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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Will the upcoming wave of AAA sandboxes mmos change the public preferences?

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52 posts found
  Kaledren

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/11
Posts: 140

8/05/13 6:00:48 PM#21
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ste2000

If SoE fix the combat system (Teamwork has to be central), EQN has a chance to become a cult game.

With no challenge, this game will sink fast, regardless of the nice new features they are implementing.

I don't think SOE wants a cult game. They want a big success. If so, they better cater to the solo-ers and casuals.

 

Dear God no. Then it wouldn't be an EQ game.

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1780

8/05/13 6:06:39 PM#22

The public preferences changes long ago.

 

The real question is, will game companies continue to see all their money in box sales or will the bread and butter be monthly revenue again?

 

Older MMO's were made with longevity in mind. None I have seen in 5 years had that goal. Sell boxes, push a cash shop and let it rot.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/05/13 11:41:32 PM#23
Originally posted by DMKano

It highly depends on how well the games are done.

Players want fun, immersive and well polished games first and foremost - what catergory they are (themepark/sandbox) is not the primary motivator for many gamers.

If there's a sandbox game that is very high quality, fun, very polished, immersive and easy to play yet difficult to master, it would have a much higher chance of doing well than a buggy, unoptimized, overly complicated game.

I think players will be pleasantly surprised with some upcoming sandpark games like ArcheAge for example - it has many of the qualities needed for a successful game. 

Strongly agree with this.

Although part of "high quality" and "very polished" is that a game is well-paced.  And with ArcheAge in particular one concern I've had (knowing very little about the game) is it'll end up as one of those travel-intensive games which force players to spend a significant amount of time in the shallowest game system (travel is usually the shallowest mechanic in a game,) which drags down the experience.  Hopefully it's just my ignorance of how ArcheAge is going to turn out, and they design it in a way where players spend the most time in the highest-depth systems, and the least time (if any time at all) in the shallowest systems.

But again, overall I agree with everything you've said -- and the undertone is that player tastes actually haven't changed much over the years at all.  They still want the same deep, polished games which don't waste their time -- just like they always have.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4475

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

8/05/13 11:46:29 PM#24
Originally posted by free2play

The public preferences changes long ago.

 

The real question is, will game companies continue to see all their money in box sales or will the bread and butter be monthly revenue again?

 

Older MMO's were made with longevity in mind. None I have seen in 5 years had that goal. Sell boxes, push a cash shop and let it rot.

that's the market reacting to players.

 

players clear content and mov on so devs must find ways to cash quicker.

 

youtube guides play a big role in the accelerated pace of overcoming...content.

 

yes, at this point we can talk of "overcoming content". players WANT to pick it up, beat it in a month, put it down. so devs have that month to cash in.

  Kuro1n

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 774

8/05/13 11:49:26 PM#25
No but the meaning of 'sandbox' will change... for the worse.
  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1417

8/06/13 5:22:01 AM#26
Originally posted by ste2000
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ste2000

If SoE fix the combat system (Teamwork has to be central), EQN has a chance to become a cult game.

With no challenge, this game will sink fast, regardless of the nice new features they are implementing.

I don't think SOE wants a cult game. They want a big success. If so, they better cater to the solo-ers and casuals.

 

Well, EQ is a cult game, like WoW and EvE............and they are doing well financially (at least EQ did well until few years ago)

And all those 3 games are not for casuals, even WoW has a a huge harcore player base (the end gamers), not just the casuals that keep rolling Alts forever..................

 

Name one Casual  MMO that has been a huge success.

I can only name GW2 which is doing fine............... out of hundreds that failed.

 

I believe that MMOs are not for casual gamers, there will be one day that finally the industry will understand how much money they wasted in making MMOs for a player base (casual) that don't spend money and expect to play the games for free...............

WoW is a casual game. Just because it has some hardcore content does not mean it isn't casual.

And any game with a huge audience will have to have a Casual entry point. Eve tries that very hard.. but really never catched it completely.

