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  Nanfoodle

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3508

7/18/13 8:51:33 AM#401
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by 5aturn
I am glad its sub based, and I hope they give 0 free trial crap until a year in to keep the garbage cheap asses away.  It will succeed as a p2p mmo as the f2p market is on a steady decline because people dont have the money to shell over constantly for instore goodies now with the economy as it is,  15 a month vs the need to dump 300 to p2win which most f2p mmos are.  swtor went f2p because it was a terrible unpolished turd when it came out and still is at this point.  rift can do it because they made bank on their subs and they have another good game out now that is a upfront buy so again they load up on money.  SE and the Final Fantasy franchise is and will continue to be the biggest RPG video game IP there is simply because of name recognition alone.  To all those saying its gonna fail.  How come XI hasnt and still has a ridiculous player base? Its sub based and was not the easiest mmo to get into. WoW is sub-based still dominates the mmo market.  Sub based is the way of mmo future because companies are learning f2p = trash hack players with no true repercussions if you ban account. They lose time, no cost on the game no sub time lost. All mmos should go to a sub based model to eliminate the garbage that has flooded the f2p games.  

You never played GW1 or GW2 did you? There cash shop was really fair and you never needed to spend 1 buck on it to get items from it. There was no pay to win items and the game was quality no matter what flack people have given it. They have put up tones of free content. I would still be playing it if it had the trinity system. F2P does not need to = rip off/pay to win.

GW2's Cash Shop is only acceptable because of the kind of game GW2 is. Progression is not based on a heavy vertical gear treadmill. I can assure you, if GW2 had that system, the Cash Shop as it is right now, would be seen differently. Everyone's always saying "GW2's Cash Shop is the right way to do it" I disagree. I don't think it's the Cash Shop at all. It's GW2 itself that keeps the shop from being P2W. I guarantee, the same kind of options in a game like Anarchy Online, And it's automatically a P2W cash shop. (I used AO as an example since that's exactly what happened)

 

Think about it for a second.

IN GW2 I can use a fairly small amount of real money (Compared to other F2P models) and easily aquire enough gold to have about 95% of everything I'll ever need.

Assuming I just bought the game, I can roll my toon, get through the tutorial, go into my city, hit the TP and buy all the mats I need based off one of the crafting leveling guides., Following the guide and using a crafting booster, I can rapidly level my 1st tradeskill to 400. This will bring me 10 levels. I can repeat this step 7 more times. So in reality, I can buy, from the TP, a level 80 character. I can also use gold to obtain a full set of exotic gear. What's more, If I am a whale from other F2P games, then I would also be very willing to buy the absolute pinnacle of GW2. The legendary in the same way. Being able to acquire a top geared, instant capped and fairly wealthy character from the game is generally P2W, but because in GW2, these things don't get you the same effect they do in other MMOs, it's acceptable. (Not being sarcastic here, it IS acceptable based on GW2 only)

I've said this in other threads. Almost everything new ANET did in that game, belongs in that game and that game only. Nothing GW2 brought to the genre would work out as well in new MMOs as well as it works in GW2.

I dont think you get what "Pay to Win" means. You power level your char with crafting you funded with RL money. So your now top level. I leveled my char by playing the game and we fight each other in WvW. Who has the advantage to win but what they spent in the cash shop? Not you or I. Thats where GW2 cash shop is fair, no items in the cash shop gives you an advantage over anyone in combat. Its only about time saving. Sure you got geared quicker but once your geared your geared. 

But the essence of the GW2 cash shop is where its fair. You can remove the Gems to game gold transfer and it would remove why you dont like it and it still would be a fair system and not pay to win. It can be used as a model for other games and not make the game pay to win and as the post I replied to, GW games are not crap. They are quality games. Like I said I would still be playing them if it had the trinity. 

You missed my point altogether. Nor did you contradict what I said. I said, If it were a different game, the same Cash SHop options would be P2W. You went back and are using an example out of GW2. But I already said it's not P2W in GW2.

 

And you missed my point, their cash shop is fair in their game and not pay to win. It is possible to have a fair cash shop and it not be Pay to Win and just because a game has a cash shop does not mean the game is crap =-) You adjust the cash shop to fit the game just like you do any mechanic you add to a game, raiding, crafting, housing.  

Yes, I get that. I know it works in GW2. But, I still think you haven't fully comprehended my previous post. Your responses are out of context so I'll paraphrase. Just because it works in GW2, doesn't mean it will work anywhere else. 

