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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » EQN = Fantasy based EVE

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62 posts found
  Krimzin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 523

7/26/13 11:23:42 AM#21

[quote][i]Originally posted by Betaguy[/i] [b][quote] [i]Originally posted by DocBrody[/i] [quote] [b][i]Originally posted by Ronin316[/i][/b] [b][b]I see alot of posts of people wanting EQN to be like a fantasy based EVE,[/b][/b] [b][b]Tell me what you think[/b][/b] [/quote] [b]yep this is what i hope for too, but I'm prepared for another crushed dream of awesome.[/b] [b] [/b] [b]at least CCP the king of sandbox is making World of Darkness, so if EQ Next is too carebeary, WoD will certainly be up my alley[/b][/quote]Everquest Next is def going to be carebear all the way. It is catering to the masses not a puny minority of hardcores.[/b][/quote]

 

Clearly you never played the original, if you did then you must have forgotten, it was in NO WAY carebear. I dont see them changing that much.

Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.


It's an Orange thing

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

7/26/13 11:40:01 AM#22
Originally posted by Krimzin

[quote][i]Originally posted by Betaguy[/i] [b][quote] [i]Originally posted by DocBrody[/i] [quote] [b][i]Originally posted by Ronin316[/i][/b] [b][b]I see alot of posts of people wanting EQN to be like a fantasy based EVE,[/b][/b] [b][b]Tell me what you think[/b][/b] [/quote] [b]yep this is what i hope for too, but I'm prepared for another crushed dream of awesome.[/b] [b] [/b] [b]at least CCP the king of sandbox is making World of Darkness, so if EQ Next is too carebeary, WoD will certainly be up my alley[/b][/quote]Everquest Next is def going to be carebear all the way. It is catering to the masses not a puny minority of hardcores.[/b][/quote]

 

Clearly you never played the original, if you did then you must have forgotten, it was in NO WAY carebear. I dont see them changing that much.

Actually yes it was....in every way it was carebear.  PvP was completely segregated to another server and the game was never balanced or even nodded towards PvP.  Expect the same from EQN.

 

And Krimz....you drive the Honda of "American Muscle".  RWD is dead move up to AWD and have some fun.  ;)

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Dullahan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 790

Death to Themepark.

7/26/13 11:56:38 AM#23
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by Krimzin

[quote][i]Originally posted by Betaguy[/i] [b][quote] [i]Originally posted by DocBrody[/i] [quote] [b][i]Originally posted by Ronin316[/i][/b] [b][b]I see alot of posts of people wanting EQN to be like a fantasy based EVE,[/b][/b] [b][b]Tell me what you think[/b][/b] [/quote] [b]yep this is what i hope for too, but I'm prepared for another crushed dream of awesome.[/b] [b] [/b] [b]at least CCP the king of sandbox is making World of Darkness, so if EQ Next is too carebeary, WoD will certainly be up my alley[/b][/quote]Everquest Next is def going to be carebear all the way. It is catering to the masses not a puny minority of hardcores.[/b][/quote]

 

Clearly you never played the original, if you did then you must have forgotten, it was in NO WAY carebear. I dont see them changing that much.

Actually yes it was....in every way it was carebear.  PvP was completely segregated to another server and the game was never balanced or even nodded towards PvP.  Expect the same from EQN.

 

And Krimz....you drive the Honda of "American Muscle".  RWD is dead move up to AWD and have some fun.  ;)

And clearly you didn't play on a pvp server.

From launch they balanced the most important things, and continued to balance certain abilities and the resist system over time.

Unless of course you mean by balanced that the role system should have been torn down in favor of making every class an equal offensive threat ala WoW.  In that case, no, it wasn't balanced.  Roles still played their part in PvP, even if it meant that didn't get a lot of kills.  Rangers tracked, enchanters buffed and dispelled, clerics buffed and healed, but no they weren't "balanced" in order to make them an offensive class.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO, ArcheAge and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
-
Awaiting The Repopulation, Camelot Unchained & Shroud of the Avatar.
-
Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  mos0811

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 173

7/26/13 12:13:17 PM#24
Originally posted by munx4555

Mainly Player controlled/run territories is somewhere I have thought mmos were heading ever since eq, sadly mmos have changed very little since they first appeared, and most devs seem directly terrified of trying to innovate.

