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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature?

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64 posts found
  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

7/17/13 1:20:16 PM#41
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

To the majority of people who answered this thread.

This thread is not about what a sandbox is or isn't, it is not about the definition of sandbox.

This thread is about what makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature.

What makes something a particular thing is in fact what that definition is. It isn't arbitrary. You don't get to just go outside and point at things and call them dogs. What a dog is is a very specific definition and therefore what makes a dog a dog is exactly what the definition of the word dog is. So what makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature is any feature which fits the definition of sandbox.

 

My above post both answers what a sandbox is and therefore what makes a feature a sandbox feature and it truly is that simple.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

7/17/13 1:23:54 PM#42
Originally posted by lizardbones

 



I think the problem is that "sandbox" doesn't inherently mean anything. It means something different to different groups of people. That's part of what got me thinking about putting the OP up. If there is a "sandbox" ideal, that is inherently a "sandbox", then it should be possible to describe it. To measure it in words. We haven't done that here.

 

 

Sandbox definitely 100% means something. However, there is an amazing amount of people who don't understand the term and use it wrong.

 

It is no different than the 100s of people on the internet that spell ridiculous "rediculous"  or the people that say "in all intensive purposes". The internet is full of people who THINK they understand things (phrases, spelling, terms) that in actuality do not at all.

 

I also simply and directly defined it in my earlier post so I disagree that "we haven't done that here".

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/17/13 2:06:15 PM#43
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
 
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

To the majority of people who answered this thread.

This thread is not about what a sandbox is or isn't, it is not about the definition of sandbox.

This thread is about what makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature.

What makes something a particular thing is in fact what that definition is. It isn't arbitrary. You don't get to just go outside and point at things and call them dogs. What a dog is is a very specific definition and therefore what makes a dog a dog is exactly what the definition of the word dog is. So what makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature is any feature which fits the definition of sandbox.

 

My above post both answers what a sandbox is and therefore what makes a feature a sandbox feature and it truly is that simple.

 I disagree. 

You are right we don't get to make arbitrary definitions but we are not talking about definitions.  We are not talking about what makes a sandbox game.

We are talking about what makes a feature in a game sandbox or not.  There is a significant difference between the two.

People say a sandbox game has housing, open world, no class restrictions and ability to change the world.  Fine.  I say a themepark can do almost all of those things.

Therefore there is a difference in the features themselves, in how the game handles and addresses each feature that determines if they are sandbox or not.  The question is what is it?  Not what is the feature, but what is the difference in how those features are handled.

Very few people in this thread have done that.  They have just listed a bunch of features, or said it's about freedom. 

The question is not about what the feature is, the question is about what is the difference in how that feature is used between the two.

It is not as simple as saying open world pvp is sandbox feature.  WoW has servers with this, it's not sandbox.

It's not as simple saying housing is sandbox.  EQ, EQ2, DCUO have housing.  They aren't considered sandbox.

It's not as simple as saying no classes.  FE doesn't have classes, many feel it is not a sandbox.

It's not as simple as saying freedom.  All games have rules and restrictions.  And some games have more freedom in some areas and less freedom in others. 

So what is the difference in how the features are handled.  What makes that feature sandbox in game A and themepark in Game B.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

7/17/13 2:46:30 PM#44
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
 
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

To the majority of people who answered this thread.

This thread is not about what a sandbox is or isn't, it is not about the definition of sandbox.

This thread is about what makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature.

What makes something a particular thing is in fact what that definition is. It isn't arbitrary. You don't get to just go outside and point at things and call them dogs. What a dog is is a very specific definition and therefore what makes a dog a dog is exactly what the definition of the word dog is. So what makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature is any feature which fits the definition of sandbox.

 

My above post both answers what a sandbox is and therefore what makes a feature a sandbox feature and it truly is that simple.

 I disagree. 

You are right we don't get to make arbitrary definitions but we are not talking about definitions.  We are not talking about what makes a sandbox game.

We are talking about what makes a feature in a game sandbox or not.  There is a significant difference between the two.

People say a sandbox game has housing, open world, no class restrictions and ability to change the world.  Fine.  I say a themepark can do almost all of those things.

Therefore there is a difference in the features themselves, in how the game handles and addresses each feature that determines if they are sandbox or not.  The question is what is it?  Not what is the feature, but what is the difference in how those features are handled.

 

 There are plenty of mistakes in this.

