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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Who wants camping back?

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  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

7/19/13 9:56:18 AM#361
Originally posted by Vocadi
  If you died that was a whole other adventure because then you had to make it back to some rendezvous point on your own or hitch a ride with other groups.

This was indeed a challenge.

That is not a challenge. That is just a chore. A difficult boss is a challenge. Challenge has nothing to do with punishment.

In fact, it prevents you from trying the challenge (killing the boss) again. Backtracking is not fun for me. I want to overcome the challenge, not redo what i have done before.

 

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3411

7/19/13 9:59:18 AM#362
Originally posted by Chieftan
+10 for Vocadi

Someone mentioned how pulling trains was an example of "emergent gameplay". When was the last time any MMO had emergent gameplay?

To say training was bad design is pretty ironic...how is rubberbanding mobs who FORGET about you after 50 yards good design?

Training is just another random element that's been removed so everything can run on rails with 100% predictability like a animatronic Disneyland ride.

     You know as well..  Dealing with trains, or adds was an art if you had the right class in your group..  There were times when "shit" happens and our bard or chanter has to earn their keep... Dealing with adds rocked, Lord knows that I as a druid did plenty of parking and healing at the same time.. Thing is.. When classes like chanters, bards and druids, etc used their class defining abilities to take care of multiple adds, those skills were too OP for the PvP gang.. So.. IF WoW in it's current form had trains, things could get ugly because many of the classes no longer have any skills to deal with "OOOOPS"..

     I miss having CC classes in WoW..  My Warlock loved a lot of the BC expansion.. I heard rumors that when Catclysm came out they tried to put CC back in, but many cried nerf and went back to the holy trinity model..

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2829

There... are... four... lights!

7/19/13 10:00:11 AM#363
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vocadi
  If you died that was a whole other adventure because then you had to make it back to some rendezvous point on your own or hitch a ride with other groups.

This was indeed a challenge.

That is not a challenge. That is just a chore. A difficult boss is a challenge. Challenge has nothing to do with punishment.

In fact, it prevents you from trying the challenge (killing the boss) again. Backtracking is not fun for me. I want to overcome the challenge, not redo what i have done before.

I can only agree.

Many rose colored glasses wearing "veterans" seem to confuse "challenge" with "tedium".

Having to mindlessly grind 10.000 mobs, rince and repeat ad nauseam,  to gain a level isn't challenging, it's tedious. I'm also a veteran, possibly since a longer time than many, and I don't remember grinding mobs to level as a fun and interesting activity past the first 30 minutes. It becomes quickly repetitive and boring, and therefore tedious.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3411

7/19/13 10:04:55 AM#364
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Chieftan
+10 for Vocadi

Someone mentioned how pulling trains was an example of "emergent gameplay". When was the last time any MMO had emergent gameplay?

To say training was bad design is pretty ironic...how is rubberbanding mobs who FORGET about you after 50 yards good design?

Training is just another random element that's been removed so everything can run on rails with 100% predictability like a animatronic Disneyland ride.

How is a different design makes train good or bad?

Emergent gameplay does not equate fun. Ganking is pretty much emergent gameplay too (in fact, probably not expected by the original designers).

Well designed rides can be fun, particularly if you only go through it once. That is pretty much proven (for many) since it is a pretty standard video game design in many genre (including MMOs).

 

     Why don't you play Tic Tac Toe anymore?  Because it's so predictable and boring, most children give it up by age 7.. Some of us feel that pre-designed themepark rides are the same thing, just prettier graphics..  It's why I don't play Pong anymore or Pac Man..  Sorry, I know the pattern too well and Pac-Man is no longer a challenge...... Next..

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3411

7/19/13 10:07:21 AM#365
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vocadi
  If you died that was a whole other adventure because then you had to make it back to some rendezvous point on your own or hitch a ride with other groups.

This was indeed a challenge.

That is not a challenge. That is just a chore. A difficult boss is a challenge. Challenge has nothing to do with punishment.

