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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » "The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." - member of EQN AI team

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407 posts found
  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2096

joie de vivre

8/06/13 7:26:10 PM#141

Could swear it stared in pen and paper games...could also swear it made for co-dependent SOCIAL gameplay...

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Nephelai

Novice Member

Joined: 1/29/13
Posts: 159

8/06/13 7:27:20 PM#142
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

EQN isn't getting rid of roles though, just the strict holy-trinity roles. They've stated multiple times in the SOE Live panels that they don't want to get rid of roles in EQN.

The problem with the trinity system is that it just wouldn't work with the robust AI system they have in place. An intelligent mob won't just focus a single party member while 10 other guys are bashing it - that is predictable and primitive AI. Think of it like PvP, a real player will be constantly changing his targets based on his situation. Storybricks wants to make npc AI much more lifelike. Traditional threat/aggro mechanics just won't work in this game.

Ok lets take a 1 v 5 PvP scenario. What would I do?

 

First try to reduce the odds to my favor i.e cc some, based on threat to my life.

Next, do something about the person damaging me the most because left unchecked I'm going to die quickly.  If that person is being healed and nullifying my actions then do something about that i.e kill or disable the healer

Rinse and repeat x whatever necessary.

 

PvP isnt complicated and it would be easy to make a boss do that and he would smash any group. Instead they make non trinity some randomised rule set to give players the "feel" that its dynamic. i.e they make the boss do dumb things.

 

 

  Ventlus

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/10
Posts: 95

8/06/13 7:33:17 PM#143
Originally posted by Nephelai
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

EQN isn't getting rid of roles though, just the strict holy-trinity roles. They've stated multiple times in the SOE Live panels that they don't want to get rid of roles in EQN.

The problem with the trinity system is that it just wouldn't work with the robust AI system they have in place. An intelligent mob won't just focus a single party member while 10 other guys are bashing it - that is predictable and primitive AI. Think of it like PvP, a real player will be constantly changing his targets based on his situation. Storybricks wants to make npc AI much more lifelike. Traditional threat/aggro mechanics just won't work in this game.

Ok lets take a 1 v 5 PvP scenario. What would I do?

 

First try to reduce the odds to my favor i.e cc some, based on threat to my life.

Next, do something about the person damaging me the most because left unchecked I'm going to die quickly.  If that person is being healed and nullifying my actions then do something about that i.e kill or disable the healer

Rinse and repeat x whatever necessary.

 

PvP isnt complicated and it would be easy to make a boss do that and he would smash any group. Instead they make non trinity some randomised rule set to give players the "feel" that its dynamic. i.e they make the boss do dumb things.

 

 

this is a pretty spot on example, this is what i don't see a non trinity system creating a fix for 

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3143

8/06/13 7:34:29 PM#144
Originally posted by Nephelai

Ignoring human nature will fail or at least only attract a small following. If you throw 1000 people onto a desert island only a hand full will take initiative an lead, a few less will want to help coordinate and the rest of the mass will be happy to follow. This behavior runs thru everything in life including games and is what the holy trinity mirrors.

 

Making it so "everyone" can do "everything" just goes against human nature and will only attract a small population. It doesn't even fit realistically. Imagine if I was that boss and I had five people attacking me what would I do? I would kill the high threat to my life first and then move on. I wouldn't stop or randomly change my target for no reason.

 

Under the trinity system the boss or mobs attacking the "highest threat" to their life (albeit a mechanic) at least makes sense in the real world. I've said it before that tanks threat mechanic should be pure dps to make it even more realistic i.e tanks do the highest damage hence attract the most attention as that are the highest threat ot life. As a bonus would create more tanks.

