI like this. I don't remember if it was public, but I beta tested it.

Since it was suppose to be intelligent, mobs did everything to survive. You can't even start to imagine how annoying can a game be, if enemy really does everything not to die...

If there were to many players ganking mobs, they called reinforcements... Mobs kept retreating, running, hiding, doing suprise attacks, backstabbing... this shiet was so frustrating it made me want to throw PC out the window.

Mobs have to do stupid things, otherwise there would be no game. It's the same deal with war games. If it was intelligent, no enemy would ever get out of hiding spot, and you would fight one enemy for hours until someone makes mistake like in real war.

You really have no idea what you are asking for...

The thing is, this is what some players think they want... you should google up the game and introduce it to those players...

Well, the problem is that this game never got past that beta, it was to bad with those mechanics. It was some indie stuff, I wonder if it is still on the web somewere...

 

Originally posted by zwei2

Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by zwei2
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by PAL-18

AI which does not do mistakes is not really "advanced"

Its actually really easy to program something like "If xxx then 1" 

 

That is somewhat the point. Advanced AI does not mean to make perfekt decisions, especially not in a game. But we do expect reasonalbe decisions, and maybe different decisions from different mobs. So that a group does not move like One Person, or like the Borgs, they should act like a group of persona, which act on its own. And that is simple stuff, like one starting to move and the other just follows shortly after, and not at the exact same time. And another important aspect are reasonable wrong decisions... what we humans do all the time.. AI not so much. Because either it does nothing, or it does the perfect decision.

And for the general audience: About what do we talk?

Now: You have one simple AI script. And all mobs all over the world use this script. Everything act exactly the same.

Plan:

- for every single mob his own AI script. Now you can modify either every single script, or you create groups of Behaivors.

- layered AI, hierarchical structur. General commands Officer. Officer commands Soldier. And everyone has his own agenda.. and most problably as higher up in the hierarchy as more "handcrafted" the AI script could be, as more triggers, as more actions he has. and as more modified he is to the base AI script.

So.. all that is not really Advanced AI.. but in comparsion what we have in games, and not only in MMOs, it is a huge step and advanced. As Einstein said.. everything is relative.

 

There are a few things about this.

 

One : as per another poster's partial post

"A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now"

No matter how intricate the AI is, it is still a finite number of outcomes. If the players know how to react to the actions taken by the AI, it will just become stale AI.

 Yes.. there will be a finite number of actions. But if any Mob has his own agenda, not every mob will pick the exact same action. And therefore it isn't as predictable. The target is not to make everytime a perfect decision.

Two: About everyone has his own agenda

Humans are known to take the best course of action for a certain event. Why not AI have it too?

No. Really not. Humans do exactly not take the best course any time. We do decide anytime with different factors in mind, and with a different aim in mind, and we do not have at all time all information. So basicly our decisions are not the "best" for a certain event. And therefore your AI, if it should be believable and reasonable, don't do the "best" decision everytime, too.

For example, instead of the soldiers listening to the general to enter the battlefield and do random stuff, and just get kill (by any means) simply by going into the battlefield, the soldiers will have a revolt, overturn the command, and zerg as one, killling all the solo players. And since the revolt is much more likely to make the soldiers win, they will select to do this EVERYTIME, which will not be fun to the players at all.

 

Third: In games yes. In MMO not likely. Most games have a finite ending to attend, as well as solo gameplay, thus easier to compile into a complete game for players to enjoy.

MMOs... if players can complain about graphics too powerful for computer to handle, the players will sure complain about a game with too much AI coding that will take up too much resources and stuff.

 The resource and performance problem is a issue. No question. But performance increased of the last 30 years somewhat. And we seriously don't talk about human like AIs. Broken down it is still rather simple scripts.

Lastly: If players really wants advanced AI, they should just play PVP where the players will really meet real intelligent players that will actually react intelligently to actions.

Got silenced? Get out of attack range until silence is over, or use something/a skill to purify. Allies get ganked? Attack the ganker, rather than trashing random other enemies.