But to have somewhat of a longterm appeal, you have to have difficult content, and more important long term engaging content. For WoW it was raiding(hardcore and casual). For DAoC it was RvR. And i missed that one somewhat in GW2.. WvW was really not appealing enough, nor meaningfull enough.. just taking keeps for the sake of taking it is really not worth it.

And about the shift to more sandbox playing. Well.. it happens at the moment... and how long it will last comes down to how successful all those Sandbox/Sandparks games will be.

15 years ago i thought sandbox was the way for MMORPGs(as i played UO). I could not be more wrong.. with 15 years of themeparks following.

  User Deleted
8/06/13 5:24:30 AM#27

Arche age = ugly as hell

EQN = the hell is this? meh (brain fart?)

my game is the best game, others are shit too bad its just a design of aspiring designer at this point....(JOKE)

well anyway i certainly would be happy if the sandboxes or parks that come out in a few years would change the minds of the current mmorpg players or at least shift them so that they are more accepting towards sandboxes and parks instead of blatantly ignoring them

new generation of mmorpg players are growing as we speak its all about THE game that gets them to play mmorpgs and preferably sandboxes and sandparks

well i doubt that there will be a game that will rival WOWs playerbase atleast not in another 20 years

its all WoWs fault that the market got lost in the forest and the progress of mmorpgs stopped

"WoW money is not your money no matter how wow'ish the game you make is"

 

  Jagarid

Novice Member

Joined: 8/01/09
Posts: 413

“Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.”

8/06/13 5:39:05 AM#28
Sandbox games will never be as popular as Theme Park, ever. Most people prefer to be guided rather than be given creative freedom. Sad, but true. This simple fact will give Theme Parks the edge, no matter how many great sandbox games are made.
  Siug

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/02/12
Posts: 971

8/06/13 5:48:34 AM#29
Originally posted by laokoko

You really don't understand why people don't play sandbox game.

People dont' play sandbox game because it equals FFA full loot pvp with lackster PvE dungeon.

I suppose more people will start playing sandbox game now that it is start to change.

 

Very true. Personally I would not anything that has FFA PvP. I play MMOs purely for entertainment and ganking and griefing don't belong in that category imo. Will play EQN of course and hope it'll have a sub option.

  jesteralways

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 497

8/06/13 6:00:31 AM#30
I won't be playing a pure sandbox game because in a pure sandbox there is no endgame. if i want to advance, if i want to get stronger then there should be a reason why i should get stronger, in themepark game we have end game raids/instances. i like story in rpg and i like it when story is told through set of quests and activities; sandbox don't have anything like that. people can say that i like "hand held" "baby feeding" etc but i simply don't care. give me reason why i should be advancing my character in a rpg, i don't look for "self entitlement" in an online game. i don't like to give my resume to people, "back when i played UO there was.." , i am not like that. when i play rpg i want to read and experience an epic story and if i can experience a story with many otehr players like me then it is a golden opportunity for me. sandbox don't provide me that. i will not be switching to arche age leaving WoW and Rift.

No panties, No Life

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5095

8/06/13 6:23:54 AM#31

The first MMO's had strong sandbox elements, but I do not think you can call them all sandbox as such. Sandbox and themepark have just become labels that are bandied around and hide the complexity of MMO's.

I think the new wave of MMO's will shift players to wanting more sandbox elements of gameplay in the mix. I do not think there will be a sea change. Themepark MMO's are designed on very sound gameplay principles, our preference for that sort of play will not just disappear.

To a certain extent I think the whole debate is a mistake. Nearly all MMO's are now strongly themepark, players realise MMO's have got worse, so they blame it on the themepark style. But you can do themepark many ways and I would suggest it was the loss of old school gameplay principles that makes modern easyMMO's look bad as much as the loss of sandbox elements.

I think MMOs may well get better purely for the reason that sandbox elements will other something new. Modern MMOs desperately need something new wherever it comes from. Also you can mix pathways with open spaces both as a game world and in gameplay. The two play styles are not exclusive.

