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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Who wants camping back?

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  thexrated

Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/04
Posts: 1379

7/17/13 5:02:08 PM#281
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Camping is a way to force people to interact, but it is not "nice" because i don't think it is fun gameplay for many. Otherwise, it won't be eliminate from the market such a long time ago.

 

Forced camping, like forced grouping, doesn't force anyone to interact.  Most PUGs never say a word to each other.  It only forces people into close proximity, it doesn't force people to do anything together.  I could join a camp, know I have an hour until respawn, and go watch TV until then.  I could multitask in the background.  I could read a book.  There's nothing that says I have to actually talk to anyone in the game.  Heck, I could chat with a friend elsewhere in the game if I wanted to.

It's just an absurd idea that putting you next to someone by force is going to make you want to interact with them.

I agree, most of the camping in MMOs that I have done was with people I already socialized with. I might get to know some of them better, but I hardly made new friends there.

That said. I think it is a nice feature that added something to do. MMOs need to have a variety of things to do and this was a fun feature.

"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3275

7/17/13 8:15:40 PM#282
Originally posted by KBishop
Originally posted by Chieftan

Alright I think I understand what some people are thinking.

 

If you were a LOOT WHORE in Everquest then yeah, I'm sure you don't want camping back becuase you were willing to sit on your ass for 8 hours wating for a negligible gear drop.

So no, this definitely isn't about adding rare loot drops to bait some idiots into staying in one spot for marathon sessions. 

I'm talking about actual gameplay, just setting up in one spot and gaining decent exp in a group instead of blowing through dungeons or doing easy solo quests.  There should be reasonable loot drops but no, I'm not advocating rare spawns for people to fight over.  It most definitely does not need to be done that way ever again.

Most MMORPG players don't play for more than 2 hours a day on average. Having any sort of camping system almost completely shuts them out from even getting gear from a camped mob.

I don't know how many camped exp based games you've played, but in the ones I played, the situation often went a lot like this:

You get a group set up, you head to primo spot A. It's completely filled

You then head to primo spot B which is not as good as A. It's also completely filled.

You then head to primo spot C which is worse than A and B. It's filled.

You then head to spot D and find that the exp is pretty terrible and the party disbands.

Camp EXP is fun ONLY in the off chance that you are in the prime locations at a time when no other people are exping. The rest of the time its like a bunch of hungry dogs just searching for scraps before giving up.

And Since you are using camping as a GROUP activity, how many group activities exist in WoW , Rift or other games at any particular level between 1 to max..... There are never more then 1 or 2 dungeons you can instance that is worth a shit... So are you telling us that repeating those same 2 dungeons is exciting?  Really?   Just asking.. When was the last time you played an alt, used the LFG finder and found one in short order NOT being end game..  I never found a game where the queue to get into a group wasn't an HOUR long or more..   END GAME dungeon grinds don't count..

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

7/17/13 8:26:21 PM#283
Originally posted by Waterlily

Why would you run towards mobs if you could make the mobs come towards you....pulling them worked better.


 

Who says anything about running towards mobs. You can pull and move, pull and move. Why stay in only one room to pull? That is boring (to me).

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3275

7/17/13 8:27:33 PM#284
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Shadowguy64

 

What a nightmare. Who in their right mind would play such a game? Especially if that item was REQUIRED to progress.

People who like interacting.

It's a simple mechanical problem, pressing your forward button non-stop doesn't allow you to type.

A camp does, because it's static. It's one of the reasons EQ was such a social game.

Everything in EQ consisted out of camps except for the instances.

There's no big difference between running to mobs or letting a puller bring the mobs to you, but it allows 5 out of 6 people to talk who would otherwise be pressing their forward button non-stop.

You could argue that doing that is actually a nightmare, camping is a more sane approach.

