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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » What's people's problem with instances.

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279 posts found
  arieste

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3301

7/31/13 11:07:30 AM#221
Originally posted by Rydeson 
I saw your 20 seat bad example.. and with today's technology.. IF 40 people show up, the restaurant doubles in size automatically.. so now what?  

 

That is a perfectly viable alternative to instancing, I agree.    I've just never seen it used.

 

As far as your quetsion "of how many is too many", that depends on what you're designing.  I am not a game designer, but i am sure that if were designing a shared dungeon, i would take into consideration - how does this dungeon play if there are 10 people in it, how does it play with 20, 30, 50, 100.  At some point, i would figure out "you know, with over 70 people, it will no longer provide all 70 players with a fun experience, so i need to do something".

 

And like you said, if there is technology that automatically increases the size of an open-world dungeon with the number of players in it, that's awesome.  It's viable solution.  I'm sure it has its drawbacks as well, but it solves the base problem of over-crowding.  

 

That was a good response with a good alternative solution.  

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  DAS1337

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

7/31/13 11:08:17 AM#222
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by DAS1337
 

Sandboxes are supposed to reward you for your hard work and patience.  The harder you work, the greater the reward.  Themeparks are about instant gratification.  So if you've only played themeparks, or you've grown up where WoW was your first MMO, you may not understand the concept of 'immersion'.  Or you simply may not care about it, I have a friend that can really care less, so I get it.  I personally don't feel the same way, but I get it.  Then again, my first MMO was Ultima Online.  Followed by EQ and DAOC.

If the age in your profile is true, I was playing MMORPGs when you were still a kid and I was an adult since a long time.

Just to say - don't argue based on assumptions about other people - stick to facts.

Thanks.

I just dropped my rose colored glasses long ago. I remember those MMORPG pioneers with nostalgia, yes, but I'm also aware of some of the most awful mechanics they had, including camping a spawn for ages just to see it stolen by someone who just arrived at the spot, reaping you not only of the reward, which is secondary, but also ruining the fight you were looking forward to.

+1 for not being able to read and and other +1 for trying to tell us you are superior because you were playing tabletop RPG's and MUD's before MMO's became popular.

 

Notice, in your highlighted section up there, that I used the word MAY.  As in, because you didn't play back when games were more about living, breathing worlds and community, you MAY!! not understand what immersion really is.  It's a word used when using an absolute, like ALWAYS, is not appropriate.  There's your English lesson. 

 

I'm pretty sure I said this, but my first MMO was Ultima Online.  I've been playing RPG's for fifteen years.  That's far more than the majority of the gaming population.  UO was the first MMO to make it 'mainstream', and it is often considered the mother of all MMO's.  Regardless, you missed the whole point of the post and focused on how to make it about you, and how to make other people think you're special because you have a little more experience.

 

Congrats dude, you're awesome!  The whole point is that because you have more experience, supposedly, you should understand the concept of immersion so much more than someone who started off playing MMO's with WoW, or even something much more recent.  I shouldn't have to point things out like that, but apparently you are an exception.

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3132

7/31/13 11:08:58 AM#223
Furthermore .... If you are in a raid instance set for 10/20........ What do you do is 15 people want to raid that night? or better yet, 30 or even 40..  Who gets to tell some to GO HOME, the raid is full...... That doesn't sound very social.. and as for the people saying they hate to "wait".. Well every raid instance game I've seen uses LOCKOUTS.. so if you are not in the first team, you WAIT another week to get a chance.... hmmmmmmm POT meet KETTLE
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10376