 

LOL this is fun... I get your point but I am saying I 100% disagree with you, I will paraphrase, it can work in any game if they tune it for the game. Im not saying add a cash shop to FF14, I was replying to a comment that game with cash shop = pay to win and crappy game =-) A smart dev team can make a cash shop fair to any game and make sure its not pay to win. If they added some vanity items to a cash shop for FF14, pets and dresses my wife would like to put on her avatar I would not be upset. To keep her playing I would most likely buy a few to make her want to log in more =-) I get the fear of cash shops, some games have used it as a tool to rip off their customers. 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4879

7/18/13 9:03:31 AM#402
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
 

 

LOL this is fun... I get your point but I am saying I 100% disagree with you, I will paraphrase it can work in any game if they tune it for the game. Im not saying add a cash shop to FF14, I was replying to a comment that game with cash shop = pay to win and crappy game =-) A smart dev team can make a cash shop fair to any game and make sure its not pay to win. If they added some vanity items to a cash shop for FF14, pets and dresses my wife would like to put on her avatar I would not be upset. To keep her playing I would most likely buy a few to make her want to log in more =-) I get the fear of cash shops, some games have used it as a tool to rip off their customers. 

 I disagree, not every game will have a nice fair and square cash shop for all and still be profitable. I'll go back to Anarchy.

When they opened the Cash Shop up, they didn't sell anything that would be considered highly advantageous. But most of the items could be traded. (Real money to game money conversion) Not too different than GW2 in theory. But in Anarchy, the game's mechanics allow for something called "Loot Rights" And those are sold in that game. The mechanic is such that an un looted boss mob will not de-spawn for a long time but after a couple of minutes, the unlooted corpse becomes FFA. What groups will do, is go back to Trade Chat in one of hte cities and announce they have an unlooted Raid Drop. "Who want's it?" For the right amount of money paid to the raid team, anyone in the game will be ported to the corpse and allowed to loot. So, even the Character Bound Raid dropped items can be bought due to different mechanics. 

 

Same kinda of shop in two different MMOs has 2 different effects. 

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

7/18/13 9:04:29 AM#403
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 

I've said this in other threads. Almost everything new ANET did in that game, belongs in that game and that game only. Nothing GW2 brought to the genre would work out as well in new MMOs as well as it works in GW2.

Other than 'because i said so', we don't know yet if GW2 features will work well in other MMOS or not. ESO is the only upcoming MMO i know of that is incorporating a lot of GW2 features. So the jury is still out that.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4879

7/18/13 9:10:29 AM#404
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 

I've said this in other threads. Almost everything new ANET did in that game, belongs in that game and that game only. Nothing GW2 brought to the genre would work out as well in new MMOs as well as it works in GW2.

Other than 'because i said so', we don't know yet if GW2 features will work well in other MMOS or not. ESO is the only upcoming MMO i know of that is incorporating a lot of GW2 features. So the jury is still out that.

That's what I've been saying. Something that works in Game A, Doesn't mean it's going to work in Game B. Not saying it won't. But that different mechanics make for different dynamics and may or may not translate.

I just happen to be less optimistic about it. But that's my own opinion.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Nanfoodle

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3508

7/18/13 9:11:12 AM#405
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
 

 

LOL this is fun... I get your point but I am saying I 100% disagree with you, I will paraphrase it can work in any game if they tune it for the game. Im not saying add a cash shop to FF14, I was replying to a comment that game with cash shop = pay to win and crappy game =-) A smart dev team can make a cash shop fair to any game and make sure its not pay to win. If they added some vanity items to a cash shop for FF14, pets and dresses my wife would like to put on her avatar I would not be upset. To keep her playing I would most likely buy a few to make her want to log in more =-) I get the fear of cash shops, some games have used it as a tool to rip off their customers. 

 I disagree, not every game will have a nice fair and square cash shop for all and still be profitable. I'll go back to Anarchy.

When they opened the Cash Shop up, they didn't sell anything that would be considered highly advantageous. But most of the items could be traded. (Real money to game money conversion) Not too different than GW2 in theory. But in Anarchy, the game's mechanics allow for something called "Loot Rights" And those are sold in that game. The mechanic is such that an un looted boss mob will not de-spawn for a long time but after a couple of minutes, the unlooted corpse becomes FFA. What groups will do, is go back to Trade Chat in one of hte cities and announce they have an unlooted Raid Drop. "Who want's it?" For the right amount of money paid to the raid team, anyone in the game will be ported to the corpse and allowed to loot. So, even the Character Bound Raid dropped items can be bought due to different mechanics. 

