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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » I don't understand one thing

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50 posts found
  EQAbner

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/13
Posts: 22

 
OP  8/04/13 8:18:02 PM#21
Originally posted by dzoni87
Originally posted by EQAbner

If there are no levels then what is the goal? Just making stuff? There has to be something. Do you just get "better" by getting better equipment?

 

I am not complaining. I just want to understand how this model works. I fully intend to play and be a paid subscriber if there are any benefits in doing so (and they offer it).

I guess you havent played an sandbox MMO before (no offence here)...

There will be pretty much a lot of things to do... craft items, collect items, explore the world, raise the skills, build a houses/cities, pick flowers, kill the duchebags in world PvP and destroy their houses/cities (if they implement any, of course) etc.

You are very correct. I have never played a sandbox game or minecraft either. I look forward to playing this new game. I am only trying to wrap my brain around what exactly my in-game goals will be.

 

Thanks!

  ropenice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

8/04/13 8:18:51 PM#22
Originally posted by Giffen

Although there are no levels there are Tiers for each class you acquire.  I believe these Tiers go to 4 or 5.  The way it seems to me is you have to level up the Tiers for a class, you can tier up all classes you acquire and you don't have to actually play the class you are Tiering up.  They mentioned that for a warrior it might be required to acquire all pieces of a certain armor set to tier up from one tier to the next.

 

On top of that it appears you can level up your class abilities or maybe it's the weapon abilities.  They mentioned something like you gain points (sort of like AA points) over time and you can spend them in abilities to increase their power.

 

So there is "some" leveling/progression...it just seems like it is very small...sort of like if you started EQ2 and were already top level...then the only way to increase power is to tier up items and abilities...but no more leveling.

 

Also they mentioned that areas of the world will be designed for a certain Tier...(sort of like level based zones) where if you aren't close to that Tier in the class you are playing you will have problems.

Hmm, does this mean their is a gear treadmill, just done differently? I thought I read that with gear not giving stats their would be none.

Also, this sounds similar to old way of keeping you in the "correct" area for your level. If no levels, then they sort player by tier for where you adventure?

Seems kind of like they are doing things similar to past but just making it seem different. Trying to get my head around these "new" systems/ideas.

  Vhayne

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 532

8/04/13 8:20:04 PM#23

 

 

In my games now, my main goal is to level up and get better gear. This in turn also allows me to see new sights as well. 

I think you will be doing exactly that.  You will need higher "tiered" gear to adventure into the higher "tiered" areas.  But the "tiering" up of your character isn't just only with gear, but also with abilities and classes as well.  So acquiring those things will in essence be the same as getting exp or leveling up. 

  Divona

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/11
Posts: 164

8/04/13 8:20:24 PM#24

This except is explain the goal:

There are no levels in EQN, all of your progression will come from exploring the world, unlocking classes and experimenting with weapons and spells.

That’s right folks, EQN is bringing back the glory of exploration for purpose in that it’s going to actually ask you to, well, you know explore the world to unlock things. In the example Dave gave us, an adventurer comes upon a farmer who’s being besieged by legions of orcs.  He begs you for help. Or, if you prefer, you can help the orcs take control of the farm and do away with the farmer.  If you help the poor guy out, maybe you’ll find out he’s actually a hedge Wizard and will teach you the art of magic.

Or perhaps you help out the orcs instead (because orcs are awesome, that’s why) and they’re so impressed with your combat prowess that they’ll teach you how to become a mighty warrior.  There won’t be some golden exclamation point over the farmer’s head, and it won’t be clear from the get go how this whole experience would go down or what your rewards would be. And what’s more is that once you do it, it won’t be there for the next person.

That’s not to say that others couldn’t learn wizardry or the art of war, but rather this will be EQN’s way of combating guides that lay out exactly how to find and do everything in the game.  Dave and his team want to make sure that the sense of wonder, exploration, and accomplishment are put back into the MMORPG.

Think of it as collecting skills / equipment like a trading card games.

