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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » No minimap and insta travel

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145 posts found
  sunshadow21

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 332

8/02/13 6:12:04 PM#101
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Shadowguy64
 

 

That's why they need to stop giving everyone 20/20 vision. Why isn't there a near sighted gnome? 

Because no one will play a VIDEO game when they cannot see the video?

 

But it'd be more IMMERSIVE and REALISTIC!!

 

I was trying to be sarcastic. Tho toying with vision could be something done. Like being able to see far away or in the darkness without a torch.

hahah i got that.

It is funny that people think that games should be immersive and realistic as opposed to be fun.

 

Not really; some people dare to think that a game could be both at the same time.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/02/13 6:28:50 PM#102
Originally posted by sunshadow21

And yet, FFXI worked fine. Travel was changed by coming across someone needing help or someone spawning something they couldn't handle, and pulling it across the paths of other players, or similar things. A well designed zone lets the different players create the interesting things that can happen while traveling.

Er, this discussion is built upon players disliking slow travel.  They dislike it in games where you can stumble across other players in the same way you seem to be describing FFXI, so obviously stumbling upon others completely fails to make slow travel worth it.

I imagine the following things were true of FFXI travel:

  • You didn't stumble upon another player 100% of the time.  So all of your travel was boring during those times.
  • The times you did stumble upon another player, you still had to travel the full remaining distance after helping them. 

So it just seems to take us back to the original argument: slow travel is an overwhelming waste of players time.

Really to fix the problem with dynamic gameplay it's much more than simply having dynamic content in between locations.  It's about having that content replace travel.

If someone filmed the ultra-boring "Lord of the Rings, in Real-Time" movie, it would last 1 year and be composed 99% of uneventful scenes (characters traveling or sleeping or eating.)  Adding 30 days of eventful new scenes to the movie would help, but it wouldn't overcome the fact that the movie is still like 11.5 months worth of utterly boring content.  

  sunshadow21

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 332

8/02/13 6:46:18 PM#103
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by sunshadow21

And yet, FFXI worked fine. Travel was changed by coming across someone needing help or someone spawning something they couldn't handle, and pulling it across the paths of other players, or similar things. A well designed zone lets the different players create the interesting things that can happen while traveling.

Er, this discussion is built upon players disliking slow travel.  They dislike it in games where you can stumble across other players in the same way you seem to be describing FFXI, so obviously stumbling upon others completely fails to make slow travel worth it.

I imagine the following things were true of FFXI travel:

  • You didn't stumble upon another player 100% of the time.  So all of your travel was boring during those times.
  • The times you did stumble upon another player, you still had to travel the full remaining distance after helping them. 

So it just seems to take us back to the original argument: slow travel is an overwhelming waste of players time.

Really to fix the problem with dynamic gameplay it's much more than simply having dynamic content in between locations.  It's about having that content replace travel.

If someone filmed the ultra-boring "Lord of the Rings, in Real-Time" movie, it would last 1 year and be composed 99% of uneventful scenes (characters traveling or sleeping or eating.)  Adding 30 days of eventful new scenes to the movie would help, but it wouldn't overcome the fact that the movie is still like 11.5 months worth of utterly boring content.  

You seem to be arguing that the devs have to hand you fun every moment in the game or its a waste of time, and that's a gulf we'll never bridge. It's not the dev's responsibility to make everything fun 100% of the time, it's the dev's responsibility to give the players the tools they need to have an overall fun experience. If the players don't use those tools, or think that the game isn't going to have at least some kind of downtime or repetitive content, no MMO will ever be able to satisfy them. Unlike other genres where devs create the content, push it out there, and move on to the next project, the environment that MMOs operate in require an investment of time and effort from both devs and players that isn't present in other genres. Slow travel is part of that.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/02/13 8:02:19 PM#104
Originally posted by sunshadow21

You seem to be arguing that the devs have to hand you fun every moment in the game or its a waste of time, and that's a gulf we'll never bridge. It's not the dev's responsibility to make everything fun 100% of the time, it's the dev's responsibility to give the players the tools they need to have an overall fun experience. If the players don't use those tools, or think that the game isn't going to have at least some kind of downtime or repetitive content, no MMO will ever be able to satisfy them. Unlike other genres where devs create the content, push it out there, and move on to the next project, the environment that MMOs operate in require an investment of time and effort from both devs and players that isn't present in other genres. Slow travel is part of that.

