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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Religious and LGBT Guilds, Yay or Nay?

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352 posts found
  austriacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 626

7/19/13 12:48:47 AM#121
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Xthos
Had some stuff like this way back in EQ, and it doesn't bother me.  I am of neither camp, but I do not care if people want to make a guild for cat lovers....As long as they do not do something to disrupt others or spam people with their message and such...Have at it.

LGBT  fine, christian budhist hindu well OK.  But I have to draw the line at cat lovers, they really should just log off and seek treatment.

What about guilds for cat girl lovers, i hear theres gona be loads of those in FFXIV.

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

7/19/13 1:01:12 AM#122

I'm all for exclusion guilds. There are classes of people I don't like to communicate with, starting with "stupid". Why should I be forced to be in a tight contact with them? I want to play with people I like, rather than with people that annoy me. Therefore, any guild, no matter how exclusive, has full right to exist.

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

7/19/13 2:32:51 AM#123

I've always had a bit of a problem with being a part of the LGBT community because of this particular reason. Making a guild exclusively involved with LGBT sounds nice in theory, but is totally counter intuitive. The guild by definition essentially reinforces the idea that being LGBT is in fact different, because this guild is focused entirely on that difference. If the LGBT community wants acceptance by reinforcing that we are equal to straight people, then parading our difference from them is certainly not exactly the best way to go about it.

in my opinion anyway.

  GrumpyJester

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/08
Posts: 96

7/19/13 3:33:46 AM#124

Religious guilds are fine. LGBT guilds are fine. Guilds for people who love Dr. Who are fine. Guilds for people who love cats are fine, etc.

 

 

Make your guild based on "preference", whether it's religious, sexual or otherwise. Why on earth would we ban that?

 

Originally posted by KBishop

I've always had a bit of a problem with being a part of the LGBT community because of this particular reason. Making a guild exclusively involved with LGBT sounds nice in theory, but is totally counter intuitive. The guild by definition essentially reinforces the idea that being LGBT is in fact different, because this guild is focused entirely on that difference. If the LGBT community wants acceptance by reinforcing that we are equal to straight people, then parading our difference from them is certainly not exactly the best way to go about it.

in my opinion anyway.

Yep, agreed. Still believe we shouldn't ban LGBT guilds because of this though (not to imply that you do, but since "to ban or not to ban" is the topic of this thread).

  Waterlily

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2890

7/19/13 3:49:13 AM#125

Why would I care AT ALL if you're gay or transgender.

I do not care, keep your sexual stuff out of games where kids play.

  Waterlily

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2890

7/19/13 3:56:35 AM#126
Originally posted by immodium

What I find unusual is why someone would play a game and think "I need to get my sexual orientation/religious/political views involved somehow"

THIS, why the hell are people bringing their sexual orientation into games, not only is it completely immersion breaking to bring up political and sexual topics, KIDS play these games, keep your sexual desires OUT OF THE GAME and go talk about it on a forum that deals with sex

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2766

There... are... four... lights!

7/19/13 4:15:48 AM#127

I must say I'm quite amused by the concept of kids being offended by talk about sexuality in a game where they spend their time killing innocent animals and other characters, not to mention many kids today know more curse words that their parents... even though I agree that this kind of chat should be kept private, aka restricted to your guild's chat if the guild permits it. Total strangers in public chat should not be forced to endure one's sex stories, not because they could be offended (I couldn't care less about that), but because this kind of discussion inevitably ends in the maturity level dropping to abysmal levels, accompanied by trolling, flaming and spamming that affects the ability to use the public chat for game matters.

Public chat in a game is to talk about the game, not sex, politics, religion or any other real life stuff. There's a good reason why most games forbid that kind of chatting anyway.

 

I also agree with the people saying that a LGBT guild (for instance) is just as much discrimination as an heterosexual guild would be. In the guild I'm leading, we aren't interested in your religion, politic views or sexual orientation. Actually, even though I know some of my guildies are married and some have kids, half of them could be homosexual buddists for all I know... and guess what? I don't care. What's important to me is that they are pleasant persons to play with, and part of being pleasant is to not force your "real life" views onto everyone else in the guild.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3191

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

7/19/13 4:42:32 AM#128


Originally posted by Four0Six

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
I really do not care what people do on their own or what they choose to believe in. It is when they feel the need to "advertise" their choices that can get under my skin. These are real world aspects that have no place in a fantasy world. I just want to say, "yay? good for you?"

That being said, I can see how that "identification" can make things easier yet at the same time harder. People looking for like minded people have an easier time finding them. On the other hand, the small minded players have easily identifiable targets for their desperate hate.