Having player run nations, territories etcetc does not mean it has to be a pvp mmo, common misconception in my opinion, there are so many ways you could make it pve friendly, ill give 2 examples to start it off.

1: learn from games such as "the mighty quest for epic loot" allow territory rulers to setup theyr own "raid" dungeon based on the resources they are given by theyr overall faction. (Faction should be ruled by a player or a entire guild, while being open to politics and internal power struggles, while each "region" of theyr faction should be controlled by lords,dukes etc.)

the "king" would be able to decide which regions were "pvp" and which were "pve", with a maximum % of each to make sure each factions offer both.

2: A factions power would be based of resources, pve would be the best way to aquire these resources, pvers would basicly be the economical backbone of a faction.

 

Just because you have player run factions, dosnt mean pvp would be enabled in every region, if anything each factions should only be able to assign a few regions as open pvp.

 

Sadly it seems most devs dont see the potential of a world truely "ruled" by the players, for one you would need to spend alot less on voice actors, as you would need alot less quest npcs, factions reps etc, not to mention no mather how hard a dev works he can never compete with the amount of content a community can spit out, and while this would not allow players to directly create content, it would have the same effect as the world would keep changing, and stay intresting for a much longer period of time.

 

Like I said I am truely suprised mmo's havnt gotten to this point yet, the lack of innovation in the mmo genre is disapointing to say the least.

Somebody else gets it.  Give the tools once for the players to create and they can keep themselves busy for years.  Try and come up with more rides for the themepark and you can't turn out content fast enough.

My above comment works for either PvP or PvE, I personally like it when it's more slanted towards PvP.

Giving players tools, does not mean letting them create their own monsters, NPCs or AI for either; it doesn't mean letting the players completely change the landscape (that's a bit harder if it's a hand crafted world); and it doesn't mean just letting the players create their own physics, magic or rules for the game.  Developers need to give boundaries for players to work within, and tools to create conflict, to create guilds/alliances and territorial boundaries.  Given just a few things, and add in PvP, and a game can go off for years with basic tools.  Look at EvE, there have been no major changes to the game since Capitals ships were introduced (the game started with only up to BS I think).  What they have done is improved upon the tools the players have.

  mos0811

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 173

7/26/13 12:15:59 PM#25
Originally posted by NagelRitter
Only with a lot modifications. EVE makes sense for EVE but not for EverQuest.

This may not be the EQ that everyone grew up with.  EQ in the name may only be a reference to the lore, types of land masses we will see and overall fantasy feel.  The gameplay for EQN could be completely different and very much a fantasy based EvE; we just don't know.  If it is PvP centric then I could see myself playing it for years, if it's another PvE game (even a "sandbox PvE") then it will get stale for me.

  apocoluster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1305

\m/,

7/26/13 12:25:50 PM#26

I don't think it will be.  But I wouldn't be butt hurt if it was.  

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  Wakygreek

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/30/08
Posts: 1244

Reason is a necessity

7/26/13 12:30:58 PM#27
Please keep your Eve out of my EQN. If EQN takes the skill system from eve, I won't touch the game regardless of how awesome everything else is. Eve's skill system is a horribly designed piece of code.
  ice-vortex

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 921

7/26/13 12:58:27 PM#28
Originally posted by Wakygreek
Please keep your Eve out of my EQN. If EQN takes the skill system from eve, I won't touch the game regardless of how awesome everything else is. Eve's skill system is a horribly designed piece of code.

Smedley already said it won't be a pure skill system like EVE and we know it has classes because there will be the ability to switch classes.

  mos0811

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 173

7/26/13 1:17:19 PM#29
Originally posted by Wakygreek
Please keep your Eve out of my EQN. If EQN takes the skill system from eve, I won't touch the game regardless of how awesome everything else is. Eve's skill system is a horribly designed piece of code.