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

7/31/13 11:09:52 AM#224


Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Rydeson It is very easy..    INSTANCING removes a large chunk of the social value of the game..       I can not begin to count how many new friends I met in gaming because we were not instanced..  We all know that in the original EQ, you were limited to 6 person groups.. Obviously this means we have choices to make who all is in that group..  There were times our group did not have an enchanter, or anyone that did CC, other then me because I was a druid, so I did the "park and root" trick...  At the same time the group next to us that did have an Enchanter lacked a class we had..  So many times we shared buffs and favors between groups in the same dungeon..  It was VERY VERY rare that people encroached and ninja anyone.. First the GM's in the game would not tolerate that conduct..      A number of times I remember doing favors for a group such as porting, and they would do favors for us in return.. THIS can NOT happen if you instance every bloody thing in the game..  As much as people learn to work together in a group, groups in turn learn to work together in the zone..  YES, I acknowledge that some fixed loot drops were camped and this caused some issues, but you don't fix it by breaking something else..  In today technology and coding, ALL those problems the pro-instanced players are crying about can be resolved without the need of ONE instance..  Instancing is an outdated anti-social mechanic and should be abolished.. :)  IMO
If instancing destroyed social interactions, nobody would meet anybody in WoW, Rift or The Secret World. Especially The Secret World. Yet people meet and greet all the time. Very large guilds form because people meet and greet out in the world, or in instances. It's just what people do. Therefore Instancing can't be a destroyer of social interaction in MMORPGs. Instancing doesn't limit players' ability to learn to work together in a group either. That's mostly what the instances are for in WoW, working together in a group. If instancing limited or stopped players from working together in groups, nobody would be able to complete any of the Dungeons or Raids in WoW, Rift or The Secret World. Therefore Instancing can't be a destroyer of group interaction in MMORPGs.  
Thou should do a better job at reading.. Please reread the RED text again.. I did not say instancing keeps people from not working together in a group.. but GROUPS  need to learn to work together in a zone.....  Tell me how group 1 and group 2 and group 3 are going to interact with each other if they are ALL STUCK in an instance..  Do you understand now?
To restate what I said, with corrections: Instancing can't be a destroyer of social interaction as you stated, because it's not happening. People are indeed interacting, and clumping together in social groups, just like they always have. You've stated this, but not backed it up. (Here's the correction, I do need to pay more attention to what I'm reading lately) Why do groups need to learn to work together in zones? What ultimate goal would it move players towards? How is that different from people learning to work together in five man groups, and then working together in ten man or twenty five man groups in instances? I would also add that groups working together still happens on OW PvP servers and games. Even in WoW, I've participated in large scale open world PvP where my group worked with other groups to fight against several groups of people in another faction.  
Just give it up.. This is a losing argument for you..  Splitting groups up into multiple copy instances is NOT social at all..  Groups are unable to communicate, and worth together because of the instance restrictions..  Obviously you have never played a game where dozens of players are in ONE zone, grouped up all over the map, some soloing, many in groups when a boss spawns and the zone UNITES to defeat this mob...... GW2 and Rift both have done great efforts in giving that to the people.. If you are stuck in an instance, you miss OUT.. 



You haven't explained why the different groups would need to communicate. Yes, obviously they can't, but why do they need to? If a group is in an instance, and they can't communicate with another group someplace else, what are they missing out on besides the communication?

Funny you should mention Rift as a game I'm not familiar with.

If a player wants to participate in instanced content, and they aren't participating in open world content, then they aren't missing out. They are expressing a preference.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Grimlock426

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/12
Posts: 160

Me not nice Dino! Me bash brains!

7/31/13 11:14:54 AM#225
Originally posted by DAS1337
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by DAS1337
 

Sandboxes are supposed to reward you for your hard work and patience.  The harder you work, the greater the reward.  Themeparks are about instant gratification.  So if you've only played themeparks, or you've grown up where WoW was your first MMO, you may not understand the concept of 'immersion'.  Or you simply may not care about it, I have a friend that can really care less, so I get it.  I personally don't feel the same way, but I get it.  Then again, my first MMO was Ultima Online.  Followed by EQ and DAOC.

If the age in your profile is true, I was playing MMORPGs when you were still a kid and I was an adult since a long time.

Just to say - don't argue based on assumptions about other people - stick to facts.

Thanks.

I just dropped my rose colored glasses long ago. I remember those MMORPG pioneers with nostalgia, yes, but I'm also aware of some of the most awful mechanics they had, including camping a spawn for ages just to see it stolen by someone who just arrived at the spot, reaping you not only of the reward, which is secondary, but also ruining the fight you were looking forward to.

+1 for not being able to read and and other +1 for trying to tell us you are superior because you were playing tabletop RPG's and MUD's before MMO's became popular.

 

Notice, in your highlighted section up there, that I used the word MAY.  As in, because you didn't play back when games were more about living, breathing worlds and community, you MAY!! not understand what immersion really is.  It's a word used when using an absolute, like ALWAYS, is not appropriate.  There's your English lesson. 

 

I'm pretty sure I said this, but my first MMO was Ultima Online.  I've been playing RPG's for fifteen years.  That's far more than the majority of the gaming population.  UO was the first MMO to make it 'mainstream', and it is often considered the mother of all MMO's.  Regardless, you missed the whole point of the post and focused on how to make it about you, and how to make other people think you're special because you have a little more experience.

