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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Trinity optional?

10 posts found
  diabel

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 26

whereMAbitchsAT?

 
OP  8/08/13 4:36:41 AM#1

According to SOE thanks to Storybricks the AI will make NPC's smarter in turn making the trinity not effective. Shouldn't this same logic be applied to players? It's smart to have a tank who has more HP take direct damage. If the game is truely free then players should have various tools at their disposal to manipulate trinity gameplay because it's the smart choice.

 

Let's take the tank out of the equation you are still left with a healer. In fights players take damage which means a healer should always be a good choice. Even if you heal a player and the NPC attacks you then your option is to heal yourself until the NPC get's the attention of someone else, which it should do since it's a smart NPC.

 

Let's skip to control. Stuns are always good since a NPC doing nothing and taking damage is effective. If there are more NPC's then taking some out of play seems to be a smart choice... the logical choice.

 

If the skills are available then the trinity might not be REQUIRED but it should still prove to be more effective. This is pure speculation as so far we have not seen this great new AI. The main point here is just because NPC's are smart and act on logic does not mean that players need to be considered stupid and not follow the same rules.

  TalRasha

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/20/05
Posts: 828

8/08/13 4:44:17 AM#2
Originally posted by diabel

Even if you heal a player and the NPC attacks you then your option is to heal yourself until the NPC get's the attention of someone else, which it should do since it's a smart NPC.

Why should it do that? Why would a smart NPC not continue to eliminate the healer first?

I'd say that a smart NPC would ignore the attempts to gain it's attention from someone else until the healer is down.

In such a system, the healer is the tank.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3272

8/08/13 4:46:46 AM#3

     I wish the trinity was optional, but so far it's not.. EQN devs have tried to use a dumb straw man argument to justify their direction of removing the trinity role play, but oh well.. It's like some politician giving you a lame excuse of "because you don't have healthcare, we are going to tax you more".... HUHHHHHHHHH????????.. LOL  Smart AI's and trinity combat are NOT related and for a company to ask me to drink the Kool Aid and like it...... NOT!!.. 

     Twitch action combat with no trinity..  This is nothing more then 90% smash and grab fighting..  But who knows, the game is years away from release, still in early planning and any changes are possible.. They have already rebooted the game twice...lol  third time might be a charm..

  diabel

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 26

whereMAbitchsAT?

 
OP  8/08/13 4:47:23 AM#4
Originally posted by TalRasha
Originally posted by diabel

Even if you heal a player and the NPC attacks you then your option is to heal yourself until the NPC get's the attention of someone else, which it should do since it's a smart NPC.

Why should it do that? Why would a smart NPC not continue to eliminate the healer first?

I'd say that a smart NPC would ignore the attempts to gain it's attention from someone else until the healer is down.

In such a system, the healer is the tank.

Because after a few seconds of trying and noticing the healers health keeps coming back while his is going down the smart choice is to move on? That's besides the point it's just an example we can have a full debate on what the right choice is depending on tons of different factors. The point is no matter how smart NPC's are healing is always important and so is control which only leaves tanking behind.

  TalRasha

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/20/05
Posts: 828

8/08/13 4:58:27 AM#5
Originally posted by diabel
Originally posted by TalRasha
Originally posted by diabel

Even if you heal a player and the NPC attacks you then your option is to heal yourself until the NPC get's the attention of someone else, which it should do since it's a smart NPC.

Why should it do that? Why would a smart NPC not continue to eliminate the healer first?

I'd say that a smart NPC would ignore the attempts to gain it's attention from someone else until the healer is down.

In such a system, the healer is the tank.

Because after a few seconds of trying and noticing the healers health keeps coming back while his is going down the smart choice is to move on? That's besides the point it's just an example we can have a full debate on what the right choice is depending on tons of different factors. The point is no matter how smart NPC's are healing is always important and so is control which only leaves tanking behind.

Moving on to pound on someone else will have the same effect, the healer will then heal that one instead.

Healing is only important in the trinity system. If they want the trinity system to be optional, they will have to make healing (and perhaps also controlling) less important. If not, then characters with healing or controlling abilities will be required (by the other team members) for team play.

I am curious what they are planning for EQN.

  User Deleted
8/08/13 4:58:59 AM#6

You could almost make the argument that the trinity became useless to most players when they decided they prefer to level solo and skip the raids. Since that point in time an evolution in game play has been needed. It reads like there will be some method of manipulating the trinity with multiclassing and other mechanics but really at this point we don’t know enough about the play mechanics to really judge. Will we need dedicated healers or will classes come equipped to handle the role themselves? Tanks? I will say that one point of beauty to the game play debut trailer was that it showed a pair of friends adventuring together just fine. Somehow, I actually expect that to be the way most people play.

  diabel

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 26

whereMAbitchsAT?

 
OP  8/08/13 5:02:44 AM#7
Originally posted by TalRasha
Originally posted by diabel
Originally posted by TalRasha
Originally posted by diabel

Even if you heal a player and the NPC attacks you then your option is to heal yourself until the NPC get's the attention of someone else, which it should do since it's a smart NPC.

Why should it do that? Why would a smart NPC not continue to eliminate the healer first?

I'd say that a smart NPC would ignore the attempts to gain it's attention from someone else until the healer is down.

In such a system, the healer is the tank.

Because after a few seconds of trying and noticing the healers health keeps coming back while his is going down the smart choice is to move on? That's besides the point it's just an example we can have a full debate on what the right choice is depending on tons of different factors. The point is no matter how smart NPC's are healing is always important and so is control which only leaves tanking behind.

Moving on to pound on someone else will have the same effect, the healer will then heal that one instead.

