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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Creating a mmorpg for soloist is the stupidest thing ever

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137 posts found
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12272

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

8/07/13 6:08:04 PM#121
Originally posted by Kaledren
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

So, my skill in diablo 3 aside, how does that change the fact that MMO are supposed to be persistant worlds, not pit stops, and the goal should be to make a gaming experience that lasts for years, not hours?

MMOs are not supposed to be anything. It is just a convenient label for a group of games. Genre changes. So what if MMOs are good short term games now. I can enjoy them as such as opposed to ranting about it.

The goal is to entertain. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

I prefer to play a MMO not as a social game. I very much prefer solo content. It is nice to have a group option available for those times when i am in the mood for someone to play with, or i have longer time to group. But i like the feeling of not needing others nor obligated to help. It helps to make the game more fun to me.

 

The highlighted portion is always his answer. Too bad it is wrong.

There are many types of MMO's...

  • MMORPG: MMO Role Playing Games
  • MMOBA: MMO Battle Arena
  • MMORTS: MMO Real Time Strategy Games
  • MMOFPS: MMO First Person Shooter Games
  • MMOSG(sports): MMO Sports Games
  • MMOR: MMO Racing Games
  • MMORG/MMODG: MMO Rythm/Music Games or MMO Dancing Games
  • MMOMG: MMO Management Games
  • MMOSG(social): MMO Social Games
  • MMOBBG/MMOBBRPG: MMO Bulletin Board Games or MMO Bulletin Board Role Playing GamesQuest
  • MMOPG: MMO Puzzle Games – Three Rings, Puzzle Pirates
  • MMOCCG: MMO Collectible Card Games
  • MMO alternate reality games
  • MMO Turn based Strategy Games
  • MMO Simulation Games
The reason for this is because they are meant for SOMETHING. That is...to attract a certain type of player that enjoys said type of game as a customer, and to serve as that players/customers entertainment. This is why there are different genres. For different tastes.
 
Now some of these mix together as well. Such as a MMORPG also has the elements (Or sadly...HAD at one time anyways.) of MMOSG's, MMOBA's, etc. But...for the most part...they are different categories for a purpose.
 
 
I agree that MMO's are meant to entertain. But they are meant to entertain in different ways. Some with fast fun, some with long drawn out fun, some with mindless action, others with fun in the form of thinking and figuring things out, etc, etc..
 
But not all of them should be the same to entertain YOU, as you always seem to drive at. Again, there are different categories of them for a reason.  I know it's tough, but try letting that sink in.

You just completely proved his point, unless in your world a squares and trapezoids are not quadrilaterals.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Kaledren

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/11
Posts: 154

8/07/13 6:59:20 PM#122
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Kaledren
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

So, my skill in diablo 3 aside, how does that change the fact that MMO are supposed to be persistant worlds, not pit stops, and the goal should be to make a gaming experience that lasts for years, not hours?

MMOs are not supposed to be anything. It is just a convenient label for a group of games. Genre changes. So what if MMOs are good short term games now. I can enjoy them as such as opposed to ranting about it.

The goal is to entertain. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

I prefer to play a MMO not as a social game. I very much prefer solo content. It is nice to have a group option available for those times when i am in the mood for someone to play with, or i have longer time to group. But i like the feeling of not needing others nor obligated to help. It helps to make the game more fun to me.

 

The highlighted portion is always his answer. Too bad it is wrong.

There are many types of MMO's...