 

Same kinda of shop in two different MMOs has 2 different effects. 

I agree 100%, players will always look for ways to exploit game mechanics to their advantage but thats what patches and updates are for =-) As I said a smart dev team can make a fair cash shop to any game. Will it need adjusting and updates? Most likely. 

  Ryowulf

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 671

7/18/13 2:05:36 PM#406
Are some of you saying you don't like ftp because its ptw or in some ways unfair to players.  In other words you don't trust the Devs of FF to make a decent ftp system.  Yet you trust them to have ptp without a bad cash shop(or none at all) or not go ftp (or some hybrid) 6-8 months after going live?
  wizyy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/05
Posts: 636

7/18/13 2:42:10 PM#407
Originally posted by Naqaj
This conversation is actually quite interesting, but for gods sake can you please stop those quote monstrosities!

It's always some two dudes who keep quoting themselves. Ruined many a thread

  Nanfoodle

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3508

7/18/13 2:43:09 PM#408
Originally posted by Ryowulf
Are some of you saying you don't like ftp because its ptw or in some ways unfair to players.  In other words you don't trust the Devs of FF to make a decent ftp system.  Yet you trust them to have ptp without a bad cash shop(or none at all) or not go ftp (or some hybrid) 6-8 months after going live?

hehe sounds funny when you put it that way =-) We trust them to make a fair P2P game but would not trust them to add a cash shop or F2P model. 

  Nanfoodle

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3508

7/18/13 2:46:34 PM#409
Originally posted by wizyy
Originally posted by Naqaj
This conversation is actually quite interesting, but for gods sake can you please stop those quote monstrosities!

It's always some two dudes who keep quoting themselves. Ruined many a thread

Dang you just quoted someone, you ruined the thread. OK PEOPLE SHUT IT DOWN!!! MODS ARE YOU LISTING? Really, people having a conversation ruins a thread? I would say, trolling, cry babies, people who cant stay on topic, angry people are all things that ruin a thread. ((eye roll))

  Naqaj

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1681

7/18/13 2:47:42 PM#410
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

That's what I've been saying. Something that works in Game A, Doesn't mean it's going to work in Game B. Not saying it won't. But that different mechanics make for different dynamics and may or may not translate.

I just happen to be less optimistic about it. But that's my own opinion.

Interesting. What if it's not actually the mechanics that are all that different, but merely the players' perception of what encompasses 'winning'?

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5912

7/18/13 3:22:40 PM#411
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Ryowulf
Are some of you saying you don't like ftp because its ptw or in some ways unfair to players.  In other words you don't trust the Devs of FF to make a decent ftp system.  Yet you trust them to have ptp without a bad cash shop(or none at all) or not go ftp (or some hybrid) 6-8 months after going live?

hehe sounds funny when you put it that way =-) We trust them to make a fair P2P game but would not trust them to add a cash shop or F2P model. 

That also sort of implies you trust them not to include time sinks for the purpose of keeping you subbed longer so you pay more, like say leve quest limitations or cooldowns.  Do you all trust they wouldn't do that?  Do you think people will justify and explain away the time sinks rather than acknowledge them?  They've sort of existed in every mmo since UO, Lineage, and EQ.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Nanfoodle

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3508

7/18/13 3:33:42 PM#412
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Ryowulf
Are some of you saying you don't like ftp because its ptw or in some ways unfair to players.  In other words you don't trust the Devs of FF to make a decent ftp system.  Yet you trust them to have ptp without a bad cash shop(or none at all) or not go ftp (or some hybrid) 6-8 months after going live?

hehe sounds funny when you put it that way =-) We trust them to make a fair P2P game but would not trust them to add a cash shop or F2P model. 

That also sort of implies you trust them not to include time sinks for the purpose of keeping you subbed longer so you pay more, like say leve quest limitations or cooldowns.  Do you all trust they wouldn't do that?  Do you think people will justify and explain away the time sinks rather than acknowledge them?  They've sort of existed in every mmo since UO, Lineage, and EQ.

lol, when it comes down to it you gona pay no matter what model they pick. People who think F2P is really free have only fooled themselves. Sure with a sub model they will want to bottle neck you as much as they can. Its only smart business =-)

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4879

7/18/13 4:15:20 PM#413
Originally posted by Naqaj
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

That's what I've been saying. Something that works in Game A, Doesn't mean it's going to work in Game B. Not saying it won't. But that different mechanics make for different dynamics and may or may not translate.

I just happen to be less optimistic about it. But that's my own opinion.

