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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." - member of EQN AI team

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407 posts found
  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1128

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

8/06/13 10:23:56 PM#161
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.

Every game has that - get over it.
 

EQ has no zerg whatsoever, none, and the reason is the trinity system and the dependency and controlled and strategic combat it creates.

EQ couldnt have a zerg based on the limitations of combat.  Mobs actually took time to burn and kill.  All of them.  The trinity is not a good reason.

  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1128

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

8/06/13 10:29:24 PM#162
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

https://twitter.com/Psychochild/status/364200566840238080

"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

 

The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

Lets separate roles from trinity because they are different.  You can play a role such as a warrior but not have a trinity.  Everyone is presenting the same argument that the trinity is required which does not but limit what you imagine to be possible.

I don't want to be limited and want to see a game without the trinity.  Those who love the trinity (I do) but cant get over not using it should just stop following this game because its not going to be there.

Completely agree with the Op and what I have been saying since Aug 2.  The AI is going to change the game simply because we have never played anything like it.  If it 'works' or is 'good' is going to be completely subjective to what each of us as a gamer likes.  It doesnt take a brain surgeon to figure out that those who love the trinity aren't going to complain about it. But I welcome that experience over re-hashing what I have been playing since 1999.

  dzoni87

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/08
Posts: 553

8/06/13 10:33:32 PM#163
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.

What the guy said :D

Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online

  KhinRunite

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/10
Posts: 897

8/06/13 10:43:21 PM#164

"Stood the test of time"...more like it's "outdated". The more action-oriented the game is, the more incompatible it is for a hard trinity system.

It's not like GW2 was ALWAYS zergy; the experience changes depending who you're around with. It has the potential to be the better or worse experience, compared to a Trinity based system that I will ALWAYS find dull and predictable in the sense that I always know what I'm there for, and what my contributions will be.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5249

8/06/13 11:15:42 PM#165
Originally posted by Horusra
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
Originally posted by Nephelai

Ignoring human nature will fail or at least only attract a small following. If you throw 1000 people onto a desert island only a hand full will take initiative an lead, a few less will want to help coordinate and the rest of the mass will be happy to follow. This behavior runs thru everything in life including games and is what the holy trinity mirrors.

 

Making it so "everyone" can do "everything" just goes against human nature and will only attract a small population. It doesn't even fit realistically. Imagine if I was that boss and I had five people attacking me what would I do? I would kill the high threat to my life first and then move on. I wouldn't stop or randomly change my target for no reason.

 

Under the trinity system the boss or mobs attacking the "highest threat" to their life (albeit a mechanic) at least makes sense in the real world. I've said it before that tanks threat mechanic should be pure dps to make it even more realistic i.e tanks do the highest damage hence attract the most attention as that are the highest threat ot life. As a bonus would create more tanks. 

EQN isn't getting rid of roles though, just the strict holy-trinity roles. They've stated multiple times in the SOE Live panels that they don't want to get rid of roles in EQN.

The problem with the trinity system is that it just wouldn't work with the robust AI system they have in place. An intelligent mob won't just focus a single party member while 10 other guys are bashing it - that is predictable and primitive AI. Think of it like PvP, a real player will be constantly changing his targets based on his situation. Storybricks wants to make npc AI much more lifelike. Traditional threat/aggro mechanics just won't work in this game.

Constantly changing targets is a good way to fail.  You do a little damage to everyone, but kill no one. 

That sounds like GW2 in reverse. Instead of the players running from mob to mob to mob just to get tags without focusing on killing the target, so they can get credit for loot,  now the mobs will be doing that to the players.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  azarhal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 589

8/06/13 11:30:53 PM#166
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

https://twitter.com/Psychochild/status/364200566840238080

"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

 

The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

Old D&D doesn't have the trinity, that was added in the latest edition (4th which mmo-ized the ruleset and players hate it so much that the 5th version is already being made). D&D 2nd and 3rd Editions do not have aggro management (GM and dices decide), there are no taunts in the rulesets. Healing is mostly done outside of combat (in combat is dangerous because your Cleric will probably get hit while trying to heal). Everyone deal damage. Multiclassing exist as well and with it come sharing abilities. The mobs are as stupid or intelligent as the GM decide too.