Yeah. But mobs don't insult you afterwards as a noob. ;) And some players do prefer this. And you can create as many or as less mobs as required or are usefull for some situations. In pvp you have to deal with what is available, or with a limited scenario (like battlefield limited to 5vs5 and only starts when everyone is available)

And more importantly, you can tell a story with mobs, they can act within your plan as a storyteller.. that is rather hard and expensive to accomplish with real players.

 

Fair enough. About the 1st point, the mob has to have actions that the players can react according. If "teleport away until fully healed and teleport back to trash the player" is one of the choice, it will make the players not happy. Thus resulting in really a set of plausible, finite actions.

 

Though about your last point, just imagine getting random guildmates to get up a roleplay event in the server, only to have one dork to crash it lol

Everyone has such good ideas, but all of them are just some kind of abstract talk. Please give some details.


Layered AI structure, ok. What scripts does a general have. He is better than plain units in what way. He orders his units to do what, and is he really needed for that? Isn't common algorithm a general in itself? Give some algorithm example please, this is interesting, but hard to imagine.


Every type of enemy has it's own agenda. Let's pick a game. So Tera for example has 500 monters. Different ranks of the same monster are counted so it is basically your scenario. It is not a big number, according to wiki, WoW has about ten times more. How much behaviors would you want to create for this number of mobs? Write at least 100 examples of behaviors, each with about 3-4 action decisions. Remember to diversify them.


Humans do not exactly take the best course of action any time. Ok, but this happens in very complex scenarios with lots of different events influencing decision. Like a huge battle, where real lives are at stake. But in a game, where enemy fights mobs, what is exactly a bad decision? If you review some historic battles, mistakes are made when huge armies do bad decision about their placing and timing. For such micro example like a game fight, what are the mistakes?  Please, examples. Few atleast. More than one, since you are applying it to MASSIVEmorpg.


About the PVP. It is true, the best example of advanced enemy. If players prefer as many mobs as required and usefull for some situations then we are back to simple AI. The perk of advanced one is that the numbers are not always convenient for players.


What you should do first and foremost is research, why advanced AI is not used. If you don't see it in games and you think it is the right thing to do, then try to find out, why all those brilliant game developers are not doing it. Maybe you are missing something.


I see a real lack of good, realistic examples. It is easy to say 'I want AI to be clever, and give some big words like coordination, or layered structure, but give some good examples. And a lot od them, thousands for a small mmorpg. Can you really make that much diversity? If not, then it wont be noticable anyway.

 

Holy wall of text.

I think that MMORPG.com is an excellent place for MMO players with no computer skills what-so-ever other than playing the games to come and say what they'd like to have without the burden of having to explain how.

If the players could or were expected to say how, then what would be the point of a 'developer'.

HOPEFULLY, developers thumb through this forum to get ideas.  Maybe they can have an area of the game with this OPs idea.  We don't have to apply this type of AI to the entire game, just to a particular area or instance or dungeon or something.  Players who venture there may choose not to come back, or may love the thrill and return again.  I personally think it would be awesome.

I don't want the level 3 orc I have to kill to run in fear from me to a lake, then suddenly drown me in it.  But an elite mob maybe I would actually expect that behavior from.

Aion has ratings for every mob in the game, there's little white dots in it's status plate that go in a circle.  A 1 dot mob will yield poor exp and can be expected to die quickly without defending itself.  A 6 dot mob is hard to kill.  Then there is an elite 1 dot mob through 6 dot.  Heroic 1 through 6 dot. Then legendary 1 through 6 dot. 

Systems like this can indicate the level of AI applied to the NPC, and it's up to the developers, not our community, to implement scripts to surprise us with attacks we didn't see coming.  Practice makes perfect!

Aion also helps mitigate this difficulty by allowing the general store in the game to sell portable, single use bind-points that are relatively expensive.  Players usually keep 3 or 4 in their inventory.  You can use one, and bind to it temporarily until it's destroyed or expires or you bind to something else.  There's also a yucky death penalty which essentially equates to you're out money and time if you die.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17617

8/09/13 7:58:11 AM#35

First of all, just because you find it frustrating doesn't mean everyone would.

Secondly, any "advanced AI" would always be able to outsmart a human just by the very nature that it can think faster than we can.