 

Congrats dude, you're awesome!  The whole point is that because you have more experience, supposedly, you should understand the concept of immersion so much more than someone who started off playing MMO's with WoW, or even something much more recent.  I shouldn't have to point things out like that, but apparently you are an exception.

I take exception to your denegration of Vanilla WoW and use it as a negative for people who began MMO's with WoW.  The WoW of today is  a shell of it's former glory and so if you mean someone who's first MMO is Mists of Pandaria WoW, then I could maybe go with you. 

However, for those of us who began MMOs with Vanilla WoW (although I did dabble a bit in UO and City of Heroes first) I can tell you that it felt VERY immersive.  Your premise is also completely false that themeparks reward instant gratification.  That may be the trend now, but that was not always the case.  Again, pointing back to Vanilla WoW, there was nothing instant about getting your first epic mount for example.  It was not uncommon for people to be at max level for months before they acquired enough gold to purchase an epic mount.  Epic items were truly epic.  You didn't get epic items by saving up valor points or running 5-man content.  Nope, if you wanted epics you raided and not 10-man raids, but 40man. 

Vanilla WoW may have been easier then say EQ, but there was very little instant gratification in it either.  You had to work for what you got!

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3132

7/31/13 11:20:03 AM#226
Originally posted by lizardbones

 

You haven't explained why the different groups would need to communicate. Yes, obviously they can't, but why do they need to? If a group is in an instance, and they can't communicate with another group someplace else, what are they missing out on besides the communication?

Funny you should mention Rift as a game I'm not familiar with.

If a player wants to participate in instanced content, and they aren't participating in open world content, then they aren't missing out. They are expressing a preference.

 

      Well there you go.. I think that last sentence says it all.. (Freudian slip).. Did it ever concern you that the other players in your instance group MIGHT want the opportunity to take down the rare big bad boss?  NO.. Because the game is all about YOU..I think you look at today's games as private single player games with you in control..  Would you even consider a game that has NO INSTANCING at all?   

  xerxax

Novice Member

Joined: 4/09/13
Posts: 5

7/31/13 11:23:47 AM#227

For what it's worth, the two games I play are Eve and DDO, which I like for different reasons.   I hate the PvE in Eve, but love its player-based economy and PvP.  I appreciate the PVE in DDO and also the instancing as a way to cooperate with other players in a way that I don't have to worry about other people coming along and disrupting whatever challenge we've decided to take on.  I don't PvP at all in DDO and I'd love it if DDO's open world was more of a sandbox.  

Personally, I'm keeping an eye on EQNext and hoping that it has the complexity of character creation of DDO, the aforementioned instancing, combined with a sandbox open world and player-based economy.  If that's what it turns out to be, count me in.

 

  arieste

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3301

7/31/13 11:24:32 AM#228
Originally posted by Rydeson
Furthermore .... If you are in a raid instance set for 10/20........ What do you do is 15 people want to raid that night? or better yet, 30 or even 40..  Who gets to tell some to GO HOME, the raid is full...... That doesn't sound very social.. and as for the people saying they hate to "wait".. Well every raid instance game I've seen uses LOCKOUTS.. so if you are not in the first team, you WAIT another week to get a chance.... hmmmmmmm POT meet KETTLE

I am not sure if that was aimed at me, since I was talking mainly about shared dungeons (at least in the more recent posts).

 

That being said, as i've been an officer and former leader of a casual raid guild in EQ2, i am well-positioned to answer your question.    Majority of raids in EQ2 are set for 24 players.   Any given raid day (my guild raids twice a week), we have between 18 and 26 people that show up.   If we get 26 (which is rare, since we work hard - "socially" - to keep our roster at around 30), 2 people will sit. Who sits depends on who has volunteered,  on what classes are required for any given encounter and (less so) on a person's rank in the guild.  The people that sit are still eligible for loot and share of the money earned by the raid.  Eventually we'll switch around who sits so that everyone gets to play.    Having too many is quite rare for us.    If we have too few, we pick the most difficult content that we can do with that amount of people.  There are many different raids in EQ2 and even though they are designed for a maximum of 24, they can be done with anything from a few people to the max of 24.  

 

It's very much like being on a baseball team (i play on two baseball teams, so the analogy always comes to mind).  Both my teams have 14 players.  For any given game, 8 to 12 show up.  If 8 show up, we play shorthanded or get subs.  If 12 show up, people take turns sitting.  But you can't play baseball with more than 9 on the field, the rules don't allow it.  It's pretty much identical.  