In fact, it prevents you from trying the challenge (killing the boss) again. Backtracking is not fun for me. I want to overcome the challenge, not redo what i have done before.

I can only agree.

Many rose colored glasses wearing "veterans" seem to confuse "challenge" with "tedium".

Having to mindlessly grind 10.000 mobs, rince and repeat ad nauseam,  to gain a level isn't challenging, it's tedious.

     So.. then doing any instance dungeon AFTER you did it a few times is equally tedious.. Right? As it has been pointed out many times..  Instances and designed rides are easy defeated.. What color are your glasses? 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10870

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/19/13 10:14:37 AM#366


Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Vocadi   If you died that was a whole other adventure because then you had to make it back to some rendezvous point on your own or hitch a ride with other groups. This was indeed a challenge.
That is not a challenge. That is just a chore. A difficult boss is a challenge. Challenge has nothing to do with punishment. In fact, it prevents you from trying the challenge (killing the boss) again. Backtracking is not fun for me. I want to overcome the challenge, not redo what i have done before.
I can only agree.

Many rose colored glasses wearing "veterans" seem to confuse "challenge" with "tedium".

Having to mindlessly grind 10.000 mobs, rince and repeat ad nauseam,  to gain a level isn't challenging, it's tedious.




There is a very fine line between adding tedium and adding a time sink that pulls you into the game. I think it's the difference between having to hoof it through a new zone, and having to hoof it through a zone you've been through two or three times.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

7/19/13 10:18:35 AM#367
Originally posted by Rydeson
 

     So.. then doing any instance dungeon AFTER you did it a few times is equally tedious.. Right? As it has been pointed out many times..  Instances and designed rides are easy defeated.. What color are your glasses? 

Not hard mode raids. Those are done by a few percentage of the players, and often takes weeks, if not months to crack.

Plus, it is not tedious if the dungeon is randomly generated.

And, whether an instanced dungeon is tedious or not, has nothing to do with backtracking *is* tedious. Devs should find ways to make games tedious, and go to some other design and not go back to backtracking and camping.

For example, STO leveling up missions .. are all instanced .. but you do it only once. Now that is not tedious.

 

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2829

There... are... four... lights!

7/19/13 10:18:48 AM#368
Originally posted by Rydeson

     So.. then doing any instance dungeon AFTER you did it a few times is equally tedious.. Right? As it has been pointed out many times..  Instances and designed rides are easy defeated.. What color are your glasses? 

Two wrongs never made one right. Changing a tedious grind for another tedious grind doesn't change a thing overall.

My glasses are just fine, and transparent. You generalizing instances as "easy defeated" only proves one thing, that either you never played a game with challenging instances, or you are trying to shape reality to fit your agenda here. If anything, open world "rare bosses" which are camped are easier than instanced bosses, because you can just zerg them with any amount of players you want.

But being tedious has nothing to do with challenge. Content, be it instanced or not, becomes tedious when you have to repeat it ad nauseam.

That's also why I mentioned earlier in the thread that "rare mobs" should be a "hunt", and not a "camp" waiting for them to magically appear out of thin air.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  krage

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/22/11
Posts: 414

7/19/13 10:20:18 AM#369

Last time I had a camp fest was for rare pets in WoW for my main hunter for hourse, it was horrible, although felt great when the creature spawned and I tamed it. That said I don't want camping back in the sense you sit and wait for hours on end to play the game or experience rewarding/fun content

I do like rare creatures, and would like to see them implemented in a random spawn method that cant simply be camped by a single person, like near impossible to wait out and camp a creature or event. My favorite on the OP list is #5, like a tower defense or enemy waves event camp would be fun as long as it happens regularly enough (Under 2 hours) or 

IMO from some of the comments, camping mobs for rewards is not some amazing gift or mastery. Its a time sink punishment that rewards people that have too much time on their hands, and multiple screens to ward off the boredom of camping with forum lurking, youtube, or other entertainment while they sit logged into a game and just afk camp. 