In D&D, roles don't exist because the classes are dedicated to something. The role exist because the encounters require tactics to resolve and the players can build their characters to come up with any tactics. The combat is also slower so you can come up with brilliant ideas in a fight depending on your build.

In D&D, a Wizard isn't necessarily a DPS, he could be a CCer or a debuffer/buffer. He could do a little bit of everything too. A Cleric isn't just a out-of-combat healbot, they make awesome meatshield and damage dealers too (my favorite D&D class).

  Nephelai

Novice Member

Joined: 1/29/13
Posts: 168

8/06/13 11:44:15 PM#167
Originally posted by Rydeson

I could live with that reasoning..  The man stabbing me the most that is close to me gets MY attention..  His buddy might be throwing rocks at me, but in the heat of a fight, that man with the knife is my primary focus.. Range DPS would carry less threat, and other melee dps like a rogue has to select his attack moments.. Healers carry on as usual, no change..  And I really get tired hearing smart AI's.. Smart AI's should only apply to intelligent humanoids, not a pack of wolves or a bear.. I personally would like to see the trinity (role system) expanded to include  more CC, better buffing and debuffing.. and utility support

 

See you're dumbing it down already. You're scripting the fight just like trinity. What if the ranged guy has an M16? You're just going to sit there and fight the guy with a measly knife while the guy at range  cuts you to pieces?  Why would a ranged dps carry less threat? You're scripting the encounters to suite your idea of how you would like the fight to go to give YOU the most satisfaction.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/06/13 11:45:58 PM#168
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

https://twitter.com/Psychochild/status/364200566840238080

"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

You're confusing the presence of roles with the function of the trinity. It did not exist in PnP RPGs unless your DM was a complete idiot, because it certainly wasn't in the manuals. The Trinity can be traced right back to DikuMUD, which is the great grandfather of EQ, WOW and most other mainstream MMOs. 

Do some research before calling others ignorant. ;)

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1131

8/06/13 11:48:18 PM#169
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

https://twitter.com/Psychochild/status/364200566840238080

"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

You're confusing the presence of roles with the function of the trinity. It did not exist in PnP RPGs unless your DM was a complete idiot, because it certainly wasn't in the manuals. The Trinity can be traced right back to DikuMUD, which is the great grandfather of EQ, WOW and most other mainstream MMOs. 

Do some research before calling others ignorant. ;)

Soon as you learn to read. I didn't say the trinity was used in PnP RPGs. I said it was used longer than even D&D. Meaning, it preceeds D&D


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  Nephelai

Novice Member

Joined: 1/29/13
Posts: 168

8/06/13 11:51:56 PM#170
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

What you described sounds like a much more interesting mechanic than traditional tank-heal-dps roles. You're making assumptions that these sort of encounters would only "smash groups" but how do we know that? I'm sure SOE is quite capable of designing intelligent mob encounters that are very possible to take down, you and many people seem to be stuck in the traditional mindset of only one design.

We haven't seen this design in context so we don't know how well it will work.

 

You don't need to see it. If any programmer designed a boss with more health and more control and more power than players THEN gave it the best PvP instincts it would destroy groups. The only way is to give it faults that can be exploited by real players which makes the argument of trinity v no trinity redundant. The debate is solely about preferred style of play only. One group likes control and roles the other likes out of control and the "feeling" of no roles. Human nature is the former.

 

  DSWBeef

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/09
Posts: 792

8/06/13 11:53:47 PM#171
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

https://twitter.com/Psychochild/status/364200566840238080

"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

You're confusing the presence of roles with the function of the trinity. It did not exist in PnP RPGs unless your DM was a complete idiot, because it certainly wasn't in the manuals. The Trinity can be traced right back to DikuMUD, which is the great grandfather of EQ, WOW and most other mainstream MMOs. 