  • MMORPG: MMO Role Playing Games
  • MMOBA: MMO Battle Arena
  • MMORTS: MMO Real Time Strategy Games
  • MMOFPS: MMO First Person Shooter Games
  • MMOSG(sports): MMO Sports Games
  • MMOR: MMO Racing Games
  • MMORG/MMODG: MMO Rythm/Music Games or MMO Dancing Games
  • MMOMG: MMO Management Games
  • MMOSG(social): MMO Social Games
  • MMOBBG/MMOBBRPG: MMO Bulletin Board Games or MMO Bulletin Board Role Playing GamesQuest
  • MMOPG: MMO Puzzle Games – Three Rings, Puzzle Pirates
  • MMOCCG: MMO Collectible Card Games
  • MMO alternate reality games
  • MMO Turn based Strategy Games
  • MMO Simulation Games
The reason for this is because they are meant for SOMETHING. That is...to attract a certain type of player that enjoys said type of game as a customer, and to serve as that players/customers entertainment. This is why there are different genres. For different tastes.
 
Now some of these mix together as well. Such as a MMORPG also has the elements (Or sadly...HAD at one time anyways.) of MMOSG's, MMOBA's, etc. But...for the most part...they are different categories for a purpose.
 
 
I agree that MMO's are meant to entertain. But they are meant to entertain in different ways. Some with fast fun, some with long drawn out fun, some with mindless action, others with fun in the form of thinking and figuring things out, etc, etc..
 
But not all of them should be the same to entertain YOU, as you always seem to drive at. Again, there are different categories of them for a reason.  I know it's tough, but try letting that sink in.

You just completely proved his point, unless in your world a squares and trapezoids are not quadrilaterals.

 

Either I missed his point...or he needs to improve his language skills and explain it better than he ever manages to.

All he ever seems to come across as saying is that MMO's shouldn't be anything, as he did above...which makes no sense. And that all MMO's should basically be fast paced, instanced, lobby games. Because it doesn't matter if your talking about MMORPG's,  or any of the other types listed above...he always has the same answer and outlook.

As explained above...yes...some can intertwine...HOWEVER, for the most part they ARE defined in different categories for a reason...because they stand out with certain features for certain playerbases, which means they are meant for something. That being a particular playerbase, hence, a label that puts them in a category that those playerbases can identify them. But they ARE different.

Guess this would be a MUCH easier conversation if it were in person or via phone/mic...because in forum conversations...things can get lost in comprehension differences and demeanor interpretation.

 

  Gorwe

Elite Member

Joined: 9/16/11
Posts: 1807

8/07/13 9:35:05 PM#123
Meh. After all the massive words and all the suggestions, I had an epiphany:

How about you develop both contents and just let players have FUN? In whatever way they see it. Isn't it why we are playing GAMES anyhow?
  Greyhawk4x4

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/26/06
Posts: 475

-Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Franklin

8/07/13 9:48:48 PM#124
Originally posted by Ramonski7
Originally posted by nomatics856

EQ 1 had the best solo/grouping game play ever, its like clubs are for people who like to socially interact yet a person goes there just to dance by themselves its stupid, you don't go to the nightclub and say this club is just for people to dance by themselves, the club doesn't revolve around a person that is by themselves its for a group of people to interact dance and have fun together

That is how a mmorpg should be, a mmorpg should be about bringing people together to socially interact if you do not like to socially interact their are certain classes with solo capabilities to help you solo, like EQs necro and druid the classes were for soloist but EQ did not revolve around the soloist mindset.

You seem to be getting solo playing and self sufficiency mixed up. Arguably, the two greatest sandbox mmorpgs that I've ever played (UO and SWG) did not require a group to advance your progression, but enhance it. In fact I did most of my daily task as a master ranger alone. And when I felt the need to socialize I headed to town or grabbed a challenging mission. That's the beauty of a virtual world rather than a virtual race.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

I was also a Master Ranger and I would be out doing my own thing when i would get a random tell from some Jedi who wanted to hire me to find a Peko Peko Albatross for him.....and just that quick, the environmental immersiveness and social immersiveness became one. 

 


  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

8/07/13 10:39:09 PM#125
Originally posted by Gorwe
Meh. After all the massive words and all the suggestions, I had an epiphany:

How about you develop both contents and just let players have FUN? In whatever way they see it. Isn't it why we are playing GAMES anyhow?