I could live with that reasoning..  The man stabbing me the most that is close to me gets MY attention..  His buddy might be throwing rocks at me, but in the heat of a fight, that man with the knife is my primary focus.. Range DPS would carry less threat, and other melee dps like a rogue has to select his attack moments.. Healers carry on as usual, no change..  And I really get tired hearing smart AI's.. Smart AI's should only apply to intelligent humanoids, not a pack of wolves or a bear.. I personally would like to see the trinity (role system) expanded to include  more CC, better buffing and debuffing.. and utility support

  Kiyoris

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/13
Posts: 356

8/06/13 7:36:08 PM#145

I don't know what to think anymore.

I guess I am biased because I like trinity. But I have also noticed that very few action games work. They work in a console setting, not so much MMO setting, unless of course you are ok with MMO being Single Player Combo Fest.

  Ventlus

Novice Member

Joined: 5/22/10
Posts: 95

8/06/13 7:37:23 PM#146
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Nephelai

Ignoring human nature will fail or at least only attract a small following. If you throw 1000 people onto a desert island only a hand full will take initiative an lead, a few less will want to help coordinate and the rest of the mass will be happy to follow. This behavior runs thru everything in life including games and is what the holy trinity mirrors.

 

Making it so "everyone" can do "everything" just goes against human nature and will only attract a small population. It doesn't even fit realistically. Imagine if I was that boss and I had five people attacking me what would I do? I would kill the high threat to my life first and then move on. I wouldn't stop or randomly change my target for no reason.

 

Under the trinity system the boss or mobs attacking the "highest threat" to their life (albeit a mechanic) at least makes sense in the real world. I've said it before that tanks threat mechanic should be pure dps to make it even more realistic i.e tanks do the highest damage hence attract the most attention as that are the highest threat ot life. As a bonus would create more tanks.

I could live with that reasoning..  The man stabbing me the most that is close to me gets MY attention..  His buddy might be throwing rocks at me, but in the heat of a fight, that man with the knife is my primary focus.. Range DPS would carry less threat, and other melee dps like a rogue has to select his attack moments.. Healers carry on as usual, no change..  And I really get tired hearing smart AI's.. Smart AI's should only apply to intelligent humanoids, not a pack of wolves or a bear.. I personally would like to see the trinity (role system) expanded to include  more CC, better buffing and debuffing.. and utility support

They had that in FFXI :<, plenty of utility support 

  Aceshighhhh

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/11
Posts: 187

 
OP  8/06/13 7:39:25 PM#147
Originally posted by Nephelai
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

EQN isn't getting rid of roles though, just the strict holy-trinity roles. They've stated multiple times in the SOE Live panels that they don't want to get rid of roles in EQN.

The problem with the trinity system is that it just wouldn't work with the robust AI system they have in place. An intelligent mob won't just focus a single party member while 10 other guys are bashing it - that is predictable and primitive AI. Think of it like PvP, a real player will be constantly changing his targets based on his situation. Storybricks wants to make npc AI much more lifelike. Traditional threat/aggro mechanics just won't work in this game.

Ok lets take a 1 v 5 PvP scenario. What would I do?

 

First try to reduce the odds to my favor i.e cc some, based on threat to my life.

Next, do something about the person damaging me the most because left unchecked I'm going to die quickly.  If that person is being healed and nullifying my actions then do something about that i.e kill or disable the healer

Rinse and repeat x whatever necessary.

 

PvP isnt complicated and it would be easy to make a boss do that and he would smash any group. Instead they make non trinity some randomised rule set to give players the "feel" that its dynamic. i.e they make the boss do dumb things.

 

 

What you described sounds like a much more interesting mechanic than traditional tank-heal-dps roles. You're making assumptions that these sort of encounters would only "smash groups" but how do we know that? I'm sure SOE is quite capable of designing intelligent mob encounters that are very possible to take down, you and many people seem to be stuck in the traditional mindset of only one design.

We haven't seen this design in context so we don't know how well it will work.

  wsmar

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/09
Posts: 122

8/06/13 7:44:46 PM#148
Originally posted by r0guy
Originally posted by wsmar
Originally posted by r0guy
Originally posted by wsmar
Originally posted by r0guy
Originally posted by wsmar
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

https://twitter.com/Psychochild/status/364200566840238080

"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

 

Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

 

I'd really like to know what will differentiate EQN from the "primitive" AI we've seen in the past.