However "third" there are people who want to do more than whack on a mob for 5 seconds and have no challenge.

 

I recall having to install mods in Oblvion and Skyrim that made the mobs much hard to kill.  This to me was far more interesting than "click click click" win... click click click win".

I would love mobs to call reinforcments, hide behind cover, etc.

However, it has to be reasonable as a computer can just be faster than a human.

Have you ever played Dark Souls? Not saying that AI is particularly brilliant but I've learned that if I turn my back on a mob it will back stab me which in some cases can equal a one shot.

However, judging from your post I don't believe you would like Dark Souls.

  Apraxis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1509

8/09/13 8:19:10 AM#36
Originally posted by kuujo
 ... (reduced the wall somewhat)

Everyone has such good ideas, but all of them are just some kind of abstract talk. Please give some details.


Layered AI structure, ok. What scripts does a general have. He is better than plain units in what way. He orders his units to do what, and is he really needed for that? Isn't common algorithm a general in itself? Give some algorithm example please, this is interesting, but hard to imagine.

I give some basic examples, and some implications because of it.

The General as example don't have to be any better, or more advanced. Ok, he does have the ability to give orders to the structure below it. But thats about it.

Results: First of all Group behaivor. A amount of Mobs try to accomplish one target (command from general), but now ticks in the AI of any of those soldiers additionally. Basic example i aleady posted somewhere else:

Ork Officier(commands 4 orks): Commands attack Healer!

Ork 1 (loyal, clever, disciplined): Immedatly runs to Healer and attack him

Ork 2 (loyal, not so clever, disciplined): Looks around(to find healer), see Ork 1 to running to a target, and follows him shortly afterwards to attack Healer.

Ork 3 (not loyal, but clever): Runs to the mage and attacks him

Ork 4 (not loyal, not clever): Attacks the tank.

That example is of course overexxagerated, but to draw a picture. A general could give more global orders to there officers to look out at different places, or to accomplish different goals for a greater target.

Example Siege of a Caslte

General commands

- Officer 1 to take down the doors.

- Officer 2 to fire with catapults to support Officer 1

- Officer 3 to watch for enemies around

- Officer 4 to try to get into the keep backwards with ladders.

And all those officers have different personalities and command a lot of soldiers with different commands.

Overall the complete behaivor of all orcs becomes more organic, more reasonalbe, more like humans would act.. but not necessarily any better or unbeatable.. it just feels more natural.

 


Every type of enemy has it's own agenda. Let's pick a game. So Tera for example has 500 monters. Different ranks of the same monster are counted so it is basically your scenario. It is not a big number, according to wiki, WoW has about ten times more. How much behaviors would you want to create for this number of mobs? Write at least 100 examples of behaviors, each with about 3-4 action decisions. Remember to diversify them.

Do you really think that is a problem? One person could write (given the right scripting tools like Storybricks) easily 50-100 a day. But is that really your concern?


Humans do not exactly take the best course of action any time. Ok, but this happens in very complex scenarios with lots of different events influencing decision. Like a huge battle, where real lives are at stake. But in a game, where enemy fights mobs, what is exactly a bad decision? If you review some historic battles, mistakes are made when huge armies do bad decision about their placing and timing. For such micro example like a game fight, what are the mistakes?  Please, examples. Few atleast. More than one, since you are applying it to MASSIVEmorpg.

Like in any pvp battle. Not all groups do actually assist. Not all groups attack critical targets like the healer or mage, or what is in a certain circumstance the best first target. Not all groups do interupt certain secondary targets, like second healer, like Mage. Most groups in pvp suck and make a lot of very basic mistakes, or don't even know what they should do.


About the PVP. It is true, the best example of advanced enemy. If players prefer as many mobs as required and usefull for some situations then we are back to simple AI. The perk of advanced one is that the numbers are not always convenient for players.


What you should do first and foremost is research, why advanced AI is not used. If you don't see it in games and you think it is the right thing to do, then try to find out, why all those brilliant game developers are not doing it. Maybe you are missing something.


