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World of Warcraft

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General Discussion  » Call the ambulance WoW under 8 million subs now

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299 posts found
  Jean-Luc_Picard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2404

There... are... four... lights!

7/26/13 9:48:26 AM#61
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by NagelRitter
Originally posted by Cirin

I've never understood those that want the game to be less intuitive and slower 'just because'.  Let me get through all the bs as fast as possible so I can enjoy the game (at the end).

Let's just say WoW used to be a very different game...

I've played it since beta....we can say whatever we want and, really, it was nice in BC but has never been "that different".

 

As I say every time someone brings this garbage up...Rose-tinted glasses.  Some can't seem to be critical enough of their own memories to even see past that.

Denying that cataclysm totally changed the world and made the leveling a totally linear experience with little to no room for improvisation is another form of colored vision.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

7/26/13 9:51:41 AM#62
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Cirin
Originally posted by NagelRitter
Originally posted by Cirin

I've never understood those that want the game to be less intuitive and slower 'just because'.  Let me get through all the bs as fast as possible so I can enjoy the game (at the end).

Let's just say WoW used to be a very different game...

I've played it since beta....we can say whatever we want and, really, it was nice in BC but has never been "that different".

 

As I say every time someone brings this garbage up...Rose-tinted glasses.  Some can't seem to be critical enough of their own memories to even see past that.

Denying that cataclysm totally changed the world and made the leveling a totally linear experience with little to no room for improvisation is another form of colored vision.

 

If you think there was "choice" before you were fooling yourself.

 

Yes you could take multiple paths that were less efficient, great.  I tell you what, today when you drive to work (if you work) instead of heading right at the light...turn left, take the opposite way to work.  Yeah, it will take longer and you'll run into more traffic, you might be late, but it'll look different and that's important. 

 

We have choices all the time and yes you're right you had more of a choice then, however, there was still one predominant path to take each and every time.  Taking any other path was "scenic" but really only for the sake of being scenic.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

7/26/13 9:51:53 AM#63
Originally posted by Cirin

I've played it since beta....we can say whatever we want and, really, it was nice in BC but has never been "that different".

I guess we find different things important to call something different. Vanilla was a much slower game where people didn't really rush to max level (that was quite painful), questing was open-ended and you could do whatever you want, the game was full of things like quests that made you go to other continents, it had class quests and dungeon quests, and the world wasn't empty...

As I say every time someone brings this garbage up...Rose-tinted glasses.  Some can't seem to be critical enough of their own memories to even see past that.

1.12.1 is right over there, nothing rose tinted about something you can freely try. Maybe that's your issue - you haven't actually PLAYED it in a while so you forgot what it was like. I didn't believe it, either, because I have never played Vanilla WoW in its originality. But now I did. So you can't fool me with rose tinted glasses, and that never applied to me. 1.12.1 can actually rival many modern MMO's no problem.


We have choices all the time and yes you're right you had more of a choice then, however, there was still one predominant path to take each and every time.  Taking any other path was "scenic" but really only for the sake of being scenic.

Err, what path? You could quest in any order and the speed differences between some specific questing order is only noticeable to powerlevelers...

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2404

There... are... four... lights!

7/26/13 9:57:24 AM#64
Originally posted by Cirin
 

If you think there was "choice" before you were fooling yourself.

You could just do a part of a zone and skip the parts you didn't like. You can no longer do that, you have to follow the main zone wide quest line since futher stages will be phased.

And the stuff about the "scenic road" doesn't make any sense.

Relax man, I gave Blizzard my money during 8 years for 2 accounts, I'm not the average "WoW hater" you find on this forum. I'm actually still a fan of the game, I won't spit on something that kept me entertained for so long. Still, the game has drastically changed during the two last expansions.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

7/26/13 9:59:37 AM#65
Originally posted by NagelRitter
Originally posted by Cirin

I've played it since beta....we can say whatever we want and, really, it was nice in BC but has never been "that different".