 

There is nothing more dynamic than PvP, and the trinity works wonders. I have a hard time understanding why they believe the trinity system is "primitive" because it was used in old games. That's like saying Quantum Mechanics is "primitive" because we discovered it back in the 20s, yet we are constantly finding new ways to use it.

 

Can anyone honestly give a good counter response to that? I'd love to hear it. I'm not trying to sound cocky or arrogant, I'm actually very intrigued.

 

I'll bite.

What they've said so far about the AI is pretty darn different to what we've seen. The orcs not spawning in camps, but making choices about where they go depending on likes/dislikes is radical. But it's just words for now so I'll skip that point.

In the MMOs I've played like WOW/SWTOR/WAR/EVE the PVP never relied on the trinity to work. So I'd love to know what you meant by that. Rogue/MAGE/Priest was almost always the best setup for 3V3 WoW arenas and i don't see a tank in it, for example.

You guys seriously need to stop with the misquotes here, the devs never said it was primitive because it was old. There are lots of "old" things that'll still be in the the game.

You honestly believe that these Orcs are actually going to have likes and dislikes? Apparently SOE has surpassed the AI the leading scientists in the world use when they try to create "smart" robots. It's programmed that way. Just like GW2's "dynamic" events were programmed to look "dynamic". The fact that the even use the word Artificial Intelligence continuely bothers me.

 

You don't think WAR's PvP was dependent on the holy trinity? Are you serious? If that was truly the case, WAR would have been the ranged cluster fuck that GW2 was. That's silly. I'm talking about open world pvp, not instanced battlegrounds and scenarios. Even then, having a good healer, a good tank, and a good dps in PvP battlegrounds and scenarios made the world of difference.

 

Errrm, this isn't Science fiction, this is 10 year old stuff at least. What's funny is that MMOs have been so far behind the curve that people actually think this is hard stuff to do. "Likes" and "dislikes" is a simplified term.

 

Having an Orc AI, wandering off somewhere where there are X amount less guards but requires Y amount of players if Z amounts of orcs die in their current vicinity, isn't hard to do at all....

Or if target didnt die after 5 minutes of hitting it, go for highest damage dealer if X, go for healer if Y or try your luck with low health target Z...

As it is now, at least in wow, it's spot player > run to player coordinates > rotate given abilities.Without exagerating, this isn't even a step above Pacman ghosts...

 

To your second point. Perhaps because examples from OW PVP are irrelevant? If we're talking trinity, we're talking dungeons and raids wich are closed, controlled environments just like battlegrounds and arenas. Unless I'm missing something?

 

You pretty much answered my question the way I expected you too. What you described is not under any circumstances artificial intelligence. The program is basically shooting values through a function, and then based on what those values are determine where the orc goes. The Orc is not actually making an intelligent decision, it is merely going to the only places it is programmed to go to. That isn't AI. That word is misused in the gaming industry.

 

If you think OW PvP is irrelevant then we can talk strictly about battlegrounds. Let me answer this differently then, since we are specifically talking about battlegrounds. No, the scenarios, and battlegrounds did not require the holy trinity per say to work, but if the point is to just make them work, then what's the point of making a game. Something that works doesn't necessarily equate to being fun. I personally along with many other people didn't enjoy GW2's battlegrounds at all. Unlike WAR's scenarios, your allies in GW2 couldn't aid you in the same effect. You might as well just be doing 1 v 1's in GW2 because there was no dependence on the rest of your team.

 

 

First paragraph:

Semantics. Why ask what's different about the AI if you define it as non-existant in any game then? What was the point of your question? I thought you were asking how the way the NPCs are programmed changed the game, I answered. They act more like real creatures/people now.

 

Moving on...