Do some research before calling others ignorant. ;)

Soon as you learn to read. I didn't say the trinity was used in PnP RPGs. I said it was used longer than even D&D. Meaning, it preceeds D&D

Do you have any proof of this? I talked to my friends father who played these back in the 70s and hes never heard of the trinity, tank, healer, or dps. D&D for entered publication in 1974 and I highly doubt they used the trinity in the 60s.

Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim Dawn
Waiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  ThomasN7

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6672

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

8/07/13 12:05:05 AM#172
We already had a game that had the non trinity system, it failed miserably. Do you actually think this will fair any better ? I don't. Once proven a failed system players turn away from it despite some still believing this type of combat set up actually works.
  ice-vortex

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 921

8/07/13 12:27:32 AM#173
Originally posted by ThomasN7
We already had a game that had the non trinity system, it failed miserably. Do you actually think this will fair any better ? I don't. Once proven a failed system players turn away from it despite some still believing this type of combat set up actually works.

So which game was that? Ultima Online? Asheon's Call? Guild Wars 1?

  User Deleted
8/07/13 12:33:02 AM#174


Originally posted by DSWBeef

Originally posted by Sephiroso

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Sephiroso

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Aceshighhhh Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today: https://twitter.com/Psychochild/status/364200566840238080 "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair."  Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.
One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.
Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI. The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.
You're confusing the presence of roles with the function of the trinity. It did not exist in PnP RPGs unless your DM was a complete idiot, because it certainly wasn't in the manuals. The Trinity can be traced right back to DikuMUD, which is the great grandfather of EQ, WOW and most other mainstream MMOs.  Do some research before calling others ignorant. ;)
Soon as you learn to read. I didn't say the trinity was used in PnP RPGs. I said it was used longer than even D&D. Meaning, it preceeds D&D
Do you have any proof of this? I talked to my friends father who played these back in the 70s and hes never heard of the trinity, tank, healer, or dps. D&D for entered publication in 1974 and I highly doubt they used the trinity in the 60s.

Everybody knows Pinball invented the trinity. Flippers are the tank, the ball is dps, and that pocket full of quarters is your heals. Where do you think the term pocket healer comes from?

  arbacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/11
Posts: 38

8/07/13 12:40:33 AM#175
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by CalmOceans

The thing that is primitive is action combat.

It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.

And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

 

So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market.

 

On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community.

 

Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"

The current action mmos still use the same primitive AI thats in trinity based games, which is threat dependent.  In GW2 the mobs still attack the ones with the most threat which is still determined by whos doing the most damage or doing the most healing, its still no different from a trinity system.  Smart AI is when the mobs attack based on whats more strategic to their long term survival and what can they do with their abilities to make that happen all based on what kind of enemy(s) and surrounding environment.

And there are mmos with action combat and smart AI that doesnt end up in zerg fest coming out like the Division for example.  GW2s mistake is that it was trying to be half and half. Theres lots of team work going on in that gameplay video against the AI.

 

That is where you are just wrong holy trinity works regardless of intelligence of AI. You just have to use intelligence in designing the holy trinity rather than lazy design and just mirroring enough skills across classes, so that defined rolls are destroyed. Threat is in a dumb AI and a smart AI don't let their marketing terms fool you. AI has to figure out who it should attack a dumb AI is easily manipulated by lame skills like taunt a smart AI will need much more reaction and engagement from players to control where it's damage is funneled. Now the damage I refur to as funneled can be the enemy's focused/melee damage or aoe/ranged damage. Focused damage will obviously be harder to avoid if its not dumbed down so a party has to soak it up somehow(tank?), AOE/Ranged damage however it makes sense to just avoid most of it.

  Demalis

Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/13
Posts: 134

8/07/13 12:44:31 AM#176
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by DSWBeef

Originally posted by Sephiroso

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Sephiroso

Originally posted by Loktofeit



Everybody knows Pinball invented the trinity. Flippers are the tank, the ball is dps, and that pocket full of quarters is your heals. Where do you think the term pocket healer comes from?