Horribly designed piece of code - hmm I think they have come a long way in implementing a time based system making it easier for players.  If it's time progression you don't like, that's fine, but don't blame the code.  The code I think is great.

EvE's system isn't even a a true skill system like that found in DF.  EvE has a system where time matters.  Since 1 player could not have all the skills in the game, many people run multiple accounts; I have 3 myself, my pvp toon, my indy toon and a PI toon.  Because you can only have 1 toon training per account, it requires 3 accounts.   Not only is the time system smart from a gameplay perspective, it creates a demand for more accounts, giving CCP more money.

EvE takes patience to play, which is why it is so popular with older gamers.  It is the one game out there with a huge learning curve, and real loss when your ship goes boom (even in PvE, losing a ship on a mission hurts the isk).  EvE is the best idea out there that counters the gimme now crowd.  Those are at least concepts that EQN could take away from EvE.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

7/26/13 1:22:01 PM#30
Originally posted by Dullahan
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by Krimzin

[quote][i]Originally posted by Betaguy[/i] [b][quote] [i]Originally posted by DocBrody[/i] [quote] [b][i]Originally posted by Ronin316[/i][/b] [b][b]I see alot of posts of people wanting EQN to be like a fantasy based EVE,[/b][/b] [b][b]Tell me what you think[/b][/b] [/quote] [b]yep this is what i hope for too, but I'm prepared for another crushed dream of awesome.[/b] [b] [/b] [b]at least CCP the king of sandbox is making World of Darkness, so if EQ Next is too carebeary, WoD will certainly be up my alley[/b][/quote]Everquest Next is def going to be carebear all the way. It is catering to the masses not a puny minority of hardcores.[/b][/quote]

 

Clearly you never played the original, if you did then you must have forgotten, it was in NO WAY carebear. I dont see them changing that much.

Actually yes it was....in every way it was carebear.  PvP was completely segregated to another server and the game was never balanced or even nodded towards PvP.  Expect the same from EQN.

 

And Krimz....you drive the Honda of "American Muscle".  RWD is dead move up to AWD and have some fun.  ;)

And clearly you didn't play on a pvp server.

From launch they balanced the most important things, and continued to balance certain abilities and the resist system over time.

Unless of course you mean by balanced that the role system should have been torn down in favor of making every class an equal offensive threat ala WoW.  In that case, no, it wasn't balanced.  Roles still played their part in PvP, even if it meant that didn't get a lot of kills.  Rangers tracked, enchanters buffed and dispelled, clerics buffed and healed, but no they weren't "balanced" in order to make them an offensive class.

Actually a lot of the "balance" changes were more geared towards PvE players.  Take your attempted condescending tone to someone who values anything you say.  In no way would I think that watered down roles is good, however, most of their "PvP balances" were actually aimed more at the PvE players and the encounters they were in.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Classicstar

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2544

7/26/13 1:24:03 PM#31


Originally posted by Ronin316
I see alot of posts of people wanting EQN to be like a fantasy based EVE, and the more I thought about it the more interesting it sounded. If the world they are building for EQN is truly as massive as they would like us to believe then why couldn't they have a centralized or dispersed area for npc faction kingdoms. Where your factions and allegiances matter in reference to where you are and what you do. NPC controlled guards to keep those areas safe from lawlessness as it were. Then outside of that there would be those fringe areas still loosely controled by the npc factions but not as guarded and defended as the main kingdoms. Finally of course what one would equate to 0.0. Where you can do anything build anything.  Rules, laws, and taxes would be determined by those who held soverignty over that area. Alliances could be forged to make kingdoms, you get the idea. It would satiate alot of what I've read that people want in certain reguards without alienating others, atleast from a hypothetical standpoint.

Tell me what you think


I would stay lightyears away if EQN would be eve clone but then fantasy setting.

Eve sucks in many ways but thats another discusion.

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  Affordable

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/13
Posts: 43

7/26/13 1:57:52 PM#32
Originally posted by mos0811
Originally posted by Wakygreek
Please keep your Eve out of my EQN. If EQN takes the skill system from eve, I won't touch the game regardless of how awesome everything else is. Eve's skill system is a horribly designed piece of code.