Thank you, Mr. Koster. You can sit back down now.

Have you seen this man?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  LoverNoFighter

Novice Member

Joined: 9/05/12
Posts: 334

SWG pre cu > all

8/08/13 3:33:56 AM#126
Originally posted by Greyhawk4x4
Originally posted by Ramonski7
Originally posted by nomatics856

EQ 1 had the best solo/grouping game play ever, its like clubs are for people who like to socially interact yet a person goes there just to dance by themselves its stupid, you don't go to the nightclub and say this club is just for people to dance by themselves, the club doesn't revolve around a person that is by themselves its for a group of people to interact dance and have fun together

That is how a mmorpg should be, a mmorpg should be about bringing people together to socially interact if you do not like to socially interact their are certain classes with solo capabilities to help you solo, like EQs necro and druid the classes were for soloist but EQ did not revolve around the soloist mindset.

You seem to be getting solo playing and self sufficiency mixed up. Arguably, the two greatest sandbox mmorpgs that I've ever played (UO and SWG) did not require a group to advance your progression, but enhance it. In fact I did most of my daily task as a master ranger alone. And when I felt the need to socialize I headed to town or grabbed a challenging mission. That's the beauty of a virtual world rather than a virtual race.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

I was also a Master Ranger and I would be out doing my own thing when i would get a random tell from some Jedi who wanted to hire me to find a Peko Peko Albatross for him.....and just that quick, the environmental immersiveness and social immersiveness became one. 

 

 SWG pre cu was the best. Hands down.

I'm afraid we'll never see a game like that again and that's a shame and great loss to every MMOer.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5248

8/08/13 10:42:39 AM#127
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot
 

LFG systems like so many things were a two edged sword. On the one hand groups became easier to find, but also more random in nature. On the whole though they have been a good step forward. You can as has been mentioned do both, I have seen this done and it can work even in raids.

Yeh. It is working in wow raids. In fact, most players complete raids on LFR, than normal or hard mode.

Personally i quit wow long time ago, and came back because of LFR (until i quit again last Dec). It makes raiding more fun.

And yes, groups are more random but you also have control. You can easily just quit if there is anything you don't like about the group.

 

Hang on, I thought WoW was still P2P? That means you were paying for a MMO. The F2P lovers on here are going to brand you a traitor and burn you for heresy. :D

  Daaken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/01/13
Posts: 160

“It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.”

8/08/13 10:51:09 AM#128
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kaledren
 

Not according to an obvious group on these forums. Sad what they've become. There is almost no difference between them and console games now...other than the other players assume the role of NPC's for the most part.

Oh of course there are differences ...

1) You can't show off your gear to other humans in console games.

2) Console games don't have AH.

3) Console games don't have some of the unique settings of some MMOs (like STO).

And other players are better NPCs than programmed ones. So there is a win there.

 

You're missing the biggest Key to MMO.  Persistence.  As much as I love games like Skyrim or Darksiders, the games inevitably come to a conclusion.  Persistence is the only reason why I play MMO's, it's nice knowing something will never end and in the long run it means I get more bang for my buck.

 

I also started out playing MMO's in 1999, with Asheron's Call.  One of the original "big 3" that founded this genre and the only MMO that espoused that solo play was just as important as group play.  Neither were mutually exclusive of one another.  The whole notion that the world is massively doesn't mean I "have" to play with others, it just meant the world was alive and virtual.  I think the key the OP is missing here is you can build a game that is solo friendly but still give incentives for group play as well.

Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.

Me: So you want something like EQN

Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.

Me: Double Facepalm.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

8/08/13 10:59:04 AM#129
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot
 

LFG systems like so many things were a two edged sword. On the one hand groups became easier to find, but also more random in nature. On the whole though they have been a good step forward. You can as has been mentioned do both, I have seen this done and it can work even in raids.

Yeh. It is working in wow raids. In fact, most players complete raids on LFR, than normal or hard mode.