Exactly Lilly.. having 6 people all pressing the forward button is insane to me when in EQ, only 1 puller had to be active, and bring the mobs back to the static camp..... EQ was more effective in my opinion :)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

7/17/13 8:28:13 PM#285
Originally posted by Rydeson
So are you telling us that repeating those same 2 dungeons is exciting? 

Way MORE exciting than  pulling the same mob again and again (ie. camping) in the same room.

At least you get to see different rooms and different mobs. I am surprised you will think that pulling the same mob in the same room more exciting than pulling from TWO dungeons (which probably have 10x the rooms, and 10x different variety of mobs).

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

7/17/13 8:31:09 PM#286
Originally posted by xeniar

 

This. Camping wasnt just sitting there and chainpull mobs. That is the defenition of camping yes but it also was exploring. moving from campspot to campspot you came across structures and intresting mobs (rare spawns spawned on iregular timers on normal mob spots) wich otherwise you would not have seen. And being adventurous speccialy when spots where filled you created new spots. By exploring in regions few have visited. 

Sitting not moving is the definition of camping. If you move from spot to spot, you may as well be running a wow dungeon. It is exactly like that.

honestly people who not ever have done this are missing out of a good social/entertainment experience. 

People like Narius think that this issnt populair because the market would have created it. But that is a lie. The entire new playerbase and im talking about the WoW kiddies wich is 80% or more of our current mmo population have never played a game wich gave this deep social interactive gameplay. How can anyone say that people would not like it?

But EQ players have experienced the "magic" of camping and a large number jump ship to WOW. Heck, people complained about it even BEFORE other alternatives appeared.
No dev is stupid enough to try it again.

 

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3688

7/17/13 8:33:58 PM#287
Originally posted by thexrated
Originally posted by Cephus404

Forced camping, like forced grouping, doesn't force anyone to interact.  Most PUGs never say a word to each other.  It only forces people into close proximity, it doesn't force people to do anything together.  I could join a camp, know I have an hour until respawn, and go watch TV until then.  I could multitask in the background.  I could read a book.  There's nothing that says I have to actually talk to anyone in the game.  Heck, I could chat with a friend elsewhere in the game if I wanted to.

It's just an absurd idea that putting you next to someone by force is going to make you want to interact with them.

I agree, most of the camping in MMOs that I have done was with people I already socialized with. I might get to know some of them better, but I hardly made new friends there.

That said. I think it is a nice feature that added something to do. MMOs need to have a variety of things to do and this was a fun feature.

Depends on how you're camping, I guess.  In AO, groups would "camp" in Shadowlands and run up and down in a line, wiping everything out, then running back to the beginning.  It's constant action, but that's more farming than camping.  Camping is sitting around waiting for a particular mob or group of mobs to respawn so you can kill them and get back to waiting.  This was especially true for high level mobs that had a long respawn time.  Camping didn't give you anything to do, it gave you a lot of time to do nothing.  You couldn't leave, you couldn't go play the game elsewhere, you had to sit there and do nothing, waiting for that moment when there was something to do.  I see no reason to think that I'd talk to anyone who was also sitting around waiting unless I knew them already and had something in common with them, which rarely happens in MMOs anymore.  I'd much rather put the game in the background and do something else worthwhile.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  Dzone

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/12
Posts: 308

7/17/13 8:50:30 PM#288

I really enjoyed camping. At the end of my ffxi days, I played a bard. It was so much fun in xp parties. I got to cast mages balled on the mages in the back, then nights minne and that other song for the front line, forgot the name. Then I'd go out and pull back a mob. While using some other songs on certain party members individually. Yep loved that job, I was constantly on the move and doing something. But I was also only in a general area and new were my other people were the whole time.

 

In these newer mmo's I played i'd get lost from my group and I hate that.

