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EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Concept: How EQN could have open-world PVP and strongly limit griefing

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190 posts found
  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 922

7/13/13 10:58:49 PM#141
Originally posted by Trudge34
Not to mention gallus, we don't know what Smed considers sandbox. If they reskinned EQ1 and launched it like it was pre Luclin people would probably consider that almost sandbox compared to most of what we have today. Let's not foeget the "essence of the change" they were making according to the Smedley interview was upgraded AI to make the world feel alive. I really don't think we will see a helluva lot more innovation than that.

I agree.  Sandbox can mean many things.  We don't know exactly what they meant by sandbox yet.

I'm "expecting":

A strong crafting system, player housing and city building.

A way for players to create content (items, quests, adventure campaigns, roleplaying events, etc)

A really cool combat system (Probably action based)

More advanced NPC AI (NPCs that are more interactive than what we had before)

Open world pvp (on our own servers)

A large open world that has some sort of dynamic event system.

I have a list of other things I'm "hoping for" but the things above are what I am expecting.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 922

7/13/13 11:00:59 PM#142
Originally posted by Bidwood

 

I can't believe you're referencing DayZ which is one of the most hardcore PVP games with full loot and permadeath. And a PVP sandbox MMO can't be successful?

The zombie/shooter crowd is far different from the MMORPG crowd.  But you already knew that.

 

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Aceshighhhh

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/11
Posts: 186

7/13/13 11:12:06 PM#143
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
These silly arguments claiming SOE shouldn't or wouldn't make a PvP-focused game because it won't "make enough money" is absolutely ridiculous.

If SOE wanted to make the most money, they wouldn't be developing a niche sandbox MMORPG. End of story.

I'm sorry I must of missed that quote from Smed or the devs.

Can you find where they said they're making a niche game?

Sandbox does not = niche.  Minecraft and DayZ proved that you could get million's of player's attention with sandbox game play.

Or are you referring to someone at SOE specifically using that word, or something like it, when talking about EQN?

I think you're having some trouble with your definitions here.

Niche: "A niche market is the subset of the market on which a specific product is focusing. The market niche defines the specific product features aimed at satisfying specific market needs"

Sandbox MMORPG's are a distinct segment of the market catered toward a particular group of people. And the fact is, sandbox MMO's don't make nearly as much money as other sectors of the market, such as the themepark/casual games. The games you listed are not MMORPG'S. If SOE TRULY wanted to make money, they would designing casual games alongside companies like Zynga. There is hardly any money to be had in sandbox mmo's compared to casual games. I've made this point many times but people refuse to listen.

Here are some facts for you:

EVE and CCP Games earned a total revenue of 66 million dollars in 2012.

http://evenews24.com/2012/02/23/eve-online-66-million-dollars-in-2012-talks-new-business-models-ipo/

Zynga earned a total revenue of 1.2 billion dollars in the same year.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/2/5/3956032/zynga-2012-revenue-1-2b-up-12-percent

Creating a casual/themepark MMORPG would go completely against SOE's philosophy, this would include casualizing designs. The facts are showing that SOE obviously isn't in it to roll out the most cash, so making silly arguments about certain design choices like open-pvp not making enough money are completely irrelevant.

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 922

7/13/13 11:24:35 PM#144
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh
These silly arguments claiming SOE shouldn't or wouldn't make a PvP-focused game because it won't "make enough money" is absolutely ridiculous.

If SOE wanted to make the most money, they wouldn't be developing a niche sandbox MMORPG. End of story.

I'm sorry I must of missed that quote from Smed or the devs.

Can you find where they said they're making a niche game?

Sandbox does not = niche.  Minecraft and DayZ proved that you could get million's of player's attention with sandbox game play.

Or are you referring to someone at SOE specifically using that word, or something like it, when talking about EQN?

I think you're having some trouble with your definitions here.