 

Second paragraph:

You said PVP was dependent on the trinity, I said it wasn't, and I gave an explanation. If you meant that pvp is more fun with the trinity, that's your opinion, I respect it and I have nothing to say to that.

I have never played GW2, because i thought it looked terrible and chaotic from the videos i saw of it and I also love playing healers and when I heard that it didn't have any, I didn't bother. But just because another game was badly designed doesn't mean that the concept doesn't work, doesn't mean that it can in the future or that it hasn't worked somewhere else before.

Like MOBAs for example. You get to heal, you get to tank, you can make up a full DPS team if you want and go all the way up into international championships with it. But you're not suddenly screwed if you're healer goes to bed, and you now have a variety of setups and strategies other than tank+healer+dps and only one viable strategy. Trinity setups are only there if you want them.

I was questioning why they considered it "primitive" or in other words any different from what they are doing now. You answered my question, and I responded by saying that isn't AI. The point I was making is that they are saying it is "primitive" because it was used in older games or games that came before it. I think at this point based on the statements you made, that validated what I was saying. Nothing drastic has actually happened. It is the same old same old. If you want to call it an argument of semantics be my guest, even though that is definitely debateable, I was merely wondering what differentiated it from its "primitive" counterparts. Obviously not very much in the artificial intelligence department. It should be called game design.

 

In order for the PvP battlegrounds to work as intended in the games you mentioned, having the trinity present works wonders. Obviously, that isn't always the case, the trinity isn't always present. However, it does change the experience. It didn't make the battles as long for instance because when you died, you respawned, instead of getting rezzed or healed. So battles would become more fragmented, which can clearly be seen often in GW2. You are right, as I stated earlier, the trinity doesn't have to be present for you to be able to play in a battleground. Not only that, but when there isn't any kind of class synergy, something that the holy trinity brings to the table, people tend to not work in a group. People solo more, even in PvP battlegrounds. It is not always the most intelligent choice to stick with your allies because they can't do that much for you in the sense of heals or buffs. It is up to you to decide whether that works or not. In my opinion it doesn't but that's just me. This can be applied to games that do have the holy trinity as well. When a healer or a dps or a tank isn't present in a battleground the balance is gone, and relying on oneself becomes more important. It still functions, but that doesn't mean it works as intended.

 

I could even go on about WAR's RvR and why it wouldn't have worked if the holy trinity wasn't there. That isn't really open world PvP because you can only PvP within the boundaries of the PvP area.

 

As I said earlier, I'm drawing from the fact that GW2 didn't have the trinity as well as roleless classes. I don't know what EQN will be like, for all I know they will have dedicated healers, but I don't. However, I do know that there hasn't been a game without the holy trinity that has had successful battlegrounds where balance is a key issue.

  Voqar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/04
Posts: 470

8/06/13 7:46:24 PM#149

Disagree.

 

Without trinity you have a bunch of soloists sharing space doing low grade whatever.

 

Structured grouping = good.

 

Soloists sharing a chat channel and location = lame.

Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.

  Demalis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/13
Posts: 133

8/06/13 7:47:51 PM#150
Originally posted by ste2000
Originally posted by Foomerang

I thought Holy Trinity came about because people enjoyed specialized roles in a group. Maybe thats not why it came about, but I think thats a big reason why it has stuck around for so long.

It came about because of the RPG games (damn them!), I blame Baldurs Gate.

Yes RPG, ROLE playing games, where a player plays a frikking ROLE!

Players like to play Roles, that's why they play RPGs and MMORPGs

But don't tell Arenanet and SoE devs, they might not cope with the news!

I blame d&d, ad&d, robotech, tmnt, vampire the masquerade, call of cathulu, paranoid, rifts, marvel universe etc. etc. I am sure I played more of them just not at the top of my head. Just imagine if they made a call of cathulu MMORPG, I had a character who would have panic attacks at the site of blood from casting the clutch of nygotha spell to many times lmfao. Good times.

