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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Is there really no trinity system?

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64 posts found
  BloodyViking

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/12
Posts: 123

8/04/13 11:46:56 AM#41

I dont think GW2 is the right game to use for comparison. To me the EQN systems seems more like The Secret World.

 

In EQN it seems they do away with the Trinity system in term of pigeonhole'ing players into a set role. That doesnt mean there wont be a need for healing or tanking.

 

Also, its important to underline the panels stating that players will not have the kind of steam-rolling power that is shown in the show-off combat videos. Which means players cant just faceroll the keyboard to win.

 

It's still way too early to judge if EQN will be a good game or not, but so far it -looks- good. To me it seems they have taken what Funcom did with The Secret World to the next level. Where TSW had a very narrow and cramped geography, EQN does the right thing in allowing for a more sandbox geographical setting.

 

What I have taken away from the videos and interviews is that SOE has researched A LOT into other MMOs (and games in general) from the last decade. This along with their enormous experience with MMOs sets a foundation that IMO sets EQN appart from any other current MMO project. I think SOE will succeed. The big concerns however is the mass appeal and the state of launch. They cant afford a halfassed launch with bugridden content. Too many companies has done that and failed miserably. Also, I think that its 100% certain there will be no FFA PvP. There might be dedicated servers for that type of gamers, but the main focus will be limited PvP. Guaranteed.

  steelheartx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/08/06
Posts: 396

8/04/13 11:57:34 AM#42

Everyone seems to be comparing EQN to GW2 (which is fair), but has anyone else seen the striking resemblance to another past SOE game......SWG (as it was at launch)?

 

Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at www.grievanceguild.com !

  Neo_Liberty

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/08/06
Posts: 425

8/04/13 12:03:57 PM#43
Originally posted by Mightyking
Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

I can understand the frustration.. gw2 was fun for me... but i can understand why some don't like the lack of order...

based on what the devs said.. it doesn't seem to be like gw2 at all. For example take a mob who chooses agro based on who does the most dmg... old school tanks would never pull agro because of the lack of dmg.. but they mentioned that tanks will do great amounts of dmg... the issue here is how the ai responds and what each person or group decides to do before entering a battle... for example if the dps guy does more dmg then the tank.. make sure the dps guy slows up on his skill usage to make sure that the tank maintains the highest dmg output in order to maintain agro... or if the dps guy does pull agro... the wizard throws up a wall in between the mob and the dps... there are so many ways to do combat. I don't understand why it has to be the same forever.  they even showed shield bashes. that is a cc ability if implemented correctly.. a shield bash either pushes back... stuns.. or both... such abilities can be very useful in maintaining the safety of your group members... all those things mentioned can be easily done with out a taunt mechanic..

Certainly, and I was one of the people who wasn't opposed to removing the trinity 2 years ago, when GW2 made this announcement. At the time it was a refreshing idea, and it's potential is outlined exactly by how you describe the possibilities.

But then I wonder, why did Anet fail? (I'm sure someone is going to correct me on the use of fail) And what does SOE have to really make it work?

Right now, due to the experience I have with GW2 and in lesser extent with Rift, I say this is a major design flaw. But if SOE does come up at a later point and detail how exactly they are dealing with the issues, I will be jumping with joy. Combat is for most people the single most important thing you do in an MMO. They got to get it right, or whatever other innovative stuff they have might fail as well.

I think it "failed" because gw2 failed to balance the pve aspect of the game.. either the mobs are too strong or the characters are too weak.  but i didn't personally dislike it at all.. what i disliked was the character ability animations and lack of character customization.

  wizardanim

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/07
Posts: 279

8/04/13 12:10:48 PM#44
Originally posted by Dullahan

Seems they changed their mind, or someone misunderstood.

There is no trinity.  There is no tank, no set dps, no healers.  No one will be watching other players health bars, everyone will participate in combat.  Its mandatory.  No role systems at all, just run around and mash buttons.  No aggro system because mobs have "evolved", so now they indiscriminately attack whoever they feel like, though never smart enough to know where or how players will continue to evade them and thus will die miserably in all the chaos.

