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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Fewer Skills, Less Actionbars - Action Combat? Is this the new trend?

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208 posts found
  Yizle

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/10
Posts: 518

8/07/13 10:45:21 PM#61
Originally posted by Rinna

I have too much crap on my bars in RIFT, so much that I'm always trying new macros to combine a bunch of skills.  I have too few skills in Neverwinter, I get bored just mash mash mashing the same number like a meat puppet.  I had too many in WoW, FFXIV has just about the right amount at level 30.

Basically anything over 2 12 slot hotbars is too much IMO.

Targeting where I have to have crosshairs on a target and swivel the camera all over the place, I liked it a lot in TERA, less in GW2, less in Neverwinter.  Now I'm over it and actually enjoy tab targeting again and target of target for healing/dps.

 

 

I can agree with this. The action combat got old fast for me in MMOs. If I want it I got plenty of other games PS2, BF3 or even Tera.

Also I would be fine with 24 skills. OF MY CHOICE not dictated by a slot. If I want to go all out DPS or support/utility skills to help my group should be my choice... What is that SOE slogan they like to keep throwing at us

Free to Play YOUR way.

  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1682

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

8/07/13 10:53:01 PM#62

thane does not approve.

i don't like that!

 

i want buttonnnnnns

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4161

Remember the blisters you'd get in the palm of your hand from the corner of that joystick?

8/07/13 11:00:58 PM#63
Originally posted by Redfeather75

 


Originally posted by GeezerGamer
I certainly hope to be proven wrong, but we can already see where having a  limited action bar coupled with abilities tied to equipped weapons, will pretty much turn into another  one or 2 ability  spammer combat system.

 

Please no more 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1  2 action combat systems.


 

It depends on how good the skill designers at SOE are.

Greatsword Skill 1:
Horizontal Slash (+damage if target burning)
->Downwards Slash(+damage if target burning)
-->Upwards Slash (launches foe if target is dazed)

Greatsword Skill 2: (20 second cooldown)
Consecrate Greatsword (30% burning on sword attacks for 10 seconds)
->Consecrate Area (End Consecrate Greatsword early to set self on fire and purge all negative conditions from allies in 10' radius)

Greatsword Skill 3: (10 second cooldown)
Leap at an enemy and perform a series of slashes (target is dazed if all hits connect)
*can be canceled by player movement during slashes phase

Greatsword Skill 4: (15 second cooldown)
Block the next attack with your Greatsword and daze the blocked attacker.
*If you are moving while blocking, block all attacks for 6 seconds, blocked attacks will transfer all your negative conditions to attacker instead.

The problem, as I just mentioned in another thread is that when you have abilities tied to the weapon, those abilities are always there, always the same. As is the case in GW2, you have some abilities that work for condition builds while others are built for crit builds, all in the same bar. Well, if you are built for crits, what need do you have for a bleed ability in one of those valuable slots in your hotbar? Then pllayers wonder why it becomes a 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 fight. Because 3 isn't useful, unless you are a condition build, then 3 is useful but 2 isn't.

Now, of course, SoE might take this into consideration and allow us to tweak the abilities that go into the hot bar, or they may make it so the abilities are tied more to the playstyle/build rather than the class. Or it may be that the classes are much more rigid so a certain class will always be melee crit, I don't know.

But knowing SoE, I'm not holding my breath.

Recently started playing SWTOR. I am posting updates to my experience in this thread:
SWTOR Experience

  Redfeather75

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/08/05
Posts: 182

8/07/13 11:09:47 PM#64


Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Redfeather75  

Originally posted by GeezerGamer I certainly hope to be proven wrong, but we can already see where having a  limited action bar coupled with abilities tied to equipped weapons, will pretty much turn into another  one or 2 ability  spammer combat system.   Please no more 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1  2 action combat systems.
  It depends on how good the skill designers at SOE are. Greatsword Skill 1: Horizontal Slash (+damage if target burning) ->Downwards Slash(+damage if target burning) -->Upwards Slash (launches foe if target is dazed) Greatsword Skill 2: (20 second cooldown) Consecrate Greatsword (30% burning on sword attacks for 10 seconds) ->Consecrate Area (End Consecrate Greatsword early to set self on fire and purge all negative conditions from allies in 10' radius) Greatsword Skill 3: (10 second cooldown) Leap at an enemy and perform a series of slashes (target is dazed if all hits connect) *can be canceled by player movement during slashes phase Greatsword Skill 4: (15 second cooldown) Block the next attack with your Greatsword and daze the blocked attacker. *If you are moving while blocking, block all attacks for 6 seconds, blocked attacks will transfer all your negative conditions to attacker instead.
The problem, as I just mentioned in another thread is that when you have abilities tied to the weapon, those abilities are always there, always the same. As is the case in GW2, you have some abilities that work for condition builds while others are built for crit builds, all in the same bar. Well, if you are built for crits, what need do you have for a bleed ability in one of those valuable slots in your hotbar? Then pllayers wonder why it becomes a 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 fight. Because 3 isn't useful, unless you are a condition build, then 3 is useful but 2 isn't.