From: EverQuest Next Previews: The Future of the MMORPG Lies in Norrath [MMORPG.com]

  ropenice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

8/04/13 8:22:35 PM#25
Originally posted by Sahrhyn
Originally posted by Daaken
Originally posted by EQAbner

If there are no levels then what is the goal? Just making stuff? There has to be something. Do you just get "better" by getting better equipment?

 

I am not complaining. I just want to understand how this model works. I fully intend to play and be a paid subscriber if there are any benefits in doing so (and they offer it).

Build a world, live in that world, create memories that'll last a lifetime, have fun, collect phat lewts, raid epic bosses, explore anywhere, be known for being the most ruthless Shadow Knight/Tempest on my server, Kill People I think don't deserve to breathe the same air as me. 

 

Those are just some of the goals for me when the game launches.

I second reaching those noble goals good Daaken - tho I fear we are on opposite ends of the Knight's virtues.  Rest assured I plan to crush underfoot evil where it lives.. and turn it back to hell from whence it came.

Well said, good knight. I will aspire to make a hefty profit off both your goals and retire to my seaside palace with the best of wine, treasure and decadent delights. I hope this will be possible in game.

  dzoni87

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/08
Posts: 553

8/04/13 8:22:43 PM#26
Originally posted by EQAbner
Originally posted by dzoni87
Originally posted by EQAbner

If there are no levels then what is the goal? Just making stuff? There has to be something. Do you just get "better" by getting better equipment?

 

I am not complaining. I just want to understand how this model works. I fully intend to play and be a paid subscriber if there are any benefits in doing so (and they offer it).

I guess you havent played an sandbox MMO before (no offence here)...

There will be pretty much a lot of things to do... craft items, collect items, explore the world, raise the skills, build a houses/cities, pick flowers, kill the duchebags in world PvP and destroy their houses/cities (if they implement any, of course) etc.

You are very correct. I have never played a sandbox game or minecraft either. I look forward to playing this new game. I am only trying to wrap my brain around what exactly my in-game goals will be.

 

Thanks!

... and you are the most welcome

However, the fact is that we saw and know only of like 15% (if even that) of whole game. On the other hand, having played Ultima Online, SWG and a tiny bit of EvE, i can get a somewhat basic understanding of game's progress concept :)

 

Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online

  ropenice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

8/04/13 8:25:19 PM#27
Originally posted by Divona

This except is explain the goal:

There are no levels in EQN, all of your progression will come from exploring the world, unlocking classes and experimenting with weapons and spells.

That’s right folks, EQN is bringing back the glory of exploration for purpose in that it’s going to actually ask you to, well, you know explore the world to unlock things. In the example Dave gave us, an adventurer comes upon a farmer who’s being besieged by legions of orcs.  He begs you for help. Or, if you prefer, you can help the orcs take control of the farm and do away with the farmer.  If you help the poor guy out, maybe you’ll find out he’s actually a hedge Wizard and will teach you the art of magic.

Or perhaps you help out the orcs instead (because orcs are awesome, that’s why) and they’re so impressed with your combat prowess that they’ll teach you how to become a mighty warrior.  There won’t be some golden exclamation point over the farmer’s head, and it won’t be clear from the get go how this whole experience would go down or what your rewards would be. And what’s more is that once you do it, it won’t be there for the next person.

That’s not to say that others couldn’t learn wizardry or the art of war, but rather this will be EQN’s way of combating guides that lay out exactly how to find and do everything in the game.  Dave and his team want to make sure that the sense of wonder, exploration, and accomplishment are put back into the MMORPG.

Think of it as collecting skills / equipment like a trading card games.

From: EverQuest Next Previews: The Future of the MMORPG Lies in Norrath [MMORPG.com]

I do like the sound of a world where you can choose good/evil/neutral deeds that change character, but was wondering if these skills improve on use like in UO.

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2639

110100100

8/04/13 8:25:35 PM#28


Originally posted by Tygranir

Originally posted by EQAbner

Originally posted by dandurin They stress the point that tiers are not levels and you don't actually "get better".   Tiers unlock ability choices, ie customization options, they don't power up your hit points, DPS, or armor.   A brand new player can adventure with a veteran and not be at a disadvantage.    
I just don't get it. I can play for years and be no better than someone who started yesterday? This makes no sense to me. What exactly is the point of playing? What is the goal for your character? Why work your butt off if the guy that started this morning is no different? (not at a disadvantage)
Maybe you could just have fun playing the game? Odd concept, I know.

that is exactly what GW2 players told me before launch and i got bored pretty fast.

if i wanted to play a pointless game just for fun i wouldn't play an RPG, i play RPG's to build my character over time and make them stronger.