Horribly designed piece of code - hmm I think they have come a long way in implementing a time based system making it easier for players.  If it's time progression you don't like, that's fine, but don't blame the code.  The code I think is great.

EvE's system isn't even a a true skill system like that found in DF.  EvE has a system where time matters.  Since 1 player could not have all the skills in the game, many people run multiple accounts; I have 3 myself, my pvp toon, my indy toon and a PI toon.  Because you can only have 1 toon training per account, it requires 3 accounts.   Not only is the time system smart from a gameplay perspective, it creates a demand for more accounts, giving CCP more money.

EvE takes patience to play, which is why it is so popular with older gamers.  It is the one game out there with a huge learning curve, and real loss when your ship goes boom (even in PvE, losing a ship on a mission hurts the isk).  EvE is the best idea out there that counters the gimme now crowd.  Those are at least concepts that EQN could take away from EvE.

 

Thank you. Please keep enlightening those noobs! (j/k)

I hope EQN is heavily influenced by EVE...

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

7/26/13 2:16:14 PM#33
Originally posted by mos0811

This may not be the EQ that everyone grew up with.  EQ in the name may only be a reference to the lore, types of land masses we will see and overall fantasy feel.  The gameplay for EQN could be completely different and very much a fantasy based EvE; we just don't know.  If it is PvP centric then I could see myself playing it for years, if it's another PvE game (even a "sandbox PvE") then it will get stale for me.

This doesn't mean you dive headfirst into the entire EVE paradigm - it's extremely out of line with both SOE and EverQuest. EVE is a niche game for very hardcore PvP oriented players. SOE is too large of a company to shoot at something that niche. They gain nothing from jumping that far and it would be really strange. They also so far failed to even attempt to attract anyone from that category of players.

It's understandable that it's stale for you but plenty of people want a PvE sandbox and there aren't really any good ones on the market, while EVE does exist and you can go play it if you want. There also Darkfall if you want dragons and swords.

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  User Deleted
7/26/13 2:50:09 PM#34
Originally posted by NagelRitter
SOE is too large of a company to shoot at something that niche. They gain nothing from jumping that far
 

To play devil's advocate:

This is what confuses me about the PVE argument.  Why do you say it's a niche?  Because of EVE's sub numbers?  Is there not other factors that might be why the game is I don't know...difficult for people to play and therefore for it to catch on?

MMORPG's have, especially in the recent years, been highly focused on PVE with poor PVP implementation.  The vast majority of gamers love PVP.  That's a fact.  How do I know it's a fact?  Let's forget Call of Duty and the like and look at one game in the fantasy genre wheel house.

Look at League of Legends.  It's a MOBA.  It also has 35 million players a month.  If even 10% of those players tried out EQN, it would have more players than almost every other MMORPG out there.

You honestly think that's not worth shooting for?

 

  munx4555

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/07
Posts: 170

7/26/13 3:04:40 PM#35

some of the people in this thread.. sheesh..

 

Just because someone wants a element of eve that makes eve truely unique, dosnt mean they want eqnext to be turned into a fantasy clone of eve..

Player run factions have been a long time coming, the fact that no devs have gone the distance with it yet (except for the eve team) is a shame, part of why eve has such a HUGE lifespan is because having a mainly player run world opens up a amount of "randomized" content that no dev would EVER be able to compete with in the long run.

Also like I have mentioned in other threads, just because you have player factions it dosnt mean you have to turn the game into a pvp game, I don't know where this misconception comes from.

Pve/pvp should never be forced upon someone, however with this scenario you have the possibility of making pve and pvp complement each other, one example is that pve players would be the backbone of the factions economical power, by constantly supplying the faction with resources needed for the pvp warfare, while the pvpers would be the factions military backbone.

Obviously there would be a need for scripted rules that limit the amount of faction zones that can be under attack at any given time, and only faction zones currently being raided should have open pvp for the duration of the raid.

 

But its definatly do able, and more importantly its rewarding, for a mmo there are very few things as important as keeping your playerbase intrested over a long period of time, even in a f2p this applies.