I guess we find different things important to call something different. Vanilla was a much slower game where people didn't really rush to max level (that was quite painful), questing was open-ended and you could do whatever you want, the game was full of things like quests that made you go to other continents, it had class quests and dungeon quests, and the world wasn't empty...

As I say every time someone brings this garbage up...Rose-tinted glasses.  Some can't seem to be critical enough of their own memories to even see past that.

1.12.1 is right over there, nothing rose tinted about something you can freely try. Maybe that's your issue - you haven't actually PLAYED it in a while so you forgot what it was like. I didn't believe it, either, because I have never played Vanilla WoW in its originality. But now I did. So you can't fool me with rose tinted glasses, and that never applied to me. 1.12.1 can actually rival many modern MMO's no problem.


We have choices all the time and yes you're right you had more of a choice then, however, there was still one predominant path to take each and every time.  Taking any other path was "scenic" but really only for the sake of being scenic.

Err, what path? You could quest in any order and the speed differences between some specific questing order is only noticeable to powerlevelers...

Every game starts at end game.

 

The journey is really only there to facilitate the skills required to be competent at max level.  I'm not saying you're wrong but I don't play games to "escape"...it's a hobby I enjoy but I don't need it to 'emulate life' or be beautiful or anything like that.  I want character development and fun.  I don't enjoy grinding for hours for no reason at all and I have plenty of social interaction outside of the game so I don't run to it for that either (although guildies/friends are great when you want to raid/instance/dungeon/whatever).

 

Yes, I imagine we're seeking different things.  I'm seeking a game to play, that's enjoyable, where I can develop my character, etc..  I do hate some of the choices made (simplified talent trees?), however , I understand some of the design choices based on the other complexities; reforging, gemming, leveling of gear, etc..  I would prefer an even more complex system with more varied and meaningful choices, but nothing like that really exists so sometimes you have to settle for what's available until the next arrives.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2404

There... are... four... lights!

7/26/13 10:03:02 AM#66
Originally posted by Cirin

Every game starts at end game.

<--- My avatar once again applies.

Every game can be played in many different ways.

Actually, in my opinion, this is the worse WoW has done to the genre... make people think only "end game" matters. EQ started it, WoW made it widely popular so that many MMO players think it's the only way to play such a game.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

7/26/13 10:04:13 AM#67

@Cirin

Then you have to understand that your view is a very solitary one. What made WoW as popular as it was were the elements that you think have no value. Games weren't all end-game centric then, people liked WoW because it let them be characters in a WarCraft universe, you wouldn't be able to sell end-game raiding to them if you tried, it is only after they put effort into their characters in the world that they wanted to care about bigger challenges. These were the players that rejected the leveling of EQ.

What you like is irrelevant, we were not talking about what you liked. We were talking about what changed, and WoW definitely changed very, very drastically, and I saw little proof that these changes helped with its population levels at all.

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

7/26/13 10:08:59 AM#68
Originally posted by NagelRitter

@Cirin

Then you have to understand that your view is a very solitary one. What made WoW as popular as it was were the elements that you think have no value. Games weren't all end-game centric then, people liked WoW because it let them be characters in a WarCraft universe, you wouldn't be able to sell end-game raiding to them if you tried, it is only after they put effort into their characters in the world that they wanted to care about bigger challenges. These were the players that rejected the leveling of EQ.

What you like is irrelevant, we were not talking about what you liked. We were talking about what changed, and WoW definitely changed very, very drastically, and I saw little proof that these changes helped with its population levels at all.

Actually, what WoW changed initially was the pace.

 

What attracted people in droves initially was the fact that, unlike the other games at the time, you could play and develop MUCH FASTER than anything else out at the time.  Granted it has become faster and faster over time but that is to be expected with changes to their game.  It's only logical that this happens when you raise the level cap.

