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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Religious and LGBT Guilds, Yay or Nay?

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352 posts found
  spankybus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/20/05
Posts: 1150

"Don''t touch that squirrel''s nuts!" - Willy Wonka

7/19/13 7:30:44 PM#301
Originally posted by Four0Six

I am fine with it.

As long as ALL of it is tolerated. If you get the LGBT, you get the Religious too, no picksies, no choosies.

Agreed....But you'd also have to let the Ku Klux Klan and the Neo Nazi's form their own themed guilds. As a previous poster suggested, perhaps its best to just leave the social issues at the door, so to speak, and just play the game.

 

This is a slippery slope. Of course, I am an American who believed in freedom....TRUE freedom...meaning that ALL groups have a right to express their views, not matter how much it might piss me off. I just don't want them doing it in a video game that I might be playing with my son.

Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
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-Professional Amature

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1779

May the game be ever in your favor.

7/19/13 8:17:39 PM#302
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by denshing
Originally posted by Razeekster

As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay." That and having to hear "faggot" constantly is not something I enjoy. It happens more than you'd think. I've already dealt with stupid gamers in games telling me that I could like girls if I wanted to. Just read the blog article that I wrote on gamers and the social issues that are within games and then read the comments. Most of them are insulting and I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw them because my article didn't just wholly focus on the issue of homophobic players within games yet that is what most people focused on in the comments.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Razeekster/062013/25241_Why-I-think-developers-gamers-are-some-of-the-worst-people-around

 

So yeah, I don't mind these types of guilds. They are there to make the unwelcome feel welcome.

That's too bad. Homophobia fuels the need to isolate yourself into a segmented community, and your need to segment yourself into an isolated community further creates a contrast between your orientation and their own, increasing awareness and fueling more intolerance.

It's a vicious cycle.

Hey, I know straight people that aren't homophobic in games too but for some odd reason I've found that more MMO gamers are homophobic than non-MMO players. Maybe I've just had bad luck, but it's one of the reasons why I ignore most of the straight population in online games. I just don't see the need to put myself through that sort of humiliation.

Actually, I have had the opposite experience, specifically in Mabinogi. Though, that was a long time ago. Don't play anymore. Also, I am transgender so it's a tad different I guess. I think I only ran into one person who really didn't agree with who I was, and essentially we just never spoke again. I also do not usually say anything regarding that I am transgender unless it is some how brought up or asked.

As for the people who disagree with me, I never really cared all that much anyway. I tend to respect their views as much as I possibly can. The only time I get offended is if they try and shove what they believe down my throat and do not let it go.

Mabinogi is actually one of my favorite games because of this. I have been playing Mabinogi for about 4 years now. As immature as the community is in that game they are quite mature in that regard. 

Smile

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9937

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

 
OP  7/19/13 8:23:42 PM#303


Originally posted by spankybus

Originally posted by Four0Six I am fine with it. As long as ALL of it is tolerated. If you get the LGBT, you get the Religious too, no picksies, no choosies.
Agreed....But you'd also have to let the Ku Klux Klan and the Neo Nazi's form their own themed guilds. As a previous poster suggested, perhaps its best to just leave the social issues at the door, so to speak, and just play the game.

 

This is a slippery slope. Of course, I am an American who believed in freedom....TRUE freedom...meaning that ALL groups have a right to express their views, not matter how much it might piss me off. I just don't want them doing it in a video game that I might be playing with my son.




Well sure. So long as the other guilds didn't exclude members based on religion, or sexual orientation. I'm reasonably sure that a KKK guild or a Neo Nazi* guild wouldn't be capable of doing that. So no, you probably wouldn't have to allow a KKK or Neo Nazi guild. Not even to prove a point.

**

Keep in mind that MMORPG are private clubs, not public venues. Blizzard is under no obligation to allow LBGT guilds. They did it because their clientele wanted it.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1779

May the game be ever in your favor.

7/19/13 8:30:48 PM#304
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Razeekster

As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."

Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.

 

No kidding

 

Razeekster should look up the definition of  "dumb" and then maybe apologize to a part of society that isn't as fortunate in some aspects.

