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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » SoE has the most dishonest payment model of all MMO companies.

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81 posts found
  User Deleted
7/17/13 8:13:22 AM#61
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Dihoru

I had higher expectations from you but it seems no matter how intelligent a person may seem their IQ goes through the floor when discussing F2P ^^.

Are you immune to your own observation?

Nope but I tend to also be hyper critical with myself so I goof less often (though I still do).

  gakule

Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/07
Posts: 92

7/17/13 8:15:30 AM#62
Originally posted by Waterlily

While people argue about P2P and F2P.

(I greatly prefer P2P)

SoE does something very different from both P2P and F2P.

 

Their games are called F2P, but they include:

-$15 monthly P2P subscriptions within the same game to unlock levels / classes / abilities

-the buying of expansions

-cash shop

 

So what SoE does is combine a cash shop with F2P, and with P2P.

 

Tell me again why this company is still in business.

 

So you are complaining that a company allows you to forgo the limitations of a F2P game, by purchasing the same subscription you previously purchased?

I was irked when I learned originally that EQ / EQ2 had race / class restrictions - but that has recently changed. No doubt they made the change well after the F2P conversion, but they still did make a change.

For $15/m you get everything unlocked PLUS you get station cash to purchase other "fluff" items from the cash shop.

If you greatly prefer P2P as you say, just pay the $15/m and enjoy the game fully uninhibited and also enjoy the "free" station cash they toss your way for LOYALTY.

This company is still in business because it has a great F2P / P2P hybrid model. I don't understand why you feel so entitled to be able to access 100% of a game that someone spent millions of dollars creating for free. 

I also cringe essentially every time I see a post from you, they are probably some of the least informed and fluff filled posts I see in most forums. Do you post just to get a higher post count?

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3675

7/17/13 8:17:59 AM#63

Heres how I look at my SOE transactions over the years:

EQ 2000-05   P2P model    Spent around 1500 dollars with sub and expansions

EQ2   2005-06    P2P model   Spent about 200 dollars

EQ1 and 2    2012-today      f2p model      havent spent a dime and still play

 

Now which of those do you think I prefer? Also once yo ustopped paying when its p2p you have nothing to show for it...I can take as long of breaks as I want as a f2p and when I return everything is still in place.....Really I have nop idea why people think the p2p model is better unless they work for SOE.

 

 

  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1954

7/17/13 8:18:41 AM#64
Originally posted by Waterlily

While people argue about P2P and F2P.

(I greatly prefer P2P)

SoE does something very different from both P2P and F2P.

 

Their games are called F2P, but they include:

-$15 monthly P2P subscriptions within the same game to unlock levels / classes / abilities

-the buying of expansions

-cash shop

 

So what SoE does is combine a cash shop with F2P, and with P2P.

 

Tell me again why this company is still in business.

More dishonest than SWTOR and AOC model? i don't think so.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  User Deleted
7/17/13 9:03:31 AM#65
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Waterlily

While people argue about P2P and F2P.

(I greatly prefer P2P)

SoE does something very different from both P2P and F2P.

 

Their games are called F2P, but they include:

-$15 monthly P2P subscriptions within the same game to unlock levels / classes / abilities

-the buying of expansions

-cash shop

 

So what SoE does is combine a cash shop with F2P, and with P2P.

 

Tell me again why this company is still in business.

More dishonest than SWTOR and AOC model? i don't think so.

It's actually one of the better ones. Used to be quite bad back when there were so many restrictions on F2P but when they loosened them up and then added in the kronos system which basically is EVE's plex system... in a F2P game... which also gives you for subbing free station cash... which is actually free because you bought kronos for in-game cash. Compared to this the 2nd best is PWI's system in NWO and STO, granted both games are overmonetized but the monetization system (the ability to purchase zen points for dilithium/astral crystals) is good, almost as good as SOE's system.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5698

7/17/13 10:16:58 AM#66

The model SOE is using has become the standard industry model. It started as the Turbine model, and you are seeing it everywhere now. Turbines was possibly the best version, but that may have been because they used it on DDO and Lotro which were P2P MMO's originally.