I see a real lack of good, realistic examples. It is easy to say 'I want AI to be clever, and give some big words like coordination, or layered structure, but give some good examples. And a lot od them, thousands for a small mmorpg. Can you really make that much diversity? If not, then it wont be noticable anyway.

 

If you want more example. We can organize a private session and for 50$/hours i will you explain and give you a few hundreds and even detailed example.. whatever you want. ;)

In all honestly.. all the example i have given you are extremely basic. Even with the use of the simpliest scripting. Tools like storybricks do have some additional triggers, and options. If you want to know more here is a little about Story Bricks incl. a video.. or just google about Story Bricks or more generally about AI used in games.

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/-indies-did-this-how-voxel-farm-and-storybricks-are-helping-to-shape-everquest-next-

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/09/13 8:45:13 AM#37
Originally posted by Abuz0r

Good post, dumb poll............   A simple YES/NO as the options would have been better.

It annoys me when a mob will always aim for the tank, never attack anyone else except for AOE, and everyone gets to give him a rectal exam and he doesn't even care.

...five feet from his four other friends who are oblivious to the battle going on and who are completely surprised that you attacked them once you finished with their buddy.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Brenelael

Guide

Joined: 10/19/06
Posts: 3985

Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006

8/09/13 8:46:24 AM#38

According to IBM and others that are working on advanced human like thought in computing the smartest AI on the planet right now has about the same intelligence level as your average Cockroach. If you can't outsmart a Cockroach.... I think you can figure out where I'm going with this.

 

Bren

while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}

  PAL-18

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/13
Posts: 740

8/09/13 8:53:08 AM#39
Originally posted by Brenelael

According to IBM and others that are working on advanced human like thought in computing the smartest AI on the planet right now has about the same intelligence level as your average Cockroach. If you can't outsmart a Cockroach.... I think you can figure out where I'm going with this.

 

Bren

That is one of those reasons why we use dices :)

But these days the dice is D1 with i win text on it.

 

So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  Mr.Kujo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 392

“Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.”

8/09/13 10:30:38 AM#40
Originally posted by Sovrath

First of all, just because you find it frustrating doesn't mean everyone would.

Secondly, any "advanced AI" would always be able to outsmart a human just by the very nature that it can think faster than we can.

However "third" there are people who want to do more than whack on a mob for 5 seconds and have no challenge.

 

I recall having to install mods in Oblvion and Skyrim that made the mobs much hard to kill.  This to me was far more interesting than "click click click" win... click click click win".

I would love mobs to call reinforcments, hide behind cover, etc.

However, it has to be reasonable as a computer can just be faster than a human.

Have you ever played Dark Souls? Not saying that AI is particularly brilliant but I've learned that if I turn my back on a mob it will back stab me which in some cases can equal a one shot.

However, judging from your post I don't believe you would like Dark Souls.

Another wall of text incoming xD

There is a difference between something being hard, and something being just plain tedious. And that is what intelligent AI can be. I like challenge and I love oldschool games, where it was hard to kill even regular mob, but mob that escapes from you, or does actions that only prolong the gameplay, not enrich it is not a tough experience, it is easy, but irritating.

I am not against intelligent AI, I just dream of seing an actuall example of this being actually hard, not just boring. Is calling reinforcements really that good? Would you like after 100th time attacking monster to hear the same call for allies that stops fight for two seconds? And then have to fight with another 10 mobs, even if you needed only to kill this one. Those are small details and seconds, but in a game, where you do it all the time for months, it will grow. It may not sound so bad, but repetition ruins even the best mechanic. Mob hiding behind a cover if he is loosing, just to make you chase him. Hiding mob behind cover isn't making it harder in terms that you can loose now, it just stretches out the combat. It is not harder, you just have to run after the mob now.

If you see it differently, explain how it is different from what I said just now, and how it is difficult in your opinion.

 

I will go with your style of answering if you don't mind.

Originally posted by Apraxis

I give some basic examples, and some implications because of it.

The General as example don't have to be any better, or more advanced. Ok, he does have the ability to give orders to the structure below it. But thats about it.

Results: First of all Group behaivor. A amount of Mobs try to accomplish one target (command from general), but now ticks in the AI of any of those soldiers additionally. Basic example i aleady posted somewhere else:

Ork Officier(commands 4 orks): Commands attack Healer!