Healing is only important in the trinity system. If they want the trinity system to be optional, they will have to make healing (and perhaps also controlling) less important. If not, then characters with healing or controlling abilities will be required (by the other team members) for team play.

I am curious what they are planning for EQN.

I am also very curious on their solution for EQN because I recall reading somewhere from SOE that if you like healing you can still heal and then followed by that the trinity is not required.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3272

8/08/13 5:11:57 AM#8
Originally posted by diabel
Originally posted by TalRasha
Originally posted by diabel

Even if you heal a player and the NPC attacks you then your option is to heal yourself until the NPC get's the attention of someone else, which it should do since it's a smart NPC.

Why should it do that? Why would a smart NPC not continue to eliminate the healer first?

I'd say that a smart NPC would ignore the attempts to gain it's attention from someone else until the healer is down.

In such a system, the healer is the tank.

Because after a few seconds of trying and noticing the healers health keeps coming back while his is going down the smart choice is to move on? That's besides the point it's just an example we can have a full debate on what the right choice is depending on tons of different factors. The point is no matter how smart NPC's are healing is always important and so is control which only leaves tanking behind.

     BUT.. how does a wolf, a bear or some other DUMB animal / mob even know what a freaking healer is..  Certain mobs will never have an intelligence above ignorant so therefore the trinity system of a meat shield warrior doing " shield bash " WORKS..  Now when mobs gain a level of intelligence to make weapons, armor and have communal relations, then YES, they might act smarter.. BUT..   That opens up a whole new topic of combat.. Such as:

  • If the mob is smart enough to know what and who a healer is, then what game mechanics will be in play to STOP a mob from killing the squishy every single time.. WHAT if the player is solo?  Now what?  There is no tank anyways, so what does that cleric do? DPS for the win?   Exactly which means that every class can solo everything with no fear of losing the fight..  I don't have a problem with that because many EQ classes suffered from solo penalties..
  • So being every class / character can solo ANY mob at any time.. 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 fights will be a slaughter.. I know.. the mobs will go get help and make it a 3 on 3 fight.... Really?  How did that mob have enough time and opportunity to go get help.. I zerged and kicked his butt before he had a chance to say "oh shit"..  but..
  • assuming you run across 3 on 3 fights or similar.. again we are back to 1 on 1 ratio, and that is still just a simple zergfest.. no trinity or tactics needed..
  • The only time things might get dicey is if the fight is 3 on 5 when the mobs outnumber the players.. so now what?  Do you expect the healer to fight off 2 or 3 mobs by himself?  And if he can.. OMFG, how easy is this game?   But if he can't, and needs help.. How does it keep from dying.. There has to be some mechanic that ACTS as a CC or Tank.... And if that is the case, aren't we back to square one of "NO TANK"..
  • Some brought up the use of of rooting, walls and such to keep squishies alive.. but I have to ask, why can't the mobs do the same then? Root the warrior and mob soothe nukes him or healer from a distance..
     I just wish the devs were honest and just say, "Look we are designing this game for the twitch combat fan, and the trinity is too complex to deal with".... My parents always told me, If you tell the truth, you never have to remember your lies..  I'm not saying anyone is lying, however there are a lot of facts that are being deliberately skewed and blurred for a dark purpose.. MONEY? and that is what rubs me the wrong way..
  Markusrind

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/22/13
Posts: 323

8/08/13 5:21:59 AM#9
Originally posted by Rydeson
     I just wish the devs were honest and just say, "Look we are designing this game for the twitch combat fan, and the trinity is too complex to deal with".... My parents always told me, If you tell the truth, you never have to remember your lies..  I'm not saying anyone is lying, however there are a lot of facts that are being deliberately skewed and blurred for a dark purpose.. MONEY? and that is what rubs me the wrong way..

Or...

they are telling the truth.

They do not want to reveal stuff too early (various reasons like marketting, tech demo...could be many reasons).

They have an amazing system that they want to refine.

You are jumping to conclusions.

You have already made up your mind you don't like the game and now try finding 'problems' where there are none.

 

Seriously, there is negative and there is willful deception and you qualify on both counts in every post I have read from you.

I will retract that statement if you can prove you work for SOE, participated in the Black Box, have had hands on game time or if you are personally related to a lead dev or happen to have got drunk one night in a bar with one...otherwise shut up with you contstand negativity and perversion of what has or has not been revealed.

  jesusjuice69

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 293

8/08/13 6:20:36 AM#10

There is no such thing as trinity optional.  TESO tried to sell us that load of BS, and I never bought it!   Either you go trinity or you don't!  There is no middle ground!

 

Originally posted by diabel

According to SOE thanks to Storybricks the AI will make NPC's smarter in turn making the trinity not effective. Shouldn't this same logic be applied to players? It's smart to have a tank who has more HP take direct damage. If the game is truely free then players should have various tools at their disposal to manipulate trinity gameplay because it's the smart choice.

 

Let's take the tank out of the equation you are still left with a healer. In fights players take damage which means a healer should always be a good choice. Even if you heal a player and the NPC attacks you then your option is to heal yourself until the NPC get's the attention of someone else, which it should do since it's a smart NPC.

 

Let's skip to control. Stuns are always good since a NPC doing nothing and taking damage is effective. If there are more NPC's then taking some out of play seems to be a smart choice... the logical choice.

 

If the skills are available then the trinity might not be REQUIRED but it should still prove to be more effective. This is pure speculation as so far we have not seen this great new AI. The main point here is just because NPC's are smart and act on logic does not mean that players need to be considered stupid and not follow the same rules.

Wait, what?  If the AI was smart, then why would the boss attack anyone except the cloth wearing healers?