 

Housing by itself is in no way shape or form a sandbox. In fact having pre placed houses that you can buy (or pre defined plots of land that only a specific house can go on that needs to be built) is in fact a theme park setup.

Placing housing anywhere or each player being able to design their house (decorating is not the same) makes it a more sandbox feature.

Open world does not = sandbox at all. If it is a static world with predefined content it is in fact a theme park feature. A world that you can change (physically change the landscape through tools that can raise the land lower it, create caves, etc.) or effect (cut down an entire forest and it never grows back, kill off a type of creature in an area so something else moves in, etc.) it becomes sandbox.

No class restrictions can be sandbox. First let's define no class restrictions. If we are saying there is no classes but instead a long list of skills of which you choose some to fit your character then it is definitely more of a sandbox feature.

 

Your confusion is thinking that for example an open world means sandbox but a theme park can have it. Thinking that no class restrictions can be done in a theme park as a theme park feature. Thinking that static housing can be called sandbox.

 

My point being if your very confusion directly comes from not understanding the actual definition. When the definition is used there are no arguments because something either fits the sandbox definition, and is therefore a sandbox feature, or it does not, and is therefore not a sandbox feature.

 

As I said in my original post, sandbox means having tools to create/change the world. So you have to compare things to that. Simply an open world? Well that contains no tools, so that has nothing to do with the definition of sandbox. Housing? Well if you can only buy pre-existing houses in defined places, or place pre-defined houses in pre-defined locations, then you don't have tools to change/create the world so no by default it is not sandbox.

 

The definition is all that matters because then it is so very simple to compare any given feature to the definitions of sandbox/theme park and see which one it fits.

 

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 10803

7/17/13 2:51:06 PM#45
Originally posted by Quirhid
There are no "sandbox features" or "themepark features" because any feature can be implemented into any game without it becoming one or the other. This sort of pidgeonholing serves no one. There are not "MMORPG features" either. Just features.

i dont agree but i dont know to define it

 

I believe Quest hubs are a theme park feature tho 

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/17/13 2:51:25 PM#46
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
 
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

To the majority of people who answered this thread.

This thread is not about what a sandbox is or isn't, it is not about the definition of sandbox.

This thread is about what makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature.

What makes something a particular thing is in fact what that definition is. It isn't arbitrary. You don't get to just go outside and point at things and call them dogs. What a dog is is a very specific definition and therefore what makes a dog a dog is exactly what the definition of the word dog is. So what makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature is any feature which fits the definition of sandbox.

 

My above post both answers what a sandbox is and therefore what makes a feature a sandbox feature and it truly is that simple.

 I disagree. 

You are right we don't get to make arbitrary definitions but we are not talking about definitions.  We are not talking about what makes a sandbox game.

We are talking about what makes a feature in a game sandbox or not.  There is a significant difference between the two.

People say a sandbox game has housing, open world, no class restrictions and ability to change the world.  Fine.  I say a themepark can do almost all of those things.

Therefore there is a difference in the features themselves, in how the game handles and addresses each feature that determines if they are sandbox or not.  The question is what is it?  Not what is the feature, but what is the difference in how those features are handled.

 

 There are plenty of mistakes in this.

 

Housing by itself is in no way shape or form a sandbox. In fact having pre placed houses that you can buy (or pre defined plots of land that only a specific house can go on that needs to be built) is in fact a theme park setup.

Placing housing anywhere or each player being able to design their house (decorating is not the same) makes it a more sandbox feature.

Open world does not = sandbox at all. If it is a static world with predefined content it is in fact a theme park feature. A world that you can change (physically change the landscape through tools that can raise the land lower it, create caves, etc.) or effect (cut down an entire forest and it never grows back, kill off a type of creature in an area so something else moves in, etc.) it becomes sandbox.

No class restrictions can be sandbox. First let's define no class restrictions. If we are saying there is no classes but instead a long list of skills of which you choose some to fit your character then it is definitely more of a sandbox feature.

 

Your confusion is thinking that for example an open world means sandbox but a theme park can have it. Thinking that no class restrictions can be done in a theme park as a theme park feature. Thinking that static housing can be called sandbox.

 

My point being if your very confusion directly comes from not understanding the actual definition. When the definition is used there are no arguments because something either fits the sandbox definition, and is therefore a sandbox feature, or it does not, and is therefore not a sandbox feature.