Personally i quit wow long time ago, and came back because of LFR (until i quit again last Dec). It makes raiding more fun.

And yes, groups are more random but you also have control. You can easily just quit if there is anything you don't like about the group.

 

Hang on, I thought WoW was still P2P? That means you were paying for a MMO. The F2P lovers on here are going to brand you a traitor and burn you for heresy. :D

uh .. didn't you read what i said?

I quite for 9 months by now. Plus, even last year i am not really paying to pay WOW, it was the Diablo annual pass that i have to finish up. So i have not paid for a MMO for a long time.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

8/08/13 11:00:21 AM#130
Originally posted by Daaken
 

You're missing the biggest Key to MMO.  Persistence.  As much as I love games like Skyrim or Darksiders, the games inevitably come to a conclusion.  Persistence is the only reason why I play MMO's, it's nice knowing something will never end and in the long run it means I get more bang for my buck.

You don't need a MMO for persistency. D3 has persistent characters and gear and it is not a MMO. Many online ARPG have that.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

8/08/13 4:59:32 PM#131
Originally posted by Daaken
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kaledren
 

Not according to an obvious group on these forums. Sad what they've become. There is almost no difference between them and console games now...other than the other players assume the role of NPC's for the most part.

Oh of course there are differences ...

1) You can't show off your gear to other humans in console games.

2) Console games don't have AH.

3) Console games don't have some of the unique settings of some MMOs (like STO).

And other players are better NPCs than programmed ones. So there is a win there.

 

You're missing the biggest Key to MMO.  Persistence.  As much as I love games like Skyrim or Darksiders, the games inevitably come to a conclusion.  Persistence is the only reason why I play MMO's, it's nice knowing something will never end and in the long run it means I get more bang for my buck.

You're just wrong.  Skyrim never comes to a conclusion so long as they keep releasing new DLC, which is exactly the same as an MMO developer releasing an expansion.  I didn't play Skyrim for close to a year, then recently I started it up and it's exactly the same as it was when I left it.  If that's not persistence, I don't know what is.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Reticulata

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 82

8/08/13 5:03:00 PM#132

Creating a mmorpg for soloist is the stupidest thing ever"

 

Nothing more needs to be said here.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

8/08/13 5:04:51 PM#133
Originally posted by Reticulata

Creating a mmorpg for soloist is the stupidest thing ever"

 

Nothing more needs to be said here.

No, we can all just point and laugh at how absurd a statement it is.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5248

8/09/13 6:52:35 AM#134
Originally posted by Daaken
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kaledren
 

Not according to an obvious group on these forums. Sad what they've become. There is almost no difference between them and console games now...other than the other players assume the role of NPC's for the most part.

Oh of course there are differences ...

1) You can't show off your gear to other humans in console games.

2) Console games don't have AH.

3) Console games don't have some of the unique settings of some MMOs (like STO).

And other players are better NPCs than programmed ones. So there is a win there.

 

You're missing the biggest Key to MMO.  Persistence.  As much as I love games like Skyrim or Darksiders, the games inevitably come to a conclusion.  Persistence is the only reason why I play MMO's, it's nice knowing something will never end and in the long run it means I get more bang for my buck.

 

I also started out playing MMO's in 1999, with Asheron's Call.  One of the original "big 3" that founded this genre and the only MMO that espoused that solo play was just as important as group play.  Neither were mutually exclusive of one another.  The whole notion that the world is massively doesn't mean I "have" to play with others, it just meant the world was alive and virtual.  I think the key the OP is missing here is you can build a game that is solo friendly but still give incentives for group play as well.

For now solo games played online have very limited interactions between players, not just in consoles, PC Steam/Origin solo games are similar. But if anyone thinks that's not going to change you need to wake up. We are not going to have a situation where all solo games become multiplayer in the next couple of years, but even in the next couple of years we are going to see increasing interaction between players. Maybe you will be able to swap or sell things to your mates, maybe you will be able to get group/guild achievements. Or we may start to see the rise of "solo" games that let you duo with a friend. Whatever happens the direction of travel is clear, more interaction.