Its horrible.

They need to stick with trinity or watch everyone quit their game in a month (or during beta) just like everyone did in GW2.  Like you said, if they are going to piss on the role system and allow everyone to be everything, then let another player role up as tank and let them tank.  No reason to double fuk the system by adding both on the fly role changing (blah) AND no aggro system.

This isn't true.  The AI changes this.  It is not mashing buttons.

Example: You and your friend find a monster, your friend attacks first.  The mob focuses on him at first.  Your friend positions himself behind the monster, the monster realizes that your friend is there, and backs away at an angle, attacking you both with a front sweeping attack before your friend can backstab him.  Now, this sweeping attack hurts ... a few attacks and you'll be done for.  You miss the indication that an attack is coming - your friend must react, and use a save to help you, or disable the monster (stun, etc).  You both immobilize the monster, and defeat it.  This requires well-timed reaction, not button mashing. Sounds a lot more fun than standing in a certain formation and mashing buttons, as you say.  

It is not 'attack whoever they want' - the mobs are smart, and have motives and personalities.  Each mob will react differently because their personality is different.  It will promote knowledge and behavior of world and its creatures.  Not the basic knowledge of the combat system.

The concept of the trinity requires a low-performing AI, as a tank needs to be able to hold aggro in trinity for the core system to work.  If the tank cant hold aggro it falls apart.  Mashing buttons? What about mashing taunt and threat abilities to match well performing DPS?  Aggro systems are always the same.  I wanted to see something new, this will provide just that.  As a dev said at the panel I attended, "We don't want a character insulting the creatures mom, and being oblivious to the players doing free damage."

 

  Resia

Novice Member

Joined: 9/19/09
Posts: 119

8/04/13 12:16:02 PM#45

I agree with an earlier poster, they kind of keep contradicting themselves in their answers. I get the feeling there are many overall decisions not set yet, and its just smoke answers right now on several mechanics.

 

Besides does it really matter what they say the  how the game is "designed" to handle group play. They already said many years ago many things in EQ was developed by how the community (the players) ended up handling it. They didn't anticipate their players doing a lot of things.

"Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better." parrotpholk

  ice-vortex

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 906

8/04/13 12:27:45 PM#46
Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
Originally posted by Mightyking
Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

I can understand the frustration.. gw2 was fun for me... but i can understand why some don't like the lack of order...

based on what the devs said.. it doesn't seem to be like gw2 at all. For example take a mob who chooses agro based on who does the most dmg... old school tanks would never pull agro because of the lack of dmg.. but they mentioned that tanks will do great amounts of dmg... the issue here is how the ai responds and what each person or group decides to do before entering a battle... for example if the dps guy does more dmg then the tank.. make sure the dps guy slows up on his skill usage to make sure that the tank maintains the highest dmg output in order to maintain agro... or if the dps guy does pull agro... the wizard throws up a wall in between the mob and the dps... there are so many ways to do combat. I don't understand why it has to be the same forever.  they even showed shield bashes. that is a cc ability if implemented correctly.. a shield bash either pushes back... stuns.. or both... such abilities can be very useful in maintaining the safety of your group members... all those things mentioned can be easily done with out a taunt mechanic..

Certainly, and I was one of the people who wasn't opposed to removing the trinity 2 years ago, when GW2 made this announcement. At the time it was a refreshing idea, and it's potential is outlined exactly by how you describe the possibilities.

But then I wonder, why did Anet fail? (I'm sure someone is going to correct me on the use of fail) And what does SOE have to really make it work?

Right now, due to the experience I have with GW2 and in lesser extent with Rift, I say this is a major design flaw. But if SOE does come up at a later point and detail how exactly they are dealing with the issues, I will be jumping with joy. Combat is for most people the single most important thing you do in an MMO. They got to get it right, or whatever other innovative stuff they have might fail as well.

I think it "failed" because gw2 failed to balance the pve aspect of the game.. either the mobs are too strong or the characters are too weak.  but i didn't personally dislike it at all.. what i disliked was the character ability animations and lack of character customization.