  Vocadi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/21/04
Posts: 194

7/19/13 10:24:59 AM#370
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vocadi
  If you died that was a whole other adventure because then you had to make it back to some rendezvous point on your own or hitch a ride with other groups.

This was indeed a challenge.

That is not a challenge. That is just a chore. A difficult boss is a challenge. Challenge has nothing to do with punishment.

In fact, it prevents you from trying the challenge (killing the boss) again. Backtracking is not fun for me. I want to overcome the challenge, not redo what i have done before.

I can only agree.

Many rose colored glasses wearing "veterans" seem to confuse "challenge" with "tedium".

Having to mindlessly grind 10.000 mobs, rince and repeat ad nauseam,  to gain a level isn't challenging, it's tedious. I'm also a veteran, possibly since a longer time than many, and I don't remember grinding mobs to level as a fun and interesting activity past the first 30 minutes. It becomes quickly repetitive and boring, and therefore tedious.

Of course mindlessly doing any task repeatedly ad nauseam would be tedious. I think most quests in alot of the popular ftp mmos available today are tedious as well. Anything done without end or break is boring. No one is saying that camping and ONLY camping should be the viable way to play an MMO.

And also, I would love to hear about new ideas and fresh takes on alternatives to the traditional MMO choices. Camping could be enjoyable (for those who wish to participate) if perhaps crafting, building or questing could be incorporated into it somehow.  Dying in EQ was not optimal but thats a different thread entirely and not the focus of this discussion.

 It would be lovely if people could consider a posters comments in its entirety instead of picking out bits and pieces and taking those out of context.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20123

7/19/13 10:29:30 AM#371
Originally posted by Vocadi
 

Of course mindlessly doing any task repeatedly ad nauseam would be tedious. I think most quests in alot of the popular ftp mmos available today are tedious as well. Anything done without end or break is boring. No one is saying that camping and ONLY camping should be the viable way to play an MMO.

And also, I would love to hear about new ideas and fresh takes on alternatives to the traditional MMO choices. Camping could be enjoyable (for those who wish to participate) if perhaps crafting, building or questing could be incorporated into it somehow.  Dying in EQ was not optimal but thats a different thread entirely and not the focus of this discussion.

 It would be lovely if people could consider a posters comments in its entirety instead of picking out bits and pieces and taking those out of context.

You don't need to go back to old and failed ideas like camping.

There are other ideas to get rid of tedium. For example, random generated dungeons & mob abilities (like that in D3) keeps combat fresh and fun. Now it obviously is not as good as a new hand design dungeon for every new play-through, but a step in the right direction.

Camping is horrible. Questing with repetition is better, but still not optimal. Questing with NO repetition is best but expansive to do. Some random dungeon/mobs is somewhere in between.

Throw in a difficulty slider to keep up the challenge will also help.

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1437

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

7/19/13 10:45:05 AM#372

Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.

Hey Nari, what EQ server did you play on, and when did you play the most? 2001? How great EQ was definitely depended on the server you chose, and when you were there. Some servers, I heard, just sucked.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2829

There... are... four... lights!

7/19/13 11:02:35 AM#373
Originally posted by Arclan

Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.

UO and EQ players like me think trains are bad design too, and that instancing can have its place in a MMORPG.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3411

7/19/13 11:06:08 AM#374
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Arclan

Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.

UO and EQ players like me think trains are bad design too, and that instancing can have its place in a MMORPG.

I'm still waiting to hear why they were a bad design.. You can't use player grieving either, because all old vets know that GM's did not tolerate that and would ban a player in a second for doing exactly that.. it's why it was very rare to ever see someone do deliberate trains unless they plan on quitting.. 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/19/13 11:08:43 AM#375
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Arclan

Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.

UO and EQ players like me think trains are bad design too, and that instancing can have its place in a MMORPG.

I'm still waiting to hear why they were a bad design.. You can't use player grieving either, because all old vets know that GM's did not tolerate that and would ban a player in a second for doing exactly that.. it's why it was very rare to ever see someone do deliberate trains unless they plan on quitting.. 