  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 576

8/04/13 8:28:03 PM#29
Originally posted by evianwater

I'm not really on board with this...if it was more like UO maybe. Requiring a set of gear to advance a "tier" ? That just sounds like a different type of time sink.

The way the dev explained it, it seems more like the Warrior got a quest from his class trainer to find an armor set, before he could undertake the next training session. They sound like class challenges. We also have an old example of a Druid having to find a secret glade to pray to get a new spell (or something like that).

 

  evianwater

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 313

8/04/13 8:31:30 PM#30

People seem to equate "Sandbox" with "no progression" and I dont know why lol.

 

It seems like those people never played UO or SWG (probably the two most succesful/ relatable sandbox games, along with EVE)

 

UO had a SKILL system that you *had* to progress in order to do things, ontop of that they had a gear treadmill that you *had* to do to see content.

 

Be a blacksmith : Skill progression/ no combat

Be a warrior : skill progression/gear progression

Mage : same..etc etc etc

 

The sandbox aspect came from the mix and match of different skills and such (this is what made UO and SWG so great)

 

So to sum it up, at least for me :

Crafting is viable as the main goal of a character

Mix and match "create-a-class" mechanics

Exploration

Housing (free roam housing, not instanced shit that's not very customizable)

Multiple ways to enjoy the game, all of which are valid

------

 

To me that's a sandbox game, and a very good one. Lack of skill/level progression doesn't make a game a sandbox, its a strange concept and I'm very confused as to how they're going to make a No stat-gear, no-level game work. 

We'll see, but I'm assuming they'll cave just like GW2 did. 

  zymurgeist

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5185

8/04/13 8:32:40 PM#31
Originally posted by EQAbner
Originally posted by Tygranir
Originally posted by EQAbner
Originally posted by dandurin

They stress the point that tiers are not levels and you don't actually "get better".

 

Tiers unlock ability choices, ie customization options, they don't power up your hit points, DPS, or armor.

 

A brand new player can adventure with a veteran and not be at a disadvantage.

 

 

I just don't get it. I can play for years and be no better than someone who started yesterday? This makes no sense to me. What exactly is the point of playing? What is the goal for your character? Why work your butt off if the guy that started this morning is no different? (not at a disadvantage)

Maybe you could just have fun playing the game? Odd concept, I know.

Please don't troll me. I just want to understand. This is foreign to me.

 

In my games now, my main goal is to level up and get better gear. This in turn also allows me to see new sights as well. 

He's not trolling you. Think of it this way. If you go to a movie or museum are you any better at anything that before you did? You should be entertained though. Maybe learned a thing or two. Some games are about entertainment not virtual advancement. Not that I believe EQN is anything but the standard progression in a new wrapper.  

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  Kiyoris

Novice Member

Joined: 7/13/13
Posts: 356

8/04/13 8:33:05 PM#32

I think they replaced grinding and xp with regular and public quests.

They're throwing a lot of things overboard:

-trinity

-aggro

-grinding

-progression

But the issue so far for me is that they haven't shown what they are replacing it with and seem to be in a "we're trying to figure out what to do now" stage.

We really have seen 0 gameplay so far outside of those few seconds where that warrior was spinning around.

  Victor_Kruger

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 210

8/04/13 8:36:44 PM#33
Originally posted by baphamet

 


Originally posted by Tygranir

Originally posted by EQAbner

Originally posted by dandurin They stress the point that tiers are not levels and you don't actually "get better".   Tiers unlock ability choices, ie customization options, they don't power up your hit points, DPS, or armor.   A brand new player can adventure with a veteran and not be at a disadvantage.    
I just don't get it. I can play for years and be no better than someone who started yesterday? This makes no sense to me. What exactly is the point of playing? What is the goal for your character? Why work your butt off if the guy that started this morning is no different? (not at a disadvantage)
Maybe you could just have fun playing the game? Odd concept, I know.

