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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: The Death of Hardcore

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82 posts found
  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2650

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

7/19/13 6:37:27 PM#21

Honestly, the more 'hardcore' I feel would be fine with change, the problem is most of the change is for the worst. Having players having access to everything RUINS that sense of progression and rewards both HARDCORE AND CASUAL players want. Sure, you might not experience something being a casual, but knowing you are making progress is what fuels a players desire to continue. They want more and more to achieve yet games are making it more and more of a joke. You get no real sense of accomplishment. 

 

Right now, games are falling far to hard on making everything trivial. That 'progression' element is what fuels players desire to play and experience the game. Without it, it only lowers the chances players, casual and hardcore alike, will continue to play the game and work towards it.

 

I am pretty avid that as much as some casuals cry and moan about wanting to do everything, they really don't know what is best for themselves. That mentality is the big reason why they don't tend to stay around in games long, or if they do its often relying on "Alt leveling" or other details rather then dedicating to a main character since to them its just trivialized and not worth the effort.

 

My EX was NOT a raider in WoW, she pretty much played for fun. When I hear she is playing WoW again and is BORED with having all the content in easy access for her, it kind of shows just how handing everything to the player just makes the casuals just as bored as even the hardcore ones.

  Jagarid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/09
Posts: 413

“Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.”

7/19/13 7:30:26 PM#22

Wow, I saw the headline for this and thought for sure that the truth would be missed in the article.  But it was not.

"It's too bad so many of them have become slaves to their old rose-colored memories."

^ Truth. ^

I'm one of the grandpas, but I am no slave and it bothers me how many are. 

  Perjure

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 143

7/19/13 8:34:36 PM#23
I too am one of those Grandpas - I still play MMORPG's daily. I enjoy them for what they are - a distraction. Do I miss the old days? Heck yeah I do. Could I and would I devote the 16 plus hours a day to a game now? No way.  I miss having to make my own maps and track coordinates. Discover pretty much everything for myself - it was awesome. I cringe when I hear the words "hardcore"  combined with words like "raiding, quests, and endgame"  - those words to me mean the beginning of the end of hardcore. The OP is correct - Hardcore is dead.
  rojo6934

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 4546

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

7/19/13 9:49:34 PM#24
GW2 did the first step towards hardcore (within the themepark scene) by removing the babies hand holding trinity from group content. The so called hardcore couldnt handle the pressure..... i guess theres no such thing as hardcore mmorpgs anymore. Its just a term these guys use to feel good with themselves nowadays.
 

"in peace, in sleep under the barren, abandoned soil"

  User Deleted
7/19/13 10:33:27 PM#25
Originally posted by Arclan

If accessibility defines success, and today's games are the pinnacle of accessibility, why are they failing?

Because that's the nature of the video game industry, and it's been that way for a long time. Around 8 out of 10 games will fail to be financially successful, regardless of genre. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_failures_in_video_gaming#cite_note-2

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/11/24/study-just-4-of-games-making-a-profit/

 

 

  killahh

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 449

As famous as the unknown soldier

7/19/13 11:54:51 PM#26
I am sorry but OP, you missed the target, and you don't even know it.

How sad.

Rose colored glasses, you bet, i do remember a time it took dedication to become great in a mmorpg, and guess what?

It was totally worth it.

Become a feared killer? Known server wide or even across servers, a reputation worth something.
I sold my UO account for 800.00US when I quit UO after it went disco, someone apperantly wanted that reputation.

In Eq, when you got your epic at the beginning, it was amazing, a cleric with his epic, was a damn good cleric, bexause in order to get his epic he needed tons of friends, and that ment you needed to be great and have a great rep.

The real problem is that everyone wanted that reputation and greatness, but, though laziness, stupidity, or lack of dedication, could not achieve it.

Then along came wow, where everyman could be great. Huge success.

I'm not bitter, i. Played wow even for a few years, but I can also say it was by far the easiest game I ever played. Without hardly trying I believe came dripping in purple, riding the dragon mount, gottired and quit.