 

This said I can't stand eve as a game, the gameplay feels completely wrong to me, but I would be foolish to dismiss the potential of the faction system.

 

Also to be fair there have been nothing but "niche" mmos since wow, non of them manage to attract a massive amount long term players.

 

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

7/26/13 3:08:00 PM#36
Originally posted by jdnyc

This is what confuses me about the PVE argument.  Why do you say it's a niche?  Because of EVE's sub numbers?  Is there not other factors that might be why the game is I don't know...difficult for people to play and therefore for it to catch on?

Isn't that what I said? "Very hardcore PvP players" - very hardcore pretty much defines "difficult for people to play". FFA PvP games are generally extremely difficult for the mere fact that you can lose all your stuff really easily and need to follow special rules to survive.

MMORPG's have, especially in the recent years, been highly focused on PVE with poor PVP implementation.  The vast majority of gamers love PVP.  That's a fact.  How do I know it's a fact?  Let's forget Call of Duty and the like and look at one game in the fantasy genre wheel house.

Look at League of Legends.  It's a MOBA.  It also has 35 million players a month.  If even 10% of those players tried out EQN, it would have more players than almost every other MMORPG out there.

You honestly think that's not worth shooting for?

And here is where my old argument comes in that I mentioned in my other thread. The claim that most MMORPG PvPers are actually griefers and most PvPers do not play MMORPG's at all.

Yes, I agree with you! People love PvP. When it's fair, consensual, and not cheap. That's why people like Dota-likes, multiplayer shooters, as well as separated PvP modes such as WvW or DaoC style PvP. Because it's fair, it has a purpose, it makes sense, and people can choose to do it, or not, it's not forced on them. All the popular PvP you reference is consensual. I loved PvPing in GW2!

There's no proper PvP in the vast majority of FFA PvP games. Most of "PvP" there consists of manifestation of griefing and ganking, of people killing newbies, of people hunting PvE players. There is some clan based PvP but most of it is very expensive and an activity not available to most. It's generally highly disbalanced power levels and a fair fight is virtually nonexistent since PvP itself is not the point but is a means to an end. I will wager that most people have very little interest in this sort of PvP.

 

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  User Deleted
7/26/13 3:20:32 PM#37
Originally posted by NagelRitter
Originally posted by jdnyc

This is what confuses me about the PVE argument.  Why do you say it's a niche?  Because of EVE's sub numbers?  Is there not other factors that might be why the game is I don't know...difficult for people to play and therefore for it to catch on?

Isn't that what I said? "Very hardcore PvP players" - very hardcore pretty much defines "difficult for people to play". FFA PvP games are generally extremely difficult for the mere fact that you can lose all your stuff really easily and need to follow special rules to survive.

My reference to the EVE thing is about learning how to play the damn game.  No really, even with the tutorial it takes a bit of effort to really catch on to the UI and how to play the game.  That's what I meant.  I wasn't referring to the type of game it was.  I was referring that it's a spreadsheet MMO.  Not friendly for people to just pick up and play.

MMORPG's have, especially in the recent years, been highly focused on PVE with poor PVP implementation.  The vast majority of gamers love PVP.  That's a fact.  How do I know it's a fact?  Let's forget Call of Duty and the like and look at one game in the fantasy genre wheel house.

Look at League of Legends.  It's a MOBA.  It also has 35 million players a month.  If even 10% of those players tried out EQN, it would have more players than almost every other MMORPG out there.

You honestly think that's not worth shooting for?

And here is where my old argument comes in that I mentioned in my other thread. The claim that most MMORPG PvPers are actually griefers and most PvPers do not play MMORPG's at all.

Yes, I agree with you! People love PvP. When it's fair, consensual, and not cheap. That's why people like Dota-likes, multiplayer shooters, as well as separated PvP modes such as WvW or DaoC style PvP. Because it's fair, it has a purpose, it makes sense, and people can choose to do it, or not, it's not forced on them. All the popular PvP you reference is consensual. I loved PvPing in GW2!