 

that is exactly what GW2 players told me before launch and i got bored pretty fast.

if i wanted to play a pointless game just for fun i wouldn't play an RPG, i play RPG's to build my character over time and make them stronger.

 

 

  Guildwars 2 is a themepark game , Sandbox games are different and are not for everyone. There is progression in EQ Next with different level of Tiers that progress your character. I think it comes done too what role-playing games(including pen and paper) are too you, some like to power level and care more about stats, others care more about story and role-playing. Sandbox games are more about story and living in the world interacting with other players and creating your own stories by doing what you want to do instead being told where to go with restrictions.

 

  ropenice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

8/04/13 8:53:41 PM#34
Originally posted by Victor_Krugermy character over time and make them stronger.

 

 

  Guildwars 2 is a themepark game , Sandbox games are different and are not for everyone. There is progression in EQ Next with different level of Tiers that progress your character. I think it comes done too what role-playing games(including pen and paper) are too you, some like to power level and care more about stats, others care more about story and role-playing. Sandbox games are more about story and living in the world interacting with other players and creating your own stories by doing what you want to instead being told where to go with restrictions.

 

As a DnD alum, I do like the idea of bringing a pnp rpg system to the world and never really liked the min/max approach. The thing will be how well they implement it. I want to group up to explore/fight and not zerg. Other games with the DE/public quests, it seems like no one wanted or needed to group to win through the encounters. I know some people don't like forced grouping, but it might be the only way to get people to group. If a high % of players don't choose to group, it will be much harder for others to get a group. And if the combat is action and without dependency on other classes (trinity), many won't group, leaving it hard to find group. But I am excited about the opportunity to be on the evil mobs side in a conflict.

  evianwater

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/09
Posts: 313

8/04/13 9:50:54 PM#35
Originally posted by ropenice
Originally posted by Victor_Krugermy character over time and make them stronger.

 

 

  Guildwars 2 is a themepark game , Sandbox games are different and are not for everyone. There is progression in EQ Next with different level of Tiers that progress your character. I think it comes done too what role-playing games(including pen and paper) are too you, some like to power level and care more about stats, others care more about story and role-playing. Sandbox games are more about story and living in the world interacting with other players and creating your own stories by doing what you want to instead being told where to go with restrictions.

 

As a DnD alum, I do like the idea of bringing a pnp rpg system to the world and never really liked the min/max approach. The thing will be how well they implement it. I want to group up to explore/fight and not zerg. Other games with the DE/public quests, it seems like no one wanted or needed to group to win through the encounters. I know some people don't like forced grouping, but it might be the only way to get people to group. If a high % of players don't choose to group, it will be much harder for others to get a group. And if the combat is action and without dependency on other classes (trinity), many won't group, leaving it hard to find group. But I am excited about the opportunity to be on the evil mobs side in a conflict.

Oh..there will be plenty of min/maxing. Go listen to the Class Panel. The min/maxing it seems will just come with the combination of classes and finding that perfect combo + items (they mentioned items will directly effect skills, like lowering costs, increasing damage of skills etc)

 

They threw around comparisons to League of Legends a lot and Magic the Gathering.

  Scorp2778

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/10
Posts: 31

8/04/13 9:55:26 PM#36
It sounds like gear progression and skill progression are what they hinted at in the panels in place of a leveling system. Not much was said on the skill progression, so I don't know anything specific.
  ropenice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

8/04/13 11:17:41 PM#37
Originally posted by evianwater
Originally posted by ropenice
Originally posted by Victor_Krugermy character over time and make them stronger.

 

 

  Guildwars 2 is a themepark game , Sandbox games are different and are not for everyone. There is progression in EQ Next with different level of Tiers that progress your character. I think it comes done too what role-playing games(including pen and paper) are too you, some like to power level and care more about stats, others care more about story and role-playing. Sandbox games are more about story and living in the world interacting with other players and creating your own stories by doing what you want to instead being told where to go with restrictions.