 

To bad I don't get to experience that anymore, and yes I definatly enjoyed camping. I loved hanging out in an area for hours with people ingame. I hate new games were im running around by myself just doing quest and killing stuff, its so boring and lonely to me when im doing everything alone some days.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

7/17/13 8:58:25 PM#289
Originally posted by Dzone

 

To bad I don't get to experience that anymore, and yes I definatly enjoyed camping. I loved hanging out in an area for hours with people ingame. I hate new games were im running around by myself just doing quest and killing stuff, its so boring and lonely to me when im doing everything alone some days.

Then why do you do it? It is not like you cannot group in MMOs. It seems very odd that you are constantly doing stuff you do not like. The solo option is there for people who like solo, not for you.

In WOW, it is easy to just hit LFD, and group up and run dungeons. It is in fact, the faster way to level than just solo questing.

  Shadowguy64

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/13
Posts: 880

7/17/13 9:00:30 PM#290
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rydeson
So are you telling us that repeating those same 2 dungeons is exciting? 

Way MORE exciting than  pulling the same mob again and again (ie. camping) in the same room.

At least you get to see different rooms and different mobs. I am surprised you will think that pulling the same mob in the same room more exciting than pulling from TWO dungeons (which probably have 10x the rooms, and 10x different variety of mobs).

 

Haha. The logic and reasoning card has finally been played in this thread!!! 

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3275

7/17/13 11:29:17 PM#291
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rydeson
So are you telling us that repeating those same 2 dungeons is exciting? 

Way MORE exciting than  pulling the same mob again and again (ie. camping) in the same room.

At least you get to see different rooms and different mobs. I am surprised you will think that pulling the same mob in the same room more exciting than pulling from TWO dungeons (which probably have 10x the rooms, and 10x different variety of mobs).

WOW.. really?  Let me know when a roaming Sand Giant can spawn in those static dungeons and cause havoc to you group..  That is one thing you have to love about instances.. They are so predictable that even Stevie Wonder can go thru them.. Have a nice day.. :)

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1360

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

7/17/13 11:47:09 PM#292


Originally posted by Waterlily
You're far more likely to talk to others if you aren't busy pressing your forward key.


Yes it all boils down to that. Well said, and thanks for the visual aid!


Originally posted by Rydeson
.. That is one thing you have to love about instances.. They are so predictable that even Stevie Wonder can go thru them.. Have a nice day.. :)


ROFL so true.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/18/13 12:02:57 AM#293
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by Waterlily
You're far more likely to talk to others if you aren't busy pressing your forward key.

 


Yes it all boils down to that. Well said, and thanks for the visual aid!

 

  

 Except a lot, an awful lot of the talking these days is on vent.  I don't need to press a key for that.

That, in my opinion, is at least partially responsible for the seeming quietness of groups today.  Your not talking with them because they are on vent or something else and your not.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

7/18/13 1:08:59 AM#294
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by KBishop
Originally posted by Chieftan

Alright I think I understand what some people are thinking.

 

If you were a LOOT WHORE in Everquest then yeah, I'm sure you don't want camping back becuase you were willing to sit on your ass for 8 hours wating for a negligible gear drop.

So no, this definitely isn't about adding rare loot drops to bait some idiots into staying in one spot for marathon sessions. 

I'm talking about actual gameplay, just setting up in one spot and gaining decent exp in a group instead of blowing through dungeons or doing easy solo quests.  There should be reasonable loot drops but no, I'm not advocating rare spawns for people to fight over.  It most definitely does not need to be done that way ever again.

Most MMORPG players don't play for more than 2 hours a day on average. Having any sort of camping system almost completely shuts them out from even getting gear from a camped mob.

I don't know how many camped exp based games you've played, but in the ones I played, the situation often went a lot like this:

You get a group set up, you head to primo spot A. It's completely filled

You then head to primo spot B which is not as good as A. It's also completely filled.

You then head to primo spot C which is worse than A and B. It's filled.

You then head to spot D and find that the exp is pretty terrible and the party disbands.