 

I endorse this comment.

  camphor1

Novice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 19

8/07/13 12:47:24 AM#177
Originally posted by arbacus
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by CalmOceans

The thing that is primitive is action combat.

It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.

And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

 

So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market.

 

On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community.

 

Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"

The current action mmos still use the same primitive AI thats in trinity based games, which is threat dependent.  In GW2 the mobs still attack the ones with the most threat which is still determined by whos doing the most damage or doing the most healing, its still no different from a trinity system.  Smart AI is when the mobs attack based on whats more strategic to their long term survival and what can they do with their abilities to make that happen all based on what kind of enemy(s) and surrounding environment.

And there are mmos with action combat and smart AI that doesnt end up in zerg fest coming out like the Division for example.  GW2s mistake is that it was trying to be half and half. Theres lots of team work going on in that gameplay video against the AI.

 

That is where you are just wrong holy trinity works regardless of intelligence of AI. You just have to use intelligence in designing the holy trinity rather than lazy design and just mirroring enough skills across classes, so that defined rolls are destroyed. Threat is in a dumb AI and a smart AI don't let their marketing terms fool you. AI has to figure out who it should attack a dumb AI is easily manipulated by lame skills like taunt a smart AI will need much more reaction and engagement from players to control where it's damage is funneled.

taunts were removed because threat the mechanic is removed and without threat there is no trinity. their is only aggro now, the A.I. will change targets because their is no secret number that holds threat it is priority based. the diffrence being threat can be built up if you attack something and take off 80% of its health by yourself you will have aggro. with prioritys the hit that took off 80% of its health only takes aggro if takeing damage is the highest thing on it current priority if its priorty is it being stun locked or unable to do damage due to healing  it will solve its own damage problem first then try and kill you. that innitial hit also will not matter after a short period as it will deem you as no longer a worry  assumeing you were to stop attacking 

put simply if 1 damage is 1 threat in a normal mmo

tank has 10,000 threat

mage nukes for 100,000 damage

mage has agro

tank is first on priority list 

mage nukes for 100,000 damage

mage has agro 

mage gets hit for 100 damage

healer heals for 100 damage

mage gets hit for 100 damage

healer heals for 100 damage

healer has aggro

mage nukes for 100,000 damage

healer still has agroo

etc etc

numbers obviously arnt perfect TLDR threat builds priority doesent

  arbacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/11
Posts: 38

8/07/13 12:57:19 AM#178
Originally posted by camphor1
Originally posted by arbacus
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by CalmOceans

The thing that is primitive is action combat.

It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.

And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

 

So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market.

 

On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community.

 

Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"

The current action mmos still use the same primitive AI thats in trinity based games, which is threat dependent.  In GW2 the mobs still attack the ones with the most threat which is still determined by whos doing the most damage or doing the most healing, its still no different from a trinity system.  Smart AI is when the mobs attack based on whats more strategic to their long term survival and what can they do with their abilities to make that happen all based on what kind of enemy(s) and surrounding environment.

And there are mmos with action combat and smart AI that doesnt end up in zerg fest coming out like the Division for example.  GW2s mistake is that it was trying to be half and half. Theres lots of team work going on in that gameplay video against the AI.

 

That is where you are just wrong holy trinity works regardless of intelligence of AI. You just have to use intelligence in designing the holy trinity rather than lazy design and just mirroring enough skills across classes, so that defined rolls are destroyed. Threat is in a dumb AI and a smart AI don't let their marketing terms fool you. AI has to figure out who it should attack a dumb AI is easily manipulated by lame skills like taunt a smart AI will need much more reaction and engagement from players to control where it's damage is funneled.

taunts were removed because threat the mechanic is removed and without threat there is no trinity. their is only aggro now, the A.I. will change targets because their is no secret number that holds threat it is priority based. the diffrence being threat can be built up if you attack something and take off 80% of its health by yourself you will have aggro. with prioritys the hit that took off 80% of its health only takes aggro if takeing damage is the highest thing on it current priority if its priorty is it being stun locked or unable to do damage due to healing  it will solve its own damage problem first then try and kill you

the trinity was removed not because taunt was removed it was removed to dumb down gameplay threat and agro are the same thing trinity works fine without taunt a tank mearly has to have more creative skills like snares interrupts dashes blocks meathook etc.. they do not need dps to hold threat thats a stupid dev crutch they need inolved gameplay to force monsters to take them out first not cheat codes like taunt.