Interesting. What if it's not actually the mechanics that are all that different, but merely the players' perception of what encompasses 'winning'?

While I can't argue that "Winniing" is 100% subjective, you wouldn't consider the ability to obtain top of the line, best in slot items in the entire game regardless of how or where they dropped simply by using a credit card P2W?

Becasue in game mechanics in one game allow for it where the other is not entirely the case, yet both Cash Shops were very similar.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Naqaj

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1681

7/18/13 4:38:28 PM#414
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

While I can't argue that "Winniing" is 100% subjective, you wouldn't consider the ability to obtain top of the line, best in slot items in the entire game regardless of how or where they dropped simply by using a credit card P2W?

That part alone I actually really wouldn't consider P2W, because it's missing a pretty important part of context: what do you need the best-in-slot items for? What can you do with them that you couldn't do without? I think that's a pretty important piece of the puzzle, but is routinely overlooked in the discussions (or rants, really) about the merits of cash shops.

 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4879

7/18/13 6:12:51 PM#415
Originally posted by Naqaj
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

While I can't argue that "Winniing" is 100% subjective, you wouldn't consider the ability to obtain top of the line, best in slot items in the entire game regardless of how or where they dropped simply by using a credit card P2W?

That part alone I actually really wouldn't consider P2W, because it's missing a pretty important part of context: what do you need the best-in-slot items for? What can you do with them that you couldn't do without? I think that's a pretty important piece of the puzzle, but is routinely overlooked in the discussions (or rants, really) about the merits of cash shops.

 

Truth be told, I personally don't love the idea, but P2W items such as combat buffs in the Cash Shop are actually less offensive to me than the ability to convert real money to game currency on a large scale. Yes I am fully aware Gold sellers still operate, but the scale is much smaller since the average Joe gamer isn't about to risk his account on a minor gold purchase. But in a sanctioned game.....Well, all you have to do is look at how many people have kites in GW2. They are all Shop users. And as a result, GW2 economy is one of the worst game economies I've ever seen.  Plus the built in mechanics such as 15% taxing on TP use that is forced since there is no inter-player trade options. I find that to be ridiculous.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Naqaj

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1681

7/19/13 11:27:37 AM#416

Well, currency conversion, same thing as before. What you can actually buy with it, and what that enables you to do is what makes the difference.

I don't think that's the explanation for GW2's market. Everyone's a crafter, everyone produces the high-end gear, it's absolutely a buyers market. There is almost no scarcity except for the few items related to Legendaries. I guess whether you consider that market good or bad depends on what end of the transaction you're at.

I'd assume XIV will go the opposite way, with how much more invovled gathering and crafting are, crafters will likely be a much smaller portion of the population, causing a very different ratio of supply and demand.

  Nanfoodle

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3508

7/19/13 11:44:06 AM#417
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Naqaj
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

While I can't argue that "Winniing" is 100% subjective, you wouldn't consider the ability to obtain top of the line, best in slot items in the entire game regardless of how or where they dropped simply by using a credit card P2W?

That part alone I actually really wouldn't consider P2W, because it's missing a pretty important part of context: what do you need the best-in-slot items for? What can you do with them that you couldn't do without? I think that's a pretty important piece of the puzzle, but is routinely overlooked in the discussions (or rants, really) about the merits of cash shops.

 

Truth be told, I personally don't love the idea, but P2W items such as combat buffs in the Cash Shop are actually less offensive to me than the ability to convert real money to game currency on a large scale. Yes I am fully aware Gold sellers still operate, but the scale is much smaller since the average Joe gamer isn't about to risk his account on a minor gold purchase. But in a sanctioned game.....Well, all you have to do is look at how many people have kites in GW2. They are all Shop users. And as a result, GW2 economy is one of the worst game economies I've ever seen.  Plus the built in mechanics such as 15% taxing on TP use that is forced since there is no inter-player trade options. I find that to be ridiculous.

100% agree, never liked you could buy gems and sell them for game gold. 

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

7/19/13 11:49:00 AM#418
Originally posted by Shatter30
This game will fail as a sub MMO.  If TOR couldn't survive as one as large of an IP as it is, why would this do any better when its essentially a WOW clone done worse. 

 

TOR fell because it was a really crappy game, despite the IP.

A triple A sub MMO is exactly what we need right now, as long as it delivers.

  Ayulin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 344

7/19/13 12:30:40 PM#419
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
 

The times have changed as well in the past 2 years. New customers are picking F2P because they have so many games to pick from. You wana keep a flow of new people trying your game in this new market get with the times. It will happen.