But I think the real elephant in the room is the inability of MMOs to maintain a long term player base and how the playerbase is now used to the idea they will always move on after a couple of months, no matter what. This creates an environment were you have to be as good as GW2 to keep players. That is a very high bar and I do not think it matters what type of MMO gameplay you have. It is a cut throat market and we are going to see sandbox MMO's struggle just as much as their more themepark predecessors.

  Malcanis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3197

"A very special kind of stupidity"

8/06/13 8:42:18 AM#32
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

In the start, almost all mmos were sandbox. Then came EQ and later WoW with the themepark formula. The phenomenal success of WoW shaped the mmo market for the next 10 years, creating a paradigm that all AAA productions followed. The sandboxes became indie products.

 

Well, with the upcoming wave of AAA sandboxes/sandparks, will the market and the public preferences change once again in the opposite direction? Will these AAA mmorpgs "teach" the public to play and appreciate sandboxes? Will the themepark elements that some of them bring within serve as a "bridge" in that transition?

 

Open to opinions.

 

 

What constitutes a "wave" of releases?

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19143

8/06/13 11:41:11 AM#33
Originally posted by Scot

But I think the real elephant in the room is the inability of MMOs to maintain a long term player base and how the playerbase is now used to the idea they will always move on after a couple of months, no matter what. This creates an environment were you have to be as good as GW2 to keep players. That is a very high bar and I do not think it matters what type of MMO gameplay you have. It is a cut throat market and we are going to see sandbox MMO's struggle just as much as their more themepark predecessors.

I think the idea of keeping the same player long term is just a fool's errand. The best a game can hope for is a player may come back from time to time to check out new content.

If devs understand this model, they can always make money. GW2 is doing it by B2P. In fact, they don't need players to be long term. In fact, churn is perfectly good for GW2 since they get their money from box sales.

 

  maccarthur2004

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 447

 
OP  8/06/13 4:20:51 PM#34

I think the main "advantage"  themeparks always will have over sandboxes, making them have more appeal to the masses, is the fact that players always win and always progress playing them. The players will (in 99% of times) be more stronger/richer than when they logged in. In the other hand, sandboxes have the possibility of losses, sometimes big, but always meaningful.

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  maccarthur2004

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 447

 
OP  8/06/13 4:22:13 PM#35
Originally posted by OfficialFlow

Arche age = ugly as hell

So you never played WoW. :D

Look some videos or pictures of WoW gameplay.

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Shadowguy64

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/13
Posts: 880

8/06/13 4:25:50 PM#36
Originally posted by Malcanis
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

In the start, almost all mmos were sandbox. Then came EQ and later WoW with the themepark formula. The phenomenal success of WoW shaped the mmo market for the next 10 years, creating a paradigm that all AAA productions followed. The sandboxes became indie products.

 

Well, with the upcoming wave of AAA sandboxes/sandparks, will the market and the public preferences change once again in the opposite direction? Will these AAA mmorpgs "teach" the public to play and appreciate sandboxes? Will the themepark elements that some of them bring within serve as a "bridge" in that transition?

 

Open to opinions.

 

 

What constitutes a "wave" of releases?

 

Two or three?

  maccarthur2004

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 447

 
OP  8/06/13 4:33:54 PM#37
Originally posted by jesteralways
I won't be playing a pure sandbox game because in a pure sandbox there is no endgame. if i want to advance, if i want to get stronger then there should be a reason why i should get stronger, in themepark game we have end game raids/instances.
In sandboxes, the usual reason to become stronger is to gain positions in the social, political and economic stage of the game world. People usually have the chance of becoming famous, recognized, own castles or territories, make part of a guild history from the ground to proeminence, etc.
i like story in rpg and i like it when story is told through set of quests and activities; sandbox don't have anything like that. people can say that i like "hand held" "baby feeding" etc but i simply don't care. give me reason why i should be advancing my character in a rpg, i don't look for "self entitlement" in an online game. i don't like to give my resume to people, "back when i played UO there was.." , i am not like that. when i play rpg i want to read and experience an epic story and if i can experience a story with many otehr players like me then it is a golden opportunity for me. sandbox don't provide me that. i will not be switching to arche age leaving WoW and Rift.