You see, it's all about the achievement factor in games, that's why we play them. You make something hard to get, when you get it its the. Most awsome thing ever. You make it easy to get, it's treated like garbage. It's like spoiling children, give them everything they want, and they get a skewed vision if how life works.

And that's what's happened in RL and mmorpg nowdays, your all spoiled, you can have everything you have ever wanted in games, and your left feeling hollow.

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3541

7/20/13 12:03:06 AM#27
I'm hoping EQN returns to its hardcore roots but I get the feeling its just another soft toss MMO like all the others since WoW......
  Ayulin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 344

7/20/13 12:48:03 AM#28
Originally posted by Arclan

If accessibility defines success, and today's games are the pinnacle of accessibility, why are they failing?


Oh, I don't know....

Maybe because while accessibility is important, it's not the only thing that keeps people playing a game, and many other MMOs that have attempted to mimic WoW's "appeal" have missed the mark? Maybe because if people are going to play something like WoW, they'd be better off playing the real thing, rather than settling for an inferior clone?

 

Accessibility alone did not determine the success of WoW (nor any MMO for that matter).

 

Advertising and an IP with a huge built-in fanbase, eager to play the next Warcraft game, got people in. That didn't guarantee its long-term success, though.

 

Accessibility and a more streamlined experience made it easier and arguably more fun to get into and play. But that didn't guarantee its long-term success.

 

A fun, solid, engaging, well-designed and highly polished experience is what keeps them there for the long-haul.

 

A community of friends, family, guild-mates and in-game acquaintances is what helps keep many people there... even beyond when the game itself has lost its spark for them.

 

Once the "phenomenon" hit, and the game became a "household name", it took on its own momentum, which has carried it to this day.

 

At the end of the day, though, you could have a stellar marketing department with the best in the industry pulling out all their best tricks. If the product they're selling is crap, it's not going to matter how well-marketed it was.

 
 
  npTrombe

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/12
Posts: 7

7/20/13 1:13:18 AM#29
The Hardcores didn't really die out they just evolved and turned into No-lifers.
  Panzerbase

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 309

7/20/13 1:25:12 AM#30
So basically the OP claims mediocrity is the new standard and well deserved. Golf clap..
  GameByNight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/08/09
Posts: 67

7/20/13 1:40:17 AM#31
Originally posted by killahh
I am sorry but OP, you missed the target, and you don't even know it.

How sad.

Rose colored glasses, you bet, i do remember a time it took dedication to become great in a mmorpg, and guess what?

It was totally worth it.
Originally posted by Panzerbase
So basically the OP claims mediocrity is the new standard and well deserved. Golf clap..

 

You both missed the point entirely. To quote the article you're commenting on: "But those players do have something of value: real experience with designs of depth. Games today, in the name of accessibility, have become eminently more shallow. Players working together, mysterious virtual worlds, real adventure, and the ultimate payoff of delayed gratification... those are things this genre now fails at."

 

My point is that the genre has evolved, not whether it is better or worse. Considering I was one of that early generation, and the entire point of view and numerous reiterations within the column, you might surmise that there are old designs I would love to see return. I guess the big difference is that I, like most commenters here, have learned to adapt and keep having fun with MMOs. Coming out swinging like that really doesn't help either of your cases that you're not bitter.

 
 

Writer of The Tourist, Tripping the Rift, and co-writer of Player Versus Player
Host of Game On: ESP Edition
Blogger at GameByNight.com

  Dreycraft

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 56

"Oh, so they have Internet on computers now!"

7/20/13 1:56:19 AM#32
I started playing mmorpgs back in '99 with EQ like a lot of people, and although there are a lot of things I do miss about old school mmorpgs, there are even more aspects that I don't. It just gets old people constantly ripping into WoW, it did a lot of good things for the genre and gave me the most fun years with my friends playing it. But I will agree that part of it's legacy is a curse on the genre because too many developers crave the same success of WoW so they develop a game too similar to it. It's natural though and no one should be surprised by this, it'd just be better if we would get a totally unique game each time a new mmorpg comes out.
  General-Zod

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 431

Kneel.

7/20/13 2:02:30 AM#33
Originally posted by Jagarid

Wow, I saw the headline for this and thought for sure that the truth would be missed in the article.  But it was not.

