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General Discussion  » People are overestimating how good game mob AI can get at this current time.

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115 posts found
  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

8/08/13 3:15:32 PM#21
AI in current MMOs has remained stagnant, largely relying on the dumb standard of aggro tanking and Trinity to constitute gameplay.  Any advance in AI that changes the status quo is welcome, in my opinion.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19284

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

8/08/13 3:23:52 PM#22
I think developers can create an AI that is very challenging, making it quite difficult to overcome.

But seriously, players still want to be able to control the outcome 99% of the time, or it won't be "fun" for them.

Heck, thinking they want real challenge where the outcome is in serious doubt is like believing Hunters are interested in giving the deer a fair chance to fight back and even kill them.

Just doesn't happen, by our nature we want the deck stacked heavily in our favor and this is very true for most gamers, regardless whether it is in PVE or PVP.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3363

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

8/08/13 3:26:29 PM#23


Originally posted by NaMeNaMe
You are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013. 

 

A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now.


There is nothing random about player intelligence.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  SpottyGekko

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2956

8/08/13 3:27:41 PM#24
Originally posted by NagelRitter

Err, what? Nonsense. The AI currently studied in research is leaps and bounds ahead of what is needed here. There are plenty of algorithms for this sort of thing out there at this point. The reason you are not seeing decent AI in MMO's is because nobody bothers. That's it.

I am not sure what your knowledge of AI is but you clearly lack the ability to apply it. There is AI in some modern RTS, TES, and Dota 2, that can get quite good, and that can be transferred to what SOE is trying to implement. Dota 2 uses granular desire system that could be used here, for instance. There are plenty of ways to implement this already with varying levels of complexity. The issue here is not the AI. The issue here is implementing this in a balanced manner, which is not a problem related to AI, but to general MMO development.

Also, nothing exists before someone makes it. Saying something is impossible just because it hasn't been done yet is basically admitting that you, personally, are incapable of doing it. Well, fortunately, there are people that are.

SOE just revealed a high quality voxel based destructibility engine, for God's sake... I don't think they care about what's "realistic".

Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity, lol

Reading many of the "arguments" in this forum was starting to depress me.

 

Tbh, I'd think that SOE's biggest concern is not how to improve the AI massively, but how to dumb it down so that the average MMO player can still survive it AND walk away thinking they were awesome...

  Vidir

Novice Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 966

8/08/13 3:29:55 PM#25

What is good mob AI , maybe if the mob estimates that it cant kill you and runs away and you have to run after it across the world if you want to kill it? Or mob estimates you could not kill it and it will run after you till end of days?

I would just want to get a good fight with a mob having a change to win the fight and if I do so I would get a nice reward,if I loose then I get punished in some way.

 

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

8/08/13 3:30:08 PM#26

There's a long way to go from "Let's improve the AI a bit" to "The AI will utterly obliterate all humans".

Generally, making AI that can beat humans is pretty damn hard, and humans will generally retain the advantage of being humans. Currently, poor AI is compensated by gigantic HP bars. Better AI generally makes mobs weaker so they make more sense.

People seriously need to stop jumping to extremes.

 

MMO AI in its current form basically does not exist.

Improving this AI isn't going to suddenly make it Skynet. Nor will it solve the research problem of true artificial intelligence, OK? Relax.

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  Alders

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1741

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

8/08/13 3:31:17 PM#27
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Alders

Players don't really even want smarter AI.

Speak for yourself.

 

To the op - we don't know what to expect from the AI.  I think you're right to be skeptical, but you could just as easily be underestimating as well.

I'd personally love smarter AI but i don't believe most players do.

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

8/08/13 3:35:54 PM#28
Originally posted by Kyleran

But seriously, players still want to be able to control the outcome 99% of the time, or it won't be "fun" for them.

Just doesn't happen, by our nature we want the deck stacked heavily in our favor and this is very true for most gamers, regardless whether it is in PVE or PVP.

Do you have anything to back this up? Like, research papers? This is a very serious claim that I believe is completely false.