GW2 made a key fundamental mistake that EQN is not. GW2 removed direct heals. This sole fact changed their overall philosophy when making encounters. The problem is, they don't know how to make an encounter for the system they created.

Comparing EQN to GW2 is largely pointless because other than that they are both action based, EQN is simply different. It doesn't remove direct healing, not everyone can do everything such as healing oneself at the same time. Another key difference between GW2 and EQN is that EQN has mana/energy whereas that was one more element GW2 removed.

  azarhal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 537

8/04/13 12:44:07 PM#47
Originally posted by BloodyViking

I dont think GW2 is the right game to use for comparison. To me the EQN systems seems more like The Secret World.

In EQN it seems they do away with the Trinity system in term of pigeonhole'ing players into a set role. That doesnt mean there wont be a need for healing or tanking.

EQN is nothing like The Secret World. TSW is a pure 100% tab-targeted  trinity based combat system. There are threat building mechanics in tank weapons. There are direct heals in healing weapons and when you do "dungeons" you want a tank and a healer. Plenty of LFM Healer or LFM Tank in chat.

Dev already said that EQN has no taunts and no aggro management for the players. Now the question is did they got toward GW1 or GW2. GW1 didn't have the trinity (no taunt/aggro management), but healers were important in that game (in both direct heals and protection buff).

GW2 is another story, mostly because Zerkers (a build type) deal damage so fast that any other kind of build is currently useless.

  Mothanos

Elite Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 1807

8/04/13 12:57:06 PM#48

But what is the point if your "healers" and "wizards" get nuked over and over and you stand there with sword and shield ? might as well swing your dick around and poke them with dick in hand.

There is no "smart" AI, it will not ever be present or we will always lose from npc's..
The trick it to make you believe they are smart and thats trick is as old as Dungeons and dragons.

Many people have explained it already, in combat npc's go A for the weaker armor, B for the lowest health target, C for the highest dps in group, D for the closest target.
This is how npc's are scripted, some npc's might have diffrent scripts, some scripts may change as more npc's aer pulled or present.
But it will always be a A - B - C - D script.

Its an illusion....smart AI would roflstomp any human being as they can calculate things we cant even do with 5 persons at the same time.


With no "trinity" you just get GW2 design of Zerg version 2.0.
Specialy bigger world bosses or bosses where more and more people can join.
It will scale in damage , attacks, diffrent spells, more HP, etc etc.
Zerg zerg zerg die zerg zerg zerg die etc etc etc.

We all played GW2 and we all know this shit right ?

With healers and tanks you can create realy complex scripts, bosses that need min maxing, competend players and developers with a brain to design these encounters.

WoW raiding in Vanila and TBC took it to a whole new level.
Hardcore contend was fucking hardcore contend, only the best guilds in the world completed it with sub par gear, there where guilds that even struggled with the best in slot items to tackle the contend many months later.

I even went back with some random dudes 15 levels later and 3 xpacs and we still managed to wipe like noobs.

What iam trying to say is that Trinity means Extreme extra work for developers.
They need to keep being creative with scripts and min maxing.

While with no healer and tank they can get away with much easier stuff and less developer time to make new contend.
Creating hardcore contend takes tremendous amounts of work, both in developing and testing.

Ask me or any other "1 percenter" "Hardcore Raider" "yes i was a dungeon crawler 24/7 basement dweller wow addict with nerdscreams comming out of my basement when we got a server 1st"

No healer or tank takes away the epicness.....

Are you realy having fun running away around corners low on health ?
Are you realy going to have fun with 50 other people around you AoE all that shit without effort ?
Are you realy going to have fun doing a world boss that only takes numbers ?
No skill requirement just buttan mashing ? 8 skills ?