It is ironic that as this is happening we have less interaction in MMO's. But the difference will be you will interact in what are primarily solo games with friends. Where as in MMO's players are choosing not to interact with strangers. I say choosing, modern MMO's have of course severely limited the ways you can interact. What the outcome of this will be is hard to see. Richard Garrett was talking a few months back about having a system in a MMO which paired you with friends, so even if you went into an instance without grouping you would find friends in your instance. This would obviously encourage interaction between players in a MMO but it is the sort of thing we would need to see in play to gauge its value.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19793

8/09/13 11:32:42 AM#135
Originally posted by Scot
 

For now solo games played online have very limited interactions between players, not just in consoles, PC Steam/Origin solo games are similar. But if anyone thinks that's not going to change you need to wake up. We are not going to have a situation where all solo games become multiplayer in the next couple of years, but even in the next couple of years we are going to see increasing interaction between players. Maybe you will be able to swap or sell things to your mates, maybe you will be able to get group/guild achievements. Or we may start to see the rise of "solo" games that let you duo with a friend. Whatever happens the direction of travel is clear, more interaction.

It is ironic that as this is happening we have less interaction in MMO's. But the difference will be you will interact in what are primarily solo games with friends. Where as in MMO's players are choosing not to interact with strangers. I say choosing, modern MMO's have of course severely limited the ways you can interact. What the outcome of this will be is hard to see. Richard Garrett was talking a few months back about having a system in a MMO which paired you with friends, so even if you went into an instance without grouping you would find friends in your instance. This would obviously encourage interaction between players in a MMO but it is the sort of thing we would need to see in play to gauge its value.

It is not. Many miss the fact that more interactions is not more fun. Either is zero. There is a sweet spot.

Think about it. Unrestricted interaction is a horrible, bad thing. Trains, camping, kill stealing, ninja-looting. Hence, instances eliminate competition from other groups in pve. Training is eliminated. Ninja-looting is eliminated by individual loot roll. FFA open world pvp is practically gone from all mainstream games.

This is the industry maturing, figuring out what works and what does not, instead of holding onto some old ideas of what a virtual world should be. Gaming is better because of this.

 

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5248

8/10/13 4:27:34 AM#136
I am not saying you need to interact all the time to make it a MMO or make it a good game. Indeed, too much reliance on interaction with the wrong sort of game structure can be bad. So long camping times was bad for a game but I would argue longer selling and buying times with no AH could be good for a game. But we have gone beyond these old arguments. We have arrived at a point where most players just see another players cape flashing by and that is meant to be multiplayer.
  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5571

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

8/10/13 4:32:56 AM#137
Originally posted by Kaledren
Originally posted by nomatics856

EQ 1 had the best solo/grouping game play ever, its like clubs are for people who like to socially interact yet a person goes there just to dance by themselves its stupid, you dont go to the nightclub and say this club is just for people to dance by themselves, the club doesnt revolve around a person that is by themselves its for a group of people to interact dance and have fun together

That is how a mmorpg should be, a mmorpg should be about bringing people together to socially interact if you do not like to socially interact their are certain classes with solo capabilities to help you solo, like EQs necro and druid the classes were for soloist but EQ did not revolve around the soloist mindset.

Not according to an obvious group on these forums. Sad what they've become. There is almost no difference between them and console games now...other than the other players assume the role of NPC's for the most part.

that has nothing, zero, nada, to do with consoles. 2 different platforms, both are made for single player games and for multiplayer games. Older consoles began the coop thing with local coop. PC began the bigger scale multiplayer thing, Now PC has coops too, and console have bigger scale multiplayer too. Please dont try to bring console vs pc discussion up cos its completely irrelevant to the actual discussion.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

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