 

As I said in my original post, sandbox means having tools to create/change the world. So you have to compare things to that. Simply an open world? Well that contains no tools, so that has nothing to do with the definition of sandbox. Housing? Well if you can only buy pre-existing houses in defined places, or place pre-defined houses in pre-defined locations, then you don't have tools to change/create the world so no by default it is not sandbox.

 

The definition is all that matters because then it is so very simple to compare any given feature to the definitions of sandbox/theme park and see which one it fits.

 

 I think you are mistaking what I think vs what I have stated is commonly thought.

I don't think owpvp, housing or anything in particular is a sandbox feature.  However many many do.  In this very thread people have stated that those are sandbox features.

I also argue that there is an actual definition.  There isn't.  There is just what each individual thinks is the definition.  There is no commonly accepted definition at all. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

7/17/13 2:55:29 PM#47
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

 

 There are plenty of mistakes in this.

 

Housing by itself is in no way shape or form a sandbox. In fact having pre placed houses that you can buy (or pre defined plots of land that only a specific house can go on that needs to be built) is in fact a theme park setup.

Placing housing anywhere or each player being able to design their house (decorating is not the same) makes it a more sandbox feature.

Open world does not = sandbox at all. If it is a static world with predefined content it is in fact a theme park feature. A world that you can change (physically change the landscape through tools that can raise the land lower it, create caves, etc.) or effect (cut down an entire forest and it never grows back, kill off a type of creature in an area so something else moves in, etc.) it becomes sandbox.

No class restrictions can be sandbox. First let's define no class restrictions. If we are saying there is no classes but instead a long list of skills of which you choose some to fit your character then it is definitely more of a sandbox feature.

 

Your confusion is thinking that for example an open world means sandbox but a theme park can have it. Thinking that no class restrictions can be done in a theme park as a theme park feature. Thinking that static housing can be called sandbox.

 

My point being if your very confusion directly comes from not understanding the actual definition. When the definition is used there are no arguments because something either fits the sandbox definition, and is therefore a sandbox feature, or it does not, and is therefore not a sandbox feature.

 

As I said in my original post, sandbox means having tools to create/change the world. So you have to compare things to that. Simply an open world? Well that contains no tools, so that has nothing to do with the definition of sandbox. Housing? Well if you can only buy pre-existing houses in defined places, or place pre-defined houses in pre-defined locations, then you don't have tools to change/create the world so no by default it is not sandbox.

 

The definition is all that matters because then it is so very simple to compare any given feature to the definitions of sandbox/theme park and see which one it fits.

 

 I think you are mistaking what I think vs what I have stated is commonly thought.

I don't think owpvp, housing or anything in particular is a sandbox feature.  However many many do.  In this very thread people have stated that those are sandbox features.

I also argue that there is an actual definition.  There isn't.  There is just what each individual thinks is the definition.  There is no commonly accepted definition at all. 

 There is a definition, it is an easy definition, and it makes it very easy to determine sandbox from themepark. It is so clear that there should never even be any discussion about whether something it or isn't any more than there should be discussions on if an animal is or isn't a dog. They are both equally clear points.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/17/13 3:29:35 PM#48
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

 

 There are plenty of mistakes in this.

 

Housing by itself is in no way shape or form a sandbox. In fact having pre placed houses that you can buy (or pre defined plots of land that only a specific house can go on that needs to be built) is in fact a theme park setup.

Placing housing anywhere or each player being able to design their house (decorating is not the same) makes it a more sandbox feature.

Open world does not = sandbox at all. If it is a static world with predefined content it is in fact a theme park feature. A world that you can change (physically change the landscape through tools that can raise the land lower it, create caves, etc.) or effect (cut down an entire forest and it never grows back, kill off a type of creature in an area so something else moves in, etc.) it becomes sandbox.

No class restrictions can be sandbox. First let's define no class restrictions. If we are saying there is no classes but instead a long list of skills of which you choose some to fit your character then it is definitely more of a sandbox feature.

 

Your confusion is thinking that for example an open world means sandbox but a theme park can have it. Thinking that no class restrictions can be done in a theme park as a theme park feature. Thinking that static housing can be called sandbox.

 

My point being if your very confusion directly comes from not understanding the actual definition. When the definition is used there are no arguments because something either fits the sandbox definition, and is therefore a sandbox feature, or it does not, and is therefore not a sandbox feature.

 

As I said in my original post, sandbox means having tools to create/change the world. So you have to compare things to that. Simply an open world? Well that contains no tools, so that has nothing to do with the definition of sandbox. Housing? Well if you can only buy pre-existing houses in defined places, or place pre-defined houses in pre-defined locations, then you don't have tools to change/create the world so no by default it is not sandbox.