Camp EXP is fun ONLY in the off chance that you are in the prime locations at a time when no other people are exping. The rest of the time its like a bunch of hungry dogs just searching for scraps before giving up.

And Since you are using camping as a GROUP activity, how many group activities exist in WoW , Rift or other games at any particular level between 1 to max..... There are never more then 1 or 2 dungeons you can instance that is worth a shit... So are you telling us that repeating those same 2 dungeons is exciting?  Really?   Just asking.. When was the last time you played an alt, used the LFG finder and found one in short order NOT being end game..  I never found a game where the queue to get into a group wasn't an HOUR long or more..   END GAME dungeon grinds don't count..

So WoW's inability to have scaling dungeons is reasons to say that instances are inherently faulty?

Having a camping game doesn't somehow equal more group activity. Being a camp or instance game still amounts to the same amount of activity: EXP groups and farm groups. Being a camp game or an instance game doesn't add or subtract from that. Being solo centric or group centric will, however.

I don't know if you have played WoW recently but getting into pre endgame dungeons takes absolutely no time at all. Getting into a LFG takes me 5 minutes, as opposed to endgame as a pure dps where it takes me up to almost an hour. While the latter point doesn't refute your overall statement, the former point does.

Those are completely irrelevant arguments though, because I could just as easily say "How long does it take you to get a camp group for anything pre endgame in such and such a game?" Thats obviously not a fault of instances or camping, but the natural community decay from low/mid level to end game.

 

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

7/18/13 1:18:32 AM#295
Originally posted by xeniar

This. Camping wasnt just sitting there and chainpull mobs. That is the defenition of camping yes but it also was exploring. moving from campspot to campspot you came across structures and intresting mobs (rare spawns spawned on iregular timers on normal mob spots) wich otherwise you would not have seen. And being adventurous speccialy when spots where filled you created new spots. By exploring in regions few have visited. 

honestly people who not ever have done this are missing out of a good social/entertainment experience. 

People like Narius think that this issnt populair because the market would have created it. But that is a lie. The entire new playerbase and im talking about the WoW kiddies wich is 80% or more of our current mmo population have never played a game wich gave this deep social interactive gameplay. How can anyone say that people would not like it?

It's like someone claiming that they don't like mcdonalds despite not ever having set a foot inside the place.

rediculous

pretty sure if you're roaming around a zone, you're a terribly inefficient group. Most every group was pretty much sitting in ONE place for as long as possible. You would never move around from an area where the pickens are good because you would not only stray further from a prime location, but your movement gave others a chance to take your spot.

You are drawing some grossly faulty conclusions.

You claim that camping was a chance to explore, and thus I can infer that you think that instances are not a chance to explore. This is obviously false for multiple reasons, first and foremost being that instances don't somehow subtract openworlds. If anything, instances provide more exploration because you have open worlds on top of many other individual zones.

Secondly, you sound as if camping was a great social aspect. I don't know if you've ever camped a rare monster with a multiple hour spawn window with a guild, because the interactions were anything but great. They were nonexistent. 90% of the campers were AFK while waiting for the spawn.

Lastly, you seem to think that the only reasons why camping have faded away is because there's a new demographic, while completely missing the obvious glaring flaws in camping that make it fucking terrible game design. Camping wasn't faded out because of a new generation of gamers, it was faded out because it was awful. The only reason it existed in the first place is because MMORPG's were still in their infancy.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3275

7/18/13 1:44:53 AM#296

     KB.. and others.. I don't understand why you are so argumentative about people wanting an old fashion form of camping as an alternative form of playing..  NO ONE in this thread as stated they want to take away your private instance.. If that is what floats YOUR boat, then go for it, and no one is stopping you.. What I and others have said is that we would like camping to be taken into consideration and added to the open world zones.. YOU do your thing, and we'll do ours..  

     You and others are under this misconception that a cafe can ONLY sell hamburgers (which is what you like) and can't sell hot dogs....... I say sell BOTH.. Right?  So, go click on LFG and jump into that no wait queue for a entry level dungeon, and I and others will go camp the orcs, dervs or whatever we feel like.