I have seen very few video games that don't have any sort of challenge factor. I do not believe most people play on the easiest difficulty levels, either, many pride themselves on beating the highest difficulty. Generally, it's actually far more natural for people to desire a challenge than to desire something easy. If it's easy, they do it, are done with it, and move on, which is exactly what's killing MMORPG's these days. MMORPG's are some of the easiest video games out there right now for the leveling phase. If that's all you play, your vision of what is out there is going to be seriously clouded.

If people didn't like a challenge, Mario would never sell, Zelda would never sell, DeS/DaS would never sell, and completely fair PvP games would not exist, yet they're the most popular game type on the market.

All I can say is, what the fuck are you talking about?

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  Azoth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 531

8/08/13 3:39:23 PM#29
Originally posted by Alders
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Alders

Players don't really even want smarter AI.

Speak for yourself.

 

To the op - we don't know what to expect from the AI.  I think you're right to be skeptical, but you could just as easily be underestimating as well.

I'd personally love smarter AI but i don't believe most players do.

I am not expecting super smart AI when fighting mobs. If I want a truly unexpected outcome I PVP.

What fun would there be fighting smart AI ? They run when they can't win, they focus fire the healer or biggest threat, they dodge every attacks you throw at em cause they can react in .0003 seconds.

How does better AI make better gaming ? Someone elaborate on what kind of outcome they would like to see ?

  Arcona

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/04
Posts: 1192

8/08/13 3:40:57 PM#30
Originally posted by NaMeNaMe

And what will this do? Turn group content into a ping pong event of each individual mob attacking it's own target causing every member of the party to run around like headless chickens, ignoring each other and only focusing on themselves, aiming to keep themselves alive. 

That is poor game design. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyYmN2dzJ18

  Kiyoris

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/13
Posts: 356

8/08/13 3:41:19 PM#31

You just have to look at PVP to see what "smart AI" does.

PVP in MMO is 99% pure button mashing chaos compared to PVE which is extremely structured and balanced.

The trinity aggro system gives PVE it's structure and balance.

Simple AI allows you to add structure and strategy, it slows down combat, it is the opposite of chaos.

 

Smart AI wouldn't make games more fun or more difficult I think, it would just means player lose control of the battle field and chaos ensues, and then you get the zerging, since if all hope and structure is lost.....the only solution ppl find is DPS zerging.

 

DPS zerging rarely happens in trinity systems too when the battle is lost, but before this there is structure and most fights are won through structure and strategy.

  st3v3b0

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 133

8/08/13 3:45:34 PM#32

First of all it is StoryBricks NOT SOE handling the AI for NPC's.  Second, it is possible for it to be intelligent, but it will depend on how they approach the AI as "AI" is a very vague term.  If they are using just "AI" or optimization techniques then it likely won't be a revolutionary type of AI improvement.  Don't get me wrong it will likely be better than any MMO currently available, but it won't be perfect and it will still be easily manipulated.  Now if they go the neural network or deep learning route with their "AI" then it definitely has the possibility to be an intelligent game with mobs near capable of responding to situations based on different circumstances and ability usage.  However, that sort of AI would also be pretty processing intensive to be able to adapt on the fly to different things like group structure, abilities being used and so on.

My guess is that it will not be the latter, but more of an decision tree approach with some optimization techniques. 

  User Deleted
8/08/13 3:46:09 PM#33
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by Alders
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Alders

Players don't really even want smarter AI.

Speak for yourself.

 

To the op - we don't know what to expect from the AI.  I think you're right to be skeptical, but you could just as easily be underestimating as well.

I'd personally love smarter AI but i don't believe most players do.

I am not expecting super smart AI when fighting mobs. If I want a truly unexpected outcome I PVP.

What fun would there be fighting smart AI ? They run when they can't win, they focus fire the healer or biggest threat, they dodge every attacks you throw at em cause they can react in .0003 seconds.

How does better AI make better gaming ? Someone elaborate on what kind of outcome they would like to see ?

The abilities of the mob and reactions that are tied to it will vary based on the mob.  Instead of having a mob that could be a dog or skeleton or a human guard do basically the same attacks, you will have each one react differently based on that mobs ecology and attitudes. 