What I'm suggesting is that games need reasonable pacing.

What I'm suggesting is for every piece of a game to carry its own weight.

The movie analogy should've made that super obvious:

  • Lord of the Rings as a real-time movie would take 1 full year to watch.  It would be 99% dull travel and sleep.  This is obviously piss-poor pacing, because the travel parts wouldn't carry their own weight.  Because they have no reason to exist, they shouldn't be there.
  • If the movie even involved 10% of those scenes, it would still be ridiculously poorly-paced and be over a month long.
  • Conversely if the movie involved no transition scenes whatsoever, and when one scene ends, the next scene instantly began, it would also be poorly-paced.  It'd watch like a schizophrenic mess.
  • But the sweet spot -- the right pacing -- is to involve short transition sequences.  The event of one scene ends, accomplishments are celebrated (or setbacks are reinforced,) and then the camera briefly shows someone riding a horse, and then the next few shots establish the location of the next scene.
Point being that a certain amount of minimal travel is required to create the right transition pacing between "scenes" in a game, but that excessive travel goes far beyond this.  It's not the year-long LOTR in its ridiculousness, but it's definitely the month-long version.  Conversely, games with instant travel still involve that bit of travel which happens after you instantly travel to a waypoint -- so they're actually almost perfectly aligned with the pacing viewers want in their entertainment.
 
The reason for this is rooted in the purpose behind the scenes.  When one scene ends, you need the closure-shot, the travel-shot, and the establishing-shot.  Each has a purpose.
 
It's identical in games: all expenditures of the player's time need to have a reason to justify their existence, or they're a waste.
  Bladestrom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 2724

8/02/13 8:31:41 PM#105
People like slow travel, many don't. Some people can't handle different opinions and get stuck in a mental rut where they just cannot understand 'different'. A sandbox game with a sophisticated virtual world for example has no pacing, but does rely on player emotional investment (not just adrenalin).

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (9500 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(850 elementalist)

Now playing GW2/vanilla wow

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/02/13 10:25:58 PM#106
Originally posted by Bladestrom
People like slow travel, many don't. Some people can't handle different opinions and get stuck in a mental rut where they just cannot understand 'different'. A sandbox game with a sophisticated virtual world for example has no pacing, but does rely on player emotional investment (not just adrenalin).

Virtual worlds do not exist in outside time and space.  They have pacing.  It's just a dramatically slower pacing than normal games.

The reason there's a niche who enjoys that sort of game is they highly value the type of gameplay found in them (and under-value the gameplay found in other games) which results in the time being "worth it" from their perspective.

But the joke's on them in a way, since most of the type of gameplay they enjoy could be gained without the excessive downtime of those games.  Really the only reason it isn't is that there isn't really a game offering that correct mix of gameplay (combining a player-driven world economy where resources exist at discrete locations, with a gameplay feature that frees players from having to manually do the traveling and hauling themselves.)

Also you're wrong to imply that pacing only matters to adrenaline-driven entertainment.   The wrong pacing can ruin the mood of a drama.  The wrong pacing can completely dismantle comedy.  Pacing is critically important to every form of entertainment. And really the Value per Time Investment relationship is a factor of every aspect of our lives, not just entertainment. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17870

8/02/13 10:42:40 PM#107
Originally posted by sunshadow21
 

Not really; some people dare to think that a game could be both at the same time.

Of course. Wishful thinking is allowed.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17870

8/02/13 10:44:36 PM#108
Originally posted by Axehilt

The reason there's a niche who enjoys that sort of game is they highly value the type of gameplay found in them (and under-value the gameplay found in other games) which results in the time being "worth it" from their perspective.

You don't have to explain why there is niche. People like different things. Everyone got that. In fact, didn't the post you are responding to note the some like slow travel and some don't?

The market decides whether there is enough for a particular type of customers to produce a AAA game for.

 

  YoungCaesar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 145

 
OP  8/02/13 10:56:06 PM#109
Well okay there should be open world pvp for no insta travel and no minimap to work. Just anything could be trouble along the way to another city, of course ítems shouldnt make you invincible vs noobies so its not a griefers Paradise...
  iixviiiix

Elite Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 294

8/02/13 11:44:01 PM#110
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by sunshadow21

 

So it just seems to take us back to the original argument: slow travel is an overwhelming waste of players time.