 

You can pretend as if my viewpoint is the minority, you would be wrong.  There is a very vocal minority that touts their sandbox, zero-development drivel all over these forums but fortunately the numbers (cash) speak to the developers and they continue to cater to those that actually stay and play (here's a hint, it's not the scenery driven crafters).

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2404

There... are... four... lights!

7/26/13 10:11:22 AM#69

Actually, what was the most praised about WoW during beta and at release wasn't the leveling speed (which was also much slower back then), but the fact that you could level 100% by doing quests instead of having to set camp and grind mobs for hours and hours.

It wasn't the "end game" raids either - back then, Blizzard themself said that only a tiny minority of the players raided.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  STYNKFYST

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/27/13
Posts: 232

7/26/13 10:12:20 AM#70
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Cirin

Every game starts at end game.

<--- My avatar once again applies.

Every game can be played in many different ways.

Actually, in my opinion, this is the worse WoW has done to the genre... make people think only "end game" matters. EQ started it, WoW made it widely popular so that many MMO players think it's the only way to play such a game.

^This

Game ends at end game to me. The journey is the only thing that matters IMO.

About this whole "popularity" game everyone likes to play in regards to WoW....McDonald's is still probably the most visited fast food chain these days. Is it the best? Hell no!. But many more people go there than the others. People are too lazy to try anything else for more than a day.

  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 514

7/26/13 10:13:08 AM#71

I wish this type of report told us where the sub lost is happening: Western World or Asia.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

7/26/13 10:13:26 AM#72
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Actually, what was the most praised about WoW during beta and at release wasn't the leveling speed (which was also much slower back then), but the fact that you could level 100% by doing quests instead of having to set camp and grind mobs for hours and hours.

Agreed, the lack of dependency on groups led to a MUCH FASTER pace.

 

On top of that the time investment was shorter as well to level compared to any other product at the time.

 

At this point we're really arguing semantics as I would say my point still stands, including this.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  doodphace

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 1000

7/26/13 10:14:32 AM#73
Originally posted by azarhal

I wish this type of report told us where the sub lost is happening: Western World or Asia.

Everytime they announce sub losses in their quarterly reviews (which will happen next week), thay have always say the majorify of sub losses are in Asia.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

7/26/13 10:16:02 AM#74
Originally posted by STYNKFYST
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Cirin

Every game starts at end game.

<--- My avatar once again applies.

Every game can be played in many different ways.

Actually, in my opinion, this is the worse WoW has done to the genre... make people think only "end game" matters. EQ started it, WoW made it widely popular so that many MMO players think it's the only way to play such a game.

^This

Game ends at end game to me. The journey is the only thing that matters IMO.

About this whole "popularity" game everyone likes to play in regards to WoW....McDonald's is still probably the most visited fast food chain these days. Is it the best? Hell no!. But many more people go there than the others. People are too lazy to try anything else for more than a day.

The food comparison is asinine, at best.

 

WoW is an investment of time, whereas McDonalds is quite the opposite, it actually saves people time (and money in their eyes).  This comparison couldn't be more flawed and needs to stop being used as it lends zero validity to anyone with intelligence.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

7/26/13 10:17:46 AM#75
Originally posted by Cirin

Actually, what WoW changed initially was the pace.

Was it, really? Do you seriously imagine the average person who doesn't know crap about MMORPG's worry about "pace" and how soon they reach endgame? Unthinkable. WoW attracted people because it was Blizzard + WarCraft. The influx of WoW players started from WCIII and WCIII TFT. And a LOT of people were WC fans, including myself, everyone flocked to WoW who had the money and the internet connection. To pretend that WC had no effect on WoW is preposterous...

The rest, what kept people in the game, was that it was a relatively well-made game, it didn't have a horrible UI, it was intuitive, it made sense, and, yes, it let people solo and not be forced into groups all the time. It was a fairly relaxed game, which is kind of the point - endgame rushing makes it not a relaxed game anymore, no matter how "casual" it is.