Pot meet Kettle

Excuse me? Last time I checked "gay" didn't mean dumb so I don't know how this is a case of "pot meet kettle." Gay originally meant joyous, happy, exuberant. I am not sure how it was turned into a word to represent a sexual orientation but no matter what it never meant "dumb." So don't tell me to apologize.

Smile

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11356

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

7/19/13 8:34:12 PM#305
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Razeekster

As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."

Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.

 

No kidding

Razeekster should look up the definition of  "dumb" and then maybe apologize to a part of society that isn't as fortunate in some aspects.

Pot meet Kettle

Excuse me? Last time I checked "gay" didn't mean dumb so I don't know how this is a case of "pot meet kettle." Gay originally meant joyous, happy, exuberant. I am not sure how it was turned into a word to represent a sexual orientation but no matter what it never meant "dumb." So don't tell me to apologize.

You probably would have understood had you looked up the definition of "dumb".

 

Have a great weekend, all!

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9937

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

 
OP  7/19/13 9:05:43 PM#306


Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by laserit

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Razeekster As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."
Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.  
No kidding   Razeekster should look up the definition of  "dumb" and then maybe apologize to a part of society that isn't as fortunate in some aspects. Pot meet Kettle
Excuse me? Last time I checked "gay" didn't mean dumb so I don't know how this is a case of "pot meet kettle." Gay originally meant joyous, happy, exuberant. I am not sure how it was turned into a word to represent a sexual orientation but no matter what it never meant "dumb." So don't tell me to apologize.



This is kind of like the discussions on what the term "MMO" means. It didn't used to have a recognized meaning, now it does. It has a definition and everything. Words change meaning depending on how people use them. That's how it happens, people start using words in a different way, or start using new words, and other people pick them up and then that's what the words mean. There's a whole science devoted to how this happens in language and how long it takes for it to happen with specific words.

"Gay" happens to be a word that the younger among us have decided means, "lame" or "dumb". It's a general purpose term. Yes, it's dumb. No, it's not allowed in my house and I'm relieved that all our children have grown out of it, but that doesn't change the fact that in ten years it may be a common term meaning "lame" or "dumb".

I'm not sure what my point is here, other than words just change. Getting angry about it, even when the words are offensive, deliberately or not isn't really going to stop this from happening. Especially when the people changing the language have no idea what kind of history the words they use have.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1779

May the game be ever in your favor.

7/19/13 9:06:50 PM#307
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Razeekster
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Razeekster

As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."

Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.

 

No kidding

Razeekster should look up the definition of  "dumb" and then maybe apologize to a part of society that isn't as fortunate in some aspects.

Pot meet Kettle

Excuse me? Last time I checked "gay" didn't mean dumb so I don't know how this is a case of "pot meet kettle." Gay originally meant joyous, happy, exuberant. I am not sure how it was turned into a word to represent a sexual orientation but no matter what it never meant "dumb." So don't tell me to apologize.

You probably would have understood had you looked up the definition of "dumb".

 

Have a great weekend, all!

"Dumb:

Adjective: (of a person) Unable to speak, most typically because of congenital deafness.

 

Verb: Simplify or reduce the intellectual content of something so as to make it accessible to a larger number of people.

 

Synonyms: mute - speechless - silent - voiceless - inarticulate"

 

I fail to see how this is a case of "Pot meet kettle." I never insulted anyone. I simply said that "gay" does not mean "dumb." Which is 100% true. So again, I don't see why I would have to apologize. 

 

 

Smile

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1779

May the game be ever in your favor.

7/19/13 9:10:30 PM#308
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by laserit

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Razeekster As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."
Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.  
No kidding   Razeekster should look up the definition of  "dumb" and then maybe apologize to a part of society that isn't as fortunate in some aspects. Pot meet Kettle
Excuse me? Last time I checked "gay" didn't mean dumb so I don't know how this is a case of "pot meet kettle." Gay originally meant joyous, happy, exuberant. I am not sure how it was turned into a word to represent a sexual orientation but no matter what it never meant "dumb." So don't tell me to apologize.


This is kind of like the discussions on what the term "MMO" means. It didn't used to have a recognized meaning, now it does. It has a definition and everything. Words change meaning depending on how people use them. That's how it happens, people start using words in a different way, or start using new words, and other people pick them up and then that's what the words mean. There's a whole science devoted to how this happens in language and how long it takes for it to happen with specific words.