We have GW2 for that shit dont we ?
Why another one :( ?
EQN could be so much more then this incarnation of GW2 version 2.0 :(


if iam totaly wrong about the trinity i am making a feel out of myself :)
But i clearly heared that there will be no Tanks and no Healers.

http://speedtest.net/result/2112016336.png

  Tiller

Guide

Joined: 9/14/05
Posts: 4967

8/04/13 1:07:07 PM#49
I don't know why people try so hard to hang one to classic trinity. I as well as many others have been able to adjust and cope just fine in gw2. No gw2 is not a game you can play with one hand  on a hot pocket and one spamming heals and buffs for a group in the background while they attack, or just auto attacking while dps lays down damage from afar never fearing death as long as they stay back . You have to run around, heal yourself, dodge ect. Not just stand in one spot and shoot, which is how it should be. Games evolve, players should too; or just stick to playing your old games and stop complaining about new ones you will never play.


SWG pre-cu vet, elder Jedi, elder BH -Bloodfin

  BloodyViking

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/12
Posts: 123

8/04/13 1:19:24 PM#50
Originally posted by azarhal
Originally posted by BloodyViking

I dont think GW2 is the right game to use for comparison. To me the EQN systems seems more like The Secret World.

In EQN it seems they do away with the Trinity system in term of pigeonhole'ing players into a set role. That doesnt mean there wont be a need for healing or tanking.

EQN is nothing like The Secret World. TSW is a pure 100% tab-targeted  trinity based combat system. There are threat building mechanics in tank weapons. There are direct heals in healing weapons and when you do "dungeons" you want a tank and a healer. Plenty of LFM Healer or LFM Tank in chat.

Dev already said that EQN has no taunts and no aggro management for the players. Now the question is did they got toward GW1 or GW2. GW1 didn't have the trinity (no taunt/aggro management), but healers were important in that game (in both direct heals and protection buff).

GW2 is another story, mostly because Zerkers (a build type) deal damage so fast that any other kind of build is currently useless.

Are you a retard? Just asking so I know if I should give you some slack or not. The EQN class system is as presented pretty much a copy of what TSW did except that you need to discover the classes. The entire -point- of classes is to give different types of approaches to combat. TSW has pretty much the same mix-and-match ability system where you can take from some classes (or skillsets rather) and put together your own build.

 

How combat will actually work in EQN we dont know yet. Sure, taunts and threat generation boosts for "tank classes" might not exist in EQN. But classes will still generate threat on mobs in some kind of fashion that the AI will react to. There might be no dedicated tank-type threat-holder, but there sure needs to be some kind of healing involved.

 

The Secret World is a much closer comparison in class and character design than GW2.

  BloodyViking

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/12
Posts: 123

8/04/13 1:24:36 PM#51

"WoW raiding in Vanila and TBC took it to a whole new level."

 

You mean the level right under Everquest 1? You think these guys dont understand raiding and scripted boss encounters? These guys laid the bloody groundwork that WoW thread on. WoW doesnt even compare to EQ1 raids.

 

Juts blows my mind how the WoW-kid generation think they know EVERYTHING and WoW defined and created EVERYTHING. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

  Thebrave246

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/07
Posts: 167

8/04/13 1:30:08 PM#52
Ok so in this game the trinity system is there and it isn't. Basically meaning that with all the class variations you can kind of heal yourself or other depending on what you want your loadout to be based on your classes. You can switch to your heal anti-caster loadout if needed in the group or a tank loadout if the group needs it, so basically there is and isn't based on the people in the group and what kind of classes and loadouts they have. Realllllly cool concept.
  Tiller

Guide

Joined: 9/14/05
Posts: 4967

8/04/13 1:32:36 PM#53
Originally posted by BloodyViking

"WoW raiding in Vanila and TBC took it to a whole new level."

 

You mean the level right under Everquest 1? You think these guys dont understand raiding and scripted boss encounters? These guys laid the bloody groundwork that WoW thread on. WoW doesnt even compare to EQ1 raids.

 

Juts blows my mind how the WoW-kid generation think they know EVERYTHING and WoW defined and created EVERYTHING. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

I also seem to remember some exclusive one time  server events that took place that were huge deals in eq1. Really EQ1 laid the the foundation for many games, even gw2 with their world events. More I think about it, the more I realize EQ1 was really what started it all.