"It's too bad so many of them have become slaves to their old rose-colored memories."

^ Truth. ^

I'm one of the grandpas, but I am no slave and it bothers me how many are. 

Its very hard not to succumb to rose-colored memories...

I met a girl who cooked, cleaned and held deep engaging conversations for many hours.

After 2004, all I could meet were these cosmetically enhanced shallow bitches that I could figure out before I finished my drink.

Iv already accepted that I can never go back to my first love..... grudgingly.

  Nephelai

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/29/13
Posts: 132

7/20/13 3:41:45 AM#34

The issue really is the definition of hard core. I think people confuse player ability and time sync. Players in Method for example are great players and in fact they sync less time into killing the heroic content than the average Wow gamer puts into doing normals or LFR. Its the mass of average players chipping away with their aspirations confused with their abilities syncing there life into MMO's that are the problem.

 

To me hardcore means great player not your ability to sync time into a game so hardcore is still around from that perspective.

 

What have they replaced the time sync with anyway? Instead of a few things taking a very long time we now have lots of simple things taking very little time each that must be repeated at infinitum.

 

I'd go back any day.

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 1754

7/20/13 4:55:17 AM#35

Great column, I agree. "I'm here to break the news: the hardcore playstyle is dead."  Ok, maybe not entirely dead, there's always chance for some indie kickstarter project here and there, but practically yep, it's dead. And it wasn't killed by evil developers, or the money-greeding industry, simply that's the direction the masses longed for. OP's right that's everything is in numbers, as more and more people stepped in and the market widened, they brought new preferences with themselves which the industry followed to make money and staying afloat.

Nowadays wanting back those mechanics and lifestyles ("not playstyles but lifestyles" is a great line, Chris :) ) is like wanting back the 1 single phone in the house, with a one-meter cord attached to the wall - in the era of mobility and smartphones. Outdated, sadly.

 

Don't get me wrong, I also started with MUDs, and with the truckload of free time and unlimited net access (which wasn't a common thing even in colleges / universites around here in the early/mid '90s, so there was the "being privileged" feel to it as well) I wasted a pretty decent amount of time online during my college years. But as Vyce wrote so accurately:

Originally posted by Vyce
Do I miss the old days? Heck yeah I do. Could I and would I devote the 16 plus hours a day to a game now? No way. 

And even if we (all) would do that, again, numbers. All of those '95-'03 players combined are only a small minority now among the widespreaded playerbase. And the future holds more decline in the matter, with better quality browser and mobile games, and with the consoles... As a kid said to me not long ago: "why wasting my time on download or install when I can play games in my browser, from anywhere?" The sad thing is, he's right.

 

I guess the process will going foward to more accessible, more casual games. Back in the Dungeon Master / EoB days we mapped dungeons manually (I still have a few of those exercise-books). Then came "press M". Then the quest markings, with direction arrows. Then the auto-path. Each of those reached more and more people. This won't stop just because a few old ones have nostalgic feelings about how hard and time-consuming was the life back then :)

on better thinking it's sad, so :( would be more appropriate.

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 477

7/20/13 5:56:05 AM#36
Originally posted by Po_gg

Great column, I agree. "I'm here to break the news: the hardcore playstyle is dead."  Ok, maybe not entirely dead, there's always chance for some indie kickstarter project here and there, but practically yep, it's dead. And it wasn't killed by evil developers, or the money-greeding industry, simply that's the direction the masses longed for.

Have you ever stopped to consider that 'hardcore' just isn't sustainable?

Lot of folks went broke in the hourly-rates era, and Evercrack made a lot more of them jobless.

Seems like it's basically a bad idea, doesn't it? "All of our most intense, addictive-personality players; we (and their guildmasters) are going to ruin their lives. This sounds like a really sensible plan!". Everyone knows the horror stories, some even true, of the borderline personalities that went way over the top with their pursuit of 'hardcoreness'.