The combination of cashshop and subscriptions was a marketing dream and now it is a reality. Now all we need are in game adverts to put icing on the cake.

I have talked before about how P2P and F2P are merging as a financial model, it is only the need to pay in a P2P MMO that stands between them now. What players need to understand is that this is not about P2P and F2P in gaming companies eyes. It is about what makes the most money. The days of the old MMO gaming pioneers died years ago, and now gaming ethos has been flushed down the toilet.

My best advice, get yourself a good guild and do your own thing, because what's on offer is a B2W joke.

  Torval

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6996

7/17/13 10:21:26 AM#67

It's not the worst model in my opinion, at least as it relates to EQ2, Dragon's Prophet, or Free Realms.  I do think they double dip in EQ2 as they charge for xpacs and then charge you to unlock the best gear that drops from the xpacs.  They also like to lock and gate features (AA slider) behind the paywall and I don't like that.

I think Tera, Rift, and GW2 have the best payment and cash shop models.

No one has as many friends as a man with many cheeses!

  User Deleted
7/17/13 10:23:11 AM#68
Originally posted by Scot

The model SOE is using has become the standard industry model. It started as the Turbine model, and you are seeing it everywhere now. Turbines was possibly the best version, but that may have been because they used it on DDO and Lotro which were P2P MMO's originally.

The combination of cashshop and subscriptions was a marketing dream and now it is a reality. Now all we need are in game adverts to put icing on the cake.

I have talked before about how P2P and F2P are merging as a financial model, it is only the need to pay in a P2P MMO that stands between them now. What players need to understand is that this is not about P2P and F2P in gaming companies eyes. It is about what makes the most money. The days of the old MMO gaming pioneers died years ago, and now gaming ethos has been flushed down the toilet.

My best advice, get yourself a good guild and do your own thing, because what's on offer is a B2W joke.

How I think Scott sees the gaming industry today:

  User Deleted
7/17/13 10:23:52 AM#69
Originally posted by TribeofOne
Originally posted by William12
....

Also you implied you don't get past expansions with EQ,EQ2 that is not true.  The 40$ charge gives you all 19 of them and when a new one comes out that 40$ will get you all 20. Now hey if you already have 19 it doesn't seem like a great deal, but it is for new players.  In wow catching up there is a barrier in EQ there is not. 

Oh and you can use Tier 1 Raid gear from the latest expansion with F2P.

you are wrong. EQ2 Chains of Eternity latest expac  standard edition $40 https://www.everquest2.com/expansions  now read the fine print at the very bottom "*The Age of Discovery expansion is required to use this item." < which is also $40 does include previous pacs.

The item it is talking about specifically is the Mercenary included in the Collectors Edition pack. You do not need Age of Discovery at all to play all the Chains of Eternity content. Age of Discovery is a feature pack that unlocks Beastlords, Reforging, Dungeon Maker and Mercenaries.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

7/17/13 12:46:01 PM#70
Originally posted by Scot

The model SOE is using has become the standard industry model. It started as the Turbine model, and you are seeing it everywhere now. Turbines was possibly the best version, but that may have been because they used it on DDO and Lotro which were P2P MMO's originally.

The combination of cashshop and subscriptions was a marketing dream and now it is a reality. Now all we need are in game adverts to put icing on the cake.

I have talked before about how P2P and F2P are merging as a financial model, it is only the need to pay in a P2P MMO that stands between them now. What players need to understand is that this is not about P2P and F2P in gaming companies eyes. It is about what makes the most money. The days of the old MMO gaming pioneers died years ago, and now gaming ethos has been flushed down the toilet.

My best advice, get yourself a good guild and do your own thing, because what's on offer is a B2W joke.