Instead what we got are dev cheat coads of mirroring roles. Defeating the purpose of defined roles if you can do hybrid your character to not need to cooperate with others of course you are going to. They clearly have no intension of making content hard enough to need a tank or dedicated healer they basically have told us this.

  camphor1

Novice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 19

8/07/13 1:03:16 AM#179
Originally posted by arbacus
Originally posted by camphor1
Originally posted by arbacus
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by CalmOceans

The thing that is primitive is action combat.

It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.

And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

 

So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market.

 

On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community.

 

Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"

The current action mmos still use the same primitive AI thats in trinity based games, which is threat dependent.  In GW2 the mobs still attack the ones with the most threat which is still determined by whos doing the most damage or doing the most healing, its still no different from a trinity system.  Smart AI is when the mobs attack based on whats more strategic to their long term survival and what can they do with their abilities to make that happen all based on what kind of enemy(s) and surrounding environment.

And there are mmos with action combat and smart AI that doesnt end up in zerg fest coming out like the Division for example.  GW2s mistake is that it was trying to be half and half. Theres lots of team work going on in that gameplay video against the AI.

 

That is where you are just wrong holy trinity works regardless of intelligence of AI. You just have to use intelligence in designing the holy trinity rather than lazy design and just mirroring enough skills across classes, so that defined rolls are destroyed. Threat is in a dumb AI and a smart AI don't let their marketing terms fool you. AI has to figure out who it should attack a dumb AI is easily manipulated by lame skills like taunt a smart AI will need much more reaction and engagement from players to control where it's damage is funneled.

taunts were removed because threat the mechanic is removed and without threat there is no trinity. their is only aggro now, the A.I. will change targets because their is no secret number that holds threat it is priority based. the diffrence being threat can be built up if you attack something and take off 80% of its health by yourself you will have aggro. with prioritys the hit that took off 80% of its health only takes aggro if takeing damage is the highest thing on it current priority if its priorty is it being stun locked or unable to do damage due to healing  it will solve its own damage problem first then try and kill you

the trinity was removed not because taunt was removed it was removed to dumb down gameplay threat and agro are the same thing trinity works fine without taunt a tank mearly has to have more creative skills like snares interrupts dashes blocks meathook etc.. they do not need dps to hold threat thats a stupid dev crutch they need inolved gameplay to force monsters to take them out first not cheat codes like taunt.

Instead what we got are dev cheat coads of mirroring roles. Defeating the purpose of defined roles if you can do hybrid your character to not need to cooperate with others of course you are going to. They clearly have no intension of making content hard enough to need a tank or dedicated healer they basically have told us this.

threat is a mechanic aggro is a state if you are currently being targetted by a mob you have aggro you do not have to be being targetted by a mob to have threat with it. if you do any damage to a mob in a normal mmo you are on its hate lst and have threat only when you have more threat then everyone else would you have aggro with this AI you dont nessisarily have to have the most threat you would simply have to be the highest priority, if you simply disagree thats fine i just dont think you understand what i am saying.

 

also as a side note i agree taunts are not nessisary to tanking i tanked for years in eq2 without ever touching my taunt button for any reason other then the debuff threat however is a mechanic not an ability

  Siug

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/02/12
Posts: 1144

8/07/13 1:14:47 AM#180
No trinity is not a problem per se until it's not faceroll zerging like GW2 has. Actually GW2 should be taken as an example how not to implement certain things, combat being number one.
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