"Gay" happens to be a word that the younger among us have decided means, "lame" or "dumb". It's a general purpose term. Yes, it's dumb. No, it's not allowed in my house and I'm relieved that all our children have grown out of it, but that doesn't change the fact that in ten years it may be a common term meaning "lame" or "dumb".

I'm not sure what my point is here, other than words just change. Getting angry about it, even when the words are offensive, deliberately or not isn't really going to stop this from happening. Especially when the people changing the language have no idea what kind of history the words they use have.

 

Most people who use the word wrongly know very well what they are doing and what the word actually means. I realize that a lot of people just do it automatically but please don't tell me that people don't know what they are saying. Most know fully.

Smile

  caremuchless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 594

Whether you believe you can or believe you cannot, you are right.

7/19/13 9:25:27 PM#309
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

1-I can understand Blizzard's stance. It is not unlike MMORPG.com's stance on political and religious posting. It tends to fan the flames of board wars. It is sad that a "special interest group" dictated how a business was run. That is wrong.

2-I guess I just do not understand what makes people want others to know about their sexual, political, or religious choices or preferences. It's a game. Leave that stuff at the log in screen.

3 Remember, Guilds decide who they let in or not. No one should be able to tell Guilds who gets to become members. In one sense it is not unlike PvE, PvP, or RP guild tags. But that is geared more towards game play, not real world likes/dislikes.

1-To the first sentence, whoever made the guild, can do whatever they choose.

"Dictating how a business is run"....really?

If I buy a basketball from Spalding, I can play basketball with whomever I choose. If I choose to call 9 of my friends who are of similar beliefs, that is my business.  

And it's exactly the same in an mmo. If I decide I want a guild made up of my peers, then that's my right. I consider that a first amendment right.

 

2 I dont know why you even mention this as it is not what the thread is about. Sure it's a game and if it's my guild, I can do what I want.

 

3 exactly.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9937

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

 
OP  7/19/13 9:39:07 PM#310


Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by laserit

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Razeekster As a gay gamer LBGTQ guilds are something I look for in games because I am uncomfortable dealing with straight people that are homophobic and constantly misuse the word "dumb," replacing it instead with the word "gay."
Yeah, the nerve of people co-opting words.  
No kidding   Razeekster should look up the definition of  "dumb" and then maybe apologize to a part of society that isn't as fortunate in some aspects. Pot meet Kettle
Excuse me? Last time I checked "gay" didn't mean dumb so I don't know how this is a case of "pot meet kettle." Gay originally meant joyous, happy, exuberant. I am not sure how it was turned into a word to represent a sexual orientation but no matter what it never meant "dumb." So don't tell me to apologize.
This is kind of like the discussions on what the term "MMO" means. It didn't used to have a recognized meaning, now it does. It has a definition and everything. Words change meaning depending on how people use them. That's how it happens, people start using words in a different way, or start using new words, and other people pick them up and then that's what the words mean. There's a whole science devoted to how this happens in language and how long it takes for it to happen with specific words. "Gay" happens to be a word that the younger among us have decided means, "lame" or "dumb". It's a general purpose term. Yes, it's dumb. No, it's not allowed in my house and I'm relieved that all our children have grown out of it, but that doesn't change the fact that in ten years it may be a common term meaning "lame" or "dumb". I'm not sure what my point is here, other than words just change. Getting angry about it, even when the words are offensive, deliberately or not isn't really going to stop this from happening. Especially when the people changing the language have no idea what kind of history the words they use have.  
Most people who use the word wrongly know very well what they are doing and what the word actually means. I realize that a lot of people just do it automatically but please don't tell me that people don't know what they are saying. Most know fully.



I didn't say they were ignorant. They are fully conversant with all the different meanings of the word, "gay". It's difficult to give them a logical train of reasoning as to why they shouldn't use the word "gay" as an insult when their gay friends call their principal "gay", as in lame. The only card I really had left was that they were going to do what I said because it's my house and I said so. I can't do this with the internet though. I can't even do this with my kid's friends. I have to pick my battles.