Let just discuss about your point slow travel are waste of player's time.

It depend what kind of game.

If it a adventure game then it not waste , it part of gameplay, where you need to go around and discover the world.

 

It not like every MMORPGs out here and those will be make are same dungeon crawl like WOW (most famous example)

So we can't just call it waste of time (for all game) , it depend what game we put it in.

If a game where player's goals are instance dungeons play , then we shouldn't take away instant travel because instant travel are needed and slow travel aren't part of it dungeon crawl play.

 

Op only said it interested idea and like to see if it could have a good use , not like he said WOW or D3 ( lol i use it again as example) need slow travel .

 

PS:Most post just argument about people's personal like , it wasn't bad because it show how about market think about this idea , but i feel pointless to argu about people's like.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17870

8/03/13 1:49:26 AM#111
Originally posted by iixviiiix

So we can't just call it waste of time (for all game) , it depend what game we put it in.

If a game where player's goals are instance dungeons play , then we shouldn't take away instant travel because instant travel are needed and slow travel aren't part of it dungeon crawl play.

 

 

Sure, let's be specific,

In the combat-centric, LFD heavy modern MMOs, slow travel is a waste of players' time. Accurately enough for you?

In an adventure game (like a point & click adventure), there is little travel. I have been playing Testament of Sherlock Homes, which is presentative adventure games. You don't back-track much. You have instanced fast travel to interesting locations, and each location is made up with a few rooms (or the biggest is like several street). You are not required to backtrack or travel a lot. Each room has interesting stuff going on.

 

  Helleri

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 631

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”- Henry Ford

8/03/13 3:26:21 AM#112
Originally posted by YoungCaesar
Who would like an MMORPG with these characteristics? It would help tons with immersion and making it a real world, an unnescesary hassle for others... No ingame map with a marker for your toon so you can actually get lost, altho you would get a compass or something and a regular map

 

Mini-Maps:

I do not see how not having a mini-map would help with the immersiveness of my own experience. However, I can see how not having one would detract from it. If I have to physically hunt down NPC's, Party Members, Locations etc. with no quick guide as to where these things might be...It seems like that would be frustrating.

 

I think the point of the mini-map is not so much to show me where I am, as it is to show where things important to me at the moment are in relation to me. I don't have all the sensory input with an MMOG that I would in Real Life. I can't feel the air current,  use my internal compass, take in smells. or sense temperature differences. Being cut off from a lot of my senses in a game, I need to have most most powerful sense as a human (Sight) played on more heavily to make up for that.

 

For me at least, a well designed mini-map is indispensable for gaining a good depth of involvement. Once I learn what things on it mean and am a little practiced with it, glancing it become second nature and an unconscious act...and I simply know where I am, where things I need to know about are, and where I am going, almost automatically. And, to a level of potency that is within reason for a character that would live in supposed world.

 

Heck in real life I use my cell phones navigator a lot. and I look at a map at least a few times a day. I used to be an avid hiker with friends. We always had at least two trail/topographical maps between us. We all understood the 3 north's and how to reconcile map north with magnetic north. we all had compasses and if they became damaged. we all knew other ways of finding our bearings. We would have walkie talkies and check in (or at the very least a whistles). We would look for and landmarks and make visual markers. We would wear bright reflective pieces of clothing to identify each other from a distance. we had signal mirrors as well...

 

So, to me there is nothing a mini-map does in a game that does not have a realistic answer to it rl, that any sensible person would go adventuring.

 

Insta-Travel:

For me it all depends on the world I am taking part in. I think a good part of what can make a game feel either rushed or dragged out are the choices the developers make about transit. The way you are able to get around in a game can make or break it in truth.

 

My opinion in general, is that the larger a world is the more options it should have for fast transit.

A small world should probably have a return ability and maybe a few general location save spots. But, mainly things that allow for escaping imminent death or returning to where you left off easily enough after a death. A larger world should probably have a lot more to it in the way of fast travel capability. Simply because it can get tedious otherwise.

 

Another factor to consider is how adaptive a world is. If world is static and repetitive then it stands to reason that it probably is not worth revisiting a lot of it's environs. Once is enough as part of the challenge in getting to the point. but if you have shifting terrain overtime, renewable resources through out, random mobs or treasure. then making it too easy to simply skip over vast distances can defeat the purpose of having a more dynamic world.