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3894

8/06/13 7:56:37 PM#151
Originally posted by CalmOceans

The thing that is primitive is action combat.

It allows for no pulling, it has inferior CC, inferior tanking, inferior healing. The whole "action combat" is flawed from the get go. It also results in a lack of community and lack of interdependence.

And unless you have a brilliant solution that doesn't result in a zergfest, please for love of God stick to Holy Trinity which has stood the test of time.

 

So far, you've shown a combat video of a warrior zerging, more primitive gameplay and AI than I have ever seen in any MMO on the market.

 

On the one hand you claim you don't want to see guilds or groups fall apart because they lose an essential element in the trinity. That is the point....the interdepence is what makes trinity combat so strong. The depence on groups, on tanks, on healers, on CC, on pullers is the point of the trinity systems. They create the challenging content, they create the dependency, they create the community.

 

Action MMO have never managed to surpass Street Fighter on crack gameplay. So much for that "advanced AI"

The current action mmos still use the same primitive AI thats in trinity based games, which is threat dependent.  In GW2 the mobs still attack the ones with the most threat which is still determined by whos doing the most damage or doing the most healing, its still no different from a trinity system.  Smart AI is when the mobs attack based on whats more strategic to their long term survival and what can they do with their abilities to make that happen all based on what kind of enemy(s) and surrounding environment.

And there are mmos with action combat and smart AI that doesnt end up in zerg fest coming out like the Division for example.  GW2s mistake is that it was trying to be half and half. Theres lots of team work going on in that gameplay video against the AI.

 

  NomadMorlock

Novice Member

Joined: 12/09/07
Posts: 438

8/06/13 7:57:56 PM#152
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Nephelai

Ignoring human nature will fail or at least only attract a small following. If you throw 1000 people onto a desert island only a hand full will take initiative an lead, a few less will want to help coordinate and the rest of the mass will be happy to follow. This behavior runs thru everything in life including games and is what the holy trinity mirrors.

 

Making it so "everyone" can do "everything" just goes against human nature and will only attract a small population. It doesn't even fit realistically. Imagine if I was that boss and I had five people attacking me what would I do? I would kill the high threat to my life first and then move on. I wouldn't stop or randomly change my target for no reason.

 

Under the trinity system the boss or mobs attacking the "highest threat" to their life (albeit a mechanic) at least makes sense in the real world. I've said it before that tanks threat mechanic should be pure dps to make it even more realistic i.e tanks do the highest damage hence attract the most attention as that are the highest threat ot life. As a bonus would create more tanks.

I could live with that reasoning..  The man stabbing me the most that is close to me gets MY attention..  His buddy might be throwing rocks at me, but in the heat of a fight, that man with the knife is my primary focus.. Range DPS would carry less threat, and other melee dps like a rogue has to select his attack moments.. Healers carry on as usual, no change..  And I really get tired hearing smart AI's.. Smart AI's should only apply to intelligent humanoids, not a pack of wolves or a bear.. I personally would like to see the trinity (role system) expanded to include  more CC, better buffing and debuffing.. and utility support

Expand roles - Don't walk away from them!

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11896

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

8/06/13 8:00:52 PM#153
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

https://twitter.com/Psychochild/status/364200566840238080

"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

8/06/13 8:23:08 PM#154
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

https://twitter.com/Psychochild/status/364200566840238080

"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

 

The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3894

8/06/13 8:26:43 PM#155
Originally posted by Sephiroso

Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

 

The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

This mmo proves your statement wrong and its a class-less system.

  Whiskey_Sam

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/12
Posts: 272

Nemo me impune lacessit.

8/06/13 8:32:59 PM#156
Originally posted by BadSpock

Another big "if" from the EQN team - promising "wait and see, WE'LL be the ones to finally get it right, we promise!"

I hope they do.

It'd be AMAZING if they do. It really would change everything.

But after 14+ years in this genre, you can't get upset at people like me for being pessimistic and assuming they are just blowing smoke.