SWG pre-cu vet, elder Jedi, elder BH -Bloodfin

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3150

8/04/13 1:42:27 PM#54
Originally posted by Tiller
I don't know why people try so hard to hang one to classic trinity. I as well as many others have been able to adjust and cope just fine in gw2. No gw2 is not a game you can play with one hand  on a hot pocket and one spamming heals and buffs for a group in the background while they attack, or just auto attacking while dps lays down damage from afar never fearing death as long as they stay back . You have to run around, heal yourself, dodge ect. Not just stand in one spot and shoot, which is how it should be. Games evolve, players should too; or just stick to playing your old games and stop complaining about new ones you will never play.

     You see that as good game play.. I don't .. I see GW2 as good solo combat because that is primarily what it is..  I still play GW2 today, but the only real time you need a group is when you need a "revive" while fighting for your life.. Oh sure various classes can toss up a "shield" for a few seconds is something happens, or another uses a group small heal once every 10 seconds.. But for the most part, combat is everyone contributing to the DPS pool..  Everyone is 90% dps, then you have your 10% other stuff..  But lets be honest here, just because your 10% might have tanking abilities or heals or CC.. Doesn't mean you are a healer or tank.. 

     Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of the trinity either..  The trinity by itself has caused many problems such as group or raid break down because of a missing role.. There were some encounters that couldn't be defeated without someone to CC, and that too is wrong.. What devs are doing now is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.. It is very easy to design classes that can both dps and have role abilities and let the GROUP make their decisions how they want to perform.. 

     Since I'm familiar with GW2, I'll use their action combat as an example.. You have the Mesmer, which is basically a dps role using illusions of themselves to dps and take damage.. It really doesn't have ANY meaningful CC at all.. Why not allow the Mesmer the ability to charm one mob (take it as pet) and control it to fight another.. As far as the mob is concerned, the Mesmer isn't involved in the fight at all so it has no reason to agro on the Mesmer..  Elementalist could have a variety of elemental pets like a Mage did in EQ..  Then lets take Necromancer.. OMFG.. I hate that profession because I go thru freaking pets like water thru a sieve.. The pets seldom hold agro and if they do, they die before the end of the fight.. For me it's a pure DPS race to kill the mob before it kills my pet and me..  I would of liked it if GW2 actually had a Cleric profession that could dps when soloing, but offer group healing when grouped.. Instead of everyone running around trying to "revive" each other all the damn time..

  Justsomenoob

Novice Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 869

8/04/13 1:44:20 PM#55

For people wary of the game turning into GW2 type combat that's really all on the developers as far as how they build encounters.

 

GW2 had very hard hitting mobs but with big telegraphs for example.   That led to one type of play.   If attacks didn't hit so hard but were very difficult to consistently avoid, things would change quite a bit.    Then even though there's no "dedicated healer", having someone that has that big AOE heal or something to keep everyone rolling would be very useful even though not required.

  Tiller

Guide

Joined: 9/14/05
Posts: 4967

8/04/13 1:53:52 PM#56
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Tiller
I don't know why people try so hard to hang one to classic trinity. I as well as many others have been able to adjust and cope just fine in gw2. No gw2 is not a game you can play with one hand  on a hot pocket and one spamming heals and buffs for a group in the background while they attack, or just auto attacking while dps lays down damage from afar never fearing death as long as they stay back . You have to run around, heal yourself, dodge ect. Not just stand in one spot and shoot, which is how it should be. Games evolve, players should too; or just stick to playing your old games and stop complaining about new ones you will never play.

     You see that as good game play.. I don't .. I see GW2 as good solo combat because that is primarily what it is..  I still play GW2 today, but the only real time you need a group is when you need a "revive" while fighting for your life.. Oh sure various classes can toss up a "shield" for a few seconds is something happens, or another uses a group small heal once every 10 seconds.. But for the most part, combat is everyone contributing to the DPS pool..  Everyone is 90% dps, then you have your 10% other stuff..  But lets be honest here, just because your 10% might have tanking abilities or heals or CC.. Doesn't mean you are a healer or tank.. 

     Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of the trinity either..  The trinity by itself has caused many problems such as group or raid break down because of a missing role.. There were some encounters that couldn't be defeated without someone to CC, and that too is wrong.. What devs are doing now is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.. It is very easy to design classes that can both dps and have role abilities and let the GROUP make their decisions how they want to perform.. 

     Since I'm familiar with GW2, I'll use their action combat as an example.. You have the Mesmer, which is basically a dps role using illusions of themselves to dps and take damage.. It really doesn't have ANY meaningful CC at all.. Why not allow the Mesmer the ability to charm one mob (take it as pet) and control it to fight another.. As far as the mob is concerned, the Mesmer isn't involved in the fight at all so it has no reason to agro on the Mesmer..  Elementalist could have a variety of elemental pets like a Mage did in EQ..  Then lets take Necromancer.. OMFG.. I hate that profession because I go thru freaking pets like water thru a sieve.. The pets seldom hold agro and if they do, they die before the end of the fight.. For me it's a pure DPS race to kill the mob before it kills my pet and me..  I would of liked it if GW2 actually had a Cleric profession that could dps when soloing, but offer group healing when grouped.. Instead of everyone running around trying to "revive" each other all the damn time..

I hear ya. and agree on your points. it is hard at times without a healer and makes some group runs nothing but chaos.  I think what devs are trying to get away from is the class requirements for groups, healers being the most important role, sometimes alienating other classes from groups. It sucks when you are told you can't run a dungeon because the group has to many dps players already. The only solution the have been able to come up with is what we see in gw2, or duel classing. Can't give group healers to all classes either,If everyone was a group healer (even tanks) no one would die.  The best thing they came up with is everyone heals themselves, group buffs, and everyone can rezz. Maybe we will see something better someday.


SWG pre-cu vet, elder Jedi, elder BH -Bloodfin

  Kilmar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/13/07
Posts: 846

8/04/13 1:54:47 PM#57
This is stupid, the worst feature of GW2 was the absence of the trinity.
  Dullahan

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 741

Death to Themepark.

8/04/13 2:12:02 PM#58
One day devs will get over this "down with aggro" trend and they will learn that aggro is the pillar of mob AI.  One does not simply remove aggro, one adds to it.  Removing aggro and tanks ability to taunt or somehow block mobs from other players, effectively removes the foundation for both MOB AI and the rpg role system.  Guess roles are kind of a joke tho in EQN.  It will be a flavor of the month like LoL.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
-
Awaiting The Repopulation, and Pantheon ROTF.

Intrigued by Star Citizen and Archeage.
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Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  Burrick

Novice Member

Joined: 7/03/09
Posts: 9

8/04/13 2:14:42 PM#59
Originally posted by Kilmar
This is stupid, the worst feature of GW2 was the absence of the trinity.

Totally agree.

Totally gutted.

Totally GW2 clone.

  krage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/22/11
Posts: 408

8/04/13 2:29:01 PM#60

Lets assume the game has a system similar to GW2 as many of you are assuming as fact.

If any of you have played GW2 seriously then you know there actually is an aggro and tanking system. I've run many dungeons with friends and we all have specific roles, although not locked into those roles.

Aggro in GW2 works as the following

  • closest target to them
  • who is dealing damage
  • top damage dealers
  • who is using a shield / has more toughness and overall armor
  • Rezzing aggro
And yes this is working as intended, we actually have a Guardian tank in our group and on my engineer I am the kiting tank, big difference is, when you have aggro you cannot face tank forever, or hold aggro 100% of the time depending on how the battle is going.
 
SOOOOOooooo...if a similar but more in depth system is used in EQ Next incorporating NPC behavior by likes/dislikes + consideration to Damage, Shields, CC and more then I am very interested in at least giving the system a shot.
 
I can agree the GW2 one is not the best, and I would've preferred more rigid roles but its not as zergy as people make it out to be...which leads me to believe alot of those people havent played the game seriously and know very little about it.
 
Edit: As for the healing system all classes have more than enough heals to manage themselves, plus healing skills from others...and thats not counting smart players who actually combo off water fields.

 

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