Now, of course, SoE might take this into consideration and allow us to tweak the abilities that go into the hot bar, or they may make it so the abilities are tied more to the playstyle/build rather than the class. Or it may be that the classes are much more rigid so a certain class will always be melee crit, I don't know.

But knowing SoE, I'm not holding my breath.


Hopefully because there will be at least 40 classes, we won't see the same problem as with GW2 weapon sets. GW2 has compartmentalized itself way too much. I play a crit engi and I loathe pistol/pistol despite the fact that pistol/pistol has 1 skill I like. If there was 5 flavours of engi each using pistol/pistol differently, then I might not have that problem in GW2. XD

  CyclopsSlayer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/31/04
Posts: 531

8/07/13 11:16:27 PM#65

So, with only a couple skills there is no room for complexities and flexibility. No room for elemental resistances. No room situational skills. No room for FUN skills. 

So pretty much no room for anything but twitch-twitch action combat. Leave the brain at home, and bring the hyper-active button fingers.

 

Even day 1 EverQuest had 8 skill hot buttons. But ALSO had social buttons that could be macro'd, non-skilled attack buttons like 'Kick' and 'Bash', etc...

This current fad does the MMO genre no favors, and serves only to feed the short attention span, content locusts.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5759

8/07/13 11:52:52 PM#66
Originally posted by evilastro
If you can dumb down those 30 abilities into one damage / threat / heal priority supermacro, what's the point? Have yet to play a hotbar game that I haven't been able to supermacro. I'd rather have 8 meaningful and strategic skills like in EQN or GW1, than 30+ skills that get shoved into one button like on EQ, EQ2, WoW, Rift etc.

http://www.wowhead.com/class=2#spells

 

look at that skill list. Now compare those skills to skills in a limited action bar game like GW1 and GW2.

WoW has more unique skills. In GW1 and 2 most of those skills only proc buffs or debuffs with different durations and some have added effects like fields. But other skills across classes and even in the same class share the same effects.

 

WoW on the other hand has many unique effects per skill. and many of them are situational, yes, but thats what seperates the skilled players from the unskilled is those who can manage those situational skills. the rotational skills are a given for the avg non-newby player. so not even going to count them.

  dwarfkinglords

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 62

8/08/13 12:07:26 AM#67

the more the merrier, if you dont like that  many, then dont use it! its your choice and your screen.. 

 

that should be the rule

  User Deleted
8/08/13 12:20:49 AM#68
Regarding the skill list, if you take away the damage / heal rotation skills and the buffs, you are left with few situational skills, usually on long cooldowns. Most buffs could be handled by gear or passives, temps could be handled by adding new effects onto existing skills and so on.

I would rather have less buttons but more situational / adaptive skills. Reactive skills that change based on the current state of combat or how you use the skill. For example a rogue could get a blinding cut if a mob / person is facing them, or a backstab if they are behind. Skills could also change from stealth like in Never winter. A mage might cast a single target high damage fireball from range but the skill becomes a medium damage fire area skill with a knockback (backdraft) when used on a nearby target.

In this day and age there is no need for cluttered hotbars. You can design meaningful and reactive combat without it. They either result in macro play or hotbar watching.
  dwarfkinglords

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 62

8/08/13 12:44:06 AM#69
Originally posted by evilastro
Regarding the skill list, if you take away the damage / heal rotation skills and the buffs, you are left with few situational skills, usually on long cooldowns. Most buffs could be handled by gear or passives, temps could be handled by adding new effects onto existing skills and so on.

I would rather have less buttons but more situational / adaptive skills. Reactive skills that change based on the current state of combat or how you use the skill. For example a rogue could get a blinding cut if a mob / person is facing them, or a backstab if they are behind. Skills could also change from stealth like in Never winter. A mage might cast a single target high damage fireball from range but the skill becomes a medium damage fire area skill with a knockback (backdraft) when used on a nearby target.