How involved all this is....we simply don't know right now.  But SOE is making it sound really involved.

 

  shadeleaf

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/06
Posts: 6

8/08/13 3:47:59 PM#34

I was at SOE Live and had a lot of time to discuss EQNext with the Dev's. I can't speak to the AI in combat. The main focus was on emergent behavior. The orc camp you found in the forest yesterday and destroyed probably won't be in the same place. The goblin's you attacked my counter with an assault on the nearest town. The orcs and goblins might team up if pressed to hard. 

Each creature is assigned motivators, likes and dislikes. Every object in the world is "tagged", all player actions stored and the inhabitants of the world react accordingly.

I spoke with the technical director about the challenge of storing and referencing so much data. They set goals for EQNext that many of the devs thought were impossible to achieve and developed some very innovative ways to achieve them.

As an example all those Voxels are converted to a polygonal mesh for a ridiculous gain in fidelity and performance.

This isn't another hype train ala Warhammer or the like. They are hell bent on delivering what they have promised.

The AI system SOE is using is developed by another company btw.  http://www.storybricks.com/

 

  Ticklepink

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/13
Posts: 122

8/08/13 3:49:28 PM#35

I've seen this script in action back in 05 in Second Life. As far as rote NPC responses are concerned; it is very deep core intensive. Not for sure how that translates over to 'mob AI".

P.S. There's usually even a pattern to randomness.

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

8/08/13 3:53:05 PM#36
Originally posted by Azoth

What fun would there be fighting smart AI ? They run when they can't win, they focus fire the healer or biggest threat, they dodge every attacks you throw at em cause they can react in .0003 seconds.

How does better AI make better gaming ? Someone elaborate on what kind of outcome they would like to see ?

Why does everyone have such an incredibly narrow view of what AI means?

AI DOES NOT mean copy human behavior and give the AI all tools to win.

AI means give enemies the ability to replicate intelligent behavior.

It's configurable. SOE even gave you an example. Dumb orc, smart orc. Orc, too, not human. Orc AI != human behavior. Boar behavior != Orc behavior. An intelligent being may run away from you, a stupid may not, it depends on what it is and what's the point. For instance, earth elementals may have 0 sense of self-preservation so they just chase you until they die. Some other kind of enemy may use hit and run tactics. Animals may be scared of fire.

AI makes better gaming because it makes the world more believable, immersive, and encounters more interesting.

There are things like basic combat AI, group combat AI, and overall world behavior AI, in the context of EQN. How it's implemented depends a lot on the world and what is in it. We don't know that yet, so it's hard to speculate. I don't know who in Norrath is supposed to do what, and all AI would do is attempt to implement behavior in accordance to lore.

Some AI is responsible just for general mod distribution. Some of it is not even strictly AI, but things like, preferring certain areas, avoiding certain areas, migration, moving in packs/flocks, starting villages, collectively attacking or retreating.

Some AI can manage things like emotion such as fear or anger which gives AI behavior that is not dependent on advantage (again, we're not writing AI to beat a human in chess, we're writing AI for a more engaging gameplay experience).

People who think AI cannot improve a game need a better imagination. The possibilities of what could be done are nearly endless.

Originally posted by Kiyoris

PVP in MMO is 99% pure chaos.

I don't know about MMO's, PvP in some really sucks, but PvP is generally not chaos for people who are organized. It's chaos for people who suck and have no idea what they're doing. Go watch a professional PvP game and tell me it's not organized.

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  Rattenmann

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/05
Posts: 342

8/08/13 3:53:12 PM#37

As pointed out in one of the very first replys:

Smart AI is not fun, it is a zergfest. I remember the colosseum fight in wow, i hated that. Mobs acted semi smart and most taktics revolved around "kill them, before they kill you", or "exploit the one weakness in AI after it was found".

No thanks. Ill prefer dumb mobs that are scripted to be beaten with good teamwork. THAT is fun. I want teamwork to matter. No Zergfest, no GW2.

MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  krulux

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 230

8/08/13 3:56:05 PM#38

Truth be told, they will probably have to dumb down most of the AI to allow people to beat the content.  And keep in mind, this is not an AI that has to contend with the real world and the infinite possibilities that come with it. 

All they have to do is write the AI for the game world, where all they have to worry about is in a controlled environment.  Add to this the capability of the AI to read your meta-data (the whole we know what you did in the environment) 

Also toss is the AI can cheat to compensate have to write massive algorithms... not cheat as in cheat, but as In it can react to your inputs the same speed at which the server reacts.  (i.e. - you cast a fireball on the client, server receives the cast, notifies the AI you cast a fireball and runs options based on your cast.. then the server sneaky server sends the acknowledgement back to your client.. all in 30-50ms. 

This give the mobs the chance to react for your spell animation for fireball ever begins.  Couple that with a very slick story-bricks implementation and voila - insta "Emergent AI"

 

  Valkaern

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/03
Posts: 513

8/08/13 4:01:09 PM#39
Originally posted by st3v3b0

First of all it is StoryBricks NOT SOE handling the AI for NPC's.  Second, it is possible for it to be intelligent, but it will depend on how they approach the AI as "AI" is a very vague term.  If they are using just "AI" or optimization techniques then it likely won't be a revolutionary type of AI improvement.  Don't get me wrong it will likely be better than any MMO currently available, but it won't be perfect and it will still be easily manipulated.  Now if they go the neural network or deep learning route with their "AI" then it definitely has the possibility to be an intelligent game with mobs near capable of responding to situations based on different circumstances and ability usage.  However, that sort of AI would also be pretty processing intensive to be able to adapt on the fly to different things like group structure, abilities being used and so on.

My guess is that it will not be the latter, but more of an decision tree approach with some optimization techniques. 

I think more people need to look into StoryBricks, there's some great early (though old) demos that give a good outline of how it works and how it can be used.

Many people here are getting hung up on AI solely as it relates to combat and not really taking in the bigger picture of what the StoryBricks system does for NPC reactions, behaviours, wants, likes/dislikes and relationships. It's pretty impressive and could easily lead to some great gameplay situations. 

The non-combat related AI is where this gets interesting and is definitely an area where this game could really shine.

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

8/08/13 4:02:27 PM#40
Originally posted by Zaradoom

Smart AI is not fun, it is a zergfest. I remember the colosseum fight in wow, i hated that. Mobs acted semi smart and most taktics revolved around "kill them, before they kill you", or "exploit the one weakness in AI after it was found".

No thanks. Ill prefer dumb mobs that are scripted to be beaten with good teamwork. THAT is fun. I want teamwork to matter. No Zergfest, no GW2.

Get this through your head.

If something is a zergfest, it's either too easy, or, YOU SUCK AT THE GAME. You never played PvP at a high level you never planned you never figured out how to actually play against people who think before they act. Drop 10 noobs into a LoL game and it will be a zerg fest. Watch a professional game, it's not a zerg fest at all. Because professionals don't suck at the game.

If you did not sit down and carefully consider who will do what before the encounter, it becomes a zergfest. You are used to that. Why? Because you already have a plan. The Trinity. That's your plan. But what do you think if the Trinity is gone, you need to come up with your own plan. That's what many of us actually like, and that's why many of us think Trinity is a dumb system for dumb people and here you are the very proof of it.

Why? Because you are NOT engaging in teamwork. You are NOT planning beforehand. You are NOT thinking.

Do you know what Trinity is? It's a strategy. Written down before you. For you. To adapt and copy. But that's it. Trinity is organized for you because they gave you. The Trinity is a version of what a group of organized PvPers can come up with before they enter an encounter. But there are so many more possibilities there than the Trinity.

Do you not realize how dumb this basically assumes you are? That you cannot encounter a group of mobs and decide, ON YOUR OWN, what you should do against that group of mobs? Are you seriously admitting, and comfortable with admitting, that you are unable to come up with a strategy with your teammates before you see an encounter?

You are basically saying you refuse to engage in critical thinking. Do you seriously want to admit this?

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

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