 

I don't think that I could say with any confidence that any style of modern MMOG, that I have seen would be better off without insta-travel completely. But, I can say I have seen plenty that would likely be better off with a lot less of it.

"Quality is not an act, it is a habit."
- Aristotle.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/03/13 3:41:53 AM#113
Originally posted by iixviiiix

Let just discuss about your point slow travel are waste of player's time.

It depend what kind of game.

If it a adventure game then it not waste , it part of gameplay, where you need to go around and discover the world. 

It not like every MMORPGs out here and those will be make are same dungeon crawl like WOW (most famous example)

So we can't just call it waste of time (for all game) , it depend what game we put it in.

If a game where player's goals are instance dungeons play , then we shouldn't take away instant travel because instant travel are needed and slow travel aren't part of it dungeon crawl play.

 Op only said it interested idea and like to see if it could have a good use , not like he said WOW or D3 ( lol i use it again as example) need slow travel . 

PS:Most post just argument about people's personal like , it wasn't bad because it show how about market think about this idea , but i feel pointless to argu about people's like. 

When is travel an adventure? The first time, when new sights and experiences are encountered.

  • With fast-travel, you explore everywhere the first time.  The entire game is adventure!
  • With slow-travel, the thing added is repeat travel.  This increases the time spent not adventuring, and delays your next real adventure.
So we can still call it a waste of time in that context too.
 
OP can have whatever opinion he wants, but my posts are mainly centered around pointing out the lack of interest in that type of gameplay (and puzzling out the reasons behind that lack of interest.)
  TwoThreeFour

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2133

8/03/13 4:52:52 AM#114

The removal of any form of instant travel has a merit if it leads to the creation of interesting decisions.

 

An abstract example of how such interesting decisions can look:

Do I stay here at place A to gain X1 per hour with risk factor Y1 or do I risk Y2  traveling to place B to gain X2 per hour with risk factor Y3?

 

If the solution to that question is far from simple in such manner that it may many minutes to solve and so that you may need to solve it again another day, then yeah the "removal of instant travel"in connection with other game features has created interesting decisionmaking. 

  TwoThreeFour

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2133

8/03/13 4:56:55 AM#115

As for no minimap: it works well if the environment isn't full of copy+paste terrains. 

 

The minimap itself does not have to be removed, but it should remove the auto-position feature of such minimaps so that you are forced to identify where the fck you are rather than the game auto-identifying that for you. Like orientation in real life, in other words, would be nice.

  iixviiiix

Elite Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 294

8/03/13 5:57:31 AM#116
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by iixviiiix

When is travel an adventure? The first time, when new sights and experiences are encountered.

  • With fast-travel, you explore everywhere the first time.  The entire game is adventure!
  • With slow-travel, the thing added is repeat travel.  This increases the time spent not adventuring, and delays your next real adventure.
So we can still call it a waste of time in that context too.
 
OP can have whatever opinion he wants, but my posts are mainly centered around pointing out the lack of interest in that type of gameplay (and puzzling out the reasons behind that lack of interest.)

Then how about the case of MMO called Silkroad , slow travel play part of it.

I wasn't play (not my like) it but i do research about little (to decide i should play or not)

In this game , You role as merchant and take your good from city A to B to earn gold , it way to travel from A to B , you have face threats like monsters and players (pk) who going to kill you and rob your good , if it to dangerous to travel alone , you can hide people (player) to protect you in way from city A to B.

 

I don't think in this case slow travel are waste of time since it part of game play, what do you think ?

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/03/13 8:30:24 AM#117
Originally posted by iixviiiix

Then how about the case of MMO called Silkroad , slow travel play part of it.

I wasn't play (not my like) it but i do research about little (to decide i should play or not)

In this game , You role as merchant and take your good from city A to B to earn gold , it way to travel from A to B , you have face threats like monsters and players (pk) who going to kill you and rob your good , if it to dangerous to travel alone , you can hide people (player) to protect you in way from city A to B. 

I don't think in this case slow travel are waste of time since it part of game play, what do you think ?

Well decisions are gameplay, so as long as travel isn't a period of no decision-making, it's probably going to be just fine.

The exception being that if a game offers multiple types of gameplay and requires one form of gameplay which is way shallower than the rest, then that's going to really drag down the experience.

Like how in most MMORPGs travel involves the tiniest trickle of gameplay (avoiding mobs), but because that's so much shallower than the rest of the game it totally ruins the experience if you end up forced into traveling.