 

As far as lockouts, EQ2's raid zones are "persistent", so once you open one up, you can go in and our with different people for 5-10 days.  There are lockouts, which are 3-5 days.  For most "casual" guilds like mine, there are more than enough zones that you don't need to worry about not having something to do.  it would take more time to do every single raid than most guilds dedicate to raiding in a week.  (There are super hardcore guilds that can either dedidcate more time or that are just very awesome and get it all done super-quick, but i'm talking about casual/average)

 

As far as it being social - it is EXTREMELY social.  Having been in the guilds that i've been over the past 8 years in EQ2 is the main reason i've stayed with EQ2 even though many games with better individual gameplay elements have emerged.  

 

So yeah.. it's a bit of a tangent, but hopefully i answered your questions.

 

p.s  This is in no way different from open world raids, which are also limited to 24 people.  So if a contested open-world mob spawns for us, it's handled the same way.

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

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  Shadowguy64

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/13
Posts: 880

7/31/13 11:24:43 AM#229
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by lizardbones

 

You haven't explained why the different groups would need to communicate. Yes, obviously they can't, but why do they need to? If a group is in an instance, and they can't communicate with another group someplace else, what are they missing out on besides the communication?

Funny you should mention Rift as a game I'm not familiar with.

If a player wants to participate in instanced content, and they aren't participating in open world content, then they aren't missing out. They are expressing a preference.

 

      Well there you go.. I think that last sentence says it all.. (Freudian slip).. Did it ever concern you that the other players in your instance group MIGHT want the opportunity to take down the rare big bad boss?  NO.. Because the game is all about YOU..I think you look at today's games as private single player games with you in control..  Would you even consider a game that has NO INSTANCING at all?   

 

I'm sure they all want to take down the rare big boss. They are 77th in line...

  xAPOCx

Elite Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 812

7/31/13 11:25:15 AM#230
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

A scenario which happens quite often in completely open zone MMOs with "camping".

You arrive with your guild at some boss spawn deep in a dungeon first. You guys setup camp, and start the wait.

4 hours 50 minutes later, some other guild arrives. You start to discuss with them about "first come, first served", but the guys don't care, they say "who kills gets the loot".

5 hours later, the boss spawns, the douchebag guild tags him first, does the most damage, and gets the rewards, while your complete guild just wasted 5 hours for nothing, not even a good fight.

Anyone pretending it's fun can't be anything else than masochistic.

Dungeons can be open, but the major bosses must be instanced.

Bad game design is bad game design. Instancing or otherwise. 

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

7/31/13 11:28:18 AM#231
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

It's called either "nostalgia" or "masochism". Some people seem to think camping a spawn for 12+ hours just to see a late coming guild "ninja" it and you ending with nothing at all is good mechanics.

Some people view all things mmo as "only the way my first love did it". (Hopefully they don't make themselves miserable doing the same with women).

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  quseio

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/18/07
Posts: 220

7/31/13 11:28:20 AM#232

 I would rather not have housing personally, if it is instanced, just give me a bigger bank.  It feels like a secret closet to me, not a house when it is instanced.  I say this personally, but I know people do like it too, but that is my feelings on it.  It being instanced ruins it being my characters house, and it is no better than a bank in my mind at that point.

 

eq1 didit good imo  yes the neighborhoods where instanced copies  but anyone could  come into that instance,  houseing isnt good if anyone can build houses anywhere i dont want to see some shack in the middle of blackburrow

 

as ive said before as long as they go light on the instanceing and dont use it for  everything its ok, just use it for important access quests imo

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16942

7/31/13 11:29:19 AM#233
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

It's called either "nostalgia" or "masochism". Some people seem to think camping a spawn for 12+ hours just to see a late coming guild "ninja" it and you ending with nothing at all is good mechanics.

Some people view all things mmo as "only the way my first love did it". (Hopefully they don't make themselves miserable doing the same with women).

I'm sure they do.

  SirBalin

Warmonger

Joined: 11/22/06
Posts: 1009

7/31/13 11:30:05 AM#234
Originally posted by Waterlily

I really don't get this hate towards instances. MMORPG.com now has an article "What we don't want in EQnext: Instances".

I don't know who this "we" is. People who never played EQ?

The best expansions in Everquest were the heavily instanced ones.