As long as part of the game is free, it is free to me.

Of course it is about making money for the devs. It is the same for any entertainment industry. You don't think Marvel makes The Avenger just because it is cool (although it also is)?

So what if devs want to make money? If the by-product is fun free games, i will call that a good thing.

  nakki

Novice Member

Joined: 4/01/04
Posts: 56

7/17/13 1:49:14 PM#71

I don't really have bad things to say about SoE. That company is exactly what mmorpgs needs right now. They have huge budgets behind their games, they are willing to take risks, and they don't fuck around with their customers. Atleast that's my experience with the company.

However my experience is limited to planetside 2 f2p model only and IMO it's one of the best f2p models out there for people who don't want to pay a dime, but I guess I can see that those who are used to paying money in f2p games, SoE doesn't exactly make it cheap for them.

  Attend4455

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 166

7/17/13 2:29:39 PM#72
Originally posted by dejoblue

Sorry, Blizzard wins here again. They are introducing XP potions and loot coins for sale in Asia and may bring them to the US, they are testing them out first. Like SOE does.

 

Blizzard is also going to sell appearance items, like SOE does, starting with helms, among other things. Last I checked Blizzard charges $15 per month, requires a base game purchase and IIRC requires 2 expansions purchases to get up to date.

The entire industry is moving this way with DLC being the first push. Once XBOXONE and PS4 have full streaming available I expect to see a LOT more f2p games pop up on that platform.

 

so what you are saying is .. Free to Play is not exactly Free to Play? or did I miss some subtle point in your post?

I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone

  Grixxitt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/12
Posts: 558

7/17/13 2:31:18 PM#73

SOE has to have the cheapest F2P model in existence, especially when you factor in the 2x and 3x station cash days that they regularly have.  (I still have about 70$ on my account from spending 45 bucks on a 3x station cash day 6+ months ago.)

The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

-The MMO Forum Community

  Hrimnir

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1607

7/18/13 1:11:11 AM#74
 
 
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Hrimnir

Its a combination of two things.

1. (some) people posess this thing called self control, and are able to make concious decisions to participate or not participate in said cash shops.

2. Jobs.  This is where you work, and you get paid for the work you do.  They then give you something called money, which you spend on things like food, clothes, housing, entertainment, etc.  Fora healthy portion of people with jobs, $15/mo really isnt a lot of money.  So they dont consider these payment models to be some kind of scam, etc, like some of the people on here do.

 

Here is a list of things that cost more than an MMO subscription:

Movie Theater Ticket

1 weeks worth of gasoline

Dinner at just about any restaurant anywhere

A large pizza

A non name brand, walmart t-shirt

Etc

 

It is not about whether one can afford it. It is about the free alternatives.

When i go out with my wife, any decent date dinner is $100 or more, and special occasion is more like $200-300.

So $15 is not a lot. Heck, a hot toy Avenger figure (which i collect) costs $200+. However, if i can get the same amount of fun for free, why would I even want to pay $15? I won't even pay $5 (which i drop without a second thought on iOS games).

It is the competition, and perception of values. Very seldom is about affordability.

In reality its about human psychology.  The problem is when you start throwing the idea of "free" around, people turn the stupid switch on in their brains.   Humans have been shown that if you give them the option between a "free" option and a high value option, they will almost overwhelmingly choose the free option.

For example, hershey corporation did an experiment, they ran two tests.  In the first you could buy a hershey kiss for 1cent, or a ferrero rocher candy for 26cents, it ended up being about a 50/50 split.  In the second test they made the hershey kiss free, and the rocher 25cent.  All of a sudden over 90% of the people chose the free hershey kiss over the rocher.

Its 1 penny. What this showed is that psychologically the decision to spend money is the important one.  How much is spent is not as important as the actual decision to spend money.  This is why the F2P model is popular is because of the PERCEPTION that it is free.  The reality is that people end up spending MORE ($27/mo on average) than they would on a subscription based game.