In this day and age there is no need for cluttered hotbars. You can design meaningful and reactive combat without it. They either result in macro play or hotbar watching.

its not gonna be situtational , its goign to be 4, do you poeple understand how limited 4 is? its less then NW, less then GW2 less then everything and those games skills are severly lacking in the diverstiy department.. use the same skills over and over..

your example of a rouge.. 2 skills from a rouge and then if you wanna "customize" your left with 2 slots left.. thats it, if you like 3 other abilities from the other 40 something classes.. your out of luck.. you can choose only 2 more out of the hundreds..., if your a pure rouge using up 4 slots you have no room for customization, 

we dont need a bunch of bars but its insanely limited.. do you guys not understand that? at least 8 class skills and 4 weapon skills would be perfect.. it would be enough room for customizing while still keeping it limited and useful

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 2895

For the Queen!

8/08/13 12:46:25 AM#70
Action combat is a lie.  It's actually less action.  You can sit there with your mouse and 5 skills and do everything you can with 30+ skills in tab targeting...I've yet to play an "Action" combat MMO that actually had my fingers stiffening up after a raid or big fight because I'm hitting keys all over my keyboard...that's alot more action

  OldManFunk

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/06
Posts: 897

8/08/13 12:50:07 AM#71
Originally posted by Redfeather75

People who think 8 skill hotbars will be easier to master, HAVE NOT played decent 8 skill hotbar games.
And need to shut up about it.

The problem is they believe that choosing which of 8 abilities is easier than choosing which of 40 to use, but the realty is that setting those 8 abilities up requires a great deal of knowledge, strategy and skill that they are simply discounting.

  Redfeather75

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/08/05
Posts: 182

8/08/13 1:01:41 AM#72


Originally posted by OldManFunk

Originally posted by Redfeather75 People who think 8 skill hotbars will be easier to master, HAVE NOT played decent 8 skill hotbar games. And need to shut up about it.
The problem is they believe that choosing which of 8 abilities is easier than choosing which of 40 to use, but the realty is that setting those 8 abilities up requires a great deal of knowledge, strategy and skill that they are simply discounting.

They are possibly also used to games where each skill is a simple action.

  User Deleted
8/08/13 1:01:41 AM#73
Uh neverwinter had exactly the same amount of skills - 8. That's 2 at-wills, 3 encounters, 2 dailys and the tab skill. You have no idea how situational or customisable EQNs skills are yet. The whole premise of this thread is that 8 is bad and you need 6 hotbars of skills. My point is that most of those skills are just clutter. You end up with one or two macros and a few situational skills. I use 2 macros (single target and ae) and 3 situational skills raiding on EQ2. That's less than EQN proposes to use.
  User Deleted
8/08/13 1:01:41 AM#74
Uh neverwinter had exactly the same amount of skills - 8. That's 2 at-wills, 3 encounters, 2 dailys and the tab skill. You have no idea how situational or customisable EQNs skills are yet. The whole premise of this thread is that 8 is bad and you need 6 hotbars of skills. My point is that most of those skills are just clutter. You end up with one or two macros and a few situational skills. I use 2 macros (single target and ae) and 3 situational skills raiding on EQ2. That's less than EQN proposes to use.
  dwarfkinglords

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 62

8/08/13 1:07:56 AM#75
Originally posted by evilastro
Uh neverwinter had exactly the same amount of skills - 8. That's 2 at-wills, 3 encounters, 2 dailys and the tab skill. You have no idea how situational or customisable EQNs skills are yet. The whole premise of this thread is that 8 is bad and you need 6 hotbars of skills. My point is that most of those skills are just clutter. You end up with one or two macros and a few situational skills. I use 2 macros (single target and ae) and 3 situational skills raiding on EQ2. That's less than EQN proposes to use.

honestly ive said a bunch of times you dont need a lot of hot bars just more variaty in a customization game with freakin 40 classes to choose from...

so why everytime you jump in, you go to the extreme and state poeple who want more skills want 6 hot bars of skills? and clutter up the screen? whats the reasoning behind that when i clearly didn't say that. 

i dont care how much skills you use, i dont care if you use just 1 button because your that skilled... its the choice, and stop bringing up 6 hot bars when nobody is asking for that

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 650

8/08/13 1:26:52 AM#76
Originally posted by Talint

Yesterday I posed this question - http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/392500/Why-Are-People-Against-the-Holy-Trinity-in-Games.html - asking why people are against the "Holy Trinity"

Today I will pose this question.  Is the new trend of MMOs, action oriented, fewer skills,  and less hotbars?  If you look at the old juggernauts of the MMO world, EQ 1, EQ 2, and Vanilla WoW, you literally were able to use all of your skills (usually 30+) at any given point.  You were not limited to 8, 10, or 12.  Fast forward 10 - 12 years later and you see games like GW2 with this action styled dodging and rolling around, while only being able to use a set amount of your skills during a single combat period.