 

The definition is all that matters because then it is so very simple to compare any given feature to the definitions of sandbox/theme park and see which one it fits.

 

 I think you are mistaking what I think vs what I have stated is commonly thought.

I don't think owpvp, housing or anything in particular is a sandbox feature.  However many many do.  In this very thread people have stated that those are sandbox features.

I also argue that there is an actual definition.  There isn't.  There is just what each individual thinks is the definition.  There is no commonly accepted definition at all. 

 There is a definition, it is an easy definition, and it makes it very easy to determine sandbox from themepark. It is so clear that there should never even be any discussion about whether something it or isn't any more than there should be discussions on if an animal is or isn't a dog. They are both equally clear points.

 Well if no one agrees on the definition, and words are defined by the majority... then there is no definition.

We all agree on what is a dog.  We don't all agree on what is a sandbox.

All you are saying is that the definition you use is the right one. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  kjempff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 640

Make worlds not stories

7/17/13 3:45:47 PM#49

First of all, I don't accept the simplistic way of dividing features into either sandbox or themepark. There are other definitions than just two, everything is not black or white. Themepark did not exist till WoW brought us the definition and refined it, generally mmorpgs before that were just roleplaying games, and mostly build on sandbox features.

Sandbox is a world with rules that gives players much freedom to create their own adventure. Only a set of rules apply, but within those rules everyone can do what they want. Free pvp does not mean sandbox, a sandbox can exist perfectly fine without pvp. Sandbox is not rule-less, it is simply a world where the rules are designed in a way that create gameplay, so that players are the biggest content provider.

Themepark is a world with preset adventures, and like the word themepark suggest, You try out the various rides which are highly designed each with a specific purpose. This is typically quests/events, story driven games. The gameplay here is not asmuch rules, but defined content, and the main provider is the developer.

Sandbox Themepark whatever can't really be applied as describing a feature (although we keep trying), but it is rather how content and gameplay is defined, be it by setting up rules and a world and let the gameplay evolve around that, or design adventures, stories etc and let that be the main gameplay.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

7/17/13 3:49:24 PM#50
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

 There is a definition, it is an easy definition, and it makes it very easy to determine sandbox from themepark. It is so clear that there should never even be any discussion about whether something it or isn't any more than there should be discussions on if an animal is or isn't a dog. They are both equally clear points.

 Well if no one agrees on the definition, and words are defined by the majority... then there is no definition.

We all agree on what is a dog.  We don't all agree on what is a sandbox.

All you are saying is that the definition you use is the right one. 

 Nope, I'm saying there is a universally easy to understand definition in the MMO world that the vast majority both understand and agree on. There are simply a few people (mostly on the mmorpg.com forums for some reason, I haven't seen many other places not get what sandbox means) who don't get it and yet insist that everyone who does get it is wrong.

 

  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6384

There's a beast within every man that stirs when you put a sword in his hand

7/17/13 3:52:00 PM#51

I dont think there is such a thing as a sandbox feature. The MMORPG can play like a sandbox or it can play as a ThemePark or it can be a hybrid but I dont think you can poinpoint it to a particular feature.

However I would say that a hallmark of a sandbox MMO is that it is non-linear and player-drivenby nature where as a ThemePark is linear and developer-driven.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/17/13 3:56:29 PM#52

Risk and Reward is not sandbox-specific at all.

Sandboxes are about sand.  Sand is player-controlled or player-created game elements.

That's it.  That's the origin of the term, that sandboxes are sandboxes because they are malleable.

Anything else is just some incidental trait which just happened to be in a sandbox game you enjoyed.  That trait didn't make the game sandbox.  The sand did.  The game's focus on player-controlled elements.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

7/17/13 4:01:04 PM#53
Originally posted by Axehilt

Risk and Reward is not sandbox-specific at all.

Sandboxes are about sand.  Sand is player-controlled or player-created game elements.

That's it.  That's the origin of the term, that sandboxes are sandboxes because they are malleable.

 I've been trying to explain that for pages now. I'm not sure why the term sandbox is so challenging to understand for some people.

 

The name gives the definition and the definition is simple. It's like someone asking why a section of road is called "dead man's curve" and then arguing some convoluted definition of what a dead man is.

  Jaedor

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 731

7/17/13 4:07:00 PM#54

One, I don't see risk vs reward having relevance to sandbox vs themepark. They are separate conversations.