Niche: "A niche market is the subset of the market on which a specific product is focusing. The market niche defines the specific product features aimed at satisfying specific market needs"

Sandbox MMORPG's are a distinct segment of the market catered toward a particular group of people. And the fact is, sandbox MMO's don't make nearly as much money as other sectors of the market, such as the themepark/casual games. The games you listed are not MMORPG'S. If SOE TRULY wanted to make money, they would designing casual games alongside companies like Zynga. There is hardly any money to be had in sandbox mmo's compared to casual games. I've made this point many times but people refuse to listen.

Here are some facts for you:

EVE and CCP Games earned a total revenue of 66 million dollars in 2012.

Zynga earned a total revenue of 1.2 billion dollars in the same year.

Creating a casual/themepark MMORPG would go completely against SOE's philosophy, this would include casualizing designs. The facts are showing that SOE obviously isn't in it to roll out the most cash, so making silly arguments about certain design choices like open-pvp not making enough money are completely irrelevant.

The only person here that's confused is you and you'll understand why in a few days.

Niche in common use means a very* specific subset of the market.  Call of duty is a shooter, but no one would say it's niche just because it's aimed targeting a specific genre audience (FPS players).  That's just not how the word is used.

SOE's EQN is their prized flagship.  They're making it to show the world that they can be revolutionary and bring in a large player base.  Creating some sort of specific, forced pvp experience is not going to be happening.  PVP is going to be a part of the EQN experience (If you want it), but it's not going to be forced on the PVE player base.  It'll either be seperate from the PVE portion of the world (AKA GW2) or it will be seperated by servers.

Don't worry. I'll be back on 2 August to create a thread talking about my previous predictions and I'll match it up with what we learn from SOE live.  

Also, I never said anything about casual or themepark.  Don't know where you got that from lol.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Bidwood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 537

 
OP  7/14/13 9:57:42 AM#145

Gallus85...  you know about as much as the rest of us about EQN, which is pretty much nothing. All we have to go by are hints by Smedley, which suggest player conflict will be an important pillar of the game. (In other words, not something you can simply chop off on one server without breaking the design.)

 

I'm looking forward to seeing you talk your way out of what gets revealed on Aug. 2. What will be your reaction if ice-vortex and I are right?

 

Edit: If what you've been saying all along is true, you'll probably be worried about what it means for SOE's future but personally thrilled to have so much emphasis go into PVP.
  Greez

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/03/13
Posts: 104

7/14/13 10:49:20 AM#146
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

Here are some facts for you:

EVE and CCP Games earned a total revenue of 66 million dollars in 2012.

http://evenews24.com/2012/02/23/eve-online-66-million-dollars-in-2012-talks-new-business-models-ipo/

Zynga earned a total revenue of 1.2 billion dollars in the same year.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/2/5/3956032/zynga-2012-revenue-1-2b-up-12-percent

Creating a casual/themepark MMORPG would go completely against SOE's philosophy, this would include casualizing designs. The facts are showing that SOE obviously isn't in it to roll out the most cash, so making silly arguments about certain design choices like open-pvp not making enough money are completely irrelevant.

Well, I hope you never enter science with that "logic".

You're comparing a company that basically has one game, running on subscriptions, which is built with the specific intent to alienate huge chunks of the playerbase, to a company that runs a bunch of F2P projects linked to social networks and running on various cash grabs. That's not even getting into the fact that there are different ways to run a company. There are so many variables in this that to even begin to draw conclusions about sandbox markets from this is just stupid.

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 922

7/14/13 10:55:42 AM#147
Originally posted by Bidwood

Gallus85...  you know about as much as the rest of us about EQN, which is pretty much nothing. All we have to go by are hints by Smedley, which suggest player conflict will be an important pillar of the game. (In other words, not something you can simply chop off on one server without breaking the design.)

 

I'm looking forward to seeing you talk your way out of what gets revealed on Aug. 2. What will be your reaction if ice-vortex and I are right?

 

Edit: If what you've been saying all along is true, you'll probably be worried about what it means for SOE's future but personally thrilled to have so much emphasis go into PVP.

I will end up being right in most/all of what I've been saying about EQN, and there's a reason why.