I can understand Blizzard's stance. It is not unlike MMORPG.com's stance on political and religious posting. It tends to fan the flames of board wars. It is sad that a "special interest group" dictated how a business was run. That is wrong.

Just as MMOs are created to sell to the lowest common denominator (LCD), they also have to take into account what they allow for that same LCD to interact with.

I guess I just do not understand what makes people want others to know about their sexual, political, or religious choices or preferences. It's a game. Leave that stuff at the log in screen.

Remember, Guilds decide who they let in or not. No one should be able to tell Guilds who gets to become members. In one sense it is not unlike PvE, PvP, or RP guild tags. But that is geared more towards game play, not real world likes/dislikes.



I could agree, except when was the last time you say a guild that didn't "require", VOIP? I know of 1 in Rift at launch, Silent Epidemic, founder was deaf.......But other than that it is required. Making the argument about "immersion" a moot point.

Really all a LGBT guild wants is to not hear "fag" in VOIP. Just as the religious guild doesn't want to hear cussing. They both are trying  to avoid immature A-Holes that are going to stir up trouble in the guild. How about we stop being offended because some group we didn't want to be involved with in the first place doesn't want us? Besides, if you allow guilds to be so labeled, it frees up the Moderators to keep "hot-button" issues out of general.



I understand that. It is like a guild for "mature" members wanting no kids involved so they don't have to watch what they say. It also helps players stay away from guilds they do not wish to get chummy with, for whatever reason.

Truthfully, I do not get why players want to "play at" relationships in computer games. Straight or homosexual, it matters not to me. All of that is strange to me. I made myself do the Bastilla love thing in SW:KotOR 1 in order to turn her back. It was not fun at all for me. It was uncomfortable. So why does it matter what sexual orientation one is in a game?

Same with religious Guilds. "We worship a God NOT in this game. Come join us!" May as well throw the lore right out with the bath water.

Immersion is really non-existant in MMOs. Someone, somewhere will always talk about real world issues, happenings, or memes in global chat. Heck, many times in EQ when I'd be running through East Commonlands it was a rare time when Monty Python and the Holy Grail was not being repeated in /ooc chat.

Immersion breakers are kind of like litter. It is everywhere. If everyone picked up 1 or 2 pieces it gets lesser and lesser. Just because it exists here and there does not mean it should happen everywhere, too, don't you think?

I understand people want to game with like minded players. I am all for it. Just be aware of the other 1000s of players around you and what their reactions might be.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  GrumpyJester

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/08
Posts: 96

7/19/13 4:52:52 AM#129
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by immodium

What I find unusual is why someone would play a game and think "I need to get my sexual orientation/religious/political views involved somehow"

THIS, why the hell are people bringing their sexual orientation into games, not only is it completely immersion breaking to bring up political and sexual topics, KIDS play these games, keep your sexual desires OUT OF THE GAME and go talk about it on a forum that deals with sex

 

Why on earth would this be about sex? LGBT could just as easily be explained in terms of who you love. Kids certainly don't need to be protected from this, there's nothing "mature" about it.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3191

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

7/19/13 5:05:09 AM#130


Originally posted by CommoX
Personally I believe guilds should be themed within the games atmosphere, there's a very broad spectrum to that, but by blocking yourself off into little chunks/groups your just hurting yourself and your group.

Religion - Sure, All praise No'donn! A good number of people can get behind what No'donn is about.

Sexual Orientation - Gundabar's Fabulously Ranged Rangers. Why not, Rangers, ranged weapons, the chance to be epically fabulous, hell, I'm down for lookin down right deadly on a scouting mission.

It highly amuses me when people who don't want to be segregated, looked at as different or sorted into a specific category do it to themselves and then cry foul.

"Dear me, I've cordoned myself behind my differences and can't be bothered to look past them to see that we are all just people who might all enjoy a hobby together."

Personal preference is just that, personal. If your friends/acquaintances can't see past that, it might be time to find some new ones.

Everyone wants to be accepted, but they refuse to accept anyone else.

Boggling



I formed a guild in WoW with a buddy I met in WoW. It was an all Druid guild (meaning Night Elves only - Alliance) called Ninja Kitties. We actually had a great run (we had over 100 active players) until Cata came out and destroyed us with their guild perks needing varied classes and races to get. We also created another guild with no restrictions for our non-Druid characters. Eventually, the non-Druid guild absorbed the Druids.

Your part about people labeling themselves is so on target. I am a human being. That is all anyone else needs to know about me.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3191

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

7/19/13 5:07:14 AM#131


Originally posted by immodium
i was going to mention children play games in regard to sexual orientation. After recently watching a UK show called the Big Questions and the topic being "Should pornography be taught in Schools?", why not have sex in games? If that sort of topic is being debated it just shows what kids today are facing in RL.