There's no proper PvP in the vast majority of FFA PvP games. Most of "PvP" there consists of manifestation of griefing and ganking, of people killing newbies, of people hunting PvE players. There is some clan based PvP but most of it is very expensive and an activity not available to most. It's generally highly disbalanced power levels and a fair fight is virtually nonexistent since PvP itself is not the point but is a means to an end. I will wager that most people have very little interest in this sort of PvP.

Here I agree with you, believe it or not.  I would rather have no PVP in EQN, if it means griefing/poor implementation with no real objectives or purpose.  Fighting for the sake of fighting isn't enough in my mind.  But also implementing things like CTF and Domination doesn't work either because I feel EQN needs to incorporate its game design with PVP included and not as an addon.  The reason is the world needs to be thematic for me.  I would rather have an in game experience where I hear about two armies fighting in a distant land or a village that was razed, than hear about which server is in the top spot in some ad hoc instanced RvR.

I think EVE has accomplished this.  The conflicts in their game add to lore and theme of the world.  Does that mean it's perfect.  Oh heck no, but it's definitely has some good stuff to pull from in my opinion.

 

 

  mos0811

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 173

7/26/13 3:26:56 PM#38
Originally posted by NagelRitter
Originally posted by jdnyc

This is what confuses me about the PVE argument.  Why do you say it's a niche?  Because of EVE's sub numbers?  Is there not other factors that might be why the game is I don't know...difficult for people to play and therefore for it to catch on?

Isn't that what I said? "Very hardcore PvP players" - very hardcore pretty much defines "difficult for people to play". FFA PvP games are generally extremely difficult for the mere fact that you can lose all your stuff really easily and need to follow special rules to survive.

MMORPG's have, especially in the recent years, been highly focused on PVE with poor PVP implementation.  The vast majority of gamers love PVP.  That's a fact.  How do I know it's a fact?  Let's forget Call of Duty and the like and look at one game in the fantasy genre wheel house.

Look at League of Legends.  It's a MOBA.  It also has 35 million players a month.  If even 10% of those players tried out EQN, it would have more players than almost every other MMORPG out there.

You honestly think that's not worth shooting for?

And here is where my old argument comes in that I mentioned in my other thread. The claim that most MMORPG PvPers are actually griefers and most PvPers do not play MMORPG's at all.

Yes, I agree with you! People love PvP. When it's fair, consensual, and not cheap. That's why people like Dota-likes, multiplayer shooters, as well as separated PvP modes such as WvW or DaoC style PvP. Because it's fair, it has a purpose, it makes sense, and people can choose to do it, or not, it's not forced on them. All the popular PvP you reference is consensual. I loved PvPing in GW2!

There's no proper PvP in the vast majority of FFA PvP games. Most of "PvP" there consists of manifestation of griefing and ganking, of people killing newbies, of people hunting PvE players. There is some clan based PvP but most of it is very expensive and an activity not available to most. It's generally highly disbalanced power levels and a fair fight is virtually nonexistent since PvP itself is not the point but is a means to an end. I will wager that most people have very little interest in this sort of PvP.

 

I don't think that people like multi-player shooters because they are fair and consensual.  I personally think it's because it's easy to get into.  You don't have to build a character and progress, you just play.  The FPS crowd you are referring to are a huge part of the gimme generation.  Persistent worlds in MMOs can actually have loss, you don't have loss in FPS games, therefor it's quick easy with no real risk and in my opinion no real reward.  EvE is all about risk vs reward and that's fun.

I hate that the FPS genre has moved so much into the traditional mmoRPG genre, it has diluted what was once fun.  Open world PvP games need to have non-consensual PvP so things like territory control and asset destruction.  Also there is no fair in PvP, it is all about putting your guild on top while tearing someone else down.  But even in my last sentence it doesn't mean that people have to be jerks about it.  I never once cursed or belittled someone in Shadowbane when I beat them 1v1 or if my guild beat them at a siege; it was always "gf" or see you at the next bane/mine fight.