I have your posts bookmarked.

It's going to be entertaining to see how quickly you'll be spinning when your "expert predictions" don't come to pass, because you don't have all the answers, you don't have your thumb on the pulse of the MMO industry, and you do not and can not claim to speak for every MMO gamer out there, what they will or will not pay for, what they prefer or why. Yet, that's what you continue to do when you argue these broad-sweeping generalizations as though they're irrefutable fact.

John Smedley, a man on the inside, with years of first-hand MMO industry experience, seeing it go through its changes in real-time, as he tried to keep SOE's games relevant throughout them, predicted that TOR would be the last AAA MMO released as P2P; that subs would become a thing of the past. He was wrong.

But somehow, you... an arm-chair forum-warrior with an opinion... have it all figured out. Please forgive me if my confidence in your predictive abilities isn't exactly peaking.

So I look forward to seeing how graciously you accept defeat when you're proven wrong. If you'd been paying attention at all to recent history - specifically FFXIV 1.0 up through 1.23, after Yoshi-P took over, and the fact that its population tripled... after they reinstated subs - you'd see the indications that you already have been proven wrong about just how willing people are to pay a sub when the game is worth it to them (I'm sure you'll find some way to spin and dismiss that, too, right?).

Or who knows, maybe you'll have the integrity to stand up and say, "Okay, you know what... I was wrong. I was way too confident in my opinions, didn't know nearly as much as I thought I did, and my assertions were proven false".

But here's what I think will happen... you'll never admit you were wrong. You'll just keep moving the goal-post, insisting that at "some indistinct and uncertain future time, XIV will go F2P." Even if it's 12 years down the line, you'll still be gloating about "how right you were".

Should be fun to see.

 

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5333

7/19/13 1:00:28 PM#420
Originally posted by Ayulin
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
 

The times have changed as well in the past 2 years. New customers are picking F2P because they have so many games to pick from. You wana keep a flow of new people trying your game in this new market get with the times. It will happen.

I have your posts bookmarked.

It's going to be entertaining to see how quickly you'll be spinning when your "expert predictions" don't come to pass, because you don't have all the answers, you don't have your thumb on the pulse of the MMO industry, and you do not and can not claim to speak for every MMO gamer out there, what they will or will not pay for, what they prefer or why. Yet, that's what you continue to do when you argue these broad-sweeping generalizations as though they're irrefutable fact.

John Smedley, a man on the inside, with years of first-hand MMO industry experience, seeing it go through its changes in real-time, as he tried to keep SOE's games relevant throughout them, predicted that TOR would be the last AAA MMO released as P2P; that subs would become a thing of the past. He was wrong.

But somehow, you... an arm-chair forum-warrior with an opinion... have it all figured out. Please forgive me if my confidence in your predictive abilities isn't exactly peaking.

So I look forward to seeing how graciously you accept defeat when you're proven wrong. If you'd been paying attention at all to recent history - specifically FFXIV 1.0 up through 1.23, after Yoshi-P took over, and the fact that its population tripled... after they reinstated subs - you'd see the indications that you already have been proven wrong about just how willing people are to pay a sub when the game is worth it to them). Nothing's quite so fun as seeing a forum know-it-all back-pedaling, revising history and attempting to spin their own previous arguments when they prove to be false, trying to make it sound like what they said... isn't what they actually said..

Or who knows, maybe you'll have the integrity to stand up and say, "Okay, you know what... I was wrong. I was way too confident in my opinions, didn't know nearly as much as I thought I did, and my assertions were proven false".

But here's what I think will happen... you'll never admit you were wrong. You'll just keep moving the goal-post, insisting that at "some indistinct and uncertain future time, XIV will go F2P." Even if it's 12 years down the line, you'll still be gloating about "how right you were".

Should be fun to see.

 

Times have changed, that much is very definitely true, as personally i have never seen so many mediocre F2P games on the market, and its no surprise that people flit from one game to another, i dare say few of them remember the game they were even playing 6 months ago with any degree of certainty.

And why would they, after a while they probably become just a blur. Sometimes i think the fact that they invest money and time into a game gives them an additional attachment, FF XI is still after all P2P, a fact which seems to be consistently overlooked - WoW and Eve are not the only long running P2P games out there after all.

Whether F2P is a passing fad is probably irrelevant, although i wouldnt rule it out as it does have several major flaws, P2W just being one of them.  But FF XIV is increasingly looking like a game i will be playing for a long time to come, and its P2P, and thats just fine by me.

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