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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Too much realism is not good for games

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119 posts found
  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1313

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

7/23/13 1:05:01 PM#41


Originally posted by Loke666
... why would you carry food that spoils in your backpack anyways when stuff like jerky is good for a long time?


Can't fault a guy for wanting a PB & J in his backpack once in a while.

P L A N E T S I D E 1 is up !! check PS1 forum for link to current installer.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10399

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

7/23/13 1:19:49 PM#42

That was a good article. I thought the bits about realistic mechanics pushing players to do repetitive and unrealistic things was interesting, and not something I had really thought about before. I also liked the bit about how there are unrealistic things that players rarely notice, because being realistic actually makes things more difficult. Like really high ceilings in all the buildings you enter so the camera has room to move around. Then there's the more realistic tiny rooms that you have a hard time moving around in because the camera has to zoom in really close.

Something else that had never occurred to me was crafting. It takes like two weeks to make a sword, if you know what you're doing. It's got to take longer to make those fancy swords we have in games, but there we are, banging them out, once every five or ten seconds. It doesn't matter what you do with crafting, it's not going to be realistic or add realism because nothing you make is made in any way like actually making the item. Then again, a crafting system in place can lead to very realistic activity, like an in game economy.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  sunshadow21

Elite Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

7/23/13 1:32:12 PM#43
Originally posted by lizardbones

That was a good article. I thought the bits about realistic mechanics pushing players to do repetitive and unrealistic things was interesting, and not something I had really thought about before. I also liked the bit about how there are unrealistic things that players rarely notice, because being realistic actually makes things more difficult. Like really high ceilings in all the buildings you enter so the camera has room to move around. Then there's the more realistic tiny rooms that you have a hard time moving around in because the camera has to zoom in really close.

Something else that had never occurred to me was crafting. It takes like two weeks to make a sword, if you know what you're doing. It's got to take longer to make those fancy swords we have in games, but there we are, banging them out, once every five or ten seconds. It doesn't matter what you do with crafting, it's not going to be realistic or add realism because nothing you make is made in any way like actually making the item. Then again, a crafting system in place can lead to very realistic activity, like an in game economy.

I think you hit on a few key points. Realism must occasionally give way, but it cannot feel like you're breaking reality entirely. Things like larger rooms are a fact of life in pretty much any computer game that most people simply accept, largely because it's consistent across the entire game. Likewise, crafting systems have to bend reality in many ways, but the successful one at least capture the feeling of being realistic in both approach and end result. I think in the end, being realistic for the sake of being realistic is a no go, but so is breaking reality for the sake of breaking reality, and crafting is a prime example of this. Shortening the times of the individual steps is a necessary nod to these being games, but that doesn't mean that one should at the same time simply ignore real world processes and related tools when designing ingame processes and tools.

  sunshadow21

Elite Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

7/23/13 1:35:31 PM#44
The Everquest example is actually one I find interesting, as it highlights one big difference that will always exist between games and the real world, and that is time. I know tons of people in real life who would engage in that kind of behavior if the time factor was more forgiving for them to do so. As it is, very few people have the time to spam an activity like that in real life that isn't their job or primary focus, so you don't really see it much outside those who are wealthy enough that they don't have to worry overly much about day to day needs and tasks.
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

7/23/13 1:44:41 PM#45
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Icewhite

Or...the devs expected this item to be, you know, actually rare.

That means, not everyone has one.

Bad idea to make stuff actually rare. What is the point to make an item if only 0.0000001% of your audience will ever see one.

I wouldn't know, the company I worked for made Uniques (as in, one of a kind, ever). :shrug:

No one told them "that doesn't work!", I guess. Sold a lot of tickets to customers who seemed to enjoy getting them, too.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2741

7/23/13 2:09:36 PM#46
Originally posted by lizardbones

That was a good article. I thought the bits about realistic mechanics pushing players to do repetitive and unrealistic things was interesting, and not something I had really thought about before. I also liked the bit about how there are unrealistic things that players rarely notice, because being realistic actually makes things more difficult. Like really high ceilings in all the buildings you enter so the camera has room to move around. Then there's the more realistic tiny rooms that you have a hard time moving around in because the camera has to zoom in really close.