You were given reasons by several people. That you don't want to acknowledge them is a personal issue on your part and not anything we can fix for you.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3411

7/19/13 11:11:17 AM#376
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vocadi
 

Of course mindlessly doing any task repeatedly ad nauseam would be tedious. I think most quests in alot of the popular ftp mmos available today are tedious as well. Anything done without end or break is boring. No one is saying that camping and ONLY camping should be the viable way to play an MMO.

And also, I would love to hear about new ideas and fresh takes on alternatives to the traditional MMO choices. Camping could be enjoyable (for those who wish to participate) if perhaps crafting, building or questing could be incorporated into it somehow.  Dying in EQ was not optimal but thats a different thread entirely and not the focus of this discussion.

 It would be lovely if people could consider a posters comments in its entirety instead of picking out bits and pieces and taking those out of context.

You don't need to go back to old and failed ideas like camping.

There are other ideas to get rid of tedium. For example, random generated dungeons & mob abilities (like that in D3) keeps combat fresh and fun. Now it obviously is not as good as a new hand design dungeon for every new play-through, but a step in the right direction.

Camping is horrible. Questing with repetition is better, but still not optimal. Questing with NO repetition is best but expansive to do. Some random dungeon/mobs is somewhere in between.

Throw in a difficulty slider to keep up the challenge will also help.

 

     I think I'll pass.. that sounds like one overpriced LOBBY game.. I don't like them on the Xbox, and don't think I'll like that in MMORPG's either..  I like an open world, not lobby games where everyone sits around in a city picking their nose waiting for a queue to fire..... OH BTW..  Every game that has dps with a LFD finder, still blows.. The wait times are horrible.. Let me guess.. Your answer to the 1 hour waits is "instant" dungeon regardless of size.. ??

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3411

7/19/13 11:12:06 AM#377
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Arclan

Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.

UO and EQ players like me think trains are bad design too, and that instancing can have its place in a MMORPG.

I'm still waiting to hear why they were a bad design.. You can't use player grieving either, because all old vets know that GM's did not tolerate that and would ban a player in a second for doing exactly that.. it's why it was very rare to ever see someone do deliberate trains unless they plan on quitting.. 



You were given reasons by several people. That you don't want to acknowledge them is a personal issue on your part and not anything we can fix for you.

Please copy and paste me those reasons.. I failed to see ANY that were truthful and accurate..  Thank you

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/19/13 11:13:34 AM#378
Originally posted by Chieftan
+10 for Vocadi

Someone mentioned how pulling trains was an example of "emergent gameplay". When was the last time any MMO had emergent gameplay?

To say training was bad design is pretty ironic...how is rubberbanding mobs who FORGET about you after 50 yards good design?

No here one argued that was good design. Stay on topic, please.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1437

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

7/19/13 11:24:21 AM#379


Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Originally posted by Arclan Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.
UO and EQ players like me think trains are bad design too, and that instancing can have its place in a MMORPG.

To say trains are bad design is to say either:
1. you don't want others to affect your gameplay
2. you want a safety net where, if things go wrong, mass chaos does not ensue.

Item 1 contradicts the idea of an MMO and item 2 is a bit carebear.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2829

There... are... four... lights!

7/19/13 11:28:50 AM#380
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Originally posted by Arclan Of course WoW players think trains are bad design. They think instancing is a good design.
UO and EQ players like me think trains are bad design too, and that instancing can have its place in a MMORPG.

 

To say trains are bad design is to say either:
1. you don't want others to affect your gameplay

If I want others to affect my gameplay, I do PvP, and I don't resort to cheap tactics like trains which permit to grief others without them being able to fight you back.


2. you want a safety net where, if things go wrong, mass chaos does not ensue.

I don't see how mobs chasing you for ages bring anything to gameplay, except griefing opportunities and exploits involving zone borders.

Item 1 contradicts the idea of an MMO and item 2 is a bit carebear.

You have no idea. Remember, assumptions about people you don't know only achieve one thing... and we all know what it is.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

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