Faster pace... consider the times, it was 2004, MMO's were just coming out. Next you're going to tell me people played EVE because of "consequences". None of these discussions existed at that time. WoW wasn't made for hardcore raiders, WoW created them.

There is a very vocal minority that touts their sandbox, zero-development drivel all over these forums but fortunately the numbers (cash) speak to the developers and they continue to cater to those that actually stay and play (here's a hint, it's not the scenery driven crafters).

Where did I mention anything about sandboxes or crafting? Or are you just out of things to say at this point?

You realize there are different ways to design the same themepark, right?

Also, your comments about a vocal minority is hilarious. I don't know of a more prominent vocal minority than the hardcore raider who thinks everyone plays games his way when the vast majority don't.

 

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  Prenho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/29/12
Posts: 306

7/26/13 10:18:55 AM#76
The thing I want to see the most is WoW going to oblivion. i will make party if it happens.It will help the  MMO genre.
  Jean-Luc_Picard

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2404

There... are... four... lights!

7/26/13 10:20:03 AM#77
Originally posted by STYNKFYST
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Cirin

Every game starts at end game.

<--- My avatar once again applies.

Every game can be played in many different ways.

Actually, in my opinion, this is the worse WoW has done to the genre... make people think only "end game" matters. EQ started it, WoW made it widely popular so that many MMO players think it's the only way to play such a game.

^This

Game ends at end game to me. The journey is the only thing that matters IMO.

About this whole "popularity" game everyone likes to play in regards to WoW....McDonald's is still probably the most visited fast food chain these days. Is it the best? Hell no!. But many more people go there than the others. People are too lazy to try anything else for more than a day.

The McDonald's line is still as wrong as ever. McDonald's is the most visited simply because they expanded everywhere in the world. My country (France) doesn't have brands like Taco Bell (a shame...) or Burger King, or Wimpy. We only got KFC recently (and the food is imho way worse for health than McDonalds). There are only a few fast food big brands, among which McDonalds is by far the most expanded. Why do people go more to McDonalds? Very simple, there's a McDonalds almost everywhere in the world! Why don't they go to Burger King instead? Because many countries don't even have that brand. When you have twice as many restaurants in the worlds as any other brand, you will obviously have more customers even if your food isn't the best of the best.

Same is not true for an online game on the Internet. You can access most AAA MMORPGs from everywhere in the world, even more now that they are sold as downloadable software. Why have people still chosen WoW over other games, like e.g. EQ2 which was released at the same time? The EQ2 boxes where right near the WoW boxes on the shop shelves, and EQ2 was a big MMO brand with huge following. The answer is simple: it's not because WoW was more available, like McDonald's restaurants are, but because people liked WoW better!

So the McDonalds - WoW comparison doesn't make any sense, and never had.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Novusod

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 840

7/26/13 10:45:05 AM#78
At this point there is nothing Blizzard can do to increase sales revenue. It is too early for Free 2 Play conversion and they already have a cash shop. Their only option if they want to make more profits for Actavision's shareholders is to start cutting costs. This means laying off staff, cutting support, closing and merging servers, etc. Maybe it is time to start working on WoW2 if they aren't already doing it in secret. My prediction is they will be under 7 million subs by the end of the year.
  Prenho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/29/12
Posts: 306

7/26/13 10:49:16 AM#79
Originally posted by Ikeda

Nadia,  I agree with you 100%.

Still, show me a MMO with even a quarter of the WoW subscription base.... Even at this point.

Lineage 1 still has almost 2 million subs(eastern market). It is not a quarter but it is a good number.

  bcbully

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6489

7/26/13 10:57:22 AM#80
Originally posted by Prenho
Originally posted by Ikeda

Nadia,  I agree with you 100%.

Still, show me a MMO with even a quarter of the WoW subscription base.... Even at this point.

Lineage 1 still has almost 2 million subs(eastern market). It is not a quarter but it is a good number.

America is the only market to a lot of our friends here....

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