Something else that had never occurred to me was crafting. It takes like two weeks to make a sword, if you know what you're doing. It's got to take longer to make those fancy swords we have in games, but there we are, banging them out, once every five or ten seconds. It doesn't matter what you do with crafting, it's not going to be realistic or add realism because nothing you make is made in any way like actually making the item. Then again, a crafting system in place can lead to very realistic activity, like an in game economy.

I'll bet you never tried to make a +9700 quality spade in "A Tale in the Desert" ? 

 

You started with a big block of metal and selection of hammers. You could vary how hard you wanted to hit the metal block, and where to hit it, and each hammer had a different point shape and size. Each strike deformed the metal block, causing appropriately-shaped dents and bulges (different hammer points) of varying size and depth (force of the blow).

You could only hit the metal block a set number of times. If you didn't make something useful, the metal block was scrapped.

If you had a lot of patience and determination, coupled with a certain spatial talent, you could fairly consistently make top quality tools. The vast majority of players could only manage medium quality... 

  madazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1299

7/23/13 2:25:01 PM#47

Too much can be bad, but realism as a whole is a good thing. No one wants to craft a sword for hours on end, but people who enjoy crafting don't want to just walk up and hit a button that instantly makes it either. It's about balance. And obviously as mentioned earlier going to the bathroom is stupid. 

 

Some people want less realism, some want more. But I think very few want the kind of realism that the majority considers overboard. Thing is, no one is wrong. If there is a market for it, people will be there.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  7/23/13 2:38:13 PM#48
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Icewhite

Or...the devs expected this item to be, you know, actually rare.

That means, not everyone has one.

Bad idea to make stuff actually rare. What is the point to make an item if only 0.0000001% of your audience will ever see one.

I wouldn't know, the company I worked for made Uniques (as in, one of a kind, ever). :shrug:

No one told them "that doesn't work!", I guess. Sold a lot of tickets to customers who seemed to enjoy getting them, too.

I am talking about virtual stuff where the cost of duplication is zero.

 

  Badaboom

Elite Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2372

7/23/13 2:40:11 PM#49
The harder the game (in most cases that means more realistic), the longer the playability.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  7/23/13 2:41:52 PM#50
Originally posted by madazz

Too much can be bad, but realism as a whole is a good thing. No one wants to craft a sword for hours on end, but people who enjoy crafting don't want to just walk up and hit a button that instantly makes it either. It's about balance. And obviously as mentioned earlier going to the bathroom is stupid. 

 

Some people want less realism, some want more. But I think very few want the kind of realism that the majority considers overboard. Thing is, no one is wrong. If there is a market for it, people will be there.

That is the point. Let the market decide. From what i have observe in the market place:

1) slow travel is too much. LFD/LFR, fast travel is the norm. Even Skyrim has fast travel.

2) Crafting .... counter to what you said, it seems that large masses of players don't mind hitting-one-button to craft mechanics. No one stops playing WOW because of that. OTOH, games with complex crafting like SWG was doing poorly. So either people don't want complex crafting, or they don't care about crafting enough for it to matter.

3) Instances are not "realistic" but the market seems to decide that it should be a standard feature.

Sure there are different preferences and niche games but these seems to be the major trends in the market.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  7/23/13 2:43:29 PM#51
Originally posted by Badaboom
The harder the game (in most cases that means more realistic), the longer the playability.

No. Harder has nothing to do with being realistic. MP10 is hard in D3. It is as realistic as MP0.

Sunwell raid in WOW is 100x harder than open world quests. It is in an instance and less 'realistic' than open world stuff.

 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18786

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/23/13 2:44:09 PM#52
Originally posted by SpottyGekko
Originally posted by lizardbones

That was a good article. I thought the bits about realistic mechanics pushing players to do repetitive and unrealistic things was interesting, and not something I had really thought about before. I also liked the bit about how there are unrealistic things that players rarely notice, because being realistic actually makes things more difficult. Like really high ceilings in all the buildings you enter so the camera has room to move around. Then there's the more realistic tiny rooms that you have a hard time moving around in because the camera has to zoom in really close.

