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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Bring Back Crowd Control

6 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 » Search
101 posts found
  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2306

7/27/13 7:11:24 PM#21
Originally posted by Cirin

There are plenty of easy/great ways of making CC meaningful but also making them not a complete game-winning asset in PvP/PvE/PK/whatever.

 

First and foremost just make it so that you take x% less damage from any attack while you are cc'd.  Stunlocked?  Who cares they can't burn through your hp in that time, however they can kill your friends in that time.  Mez'd...oh darn at least the mage can't mez you then instagib you with a huge nuke since it'll only do partial damage.

 

This ONE change fixes all the balance implications for pvp/pve etc..

Having your team mate get nuked while you sit there with stars over your head is pretty much just as bad as taking full damage while CC'd. Because guess who's getting nuked when the CC wears off and you don't have team mate support?

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

7/27/13 7:14:18 PM#22
Originally posted by jusomdude
Originally posted by Cirin

There are plenty of easy/great ways of making CC meaningful but also making them not a complete game-winning asset in PvP/PvE/PK/whatever.

 

First and foremost just make it so that you take x% less damage from any attack while you are cc'd.  Stunlocked?  Who cares they can't burn through your hp in that time, however they can kill your friends in that time.  Mez'd...oh darn at least the mage can't mez you then instagib you with a huge nuke since it'll only do partial damage.

 

This ONE change fixes all the balance implications for pvp/pve etc..

Having your team mate get nuked while you sit there with stars over your head is pretty much just as bad as taking full damage while CC'd. Because guess who's getting nuked when the CC wears off and you don't have team mate support?

Cool?

 

CC is important...EQN won't be a PvP-centric game so really...who cares.

Without meaningful CC then fights are always either pure gimmick mechanics based OR just plain tank and spank.  We've all been there and done that.

 

Even if PvP were a mainstay of EQN, if there are hard cc's then there should be cc break abilities.  If not then you should be in a group, just like in DAoC....solos get walked all over or just picked off by stealthers....deal with it?

 

 

Let me guess....yet another MMO player that doesn't want to play with other people?  There are plenty of single player RPGs for ya...enjoy!

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Alders

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1654

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

7/27/13 7:22:47 PM#23

If we're talking about PVE, then hell yes bring back proper CC.

If we're talking about PVP, then CC needs a complete overhaul.  Long duration and short duration are bad but so is not having consequences for it.

 

I loved the way CC worked in FFXI as it had the highest level of threat/hate generation in the game.  A few timely placed sleeps or roots would save your entire group from wipes.  Get carried away and spam your CC and you'd be the first to die no matter what.  It was a balancing act that required players to know the limits and i loved it.

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2306

7/27/13 7:25:01 PM#24
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by jusomdude
Originally posted by Cirin

There are plenty of easy/great ways of making CC meaningful but also making them not a complete game-winning asset in PvP/PvE/PK/whatever.

 

First and foremost just make it so that you take x% less damage from any attack while you are cc'd.  Stunlocked?  Who cares they can't burn through your hp in that time, however they can kill your friends in that time.  Mez'd...oh darn at least the mage can't mez you then instagib you with a huge nuke since it'll only do partial damage.

 

This ONE change fixes all the balance implications for pvp/pve etc..

Having your team mate get nuked while you sit there with stars over your head is pretty much just as bad as taking full damage while CC'd. Because guess who's getting nuked when the CC wears off and you don't have team mate support?

Cool?

 

CC is important...EQN won't be a PvP-centric game so really...who cares.

Without meaningful CC then fights are always either pure gimmick mechanics based OR just plain tank and spank.  We've all been there and done that.

 

Even if PvP were a mainstay of EQN, if there are hard cc's then there should be cc break abilities.  If not then you should be in a group, just like in DAoC....solos get walked all over or just picked off by stealthers....deal with it?

 

 

Let me guess....yet another MMO player that doesn't want to play with other people?  There are plenty of single player RPGs for ya...enjoy!

Why don't you try responding in context of the post I quoted instead of just pulling new crap outta thin air. Your solution isn't a solution at all.

I don't care about CC in PvE. I don't know where you came up with this solo crap either.

  SirBalin

Warmonger

Joined: 11/22/06
Posts: 1017

7/27/13 7:26:09 PM#25
Originally posted by Pigglesworth

I would like to see the game bring back the NEED for crowd control. EQ2 at release made great use of stuns, roots, fear, etc. But, after a couple expansion, everyone just ends up using area effect spells on everything.