 

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Waterlily

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 3014

 
OP  7/18/13 5:47:02 AM#75
-
  Waterlily

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 3014

 
OP  7/18/13 5:48:05 AM#76
Originally posted by Tinybina

 

 

You obviously haven't played any recent SOE MMO's.

 

Lets take Planetside 2 for example.  Their most RECENT MMO.

 

Go ahead and buy that subscription and see what that gets you. 

With your 15 bucks a month sub you will get a xp bonus, cert bonus and a huge 500 station cash a month!

With that 500 Station cash a month you will be able to buy yourself 1 cammo or half a gun or half a helmet or half a weapon for your vehicle.   I guess you can buy the other half the next month right?...

 

 

Now SOE is going against their word and introducing items that will make you stronger in game, with implants.  This is something they said they never would do.  They said something about stuff that you can buy will always be a sidegrades not upgrades.  But implants are upgrades and while you probably will be able to attain them for free ingame for days apon days of grinding.  Someone can just purchase them instantly while you grind and grind and grind and grind, only to have a small percent of what they bought 7 days ago.  Pay 2 win anyone?

 

I know they have to make their money,  But they are jacking up prices on everything now.  Guns started out costing like 5 bucks.  Now they have a twenty dollar gun...  They are just getting greedy now.

 

This F2P cash shop is a horrible idea and one that is costing us gamers to much money.  People do not understand that it is only going to get worse and worse for us gamers...

 

 

Yep, people act as if the P2P option suddenly gives you an actual P2P game. No, it gives you a P2P game with cash shop.

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 2112

7/20/13 6:35:19 AM#77
Originally posted by maplestone

The problems plaguing the game industry right now arise from the cash shop (and the monitization analytics which follow), not the barrier to logging in.

Agree. 4€ there, 8€ there ... have just discovered when putting numbers in spreadsheet that I have spent about 100€ for 2 games and cash shops in last month to two! I'm stopping now. I did not realize as usually there are small numbers but with many of them ... .one even does not realize how much have spent.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5698

7/20/13 8:09:56 AM#78
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Scot

The model SOE is using has become the standard industry model. It started as the Turbine model, and you are seeing it everywhere now. Turbines was possibly the best version, but that may have been because they used it on DDO and Lotro which were P2P MMO's originally.

The combination of cashshop and subscriptions was a marketing dream and now it is a reality. Now all we need are in game adverts to put icing on the cake.

I have talked before about how P2P and F2P are merging as a financial model, it is only the need to pay in a P2P MMO that stands between them now. What players need to understand is that this is not about P2P and F2P in gaming companies eyes. It is about what makes the most money. The days of the old MMO gaming pioneers died years ago, and now gaming ethos has been flushed down the toilet.

My best advice, get yourself a good guild and do your own thing, because what's on offer is a B2W joke.

How I think Scott sees the gaming industry today:

I try to keep calm, but you need to let slip the dogs of war every now and then. :D

  Giddian

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/03/06
Posts: 431

7/20/13 8:13:34 AM#79
Originally posted by Waterlily

While people argue about P2P and F2P.

(I greatly prefer P2P)

SoE does something very different from both P2P and F2P.

 

Their games are called F2P, but they include:

-$15 monthly P2P subscriptions within the same game to unlock levels / classes / abilities

-the buying of expansions

-cash shop

 

So what SoE does is combine a cash shop with F2P, and with P2P.

 

Tell me again why this company is still in business.

 Agree 100%

It stays in Business because of fans of EQ series. I believe if the series was run by a Different company, It would be SO much better. BUT that's My Opinion.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

7/21/13 9:00:56 AM#80
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 
 The reality is that people end up spending MORE ($27/mo on average) than they would on a subscription based game.
 

Nope. Data shows that reality is that most people don't pay a cent, and a small percentage of whales pays through their nose (or nozzle?).

Personally it works for me. F2P games are free to  me.

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