Something else that had never occurred to me was crafting. It takes like two weeks to make a sword, if you know what you're doing. It's got to take longer to make those fancy swords we have in games, but there we are, banging them out, once every five or ten seconds. It doesn't matter what you do with crafting, it's not going to be realistic or add realism because nothing you make is made in any way like actually making the item. Then again, a crafting system in place can lead to very realistic activity, like an in game economy.

I'll bet you never tried to make a +9700 quality spade in "A Tale in the Desert" ? 

 

You started with a big block of metal and selection of hammers. You could vary how hard you wanted to hit the metal block, and where to hit it, and each hammer had a different point shape and size. Each strike deformed the metal block, causing appropriately-shaped dents and bulges (different hammer points) of varying size and depth (force of the blow).

You could only hit the metal block a set number of times. If you didn't make something useful, the metal block was scrapped.

If you had a lot of patience and determination, coupled with a certain spatial talent, you could fairly consistently make top quality tools. The vast majority of players could only manage medium quality... 

Now see, this sort of crafting does not interest me, but it does some folks so I'm all for MMO's having designs like this so I can buy really great tools/weapons from them to go wack stuff with.

But you did say some dirty words to today's modern gamer, patience and determination, went the way of the dodo along with persistence, perseverance, and a few others.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  sunshadow21

Elite Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

7/23/13 2:53:41 PM#53
Originally posted by Kyleran

But you did say some dirty words to today's modern gamer, patience and determination, went the way of the dodo along with persistence, perseverance, and a few others.

Sadly, you're more right than not, which is problematic in this genre, given the whole intent was to reward those very things.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  7/23/13 3:00:09 PM#54
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by Kyleran

But you did say some dirty words to today's modern gamer, patience and determination, went the way of the dodo along with persistence, perseverance, and a few others.

Sadly, you're more right than not, which is problematic in this genre, given the whole intent was to reward those very things.

Change the intent. Problem solved. In fact, the intent of entertainment products is to entertain.

Why would an entertainment product rewards patience and determination? If i am a dev, i certainly do not want only patient people as my audience.

 

  sunshadow21

Elite Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

7/23/13 3:10:11 PM#55
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by Kyleran

But you did say some dirty words to today's modern gamer, patience and determination, went the way of the dodo along with persistence, perseverance, and a few others.

Sadly, you're more right than not, which is problematic in this genre, given the whole intent was to reward those very things.

Change the intent. Problem solved. In fact, the intent of entertainment products is to entertain.

Why would an entertainment product rewards patience and determination? If i am a dev, i certainly do not want only patient people as my audience.

 

Why not, if that was the original intent of that particular mode of entertainment? I get that you don't like the older style of MMO, but why completely change it instead of looking at something that already provides what you are looking for and can do so in a far more effective manner with far less changes? If you arent willing to accept that your product would end up being a niche product, why look at that model in the first place? That is the biggest problem I have with the attitude you present. There are other ways of accomplshing those goals that are far more effective and create a far more diverse market that helps out everyone. Changing an existing niche because you want to make it mainstream doesn't really help anyone; the mainstream will still largely reject it as other existing products can probably do the same thng better, and you probably lose the orignal market in the process.

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2741

7/23/13 3:15:29 PM#56
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by Kyleran

But you did say some dirty words to today's modern gamer, patience and determination, went the way of the dodo along with persistence, perseverance, and a few others.

Sadly, you're more right than not, which is problematic in this genre, given the whole intent was to reward those very things.

Change the intent. Problem solved. In fact, the intent of entertainment products is to entertain.

Why would an entertainment product rewards patience and determination? If i am a dev, i certainly do not want only patient people as my audience.

 

Back in the day when it required patience, determination and perseverance just to get the damn game to LOAD ( in your 640K of main DOS memory), a great many PC games were designed to appeal to people who had those traits in abundance.

 

But times have changed, and so have the attributes and traits of the average gamer, who is now drawn from a TOTALLY different pool of the population than 15 or 20 years ago. Hell, the highest levels of "Lemmings" was hard enough to reduce a grown man to tears... and baldness 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  7/23/13 3:16:56 PM#57
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by Kyleran

But you did say some dirty words to today's modern gamer, patience and determination, went the way of the dodo along with persistence, perseverance, and a few others.