The reason there is no good PvP in games is because the devs have not added.  Shadowbane had 3 levels of PvP; 1. the city/castle siege called a bane.  These were a monthly and sometimes weekly ordeal, but they were your "big" group PvP.  It meant something to defend your city.  2. The daily mine fights, were great for 1 group to go against another guild for resources.  These occurred daily at multiple locations.  3. Your solo PvP - this is where you would find most of your "ganking & griefing".  But even with #3 the game was not built around ganking and griefing, it was just a byproduct of other good game mechanics.  I'm hoping that a large AAA company will create non-instanced sieges again as the main focus of the game.  That is EvE's big draw - territory control.  SOE could surely do it with EQN - in a week we will see.  I have no qualms coming back here and admitting that EQN may not be what I want, but I still have hope.

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

7/26/13 4:15:14 PM#39
Originally posted by mos0811

I don't think that people like multi-player shooters because they are fair and consensual.  I personally think it's because it's easy to get into.  You don't have to build a character and progress, you just play.  The FPS crowd you are referring to are a huge part of the gimme generation.  Persistent worlds in MMOs can actually have loss, you don't have loss in FPS games, therefor it's quick easy with no real risk and in my opinion no real reward.  EvE is all about risk vs reward and that's fun.

These concepts are actually closely related. The reason these games are so easy to get into is because they're about PvP and only PvP, they are not about anything else. So the issue of consent doesn't even arise there because all there is to do in those games is consent to PvP. And when people don't want it, they don't play those games. The same applies to PlanetSide 2 which is a game with some degree of progression iirc.

If EVE only had ships pew pewing at each other, nobody would care.

The vast majority of video games do not involve any sort of strange "risk/reward" system. I am not sure why so many people here are obsessed with the idea. Video games have a much older history than that and there's a wide range of games there. There were games with Save-Load systems and games with essentially permadeath. It was often done for giggles and never followed risk-reward. They all have a place. There isn't some sort of a trend you're seeing, people just like different games and most games never followed risk-reward because that is artificial.

Gimme generation? I don't know about FPS (don't play them) but I challenge you to get good at Dota 2. You will find there's nothing gimme about it even remotely. It's rather overwhelming for most people, yet it is, what, top game on Steam? These games take practice, patience, dedication, teamwork, and much of research to get good at, and there are no noobs to shoot at unless you smurf. Every game is a fair game and a challenge to your personal ability. I personally have a much higher opinion of good Dota 2 and LoL or SCII players than I do of some random pirate in EVE, because there's distinct proof they are actually good players and not mere opportunists. These games are not some stupid risk-reward scheme because that concept doesn't make any sense in 90% of games out there move on already and stop applying it in places where it doesn't belong.

Point of the matter is: these games do not really enter the discussion at all and the PvP in these games has no relation to PvP in MMO's.

But even with #3 the game was not built around ganking and griefing, it was just a byproduct of other good game mechanics.

It's a very bad byproduct so until you can clean it up, forget about PvEers in your games outside the small amount that can be currently found in such games at present time. Safe zones and zone separation is precisely what is done to remove gankers, because then normal PvPers can go enter PvP zones and griefers have nobody to grief other than other PvP players.

 

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  Bidwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 555

7/26/13 5:35:50 PM#40
Originally posted by Ronin316

I see alot of posts of people wanting EQN to be like a fantasy based EVE, and the more I thought about it the more interesting it sounded. If the world they are building for EQN is truly as massive as they would like us to believe then why couldn't they have a centralized or dispersed area for npc faction kingdoms. Where your factions and allegiances matter in reference to where you are and what you do. NPC controlled guards to keep those areas safe from lawlessness as it were. Then outside of that there would be those fringe areas still loosely controled by the npc factions but not as guarded and defended as the main kingdoms. Finally of course what one would equate to 0.0. Where you can do anything build anything.  Rules, laws, and taxes would be determined by those who held soverignty over that area. Alliances could be forged to make kingdoms, you get the idea. It would satiate alot of what I've read that people want in certain reguards without alienating others, atleast from a hypothetical standpoint.

Tell me what you think

I agree with you. Some folks will argue it because most MMO devs over the past decade have purposely left risk out of their worlds. The idea that most of the map could involve risk clashes with the paradigm we've all been brainwashed by over time. But it's part of the best virtual worlds.

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