 

As a DnD alum, I do like the idea of bringing a pnp rpg system to the world and never really liked the min/max approach. The thing will be how well they implement it. I want to group up to explore/fight and not zerg. Other games with the DE/public quests, it seems like no one wanted or needed to group to win through the encounters. I know some people don't like forced grouping, but it might be the only way to get people to group. If a high % of players don't choose to group, it will be much harder for others to get a group. And if the combat is action and without dependency on other classes (trinity), many won't group, leaving it hard to find group. But I am excited about the opportunity to be on the evil mobs side in a conflict.

Oh..there will be plenty of min/maxing. Go listen to the Class Panel. The min/maxing it seems will just come with the combination of classes and finding that perfect combo + items (they mentioned items will directly effect skills, like lowering costs, increasing damage of skills etc)

 

They threw around comparisons to League of Legends a lot and Magic the Gathering.

I'm hoping the content will be so that you don't have to min/max to be successful. I hope they don't have to make it easier to accomplish this. A balanced group, that covers the necessary "roles" should be able to work, if they play well. I know people will min/max, but hoping any combo of class skills, if played well, can be viable.

Edit: i just noticed how many times I said "I hope". Sigh, tired of boring games. I just want one to go the extra mile and make things interesting again. If this game is too easy, I can't see it holding my interest. My main fear.

  superconducting

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/21/13
Posts: 705

8/05/13 12:05:30 AM#38

I find it hard to believe after all these posts nobody's mentioned the most important thing which goes to the core of your question:

What EQN has is a newer HORIZONTAL progression system. This is the opposite of the more traditional VERTICAL progression system you're used to.

 

Basically what it boils down to is this:

- In a horizontal progression system, you progress your character by unlocking more abilities and expanding your gear properties. Since there is no XP and no leveling, the playing field is by default even between all players. Thus skill ends up being supremely important and the major quality that differentiates players.

- In a vertical progression system, you progress your character by gaining levels and collecting gear. The main problems associated with this are (1) You have to grind to level up or gain gear; (2) Higher-level players are way more powerful than lower-level players.


Please read these to find out exactly the difference:

http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really

 

I hope that clarifies things for you.

  Sahrhyn

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 51

8/05/13 12:13:29 AM#39
Originally posted by EQAbner

If there are no levels then what is the goal? Just making stuff? There has to be something. Do you just get "better" by getting better equipment?

 

I am not complaining. I just want to understand how this model works. I fully intend to play and be a paid subscriber if there are any benefits in doing so (and they offer it).

Think of it like this.  You start the game at lvl 50 - capped.  Now go raid and pluder!  Explore!

I am glad they've done away with leveling.. that mechanic in itself is a burden.  I capped one toon in SWTOR.  I would have loved to play all the other classes just to see the class stories - but I did not want to grind through 50 levels just to see the good stuff.

They are give us the good stuff up front.  The land will be ours for the taking.  We wont have to be weak for days and weeks on end.. levels that many just blow by anyway.

 


 

  Bad.dog

Elite Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 981

8/05/13 12:19:57 AM#40
Originally posted by EQAbner
Originally posted by Bad.dog
Originally posted by Suraknar
Originally posted by EQAbner

If there are no levels then what is the goal? Just making stuff? There has to be something. Do you just get "better" by getting better equipment?

 

I am not complaining. I just want to understand how this model works. I fully intend to play and be a paid subscriber if there are any benefits in doing so (and they offer it).

You get better by engaging in better challenges.

Levelng up a character may make the character better compared to a lower level character, but does it really make the player better?

With this system you are invited to become a better player, and as a reward you have more options opening to you to further customize your character according to your emergent play style which in turn permit you to become an even better player and engage in more challenging adventure.

This is actually a feature I am looking forward to with EQN.

 

You will be playing a skill based game not a gear based game ... to get better you actually have to improve your skills not just farm gear

When you say skills I assume you mean in-game character skill rather than human playing abilities. That is essentially leveling a character to be better and at less of a disadvantage than someone who is new. 

 

I am not complaining about anything. I just want to understand.

No I'm meaning your actual human playing abilities more knowledge more practice more skills ...just like playing a sport

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