    OH btw.. you bring up ventrillo and other forms of audio chat.. That only applies to those people that have the server and password to players you are already aquainted with.. I believe what the other person was talking about was chatting with NEW strangers..  And you can't do multiple vent servers at once.. Vent , Team Speak or whatever you wish to use is basically for private chat with existing friends..  Anyways..

  KBishop

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 205

7/18/13 1:55:53 AM#297
Originally posted by Rydeson

     KB.. and others.. I don't understand why you are so argumentative about people wanting an old fashion form of camping as an alternative form of playing..  NO ONE in this thread as stated they want to take away your private instance.. If that is what floats YOUR boat, then go for it, and no one is stopping you.. What I and others have said is that we would like camping to be taken into consideration and added to the open world zones.. YOU do your thing, and we'll do ours..  

     You and others are under this misconception that a cafe can ONLY sell hamburgers (which is what you like) and can't sell hot dogs....... I say sell BOTH.. Right?  So, go click on LFG and jump into that no wait queue for a entry level dungeon, and I and others will go camp the orcs, dervs or whatever we feel like.

WoW did just this during Classic and TBC. There were camped bosses as well as intanced raids. The end result is pretty obvious as to which direction WoW went too.

The problem with camping is that it almost always causes adverse gameplay. It ultimately ends up resulting in a bunch of people from multiple different guilds all waiting for 1 mob. This means that a LOT of people are going home empty handed. This isn't adding in other bogus issues such as spawn windows, respawn times, etc. This is also not getting into the fact that it theoretically encourages cheating (those who have bots to claim faster than normal people are going to see larger mob claims)

If you want camp bosses that arent valuable then thats fine. Again, WoW did/does this now, and every single rare spawn gets virtually no action in comparison to raid bosses.

If you are talking about EXP then there is possibility, however this would ultimately come to an abrupt stop once you hit endgame, so I don't know how effective this would be if you wanted to integrate both camping and instances.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3275

7/18/13 2:11:05 AM#298
Originally posted by KBishop
Originally posted by Rydeson

     KB.. and others.. I don't understand why you are so argumentative about people wanting an old fashion form of camping as an alternative form of playing..  NO ONE in this thread as stated they want to take away your private instance.. If that is what floats YOUR boat, then go for it, and no one is stopping you.. What I and others have said is that we would like camping to be taken into consideration and added to the open world zones.. YOU do your thing, and we'll do ours..  

     You and others are under this misconception that a cafe can ONLY sell hamburgers (which is what you like) and can't sell hot dogs....... I say sell BOTH.. Right?  So, go click on LFG and jump into that no wait queue for a entry level dungeon, and I and others will go camp the orcs, dervs or whatever we feel like.

WoW did just this during Classic and TBC. There were camped bosses as well as intanced raids. The end result is pretty obvious as to which direction WoW went too.

The problem with camping is that it almost always causes adverse gameplay. It ultimately ends up resulting in a bunch of people from multiple different guilds all waiting for 1 mob. This means that a LOT of people are going home empty handed. This isn't adding in other bogus issues such as spawn windows, respawn times, etc. This is also not getting into the fact that it theoretically encourages cheating (those who have bots to claim faster than normal people are going to see larger mob claims)

If you want camp bosses that arent valuable then thats fine. Again, WoW did/does this now, and every single rare spawn gets virtually no action in comparison to raid bosses.

If you are talking about EXP then there is possibility, however this would ultimately come to an abrupt stop once you hit endgame, so I don't know how effective this would be if you wanted to integrate both camping and instances.