 

We're of the same mindset.  Show don't tell.  Developers overpromise and underdeliver all the time.  Best to wait for them to have something tangible before hyperventilating over marketing.

___________________________
Have flask; will travel.

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 787

8/06/13 8:56:42 PM#157
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

Brian Green of Storybricks tweeted this today:

https://twitter.com/Psychochild/status/364200566840238080

"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair." 

Before everyone touts GW2 references or cries about the end of the world, consider that the system SOE is building for EQN requires the removal of the holy trinity. Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.

One of the most sensible posts on EQN I've seen so far this week.

Not sensible at all. It's simply ignorance to believe that you have to remove the trinity system with the inclusion of a smart AI.

The trinity did not come about because of primitive AI either. As someone said far better than me, the trinity system has been used far far longer than even D&D. The system of people specializing in specific individual roles will work towards the betterment of the group as a whole as opposed to everyone dabbling into a little of everything.

Where did they say you...

1. have to dabble in everything

2. can't specialize into specific roles (classes)

3. can't still have the trinity in some fashion

If AI is smart enough to not fall for the old taunt spam, no the trinity of old isn't going to work as the dragon will just walk on over to the healers and eat them. So healers can't just hide in the corner staring at health bars the whole fight.

But there is nothing stopping a Warrior (tank) from shield bashing a dragon in the ankle and slowing him down and or making him turn around, not because he "taunted" but because he hindered his movement and is now angry!

Healer was first priority, but if the warrior is keeping him from the healer,  the warrior is first priority again and has given the healer time to get out of the way. But don't forget those magi in the corner blasting away, dragon has to get them too!

Tactics are still needed. "Trinity" is just a name slapped onto a set of roles. The old way is very unrealistic and is a sign of how crappy AI was/is.

If they clearly said "Trinity is Dead!" "You can't have a healer, dps, tank, cc in the same group" "A whole bunch of DPS is much better then a mix of various roles" I will stand corrected. But so far they have shown very very little about the classes, combat, and AI. To jump to any conclusion one way or the other and have a fit is not very smart.

  r0guy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/28/06
Posts: 119

8/06/13 9:12:58 PM#158
Originally posted by wsmar
Originally posted by r0guy

 

First paragraph:

Semantics. Why ask what's different about the AI if you define it as non-existant in any game then? What was the point of your question? I thought you were asking how the way the NPCs are programmed changed the game, I answered. They act more like real creatures/people now.

 

Moving on...

 

Second paragraph:

You said PVP was dependent on the trinity, I said it wasn't, and I gave an explanation. If you meant that pvp is more fun with the trinity, that's your opinion, I respect it and I have nothing to say to that.

I have never played GW2, because i thought it looked terrible and chaotic from the videos i saw of it and I also love playing healers and when I heard that it didn't have any, I didn't bother. But just because another game was badly designed doesn't mean that the concept doesn't work, doesn't mean that it can in the future or that it hasn't worked somewhere else before.

I was questioning why they considered it "primitive" or in other words any different from what they are doing now. You answered my question, and I responded by saying that isn't AI. The point I was making is that they are saying it is "primitive" because it was used in older games or games that came before it. I think at this point based on the statements you made, that validated what I was saying. Nothing drastic has actually happened. It is the same old same old. If you want to call it an argument of semantics be my guest, even though that is definitely debateable, I was merely wondering what differentiated it from its "primitive" counterparts. Obviously not very much in the artificial intelligence department. It should be called game design.

 Well if you want to say that there's not much difference when a mob just stands still on it's spawn and mob that is unpredictable, moves around, actually comes to ambush you and changes it's behaviour when you attack/kill them giving you a possibility to have an impact on the world.... That's up to you i guess. They did not say it was primitive because it was used in older games, the reasoning was that it's "stupid" (their word, not mine), repetitive and immersion breaking. It's a "no true scotsman" to say "since neither have real AI, like Skynet in Terminator, there's no difference". Raid monsters following a strategy that will obviously get them killed, looks stupid, and if I'm a healer for example, the raid monster will never ever ever go for me (at least in WoW, with the exceptions of gimmick encounters like Little red riding hood in karazan) and that's boring and predictable. As sure as enemies in old FPS' used to not take cover/retreat/be able to throw back grenades compared to now, It may not be true AI, but thank god for technology.