Is this the way MMOs are leaning?  What I think to be a more casualized, less intensive, easier learning style?  Are MMO companies attempting to make combat more fun?  Or are they instead trying to make it easier for the younger (or older) gamer?

I look forward to hearing back from all of you,

Talint

Picked this at random http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMRRNXegz8s

You can see what he is spamming and clicking...while standing in place as an "action" class. This is what the trinity, tab targeting, and rows and rows of abilities gives for a challenge?

  OldManFunk

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/06
Posts: 897

8/08/13 1:34:54 AM#77
Originally posted by Allein
Originally posted by Talint

Yesterday I posed this question - http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/392500/Why-Are-People-Against-the-Holy-Trinity-in-Games.html - asking why people are against the "Holy Trinity"

Today I will pose this question.  Is the new trend of MMOs, action oriented, fewer skills,  and less hotbars?  If you look at the old juggernauts of the MMO world, EQ 1, EQ 2, and Vanilla WoW, you literally were able to use all of your skills (usually 30+) at any given point.  You were not limited to 8, 10, or 12.  Fast forward 10 - 12 years later and you see games like GW2 with this action styled dodging and rolling around, while only being able to use a set amount of your skills during a single combat period.

Is this the way MMOs are leaning?  What I think to be a more casualized, less intensive, easier learning style?  Are MMO companies attempting to make combat more fun?  Or are they instead trying to make it easier for the younger (or older) gamer?

I look forward to hearing back from all of you,

Talint

Picked this at random http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMRRNXegz8s

You can see what he is spamming and clicking...while standing in place as an "action" class. This is what the trinity, tab targeting, and rows and rows of abilities gives for a challenge?

Clearly you failed to understand how much skill it took to avoid those other 36 skills of his 40 that he never had to use.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

8/08/13 2:28:52 AM#78
Originally posted by evilastro
Uh neverwinter had exactly the same amount of skills - 8. That's 2 at-wills, 3 encounters, 2 dailys and the tab skill. You have no idea how situational or customisable EQNs skills are yet. The whole premise of this thread is that 8 is bad and you need 6 hotbars of skills. My point is that most of those skills are just clutter. You end up with one or two macros and a few situational skills. I use 2 macros (single target and ae) and 3 situational skills raiding on EQ2. That's less than EQN proposes to use.

Neverwinter felt like you were controlling a very simple puppet. I really hope they don't emulate NWO's combat. There is some evidence to the contrary however.

Source:(http://www.eqnexus.com/2013/08/soe-live-day-3-everquest-next-landmark-updates/

 

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4161

Remember the blisters you'd get in the palm of your hand from the corner of that joystick?

8/08/13 8:21:56 AM#79

What I don't "get" is, Why is there so much resistance to having more options? I have nothing against minimalism, especially if it contributes to efficiency. If you have figured out how to run with a single hot bar, that's awesome. Many players have been doing that in WoW and other games for years. But even still, why would you not want the option to add another? I don't get that. There is no logical reason why anyone should be against the idea that if you like 1 bar, run 1 bar, if you like 2 bars, run with 2 bars so long as the game is designed to be functional either way. In this instance, no one comes away feeling like they are getting screwed. But when players are told they are getting 1 bar and that's it. You now have 2 groups. Those that like and those that don't. But those that don't have no options. In the other scenario, everyone has the option to play how they want and some of you guys don't see that. It really is a bad decision to do it this way.

Recently started playing SWTOR. I am posting updates to my experience in this thread:
SWTOR Experience

  EvolvedMonky

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/08
Posts: 562

8/08/13 9:14:06 AM#80

Not a fan of the new action combat. Even though I say action combat its less actiony than old style 40+ button mmo combat.

Its like saying Mario smash Bros has more action than Soul Calibur. Because you have less combos and buttons....

I liked GW2, I liked how they did PvE, I saw promise in there WvW. But I dont play the game cause the combat sucks. Infact I liked SWTOR pvp and pve combat more than GW2. Even though GW2 had more interesting pve.

It would be one thing if your limited abilities didnt have cooldown timers like the 40+ ability games. I hated how I just spamed 2 buttons. TSW would have been alot more fun if instead of having 1 or 2 combos to use to do big damage over and over and over and over the same Fn  thing level after level but wait we add dodge in so its omg so fun now. Pfft ya right.

If you think the current trend is good action combat then I hate to say this cause I feel dirty for it. Buy a console and play some of those action games.  Those are fun not GW2 or TSW or I guess EQN combat now.

If they were making Soul Calibur or Tekken like combat for the serious hardcore MMO's and Arkahm Assylum or Assasins Creed for the f2p or SWTOR type games then that would be something. But the combat there making now feels like something a WII U Dev made up.

 

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