Crowd control is great for breaking up a group of mobs, such as allowing you to root the fighter in a group while you whack on the mages. Or fearing a healer in a group, allowing you to pound on the others. Stuns, interrupts, all the fun stuff.

They used to be the foundation of several support classes, but those skills really aren't necessary anymore.

Please bring them back.

Okay okay...please say you are kidding?  Well...let me rephrase...crown control is okay if it's short incriments.  If CC means you get stun locked while someone beats the piss out of you...the game no longer takes skill.  If you mean a snare, or something like a slow...that i'm okay with.

Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

7/27/13 7:28:43 PM#26
Originally posted by jusomdude
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by jusomdude
Originally posted by Cirin

There are plenty of easy/great ways of making CC meaningful but also making them not a complete game-winning asset in PvP/PvE/PK/whatever.

 

First and foremost just make it so that you take x% less damage from any attack while you are cc'd.  Stunlocked?  Who cares they can't burn through your hp in that time, however they can kill your friends in that time.  Mez'd...oh darn at least the mage can't mez you then instagib you with a huge nuke since it'll only do partial damage.

 

This ONE change fixes all the balance implications for pvp/pve etc..

Having your team mate get nuked while you sit there with stars over your head is pretty much just as bad as taking full damage while CC'd. Because guess who's getting nuked when the CC wears off and you don't have team mate support?

Cool?

 

CC is important...EQN won't be a PvP-centric game so really...who cares.

Without meaningful CC then fights are always either pure gimmick mechanics based OR just plain tank and spank.  We've all been there and done that.

 

Even if PvP were a mainstay of EQN, if there are hard cc's then there should be cc break abilities.  If not then you should be in a group, just like in DAoC....solos get walked all over or just picked off by stealthers....deal with it?

 

 

Let me guess....yet another MMO player that doesn't want to play with other people?  There are plenty of single player RPGs for ya...enjoy!

Why don't you try responding in context of the post I quoted instead of just pulling new crap outta thin air. Your solution isn't a solution at all.

I don't care about CC in PvE. I don't know where you came up with this solo crap either.

And this folks...is irony.

 

I'll gladly refute any point you make, when it happens.  As far as this "solo crap', well then in your instance the rest of your group should be doing their job, whether it's cleansing, healing, fighting, etc..  If you still lose then it would sound like you were equally beaten in a fight, the correct phrase would be "gg" at that(this) point.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  User Deleted
7/27/13 7:33:42 PM#27
Can't imagine they would throw away the enchanter class, i'm sure it will be in.
  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2306

7/27/13 7:36:22 PM#28

@cirin

My point is your less damage when cc'd doesn't work, and it still stands.

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

7/27/13 7:40:28 PM#29
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Bigmamajama
In before the GW2 freaks post to tell you having to rely on OTHER PEOPLE in an MMO is bad.

I bye a game to play and win, not to be CC'd and lose!

Since when does GW2 not have CC?

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  Theocritus

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

7/27/13 7:53:06 PM#30
My best moments in EQ came as an Enchanter locking down several mobs at a time......Two of the biggest things missing since classic EQ are good crowd control and a skilled puller who could seperate mobs.....Games need to get away from the "everyone is DPS" mentality and get back to role playing.
  Damage99

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 162

7/27/13 8:07:48 PM#31
Originally posted by Theocritus
My best moments in EQ came as an Enchanter locking down several mobs at a time......Two of the biggest things missing since classic EQ are good crowd control and a skilled puller who could seperate mobs.....Games need to get away from the "everyone is DPS" mentality and get back to role playing.

Someone who gets it!

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

7/27/13 8:35:43 PM#32
Originally posted by Damage99
Originally posted by Theocritus
My best moments in EQ came as an Enchanter locking down several mobs at a time......Two of the biggest things missing since classic EQ are good crowd control and a skilled puller who could seperate mobs.....Games need to get away from the "everyone is DPS" mentality and get back to role playing.

Someone who gets it!

Agreed!  Same goes for Bard in DAoC...really after DAoC CC died.  It used to be great to mez a whole group and then keep them locked down while healing and chain pulling endlessly.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

7/27/13 8:37:41 PM#33
Originally posted by jusomdude

@cirin

My point is your less damage when cc'd doesn't work, and it still stands.

Quite simply put...it does.  You never refuted my point at all.  You merely whined about how you would watch your friend die...cool story, no one cares.