In order for the PvP battlegrounds to work as intended in the games you mentioned, having the trinity present works wonders. Obviously, that isn't always the case, the trinity isn't always present. However, it does change the experience.Yeah it does, I still don't see why a trinity group of 1 dps+1tank+1healer should be forced to be so much better than any other setup. What is the more complex game? The one where everyone plays a trinity or the one where you can build, discover and learn new setups? You havn't addressed my MOBA example, it's a system where everyone gets what they want.  It didn't make the battles as long for instance because when you died, you respawned, instead of getting rezzed or healed. So battles would become more fragmented, which can clearly be seen often in GW2. You are right, as I stated earlier, the trinity doesn't have to be present for you to be able to play in a battleground. Not only that, but when there isn't any kind of class synergy, something that the holy trinity brings to the table, people tend to not work in a group. This is completely false, you find teamwork in all genres of games that don't force people into roles, from first person shooters, RTS to real life sports. MLG championships have quite a few. People solo more, even in PvP battlegrounds. It is not always the most intelligent choice to stick with your allies because they can't do that much for you in the sense of heals or buffs. It is up to you to decide whether that works or not. In my opinion it doesn't but that's just me. This can be applied to games that do have the holy trinity as well. When a healer or a dps or a tank isn't present in a battleground the balance is gone, and relying on oneself becomes more important. It still functions, but that doesn't mean it works as intended. Maybe it is intended, maybe the situation you've described doesn't change at all. If there's no healer, tanks still tank, dps still dps. They'll need to revise their strategy but if you split up, you still have just as much chance to get outnumbered and killed. What has disappeared is the forced dependence on specific classes. Not because the player is good, not because it's part of your strategy, not because he's a friend and I want to play with him, it's because I've been forced too. Teamwork is about interacting with others and I can't remember the last time I actually interacted with a tank, healer or DPS in a PVE dungeon.

 

I could even go on about WAR's RvR and why it wouldn't have worked if the holy trinity wasn't there. That isn't really open world PvP because you can only PvP within the boundaries of the PvP area.

 

As I said earlier, I'm drawing from the fact that GW2 didn't have the trinity as well as roleless classes. I don't know what EQN will be like, for all I know they will have dedicated healers, but I don't. However, I do know that there hasn't been a game without the holy trinity that has had successful battlegrounds where balance is a key issue. DOTA 2, LoL (not MMOs, but you'd have to argue why it doesn't apply), WoW arenas and according to some GW1 didn't require it either. And they're the most successful games that apply.

 

  camphor1

Novice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 19

8/06/13 9:13:36 PM#159

But there is nothing stopping a Warrior (tank) from shield bashing a dragon in the ankle and slowing him down and or making him turn around, not because he "taunted" but because he hindered his movement and is now angry!

2 things here

1. your assuming the dragon has no ranged attack

2. if it doesent it obviously can be snared in this scenario wouldent it be much much easier for that warrior and everyone else in the group to switch to wizard class snare it and kite it around until dead instead of having to worry about someone being hit

ps. everyone always forgets ranged attacks and everyone always forget that stunlocking a mob permenently isnt fun combat

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

8/06/13 9:20:27 PM#160

Well, I won't be sorry to seen the magic "Neener neener, you gotta fight me and only me no matter what, hyper-intelligent space alien, cause I insulted your mama! Do you even have one of those? Here's your lawful stupid pills Nyah nyah nyah."

Most potent form of mind-control in the universe, who says Tanks aren't magical?

Shame we have to lose Tanks to get rid of that. Tanks were (usually) pretty likeable fellows.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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