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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." - member of EQN AI team

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407 posts found
  User Deleted
8/07/13 5:08:26 PM#281
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by Adrazahn
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.

Every game has that - get over it.
 

EQ has no zerg whatsoever, none, and the reason is the trinity system and the dependency and controlled and strategic combat it creates.

The EQ I played from 1999-2003 sure as hell had zerging. In fact, EQ players invented the term!

 

Does it now?

Well technically he is right about it having zerg but the term originated around the same period of time in Starcraft 1 from the FOO strategy which later evolved into the 6 pool strategy (namely rushing to push out lings with a sprinkling of hydras should shit have gotten tits up).

  Meteora69

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 1

8/07/13 5:33:29 PM#282
Originally posted by NagelRitter

...  and the Trinity gives you rigid roles that never change. The real world doesn't work like that.

PvP is the representation of Trinity-less combat and PvP is not zergy unless, again, you suck.

 

Of course, RL has a higher degree of specialization than any mmorpg, especially in the most advanced technological countries, and in the modern army, too.

 

PvP may be Trinity-less, but it's not "the representation". If you ever played WAR you would know that you will be more successful in PvP when you setup your party/army around the Trinity, and play your role. Of course, with much more people on one side, zerg will do it. But "structured/organized" PvP is so much more fun, and you rip apart your opponents even if you are outnumbered (up to a certain degree). I played a tank for a while and it really worked fine and was fun.

 

If things become zergy, then I see two reasons: The players suck ... or/and the devs.

 

When it comes to EQN: Don't know why they need to remove the Trinity. It's not for their NPCs AI. Maybe they just want to do it ... reason enough I would say, it's their game. Whether it will work and will be fun ... we will see. Hard to estimate atm.

 

Meteora

  Aabel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 32

8/07/13 5:35:22 PM#283
Originally posted by Shadowguy64

 Does it now?

Yup, it's actually more prevalent now with the addition of Mercenaries to the game. A group of 6 can split into two groups and each player pops a merc out to help take a named on.

  Waterlily

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2890

8/07/13 5:37:40 PM#284
Originally posted by Aabel
Originally posted by Shadowguy64

 Does it now?

Yup, it's actually more prevalent now with the addition of Mercenaries to the game. A group of 6 can split into two groups and each player pops a merc out to help take a named on.

What does that have to do with zerging?

  Waterlily

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2890

8/07/13 5:39:57 PM#285
Originally posted by Adrazahn

The EQ I played from 1999-2003 sure as hell had zerging. In fact, EQ players invented the term!

what...

  Aabel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 32

8/07/13 5:41:32 PM#286
Originally posted by Meteora69

 When it comes to EQN: Don't know why they need to remove the Trinity. It's not for their NPCs AI. Maybe they just want to do it ... reason enough I would say, it's their game. Whether it will work and will be fun ... we will see. Hard to estimate atm.

 

Meteora

 The roles of tank, dps and healer are still there, and will be there in more flavors than currently present. What is GONE is the 'taunt' button or magic threat abilities. If you want the AI to attack a particular character you have to create the scenario where that is it's best option. For example we saw two interesting wizard abilities, the one that made a wall of icy looking crystals and one that gathered enemies up and teleported the wizard away. Those two abilities could be used in a sequence, with coordination with the battle cat where the kobolds would be better off attacking the warrior as they would be blocked off from attacking the wizard.

  Aabel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 32

8/07/13 5:42:44 PM#287
Originally posted by Waterlily

What does that have to do with zerging?

 It's throwing more bodies at a situation, computer controlled ones even.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1471

8/07/13 5:44:31 PM#288
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Adrazahn

The EQ I played from 1999-2003 sure as hell had zerging. In fact, EQ players invented the term!

what...

Lol. Yeah.. everything was invented from EQ players.

  Waterlily

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2890

8/07/13 5:46:14 PM#289
Originally posted by Aabel
Originally posted by Waterlily

What does that have to do with zerging?

 It's throwing more bodies at a situation.

That's not zerging.

Plenty of mobs in Everquest are meant to be taken down with multiple groups, even outside of instances. Queen in TSS, Hulcror and Velitorkin in WoS, they're not raid mobs, they're multi-group mobs.

Using more than 6 people isn't zerging, that has always been possible in any game.

  Aabel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 32

8/07/13 6:01:05 PM#290
Originally posted by Waterlily

That's not zerging.

Plenty of mobs in Everquest are meant to be taken down with multiple groups, even outside of instances. Queen in TSS, Hulcror and Velitorkin in WoS, they're not raid mobs, they're multi-group mobs.

Using more than 6 people isn't zerging, that has always been possible in any game.

 Winning through overwhelming numbers isn't zerging? that's news to me. Anyway the mobs you mentioned are all raid targets, particularly when they were current content during omens of war, and since they weren't instanced you could bring more people to kill them than you could to an instanced raid, you could 'zerg' them so to say.

 People zerg in EQ, lots of people do it, particularly when getting a named in non instanced group content and nobody has raid gear. 1 or 2 DPS dropping group so more heal mercs can be popped is not uncommon, it's also not uncommon to do it so DPS mercs can be popped.

 It's no secret that most group content mobs are tuned for one group, so yes it's zerging when you reform your group to allow for mercs to take it down.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12255

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

8/07/13 6:13:52 PM#291
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Adrazahn

The EQ I played from 1999-2003 sure as hell had zerging. In fact, EQ players invented the term!

what...