So, what's my point here, and what does this have to do with themed guilds? I do not know. We've gone off track and it's late. Don't let things like this wind you up. It just gives people an easy target at which to aim. Join a LBGT guild and actually enjoy the games you play instead of getting wound up about things that can't be fixed. Pick your battles, but in the mean time, enjoy the things that can be enjoyed and don't let the d!ckholes of the internet ruin it for you.

I guess. Also, I'm not entirely sure what Loktofelt was getting at earlier, but experience has shown me that they were actually getting at something, and it was probably pretty clever, and I just missed it.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

7/19/13 10:35:09 PM#311
Originally posted by spankybus

This is a slippery slope. Of course, I am an American who believed in freedom....TRUE freedom...meaning that ALL groups have a right to express their views, not matter how much it might piss me off. I just don't want them doing it in a video game that I might be playing with my son.

Jake: "I hate Illinois Nazis." (engine revs)

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5157

Opportunist

7/19/13 10:46:58 PM#312
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by spankybus

This is a slippery slope. Of course, I am an American who believed in freedom....TRUE freedom...meaning that ALL groups have a right to express their views, not matter how much it might piss me off. I just don't want them doing it in a video game that I might be playing with my son.

Jake: "I hate Illinois Nazis." (engine revs)

Sadly, I think this is lost on most.  Better judgement says linking would be bad.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1825

7/19/13 11:41:20 PM#313
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by Cecropia
While I think it's kind of silly to have gay guilds (do we really need to segregate ourselves in video games too?), I don't see any real issue with the idea. Religious guilds on the other hand are completely inappropriate. When you have children playing these games they should never be exposed to these types of groups, that more often than not, judge and try to assimilate everyone they can (like it or lump it, that's the nature of the beast). Religion: keep it in your home or place of worship. It's that simple.

So gay guilds are ok but religious guilds are completely inappropriate? Total bullshit, either all are ok (which they are) or none, you have no right to restrict someone from doing something.  And before you say anything else read your statement, look at how offensive it is to a certain group of individuals.

Thing is, homosexual people usually don't try to convert you to homosexuality, specially not online where they aren't in physical contact with you. Something religions are actively doing since the dawn of time.

I see his point, even if religious guilds aren't a problem for me... I rather have them somewhere else than in my guild. It's a bit like silly names in MMORPG, it helps knowing which people you don't want to play with. No religious nut tells me how to play my games.

No but some homosexuals, thankfully few, will try to force you to accept their lifestyle in ways they have no business intruding into. Bad behavior isn't limited to or excluded from any  group. There is no moral high ground for bad behavior. Religious groups are no worse than groups that wear beanies with propellers on their heads.

Heterosexuals make these kinds of comments in games all the time, but because it's mainstream, no one gives a damn.  How do you think homosexuals feel when heterosexuality is forced upon them on a daily basis, yet we get berated if we make a single comment about our lives that you don't feel comfortable with?

 Like what?  I have never seen straight people talking about their bedroom lives unless its to their closest friends but people don't go around talking about their sexual proclivities around total strangers and if they do they are ill mannered, rude and obnoxious.  Gay or Straight it doesn't matter, normal people just don't do these things.  Unless you get pissed off when someone says wait a min I got girl friend agro or something as innocent as that.  If you have a problem with that sort of talk then the problem is you my friend not them.

Are you joking?  I hear more locker room talk in MMOs than I do in an actual locker room.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1825

7/19/13 11:46:07 PM#314
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Vorthanion

People like to chat in these games and it's nice to have a safe environment where you will not be attacked or judged by comments that some people find offensive.  Creating a guild for gay members provides that safe environment to be who you are and not be attacked or ridiculed because you let slip that you find some celebrity attractive and you happen to both be men.  I can't tell you how many "regular" guilds I have been in where all kinds of discussions take place, most having nothing to do with the game.  I don't see why people like you would take issue with specialized guilds that allow discussions on topics that won't upset more easily offended people like you.

 

Obviously you have no idea why these kinds of guilds exist if you think it's about propaganda or an agenda to subvert the game somehow.  In fact, you should be happy they exist, this keeps discussions you obviously don't like in guild chat rather than world chat.

You should read my other posts in the thread before you come to such hasty conclusions about me. Isn't that what you dislike from other people about you, hasty conclusions, and assumptions? Time to apply your own rules to yourself.