LDON-OOW (proving grounds trials+pizza instances)-DoN-DoD (amazing expansion, also the best looking one imo)

Let alone all the raid instances, which were actually a huge improvement over the mob ganking and drama caused on the server.

GoD group instances, one of the most fun and rewarding content you could find. Ask anyone what the most fun group content was and many will say LDON, DoD, MPG trials and the freeport Badge Arena battle. All instanced.

I have no idea why some people don't want instances. If done right, they are great.

The OWPVP community is where the love lost for instances mostly comes from.  More times than not a game with instances puts so much emphasis on them, that there is no need to be in the open world...which kills the owpvp.  Look at Tera for example...they've put so much into their instances, that the open world is dead other than safezones.

Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"

  vmoped

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 1722

7/31/13 11:31:24 AM#235

In my opinion, instances take away from the open world feel of games.  Every mmo I play that adds more and more instance content results in less and less people actually playing in the open world.  Look at WoW now:  The entire over world is just a large lobby for group finder.  If I wanted a lobby game I would go buy a single player game with multiplayer function and skip the cash shops and sub fees.

Cheers!

MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S

  Grimlock426

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/12
Posts: 160

Me not nice Dino! Me bash brains!

7/31/13 11:31:56 AM#236

Of course there is nothing wrong with instancing, as long as it's balanced.  People tend to express things as either black or white, when balance is the key.

Besides, it's not instancing that detroyed communities anyway, it's cross-server and Looking for group tools that did that.  When it's just your one server and the only way to get a group is to actually...gasp..talk to people, it's plenty social.  You found a group, you all traveled to the instance (no instant porting) and you went in.  Because it was all one server, people were better behaved because you could destroy your reputation on a server by being an Ass-hat. 

Instanced dungeons were plenty social. 

The key is balance.  There is nothing wrong with providing people with instances where they can group with their buddies and tackle content without worrying about being griefed or ganked.  There should also be plenty of open-world dungeons and random spawning bosses as well.

  NavinJohnson

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/13
Posts: 59

7/31/13 11:32:13 AM#237
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

It's called either "nostalgia" or "masochism". Some people seem to think camping a spawn for 12+ hours just to see a late coming guild "ninja" it and you ending with nothing at all is good mechanics.

Some people view all things mmo as "only the way my first love did it". (Hopefully they don't make themselves miserable doing the same with women).

I'm sure they do.

People cry out for change because they are bored.........change it back to the way it was!

 

:)

 

 

  Shadowguy64

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/13
Posts: 880

7/31/13 11:32:19 AM#238
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

It's called either "nostalgia" or "masochism". Some people seem to think camping a spawn for 12+ hours just to see a late coming guild "ninja" it and you ending with nothing at all is good mechanics.

Some people view all things mmo as "only the way my first love did it". (Hopefully they don't make themselves miserable doing the same with women).

I'm sure they do.

 

Yep, I leave the money on the table after each night...

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

7/31/13 11:33:25 AM#239
Originally posted by SirBalin

The OWPVP community is where the love lost for instances mostly comes from.  More times than not a game with instances puts so much emphasis on them, that there is no need to be in the open world...which kills the owpvp.  Look at Tera for example...they've put so much into their instances, that the open world is dead other than safezones.

But since most implementations of OWPVP suck anyway (the Holy Grail of PVP, always searched for but never found), is all of the hate inspired by a rainbow chase?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10376

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

7/31/13 11:36:32 AM#240


Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by lizardbones   You haven't explained why the different groups would need to communicate. Yes, obviously they can't, but why do they need to? If a group is in an instance, and they can't communicate with another group someplace else, what are they missing out on besides the communication? Funny you should mention Rift as a game I'm not familiar with. If a player wants to participate in instanced content, and they aren't participating in open world content, then they aren't missing out. They are expressing a preference.  
      Well there you go.. I think that last sentence says it all.. (Freudian slip).. Did it ever concern you that the other players in your instance group MIGHT want the opportunity to take down the rare big bad boss?  NO.. Because the game is all about YOU..I think you look at today's games as private single player games with you in control..  Would you even consider a game that has NO INSTANCING at all?   



If I was in an instance with other people, my assumption would be they were there because they wanted to be there, not because I somehow mind controlled them into being there.

I've played and enjoyed games that don't have any instancing. I don't particularly like instances, and when I do go, it's because my friends want to go, not because I want to be in an instance. I am, in fact, one of the people who would rather kill bosses out in the open world on pvp servers rather than spend time in instances.

I'm not "Pro Instance", your arguments are just bad.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

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