Shhhh... their heads will explode if they find out that games other than EQ ever existed. Be gentle if you tread those waters.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Waterlily

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2890

8/07/13 6:17:49 PM#292
Originally posted by Aabel

 Anyway the mobs you mentioned are all raid targets

We did those mobs with 2 groups during OOW, so did most guilds. Only if you were far behind in progression did you need to bring a raid for them. Most of the time we ran past them since the loot on them was worse than what you could get in PoTime even.

  cheyane

Elite Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2390

8/07/13 6:20:31 PM#293
I thought Zerg is from starcraft. It was a race in starcraft and the way they came at you got called that. EQ never invented that word.

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  Arzhur

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/09
Posts: 3

8/07/13 6:24:13 PM#294

I am not going to despair yet, nor will I until I play EQN but I do remain a skeptic. If there was anything that made EQ arguably the best MMORPG of all time it was the group dynamic.  If you didn’t have a tank, a healer, a enchanter, a puller and dps classes in a tight 6 man group you were screwed in a dungeon. Furthermore it took some time and skill development to be a good support class. How do you move away from this without having support classes be trivial to play?

 

 

  Aabel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 32

8/07/13 6:31:20 PM#295
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Aabel

 Anyway the mobs you mentioned are all raid targets

We did those mobs with 2 groups during OOW, so did most guilds. Only if you were far behind in progression did you need to bring a raid for them. Most of the time we ran past them since the loot on them was worse than what you could get in PoTime even.

Chances are then your guild referred to anyone who couldn't take them down with 2 groups as 'zergs'.

  Shadowguy64

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/13
Posts: 880

8/07/13 6:31:55 PM#296
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Adrazahn

The EQ I played from 1999-2003 sure as hell had zerging. In fact, EQ players invented the term!

what...

Shhhh... their heads will explode if they find out that games other than EQ ever existed. Be gentle if you tread those waters.

 

It's true...and based on some posts...some found out already...

  Arcticnoon

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/13
Posts: 146

8/07/13 6:38:56 PM#297
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

https://twitter.com/Psychochild/status/364200566840238080

"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

 

Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

Here's my two cents. Imagine you are a mob in any mmo. Primitive or advance AI, you only have 1 of 4 choices when 5 guys are attacking you.

#1 Run.

#2 Call for help.

#3 Attack the biggest guy in the group hoping to defeat him and demoralized the other "softer" members.

#4 Attack the "softest" member killing him quickly to shift the odds in your favor.

Options 1 and 2 have been done before in many mmos. We have seen mobs retreat when their health gets low. We've seen them call for help. Nothing new. These are simply fixed with crowd control.

Option 3 is the holy trinity. Focus on the guy dealing the most damage or generating the most hate. Which in a perfect world is always the tank.

Option 4 would be somewhat new, but would end the same way GW2 does.... in a Zergfest. If the AI goes after the softer DDs or mages the tankier members are still going to try and pull it off, or everyone is just going to zerg it down before it kills anyone.

A fifth option which I almost don't even care to mention is something we say in Borderlands 2. When fighting a mob, if you don't kill it fast enough it evolves into something bigger and badder. Still in the end it again becomes option 4. A Zergfest.

There are no other options in this scenario. So before we get all silly-hyped on more of SOEs promises to Reinvent the Wheel lets step back and realize that SOE just isn't that smart, and we hopefully aren't dumb enough to believe they are.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3734

RIP City of Heroes!

8/07/13 6:57:34 PM#298
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by tordurbar
Originally posted by CalmOceans

The thing that is primitive is action combat.

It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.

And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

 

So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market.

 

On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community.

 

Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"

/this 

/notthis

I don't know what type of critical thinking schools have taught over the years but apparently "not much".

I can easily imagine an "action combat" version of crowd control, several different versions of healing, one of which requires healing "after a battle and not during"  and any number of ways that you can make players require the assistance of other classes.

But apparently, because some games adopted certain ways of doing things, no other way is even remotely possible.

Or maybe we just don't have any "outside the box" thinkers here.

Do you see any evidence in the combat videos we have seen so far that show this out of the box AI thinking?  If they have a proof of concept video (assuming they are pros) they should prove it to us by showing releasing the video.  If not, it could just be pie in the sky.

  Nephelai

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/29/13
Posts: 164

8/07/13 7:16:00 PM#299
Originally posted by Meteora69
Originally posted by NagelRitter

...  and the Trinity gives you rigid roles that never change. The real world doesn't work like that.

PvP is the representation of Trinity-less combat and PvP is not zergy unless, again, you suck.

 

That's just rubbish - I've got news for you, the real world does revolve around the majority of the population sticking to roles they know well.

 

PvP in MMO's is all about zerg. The number of times I have been able to 1v1 a person is minimal compared to the times I've been 1v2 or more. In organised team PvP the whole strategy revolves around isolating or setting up a single person so that they can be burned (zerged) down.

 

I'm not saying its right / wrong but you cant just use rubbish as your supporting argument.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  jesteralways

Elite Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 596

8/07/13 7:19:48 PM#300
"All Hail Storybricks" then? SOE practically borrowed Storybricks to implement AI in EQN. SOE never had the ability to create something of this proportion and that is why they leaned toward Storybricks. If the copy-paster can create something like that, i wonder what the real deal would be like. Waiting for Storybricks now.

i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.

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