But apparently, you are also one of those who prefer to judge a book by its cover. Pot, kettle, black, etc...

Your /thread comment that you so conveniently removed from my quote would say otherwise.  That being your response to yet another poster who thinks people shouldn't chat about real life topics and both of you saying it shouldn't be done in a game, which is quite funny, since it's relegated for the most part to the gay guild and not your average world chat, so I fail to see why it would ever be an issue for you or him.

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

7/20/13 1:43:23 AM#315
Originally posted by Razeekster

"Dumb:

Adjective: (of a person) Unable to speak, most typically because of congenital deafness.

 

Verb: Simplify or reduce the intellectual content of something so as to make it accessible to a larger number of people.

 

Synonyms: mute - speechless - silent - voiceless - inarticulate"

 

I fail to see how this is a case of "Pot meet kettle." I never insulted anyone. I simply said that "gay" does not mean "dumb." Which is 100% true. So again, I don't see why I would have to apologize. 

 

 

It's the same because dumb origionally meant people either suffering from mental retardation, or as you noted, people who are unable to speak. Using dumb for anything else is adding a negative stigma to something that is a serious issue that cannot be helped by an individual.

Likewise, other words that are morphed are: retarded, bitch, the n word, and so on. To have a problem with the use of gay or faggot is justifiable, but you can't JUST have a problem with gay and faggot when you are using 'dumb', 'retarded', 'bitch', the n word and so on. Likewise, to only have a problem with gay and faggot and not the other words mentioned makes you more or less a hypocrite, because it's only bad when a word is used negatively when it affects you

 

edit: additional words that are used negatively and not as their intended meaning. Lame, stupid, idiot, little-girl

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2393

There... are... four... lights!

7/20/13 5:04:31 AM#316
Originally posted by KBishop
edit: additional words that are used negatively and not as their intended meaning. Lame, stupid, idiot, little-girl

... fanboi, fanboy ...

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 477

7/20/13 5:42:36 AM#317
Originally posted by Grahor

You don't have "white studies" in the university because that would be redundant.

You know you're not the majority in America any more, right?

It'll take a while, but we'll see "preserve caucasian culture" movements before the end of this century. You're being outbred into obsolescence.

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

7/20/13 6:03:06 AM#318

>>You know you're not the majority in America any more, right?<<

 

*rolls eyes*  First, I'm not an American, thank gods.

 

Second, whites in America are pretty much still the largest group; it's all other combined which are somewhat in the same ballpark, but no single group may in any way rival whites.

 

Third, same proclamations were issued before: Irish and Italians are going to overbreed whites... Well, look what happened. Hello, senior O'Reily, whitest of the white! Whites just assimilate some other group, so that it'll become "honorary whites", with "separate cultural identity" like Irish or Scottish or whatever, but still fully white; and voila, miraculously, whites are the majority again. A little bit less exclusive (after all, it's hard to argue that Irish are truly white people, that Irish children can have same academical success as whites, that Irish adults have same work ethics as proper whites, or don't have inherent drinking/violence problem, the beasts that they are), but nevertheless, white.

 

Say, let's take an average Latino. Who are latinos? Basicly spaniards. Who are spaniards? Why, they are whites. If Italian can be white, so can a Spaniard, too! Just adjust a bit Republican talking points, you know, the outreach thingie, and voila, you are a great majority again, and all non-whites are farked again!

 

>>we'll see "preserve caucasian culture" movements before the end of this century<<

 

We are seeing them now. As we've saw it 20 years ago. As we've saw it when Italians and Irish were the boogieman... The problem (the talent?) with whites is that they'll (we) always find ways to fark everyone else and yet to look like we are the victim here and just trying to do it all for you own good. The white man's burden, dontchaknow.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4127

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

7/20/13 6:40:07 AM#319
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Grahor

You don't have "white studies" in the university because that would be redundant.

You know you're not the majority in America any more, right?

It'll take a while, but we'll see "preserve caucasian culture" movements before the end of this century. You're being outbred into obsolescence.

well, there is always South Africa as the oddball in this issue.

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1564

7/20/13 6:55:55 AM#320
I think drugs have no place in gaming, so keep religion out of it. And same goes for politics, Chuck Norris "jokes", .... etc. 
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