In truth about 70% of people that plays themepark dont give a shit to the story. I was very surprised when i discovered by the first time that people didn't read the quests, skip cinematics or rush through dramatized content. When i played themeparks (WoW and Tera) i read all quests because i know that the main purpose of a themepark is to tell a story. Play themeparks and dont give atention to his lore is like going to a strip club only to hear the background music.

By the way, SWTOR had the biggest fail of mmo story precisely because they spent hundreds of milions in a thing that 70% of people dont give a shit: a rich full voiced story.

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/06/13 7:33:04 PM#38
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

I think the main "advantage"  themeparks always will have over sandboxes, making them have more appeal to the masses, is the fact that players always win and always progress playing them. The players will (in 99% of times) be more stronger/richer than when they logged in. In the other hand, sandboxes have the possibility of losses, sometimes big, but always meaningful.

 

What on earth are you talking about?

Essentially a themepark is someone handing you a puzzle and saying "solve this", while a sandbox is you creating your own puzzle.  The former has a failure condition, the latter doesn't.

Themeparks are dev-created content ("rides") which in an RPG setting usually means you have a wealth of challenge options from low-challenge low-reward to high-challenge high-reward.  In all cases if you fail to exhibit enough skill to defeat the challenge, you fail.

Sandboxes are player-created content ("sand") which in an RPG setting is either paired with themepark content to create a failure condition (and death itself is a dev-created game rule) or is based on PVP, where MMO PVP is the most lightweight, casual form of PVP possible (Not a skilled player? No worries: just play longer (progression), or zerg more (population) to offset your skill disadvantage.)

The Sandboxes which will succeed will be the ones with the best-quality themepark mechanics in them.  If upcoming sandboxes are too freeform (too sandbox) then they'll fail because that's boring to players.  If upcoming sandboxes have themepark challenges inside them, then they'll either fail or succeed based on the quality of those themepark elements (they have to provide the 'sweet spot' of challenge for each player, or players will be frustrated or bored.)

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5095

8/07/13 11:00:13 AM#39
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

I think the main "advantage"  themeparks always will have over sandboxes, making them have more appeal to the masses, is the fact that players always win and always progress playing them. The players will (in 99% of times) be more stronger/richer than when they logged in. In the other hand, sandboxes have the possibility of losses, sometimes big, but always meaningful.

 

What on earth are you talking about?

Essentially a themepark is someone handing you a puzzle and saying "solve this", while a sandbox is you creating your own puzzle.  The former has a failure condition, the latter doesn't.

Themeparks are dev-created content ("rides") which in an RPG setting usually means you have a wealth of challenge options from low-challenge low-reward to high-challenge high-reward.  In all cases if you fail to exhibit enough skill to defeat the challenge, you fail.

Sandboxes are player-created content ("sand") which in an RPG setting is either paired with themepark content to create a failure condition (and death itself is a dev-created game rule) or is based on PVP, where MMO PVP is the most lightweight, casual form of PVP possible (Not a skilled player? No worries: just play longer (progression), or zerg more (population) to offset your skill disadvantage.)

The Sandboxes which will succeed will be the ones with the best-quality themepark mechanics in them.  If upcoming sandboxes are too freeform (too sandbox) then they'll fail because that's boring to players.  If upcoming sandboxes have themepark challenges inside them, then they'll either fail or succeed based on the quality of those themepark elements (they have to provide the 'sweet spot' of challenge for each player, or players will be frustrated or bored.)

Well there is an illusion of success in a themepark, I think you must realise the devs do not want us to think of it as a content ride. There is the idea of being one of the top dogs in the game for a minority but also the idea you have made it just by getting to top level.

I do not think there is any perfect place for a themepark/sandbox to pitch itself. So I do not think the ones that will succeed will be the ones with the best quality themepark elements. On the other hand strip too many of those thempark elements away or do them poorly and I cannot see how such a MMO will make a splash. Maybe for a niche of players but that is all.

  BCuse

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/05
Posts: 140

8/07/13 11:04:48 AM#40
If done right I hope it will change things, if not I am hoping for one that I can really get into myself.
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