If* for some reason I am wrong about the PVP (If PVP is forced on to the population), I will gladly admit I was wrong, and my wife and I will be happily enjoying the game, because we are PVPers. (Especially her, I can't even get her to try out PVE-only games of any kind.  She won't even play Skyrim because she can't "kill scrubs" in it)

I would not be worried about SOE's future in any scenario.  They already print money from a truck load of other titles.  EQN could bomb and only get 50k peek subscribers and they would still be fine economically as far as the company itself is concerned.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 922

7/14/13 10:57:17 AM#148
Originally posted by Greez
Originally posted by Aceshighhhh

Here are some facts for you:

EVE and CCP Games earned a total revenue of 66 million dollars in 2012.

http://evenews24.com/2012/02/23/eve-online-66-million-dollars-in-2012-talks-new-business-models-ipo/

Zynga earned a total revenue of 1.2 billion dollars in the same year.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/2/5/3956032/zynga-2012-revenue-1-2b-up-12-percent

Creating a casual/themepark MMORPG would go completely against SOE's philosophy, this would include casualizing designs. The facts are showing that SOE obviously isn't in it to roll out the most cash, so making silly arguments about certain design choices like open-pvp not making enough money are completely irrelevant.

Well, I hope you never enter science with that "logic".

LOL.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Lokero

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 324

7/14/13 1:41:26 PM#149

I personally would love the one server for all setup, versus the multiple fractured servers.  It's just better on so many levels.  You never have to worry about population decline or ending up on a dead server.

And, the world is always populated, even later on down the road when there's 10 expansions with tons of zones.  Let's be honest, that's the biggest problem with expanding MMOs.  The bigger they get, the more empty they become.  Which, in turn, turns off new players, etc.

That's why I'd love to see everyone together.  But, I know alot of people prefer the segregation of PvP/PvE.  So, it depends if SOE wants to take a hard line stance about PvP as a central part of the world/game or not.

I guess ideally they could make 2 total servers to choose from.  PvP or Non-PvP.  It would really depend how they wanted to approach the game and where their direction truly lies.

One server is always going to be the best system to me, but they'd have to put alot of creativity and thought into it to make everyone happy.   I guess we won't know what their design direction is with this game for another few weeks.  I think the only way we'd realistically see a one world server is if they label this a PvP-centric game, which I'm doubting will happen.

Still, I just hate having the playerbase divided amongst dozens of servers.  I've hated it since I started playing MMOs.   I would imagine it'd be a heck of a lot easier to focus on one giant server when it comes to being able to put out lots of random little GM events and such, also.

I guess the real question should be, if SoE decides to make the PvP a central aspect of the game, and there are no pure PvE servers, how will it be implemented.

Side note:  PvP fights need to be lasting, so that people can defend themselves better and whatnot.  Griefing becomes much simpler when you can drop people in one or two attacks/rounds.  I absolutely hate the PvP where it's like playing an FPS and the fight is over in 5-10 seconds.  I would think slower paced combat would make alot of borderline people happier.

  Panzerbase

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 299

7/14/13 1:42:53 PM#150
Or they can simply have a PVE server, thanks for the long winded idea but no thanks. 
  Gallus85

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 922

7/14/13 1:54:48 PM#151
Originally posted by Lokero

I personally would love the one server for all setup, versus the multiple fractured servers.  It's just better on so many levels.  You never have to worry about population decline or ending up on a dead server.

I agree that dead servers suck, but frankly that's not even going to be an issue.

EQN is F2P.  Lets face it, it's going to be a free to play triple AAA game experience.  SWTOR is more of the same, many of us hardcore MMORPG sandbox crafting forum rats did not appreciate SWTOR, but even it has millions of players as a free to player game.

If the servers had PVE, RP, PVP, PVPRP, and different servers for different locations (US E, US W, EU, Aussy, etc) it's still going to have thousand and thousands of players per sever.

More than enough to keep you happy.

And seriously, why would you even want to be on a server with a buncha PVE players?  They don't want to pvp you.  They don't want anything to do with it.  Is that the kind of community you're looking for?  One that pisses on a whole demographic?