Two, if a player can create an item that persists in the world - whether instanced or not - it is at least "sandboxy". Further discussion would be needed to define and distinguish (for example) crafting from housing.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1468

7/17/13 4:13:31 PM#55
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Axehilt

Risk and Reward is not sandbox-specific at all.

Sandboxes are about sand.  Sand is player-controlled or player-created game elements.

That's it.  That's the origin of the term, that sandboxes are sandboxes because they are malleable.

 I've been trying to explain that for pages now. I'm not sure why the term sandbox is so challenging to understand for some people.

 

The name gives the definition and the definition is simple. It's like someone asking why a section of road is called "dead man's curve" and then arguing some convoluted definition of what a dead man is.

Maybe they need a picture to help them understand the definition. Kids these days . . .

 

As seen below, you are given sand (aka the environment, aka the game world).

And you are given tools with which to manipulate that environment.

Housing is not a sandbox or themepark feature. It can exist in either. However, a sandbox will let you build your own house in whatever manner the tools allow, whereas a themepark housing feature might give you a handful of choices or give you limited methods of creating your house.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/17/13 4:24:51 PM#56
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

 There is a definition, it is an easy definition, and it makes it very easy to determine sandbox from themepark. It is so clear that there should never even be any discussion about whether something it or isn't any more than there should be discussions on if an animal is or isn't a dog. They are both equally clear points.

 Well if no one agrees on the definition, and words are defined by the majority... then there is no definition.

We all agree on what is a dog.  We don't all agree on what is a sandbox.

All you are saying is that the definition you use is the right one. 

 Nope, I'm saying there is a universally easy to understand definition in the MMO world that the vast majority both understand and agree on. There are simply a few people (mostly on the mmorpg.com forums for some reason, I haven't seen many other places not get what sandbox means) who don't get it and yet insist that everyone who does get it is wrong.

 

 Different experiences then.  I say the exact opposite.  There is no universal defintion in the mmo or any game world that any majority understand and agree.  I say the majority on mmo and other forums, games, and in RL I've seen do not get what sandbox is as it relates to a video game and only offer ther different, sometimes very different definition which invariably disagrees with other definitions.

LIkely why Smedly has just stated Sandbox style, rather than outright sandbox because even he gets that no one agrees on exactly what is a sandbox video game.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

7/17/13 4:26:43 PM#57
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

 There is a definition, it is an easy definition, and it makes it very easy to determine sandbox from themepark. It is so clear that there should never even be any discussion about whether something it or isn't any more than there should be discussions on if an animal is or isn't a dog. They are both equally clear points.

 Well if no one agrees on the definition, and words are defined by the majority... then there is no definition.

We all agree on what is a dog.  We don't all agree on what is a sandbox.

All you are saying is that the definition you use is the right one. 

 Nope, I'm saying there is a universally easy to understand definition in the MMO world that the vast majority both understand and agree on. There are simply a few people (mostly on the mmorpg.com forums for some reason, I haven't seen many other places not get what sandbox means) who don't get it and yet insist that everyone who does get it is wrong.

 

 Different experiences then.  I say the exact opposite.  There is no universal defintion in the mmo or any game world that any majority understand and agree.  I say the majority on mmo and other forums, games, and in RL I've seen do not get what sandbox is and are only offerent their definition which invariably disagrees with other definitions.

 Several posts above this one all get it. So.... yeah.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/17/13 4:30:58 PM#58
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

 There is a definition, it is an easy definition, and it makes it very easy to determine sandbox from themepark. It is so clear that there should never even be any discussion about whether something it or isn't any more than there should be discussions on if an animal is or isn't a dog. They are both equally clear points.

 Well if no one agrees on the definition, and words are defined by the majority... then there is no definition.

We all agree on what is a dog.  We don't all agree on what is a sandbox.

All you are saying is that the definition you use is the right one. 

 Nope, I'm saying there is a universally easy to understand definition in the MMO world that the vast majority both understand and agree on. There are simply a few people (mostly on the mmorpg.com forums for some reason, I haven't seen many other places not get what sandbox means) who don't get it and yet insist that everyone who does get it is wrong.

 

 Different experiences then.  I say the exact opposite.  There is no universal defintion in the mmo or any game world that any majority understand and agree.  I say the majority on mmo and other forums, games, and in RL I've seen do not get what sandbox is and are only offerent their definition which invariably disagrees with other definitions.