Sadly, you're more right than not, which is problematic in this genre, given the whole intent was to reward those very things.

Change the intent. Problem solved. In fact, the intent of entertainment products is to entertain.

Why would an entertainment product rewards patience and determination? If i am a dev, i certainly do not want only patient people as my audience.

 

Why not, if that was the original intent of that particular mode of entertainment? I get that you don't like the older style of MMO, but why completely change it instead of looking at something that already provides what you are looking for and can do so in a far more effective manner with far less changes? If you arent willing to accept that your product would end up being a niche product, why look at that model in the first place? That is the biggest problem I have with the attitude you present. There are other ways of accomplshing those goals that are far more effective and create a far more diverse market that helps out everyone. Changing an existing niche because you want to make it mainstream doesn't really help anyone; the mainstream will still largely reject it as other existing products can probably do the same thng better, and you probably lose the orignal market in the process.

Because that is how products adapt to the market place?

You are confused about who is doing the change. I am not changing my preference or anything. I just play games that i like .. as always.

MMOs are adapting and going to where the audience is. BTW, if MMOs are niche and don't cater to my preference, i won't even be here.

The reason i am here is that MMOs has become mainstream, and MMO devs decide to adapt to the market for a larger audience. And why shouldn't they do that? Do you want to make a product that more enjoy?

And obviously it is their game, their goals, not yours.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  7/23/13 3:18:40 PM#58
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

 

Back in the day when it required patience, determination and perseverance just to get the damn game to LOAD ( in your 640K of main DOS memory), a great many PC games were designed to appeal to people who had those traits in abundance.

 

I was there. I prefer today's entertainment.

It is less fun to have to be patient to get a game to just load. Heck my first Apple 2+ did not even have a disk drive (added later) and i have to wait for tapes to load.

 

  sunshadow21

Elite Member

Joined: 8/15/04
Posts: 355

7/23/13 3:21:39 PM#59
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Because that is how products adapt to the market place?

You are confused about who is doing the change. I am not changing my preference or anything. I just play games that i like .. as always.

MMOs are adapting and going to where the audience is. BTW, if MMOs are niche and don't cater to my preference, i won't even be here.

The reason i am here is that MMOs has become mainstream, and MMO devs decide to adapt to the market for a larger audience. And why shouldn't they do that? Do you want to make a product that more enjoy?

And obviously it is their game, their goals, not yours.

 

And why abandon the original market? I can understand expanding into new markets, but that does not require abandoning the original one. Contrary to what you clearly believe, it is possible to have both kinds of games available at the same time. I have nothing against what most people deem to be entertainment, but I do have something against people telling me that what I find entertaining isnt popolar enough to care about anymore.

 

EDIT: I guess in the end, I find the idea that somethng should be ignored because its niche to be incredibly stupid and short thinking. You have to approach niche markets differently than main stream markets, but that doesnt mean that you should ignore them entirely.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

 
OP  7/23/13 3:26:35 PM#60
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Because that is how products adapt to the market place?

You are confused about who is doing the change. I am not changing my preference or anything. I just play games that i like .. as always.

MMOs are adapting and going to where the audience is. BTW, if MMOs are niche and don't cater to my preference, i won't even be here.

The reason i am here is that MMOs has become mainstream, and MMO devs decide to adapt to the market for a larger audience. And why shouldn't they do that? Do you want to make a product that more enjoy?

And obviously it is their game, their goals, not yours.

 

And why abandon the original market? I can understand expanding into new markets, but that does not require abandoning the original one. Contrary to what you clearly believe, it is possible to have both kinds of games available at the same time. I have nothing against what most people deem to be entertainment, but I do have something against people telling me that what I find entertaining isnt popolar enough to care about anymore.

But is it true? If what you like is not being produced by the market, isn't it the same as saying it is not popular?

Whether you like it or not, you don't control if it is popular. Do you prefer to put your head in the sand if it is not?

And why abandon the original market? To make more money? To innovate and progress to new ideas? Apple abandoned the original iPod market and cannibalize it with the iphone and was viewed as a brilliant move. HP abandoned the original electronic component market to great success in the early 2000. IBM abandoned the PC market and was considered a great move.

It happened in business all the time.

 

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