Isn't that for parents to decide where and when? Or do parents no longer need to exist?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Lorska

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/27/03
Posts: 76

7/19/13 5:19:05 AM#132
I think it's all fine as long as they treat outsiders with enough respect.  I want a guild where everyone must be at least IQ 130 and/or DD cup women, besides myself....
  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3191

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

7/19/13 5:19:59 AM#133

*deleted*

Answered in a latter post

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Magnetia

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/07/11
Posts: 969

Any fool can know. The point is to understand.

7/19/13 5:21:07 AM#134

I thought the whole point is that people come from all walks of life to come together for a common cause. Even in this virtual domain we still think we need to hide away in small groups. 

I can understand trying to find people with a similar mindset, it's like asking for mature players and not accepting people under 22. It's a choice the leaders must make when they create the guild. I can see a lot of ignorant people who might not be as open minded about the true face humanity.

To me it's the same as if regular guilds discriminated against based on beliefs or race or a more reasonable and realistic reason is language. You want to get like minded people together and minimize the chances of picking up an asshole.

In the end we have to ask the question, is excluding or including people for the good of the guild or just discrimination? A guild has many opinions and that's what makes them so special. What allows us to overcome great difficulties is combining different ideas from different people with all kinds of experiences to make something we'd never dreamed possible.

Just think about it. Nobody creates a guild with the intention to make lifelong friends. Nobody can foresee what members we recruit in the future or how they will affect us. We build the relationships in our guilds and what we do with those relationships is our responsibility.

Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  immodium

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1289

7/19/13 5:24:54 AM#135
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by immodium
i was going to mention children play games in regard to sexual orientation. After recently watching a UK show called the Big Questions and the topic being "Should pornography be taught in Schools?", why not have sex in games? If that sort of topic is being debated it just shows what kids today are facing in RL.


Isn't that for parents to decide where and when? Or do parents no longer need to exist?

 

That was the main argument against the idea.

 

  immodium

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1289

7/19/13 5:32:50 AM#136
Originally posted by GrumpyJester
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by immodium

What I find unusual is why someone would play a game and think "I need to get my sexual orientation/religious/political views involved somehow"

THIS, why the hell are people bringing their sexual orientation into games, not only is it completely immersion breaking to bring up political and sexual topics, KIDS play these games, keep your sexual desires OUT OF THE GAME and go talk about it on a forum that deals with sex

 

Why on earth would this be about sex? LGBT could just as easily be explained in terms of who you love. Kids certainly don't need to be protected from this, there's nothing "mature" about it.

You are kidding right? What you find sexually attractive has nothing to do with love. Imagine having a  kid saying "Does that mean I'm gay becuase I love you daddy?" Wouldn't it just confuse the kid more? I'd feel like I've just dug a hole for myself with that explanation.

I do agree there is nothing mature/intelligent about sex though.

  aspekx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

7/19/13 5:35:52 AM#137

segregation for safety is fine.

 

as a counterpoint to some of the argumentation here, i could certainly see the space for a children's guild run by parents.

 

just don't develop a ghetto mindset. that' the danger of not allowing exposure to the world around us.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

7/19/13 5:36:23 AM#138

If I were allowed to make an all white, heterosexual guild then maybe.

Anything less is sexist, racist or heterophobic.

  aspekx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

7/19/13 5:40:12 AM#139
Originally posted by Adalwulff

If I were allowed to make an all white, heterosexual guild then maybe.

Anything less is sexist, racist or heterophobic.

 

once again someone in the absolute majority, a majority which has systematically repressed a group of people for centuries thinks that the same rules apply to them. well they don't. heterophobic would imply the ability to ruin your life, cause you to lose your job, or insist that you cannot marry the person you love, it would include being verbally harrassed for holding hands in public, or at times even physically assaulted. name me the heteros with this experience and we might could talk.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  jonrd463

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/09
Posts: 608

7/19/13 5:46:46 AM#140

I don't guild any more, but I do have my own personal philosophy regarding this subject. In a game, I enter it as a character. Sure, my personality presents itself, but it's pretty neutral with regard to my sexual orientation, religion, and political beliefs. The reason is that for me, how I interact with others and play the game has nothing to do with these things, so there's no need to assert my stance with regard to them.

In fact, I think people who DO feel the need to assert their straightness/gayness/religiosity/athiesm/conservative/liberal/etc. stances in a game, generally have some kind of agenda and are looking for a conflict. They go straight to my /ignore list, even if they happen to be on the same side of the arguments as I am.

That stuff just has no place in a game, period.

"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous

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