 

To recap what I had ALREADY pointed out, since you obviously overlooked it.

MMO's are group-based games, so if you are in a group-based fight and are left mez'd indefinitely then your group was merely outplayed.  If your teammates didn't cleanse, heal, or kill the other group then (again), looks like you lost (again).

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Uproar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/19/04
Posts: 406

I was once Tailrot, Uproar, Bandage, Thus(tin) Hammered, Rock, and so many more. Aye gamerest.

7/27/13 8:43:26 PM#34
MEZ for the Win!  Assist the Enchanter!

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2306

7/27/13 8:48:58 PM#35

@cirin

LOL, ok, you "win", is your ego soothed now?

  Maquiame

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/07
Posts: 623

Power without perception is spiritually useless and of no true value

7/27/13 9:00:14 PM#36
Hell yes, I always thought that City of Heroes had the absolute best CC classes along with EQ, it'd be nice to see that again. Thank god its going to be in FFXIV:ARR.

Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6591

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

7/27/13 9:06:52 PM#37

FFXI has crowd control but what happens is in ANY game,if it gets too easy,the dev remove anything that is effective.

Personally i don't like the lazy approach of devs because we work days,months to improve our player only to see all of our effective abilities get resisted by Bosses.

What FFXI did on SOME Bosses was give them resistances over time,so the more you used a certain ability,the more they would become resistant to it.However no matter how much you try to make it realistic or a challenge,it still comes down to simple math numbers.

An example of crowd control but how devs make it meaningless.

Ok so imagine SOE advances their level of depth in combat design and copy the over time resistance idea.What happens is to make the fight challenging is right about the time your CC is totally resisted like about 25% of a Bosses HP's,they give the Boss it's more powerful counter abilities.SO what happens is the first 75% of the fight is meaningless,the real fight happens at the 25% mark and this is basically what happens in most challenging fights in MANY games.

You have to realize that if you can just stun or mez/sleep your way to a win,it is not challenging at all.Line up 5 stuns and have 2 Mez/sleepers ready so you can wait for the stun timers to reset and rinse repeat,not good challenging combat.

I am always thinking and it is really tough to go all out either way,it would be too easy or if you remove CC altogether the players have nothing fun,just boring tank and spank.like i said ,i hate when devs just make Bosses 100% immune that is cheap lazy design,so i guess the resistance over time is the best bet  ,but even that is not a great option,just one that works better.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

7/27/13 9:14:26 PM#38
Originally posted by Wizardry

FFXI has crowd control but what happens is in ANY game,if it gets too easy,the dev remove anything that is effective.

Personally i don't like the lazy approach of devs because we work days,months to improve our player only to see all of our effective abilities get resisted by Bosses.

What FFXI did on SOME Bosses was give them resistances over time,so the more you used a certain ability,the more they would become resistant to it.However no matter how much you try to make it realistic or a challenge,it still comes down to simple math numbers.

An example of crowd control but how devs make it meaningless.

Ok so imagine SOE advances their level of depth in combat design and copy the over time resistance idea.What happens is to make the fight challenging is right about the time your CC is totally resisted like about 25% of a Bosses HP's,they give the Boss it's more powerful counter abilities.SO what happens is the first 75% of the fight is meaningless,the real fight happens at the 25% mark and this is basically what happens in most challenging fights in MANY games.

You have to realize that if you can just stun or mez/sleep your way to a win,it is not challenging at all.Line up 5 stuns and have 2 Mez/sleepers ready so you can wait for the stun timers to reset and rinse repeat,not good challenging combat.

I am always thinking and it is really tough to go all out either way,it would be too easy or if you remove CC altogether the players have nothing fun,just boring tank and spank.like i said ,i hate when devs just make Bosses 100% immune that is cheap lazy design,so i guess the resistance over time is the best bet  ,but even that is not a great option,just one that works better.

 

Again....halved damage during stuns or even higher %age damage reduction during stuns would easily counter this.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Grailer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/06
Posts: 819

7/27/13 9:29:30 PM#39

For CC to be required you would need mobs that hit so hard that they cant all be tanked at once .

 

Just saying .

 

 

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6503

"I fight so you don't have to."

7/27/13 9:51:13 PM#40
For PvE yes, crowd control adds a lot to the game. But for PvP, no. There is no fun being the target of a CC and stand helpless as you, or your friends, are getting slaughtered.

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