So you want smart enemies to attack the weakest link. Sounds good, but it has some problems. Healer gets attacked, hp drops low, he starts to run, mob follows him all around, because he wants to finish healer off as a smart orc he is. So warriors start chasing orc, orc chases healer and everyone runs like in Benny Hills show. Or, you can make orc to loose it's focus after few seconds of chasing, but this can be easily abused by players then, and all the mechanic of attacking weakest link would be for nothing. Another problem is attacking someone weaker, means that this player is actually weak, so it would be hard to avoid death even with warriors helping if for example orc had some kind of debuff. It's ok if players have different roles and weaknesses, but not ok if one class is orcs "bitch", that always gets focused, specially if it means death for him every time this happens. And if you made healer stronger, then he wouldn't be weakest then so no point in all this.  How do you see this? What does the officer add to the game? Is officer only stronger mob with animation that indicates who the orcs target is?

Ork 1 (loyal, clever, disciplined): Immedatly runs to Healer and attack him

Ork 2 (loyal, not so clever, disciplined): Looks around(to find healer), see Ork 1 to running to a target, and follows him shortly afterwards to attack Healer.

Ork 3 (not loyal, but clever): Runs to the mage and attacks him

Ork 4 (not loyal, not clever): Attacks the tank.

That example is of course overexxagerated, but to draw a picture. A general could give more global orders to there officers to look out at different places, or to accomplish different goals for a greater target.

I like this example, but it has one problem. In this example the smartest and best orc does, what every orc in regular scripted scenario does, while other orcs are easier. So you are lowering difficulty by adding more realism, not increasing it.

Example Siege of a Caslte

General commands

- Officer 1 to take down the doors.

- Officer 2 to fire with catapults to support Officer 1

- Officer 3 to watch for enemies around

- Officer 4 to try to get into the keep backwards with ladders.

And all those officers have different personalities and command a lot of soldiers with different commands.

Overall the complete behaivor of all orcs becomes more organic, more reasonalbe, more like humans would act.. but not necessarily any better or unbeatable.. it just feels more natural.

But you will always have the same behaviour. Always there will be some orc going for doors, some for ladders, it goes back to scripted behaviour again. It doesn't really have anything to do with intelligent AI. Unless you want them to change strategy on the run and move regiments to different zones, droping objectives. That I would love to see.

Do you really think that is a problem? One person could write (given the right scripting tools like Storybricks) easily 50-100 a day. But is that really your concern?

My concern is not writing those behaviours, but making them up. There aren't really that many scenarios in a fight, that is why I would like to se many examples, because I'm pretty sure, that someone would run out of ideas after first few.

Like in any pvp battle. Not all groups do actually assist. Not all groups attack critical targets like the healer or mage, or what is in a certain circumstance the best first target. Not all groups do interupt certain secondary targets, like second healer, like Mage. Most groups in pvp suck and make a lot of very basic mistakes, or don't even know what they should do.

Ok, I understand this, but again.. this is actually lowering difficulty by realistic AI, not increasing it. I thought the point of making intelligent AI is to make it more challenging.


About the PVP. It is true, the best example of advanced enemy. If players prefer as many mobs as required and usefull for some situations then we are back to simple AI. The perk of advanced one is that the numbers are not always convenient for players.


What you should do first and foremost is research, why advanced AI is not used. If you don't see it in games and you think it is the right thing to do, then try to find out, why all those brilliant game developers are not doing it. Maybe you are missing something.


I see a real lack of good, realistic examples. It is easy to say 'I want AI to be clever, and give some big words like coordination, or layered structure, but give some good examples. And a lot od them, thousands for a small mmorpg. Can you really make that much diversity? If not, then it wont be noticable anyway.

 

If you want more example. We can organize a private session and for 50$/hours i will you explain and give you a few hundreds and even detailed example.. whatever you want. ;)

You are being way overconfident in this. I'm trying to create discussion and force you to prove your point, because I see many flaws in your thinking, not trying to tell you're wrong, while you are being cocky now xD

 

 

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