Shovel some dirt on that grave. And count your blessings that you weren't among the lost and discarded.

  nttajira

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/06
Posts: 348

7/20/13 6:37:58 AM#37

plz read me because you can get many good points by doing so , my english not great .

im seriously TIRED of reading bullshit article about dev , this website , game designer ect or anyone who say crap that make zero sence .

wow was good because it was a good game , nothing else

for get a mmorpg to work , you need stuft for make you come back , log back again ect , for exemple i know someone who still play wow ( used to know 20 but whatever ) now 1 people i know play and he was talking to me about how they added ''a farm'' when you grow plants and stuft like that , got cat , ect and you need plants them in the morning and come back 12 hour later , many skill can be used each 24 h , you need log back , daily are a need to come back each day too ,

so tell me op , that a damn WORK no ?? but people love it . wow work because they have make the seconds job look like not a second job nothing else . 

game after wow realy did not get it , because they make game with no gears progression ,

go to max level even faster ..... and all instanced everywhere .

for exemple many people in gw2 are not that happy when they reach end game and they say ''we got nothing to do''  , they would be totaly happy with real gears progression , skill training or something who realy improve your character . matter a fact , many people stoped guild war 2 .... ( you can claims what you want but that true )

also dev are not understanding why their new crap game alway fails after 2-3 months into releases , strangely people got to end level in 1 months and got nothing to do ( yeah the mmorpg are not hardcore and that what the op of this articles say ... but the wow kiddy go to endgame realy fast , do everything and are bored , they are clearly casual gamer for reach endgame in 1 week playing 8-10 hour a day ....

GET REAL , THE OLDER CROW GOT WAY MORE CASUAL GAMER THAT THE NEW GEN GAMER .... we are all 25-35 year and got no time to play ..... 

the older crow want old school mmorpg , the wow kiddy ( like you call them ) want hard game , game where reaching endgame take alot of time , where you got stuft to do ect , where your character mean something and sorry to say but

THAT ALSO OLDS SCHOOL MMORPG GAME with new gen graphic .

you can try to be creative ( so far how your game work DEV ?? 2 months then into f2p ?? )

you can try pass the lie that f2p are the future because you just fail one time after other ,

but the reality here , release a old school mmorpg + new gen features and graphic

( dont mean frustration you get the essence for them , the good stuft .... )

and you will got your ''wow killer''  , do FPS game are trying to make a new genre ??

do racing game are trying to make new stuft ?? 

they all RELEASE THE SAME OVER AND OVER , and people love it , when im playing a fps i want a fps .

GOD DAMN IM TIRED ... i should make a fucking game , hire me im going make you a wow killer ,  that not hard to see what your crow want and that would be easy please everyone....

you can go look at final fantasy 14 for get a game who do stuft right , but in my mind they are only doing about 60 % right , but people clearly get the old school fealing playing this game...

well maybe they got it more that i think ''they make the raid realy hard and they say in interview it will just ''kill the player right away'' 

( ps dev ... the wow kiddy love hard raid like in wow , NOT RAID WHERE easy mode where you can drink a coke and eat chips at the same time ... , but yeah make the start of the game casual and not that hard ... when they decide to do something they make everything hard or everything easy... try both ...

but whatever ,FOR FINAL FANTASY 14 this website and many other will try to bring this game down  before it even begin because they are japanesse , pay no money , the f2p title will do everything they can for make a p2p game in 2013 fails 

sony online would look realy stupid if a p2p game get a huge sucess in 2013....

whatever im sick and tired how this world dirty ... 

im japanesse living canada , 170 IQ . keep going dev

 

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1565

7/20/13 6:38:32 AM#38
Once there were dinosaurs ruling the world .... the rest is history. :-)) Things happen in time.
  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2706

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

7/20/13 7:03:34 AM#39
I disagree that it is "dead", just not as lucrative as a more casual gaming experience.  In a sense, I doubt we will see a game that requires player's time like in the old days, but that does not mean there are not lots of players that still desire that style of gameplay.  Just not near as many as the casual players.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Artiss2k

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/08
Posts: 3

7/20/13 8:00:55 AM#40
CCP dont fail us now, I'm hoping World of Darkness fills that hardcore void for us.

Every man is responsible for his own destiny.

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