 Several posts above this one all get it. So.... yeah.

 And yet all throughout this thread are different definitions.  So... yeah.

All your saying is that the posts you are referencing agree with you. 

All I'm saying is the other posts do not.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

7/17/13 4:40:04 PM#59
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

 There is a definition, it is an easy definition, and it makes it very easy to determine sandbox from themepark. It is so clear that there should never even be any discussion about whether something it or isn't any more than there should be discussions on if an animal is or isn't a dog. They are both equally clear points.

 Well if no one agrees on the definition, and words are defined by the majority... then there is no definition.

We all agree on what is a dog.  We don't all agree on what is a sandbox.

All you are saying is that the definition you use is the right one. 

 Nope, I'm saying there is a universally easy to understand definition in the MMO world that the vast majority both understand and agree on. There are simply a few people (mostly on the mmorpg.com forums for some reason, I haven't seen many other places not get what sandbox means) who don't get it and yet insist that everyone who does get it is wrong.

 

 Different experiences then.  I say the exact opposite.  There is no universal defintion in the mmo or any game world that any majority understand and agree.  I say the majority on mmo and other forums, games, and in RL I've seen do not get what sandbox is and are only offerent their definition which invariably disagrees with other definitions.

 Several posts above this one all get it. So.... yeah.

 And yet all throughout this thread are different definitions.  So... yeah.

All your saying is that the posts you are referencing agree with you. 

All I'm saying is the other posts do not.

Clearly you don't get what a sandbox is or have a downright silly thought of what one is (saying you do and are just for arguing for the sake of others wouldn't be true).

Despite many people explaining to you on what the majority of gamers know to be the correct definition, the definition that was used when sandbox was first applied as a term, the definition that makes the most logical sense with the name, and the definition that the majority accept as correct.

So I guess this is where we part ways with me still fully understanding the term and therefore understanding exactly what makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature and you forever confused on what a sandbox feature is. So be it. I just feel like the guy sitting next to the donkey.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg

 

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/17/13 4:45:11 PM#60
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

 There is a definition, it is an easy definition, and it makes it very easy to determine sandbox from themepark. It is so clear that there should never even be any discussion about whether something it or isn't any more than there should be discussions on if an animal is or isn't a dog. They are both equally clear points.

 Well if no one agrees on the definition, and words are defined by the majority... then there is no definition.

We all agree on what is a dog.  We don't all agree on what is a sandbox.

All you are saying is that the definition you use is the right one. 

 Nope, I'm saying there is a universally easy to understand definition in the MMO world that the vast majority both understand and agree on. There are simply a few people (mostly on the mmorpg.com forums for some reason, I haven't seen many other places not get what sandbox means) who don't get it and yet insist that everyone who does get it is wrong.

 

 Different experiences then.  I say the exact opposite.  There is no universal defintion in the mmo or any game world that any majority understand and agree.  I say the majority on mmo and other forums, games, and in RL I've seen do not get what sandbox is and are only offerent their definition which invariably disagrees with other definitions.

 Several posts above this one all get it. So.... yeah.

 And yet all throughout this thread are different definitions.  So... yeah.

All your saying is that the posts you are referencing agree with you. 

All I'm saying is the other posts do not.

Clearly you don't get what a sandbox is or have a downright silly thought of what one is (saying you do and are just for arguing for the sake of others wouldn't be true).

Despite many people explaining to you on what the majority of gamers know to be the correct definition, the definition that was used when sandbox was first applied as a term, the definition that makes the most logical sense with the name, and the definition that the majority accept as correct.

So I guess this is where we part ways with me still fully understanding the term and therefore understanding exactly what makes a sandbox feature a sandbox feature and you forever confused on what a sandbox feature is. So be it. I just feel like the guy sitting next to the donkey who is insisting that Kevin Bacon wasn't in (the original) footloose in the family guy cut-scene so there is no point in trying to explain this to you.

 Once again.  The majority of gamers don't know the correct defintion, only their definition which is, more often than not, contradicatory to other gamers definitions.

Also I didn't state nor imply I don't understand what people mean.  I have my definition, I have never stated it in this thread, as the thread was about how features are implemented.

There is no commonly accepted or majority defintion that was ever in use, that the majority have ever accepted, despite what you think you know. 

All you are saying is you fully understand what you believe to the definition, and you gather support from other people that agree with you, ignoring others that don't.  Thats it.

What you believe may not be right. 

Feels like a religious argument.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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