     You can try and sell that to someone that doesn't know better.. You even contradict yourself above..  Second paragraph you stated "It ultimately ends up resulting in a bunch of people from multiple guilds all waiting for one 1 mob".. Then turned around and said, "WoW did this now, and every single rare spawn gets virtually no action"....... So first you say it was popular, then said it's not.. You need to make up your mind..  And for the record, you have NO clue why Blizzard does or doesn't do anything.. It is simply your opinion why Bliz might do something, and I have mine..  TYVM and have a nice day..

     If you honestly believe that end game is all about INSTANCE grinds.. then we really have nothing more to discuss :)

  twrule

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 1260

7/18/13 2:30:56 AM#299
Originally posted by xeniar
Originally posted by kjempff
Originally posted by twrule

After reading this thread, I'm starting to think people who like exploration and a sense of adventure in their games like me are a rare or dying breed.

A developer handcrafts an entire huge virtual world for us, where no matter where you go, there will be new things to see and find...and people want to sit tucked away in 1 little corner (maybe a specific 4-5 corners through the entire leveling process as the case may be - always the same 4-5 because the community has designated those the most efficient xp camps).

'Hunting' named mobs is one thing, if done in a certain way that actually makes it a 'hunt', not a 'camp' - but as a major or the main source of xp by design?

Hmm well this is my experience from Eq only. Camping took me all over the world, camping allowed me to see places I would never have gone, and sitting still in one place was like a safe spot from which to experience the world. Often the search for a camp spot would take me places, often I/we would move camp spots. Camping allowed the mind to settle instead of constantly be on the move, and therefore to better experience the world.

Sure there were a bunch of popular spots for xp, but talk with someone who played on a different server and they often have other spots.. playing progression opened my eyes to many new places and I am sure I opened others eyes aswell. The vague quest descriptions and errors was a kind of exploring, trying to set up camp to get a drop from a mob, fail and try a new spot, all exploration. Invissing and "looking around" was much used aswell. I beleive You need to remember the camps that weren't just xp grind places, but the many quest drop camps aswell as getting to those camps made You explore... well again this is all eq specific.

This. Camping wasnt just sitting there and chainpull mobs. That is the defenition of camping yes but it also was exploring. moving from campspot to campspot you came across structures and intresting mobs (rare spawns spawned on iregular timers on normal mob spots) wich otherwise you would not have seen. And being adventurous speccialy when spots where filled you created new spots. By exploring in regions few have visited. 

honestly people who not ever have done this are missing out of a good social/entertainment experience. 

People like Narius think that this issnt populair because the market would have created it. But that is a lie. The entire new playerbase and im talking about the WoW kiddies wich is 80% or more of our current mmo population have never played a game wich gave this deep social interactive gameplay. How can anyone say that people would not like it?

It's like someone claiming that they don't like mcdonalds despite not ever having set a foot inside the place.

rediculous

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying this. Any exploration you do when 'looking for camps', you could have done more of by *not* stopping in the same spot for 8 hours (whether you actually would have or not personally is irrelevant). Sure I'm not saying we need to be constantly running - appreciating a new area fully, needing to hold one's ground against the tough monsters in the area to slowly create an opening to move forward are fine, scoping out the area for useful items/resources, or just catching one's breath are all fine. But it doesn't take hours of sitting in the same spot for my 'mind to settle' so that I will somehow appreciate it more.

I have definitely experienced games where camping was the main form of XP; I am speaking from experience here. I don't see how adventuring in a band across the world has inherently less potential for socializing. If anything you are more likely to run out of interesting things to talk about after you've been killing the same crabs in the same spot for hours on end, and people zone out as they mechanically kill mobs.

Long story short, there were times when camping worked out okay, but that doesn't mean a game designed around open world adventuring in bands wouldn't have been even better in the regards that made camping enjoyable.

  Waterlily

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2885

7/18/13 2:39:48 AM#300
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Except a lot, an awful lot of the talking these days is on vent.  I don't need to press a key for that.

Good luck with that on a European server with 20 languages. Typing is pretty much the only way for everyone to understand each other.

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