This thread is a fail, PVE only is going to be an option.  PVP servers are going to be an option.  This thread needs to be burned.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  User Deleted
7/16/13 2:34:27 PM#152

if they get rid of the whole leveling system and huge equipment strenght differences that brings all the unequality and focus more on player skill it might reduce griefers because we all know that they are just insecure and immature cowards who are just venting their stupidity if they have to take an equal risk when they decide to gank or grief somebody they wont even consider it... well if they are just assholes then its entirely different matter, if there is a ghost walk and a type of shrine area that you can get ressurected bah i dont know

but then again if they can perfectly do this "dark side" and "good side" thing and balance it, the griefers cant grief in "good side" towns or regions and vice versa, what do you consider griefing anyway? same player kills you 7 times in one minute? or 7 times in 1 hour? its all about the intervals the kills occur is it not? so if a player kills you and you have to ghost walk for 30secs to the nearby shrine to ressurect (safe zone?) and you leave it and you are killed again is this considered griefing? or just stupidity on your part for leaving the safe zone?

well my final opinion is that they will divide PvP to zones, pvp zones and pve zones

  Lorska

Novice Member

Joined: 8/27/03
Posts: 75

7/17/13 3:25:32 AM#153
I completely agree with the OP in wanting a system like this implemented into MMO games.  What has bothered me for years is that no developer seems willing to do it despite it being very technologically and conceptually feasible. 
  loopback1199

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/05
Posts: 204

7/17/13 3:29:46 AM#154
The OP just basically posted a description of The Repopulation lol!
  Bidwood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 537

 
OP  7/17/13 6:30:44 PM#155
@OfficialFlow - I agree that it's important to get rid of the huge strength differences. Would love to see a combat system that requires more skill  to master. Players who need something to achieve could focus on taking and holding territory, lording over amazing palaces and treasures, etc.

@Lorska - Thanks for the kind words. =)

As for why more devs haven't tried to do this, as @loopback1199 suggests, we're seeing more of them move in that direction. I didn't know until reading the replies to this thread that both The Repopulation and Camelot Unchained will have very similar design. However, I'm holding out hope for EQN as a triple-A game on Playstation 4. It could be the perfect storm of everything I've wanted for so long. ;)
  madazz

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1245

7/17/13 6:33:43 PM#156
Originally posted by Aelious
One shard that everyone actually shares only works for EvE because very little is actually rendered. Even if there was only a "Norrath" server it would need to be broken into "Channels" to be playable.

It doesn't work that way. Its called LOD. You'd be crazy to think the entire world is loaded up at once!

  Laiquendi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/13
Posts: 75

7/17/13 7:42:13 PM#157
Originally posted by Trudge34
Or...seperate servers.

Im going to have to go with this. 

 

 

  loopback1199

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/05
Posts: 204

7/17/13 7:52:03 PM#158
Originally posted by OfficialFlow

if they get rid of the whole leveling system and huge equipment strenght differences that brings all the unequality and focus more on player skill...

Let's turn this around... if YOU had any skill, the equipment strength differences wouldn't matter.

 

I know it's a different train of thought for most of us, but I say we give the carebears their own servers and let them have absolutely nothing to do but sit bored in guild chat picking their asses because they farmed the hell out of the skill-less mobs and are too bored to do anything more than hold another house decorating contest amongst themselves.

  Bidwood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 537

 
OP  7/17/13 8:01:58 PM#159
Originally posted by loopback1199
Originally posted by OfficialFlow

if they get rid of the whole leveling system and huge equipment strenght differences that brings all the unequality and focus more on player skill...

Let's turn this around... if YOU had any skill, the equipment strength differences wouldn't matter.

 

I know it's a different train of thought for most of us, but I say we give the carebears their own servers and let them have absolutely nothing to do but sit bored in guild chat picking their asses because they farmed the hell out of the skill-less mobs and are too bored to do anything more than hold another house decorating contest amongst themselves.

The first sentence doesn't make a lot of sense. loopback1199 was basically saying that the in-game power gap between players can't be big if you expect skill to be the deciding factor.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2390

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

7/17/13 8:03:08 PM#160
Originally posted by Trudge34
Or...seperate servers.

 This

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

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