But if travel is where Silkroad's most interesting gameplay is found, then obviously that would be fine.

  Kaledren

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/24/11
Posts: 131

8/03/13 10:29:10 AM#118
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by iixviiiix

Let just discuss about your point slow travel are waste of player's time.

It depend what kind of game.

If it a adventure game then it not waste , it part of gameplay, where you need to go around and discover the world. 

It not like every MMORPGs out here and those will be make are same dungeon crawl like WOW (most famous example)

So we can't just call it waste of time (for all game) , it depend what game we put it in.

If a game where player's goals are instance dungeons play , then we shouldn't take away instant travel because instant travel are needed and slow travel aren't part of it dungeon crawl play.

 Op only said it interested idea and like to see if it could have a good use , not like he said WOW or D3 ( lol i use it again as example) need slow travel . 

PS:Most post just argument about people's personal like , it wasn't bad because it show how about market think about this idea , but i feel pointless to argu about people's like. 

When is travel an adventure? The first time, when new sights and experiences are encountered.

  • With fast-travel, you explore everywhere the first time.  The entire game is adventure!
  • With slow-travel, the thing added is repeat travel.  This increases the time spent not adventuring, and delays your next real adventure.
So we can still call it a waste of time in that context too.
 
OP can have whatever opinion he wants, but my posts are mainly centered around pointing out the lack of interest in that type of gameplay (and puzzling out the reasons behind that lack of interest.)

Lack of interest for you.

I understand where you are coming from with traveling somewhere once or twice that is new is fun and exciting. There after, it just becomes routine and not as fun as it's been seen before. However, I feel there can be things done and/or added to make it fun more often.

For instance...the announcement of EQ Next's destructable world. Sure, it regenerates after a bit, but still provides the possibility to come across different settings at times when traveling a route often used. And that it has multiple levels to discover. Meaning destroy the surface to uncover a sub surface cavern, etc.

How about having free roam mobs. Where they aren't restricted to certain areas, but can roam at will...allowing for different mobs in different areas...and maybe of even different level or skill ranges.

Random encounters that have a multitude of areas they can happen instead of the same one or two areas....like bandits trying to rob you on a well traveled road, packs of wolves attacking from the woods, possibly a goblin or orc assault, etc, etc.

 

Even though I do use insta travel at times, I STILL travel the worlds I play in more on foot or via mount....and the same areas. Sure, most of the time it's the same ole stuff...doesn't bore me though. I guess knowing I am getting closer to my intended destination is the fun. That, and the possibility of encountering a player in trouble to help, or just help them because I am in the area makes it intriguing to me.

 

Anyways, not all players think traveling the same roads is boring and uneeded. it's what makes it a world and not a lobby game after all. Even in the real world people often travel by bike, foot, or car because they enjoy it and their chosen mode of travel...even traveling the same roads they've traveled countless times before. Not everyone can, nor has the means to travel via private jet.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17870

8/03/13 1:36:47 PM#119
Originally posted by Kaledren

Random encounters that have a multitude of areas they can happen instead of the same one or two areas....like bandits trying to rob you on a well traveled road, packs of wolves attacking from the woods, possibly a goblin or orc assault, etc, etc.

 

You don't need slow travel to have those. Just randomly interrupt instant travel, and drop the player into a random encounter. You get the fun of the random encounter without the tedium of walking around the same route again and again.

The fun part is not the travel, but the encounter .... so just jump to the fun.

 

  Isane

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/06
Posts: 2691

"Some do , Some don''t , Others just cry"

Jean Sali

8/03/13 1:43:00 PM#120
Originally posted by YoungCaesar
Who would like an MMORPG with these characteristics? It would help tons with immersion and making it a real world, an unnescesary hassle for others... No ingame map with a marker for your toon so you can actually get lost, altho you would get a compass or something and a regular map

When games were games , and not just insta win . You had to orientate yourself , and explore... What is amusing is that games these days have been dumbed down to the point where their is no game play left. and yes game play is not just stabbing or shooting it's commuinicating / crafting / traveling /combat / developing charachters ....

A key to most game worlds is that people get a chance of immersion, I am all for real gameplay to return and that includes trading with players in game so no auction houses just player run shops.

I also remember when you used to be able to die traveling town to town because their were always higher level mobs that wandered.

All for the player having to think and actually play the games ....

 

 

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