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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » POLL: Do you want an aggro managment in EQN?

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154 posts found
  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/17/13 1:48:01 PM#61
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
Gholos i've seen a lot of your posts and I think we are on the same page man. I hated GW2 group combat.

I couldn't agree with the both you more. I really dislike group play in Guild Wars 2 as it ALWAYS feels disorganized with people running around dodging and dps'ing. It looks and feels ridiculous to me. To the point that I can't even play the game. I've always been a big fan of the trinity as I love to have a purpose. I really hope they don't go the gw2 route. 

Only the bads ran around ridiculously in GW2 because none of them were specced right or complemented each other, so they just run around and kite mobs in dungeons.

If you understand how to build teams and use combo fields, you could stand still in every single fight, except for using dodge to get out of the way of big attacks.

The difference is that some games hold your hands to achieve this (You must have 1 of each arch-type *Tank, Healer, DPS, Support*) and they make this extremely clear in the game by making each class specific to a role.

In GW2, there's no hand holding and any class can be any range of roles.  So if you just randomly PUG an exploration mode dungeon, you're rolling the RNG dice on group make up.  This is the same as going into an EQ dungeon with all wizards or all warriors.

In GW2, you either took the time to understand the mechanics and bring a complementary group, or you run around, kiting, downing and zerg rushing the bosses.

 

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Torcip

Elite Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 641

7/17/13 1:51:17 PM#62

If you ugys want to see how a game works without aggro management look at Guild Wars 1.  There was no predictable aggro in that game and no way of managing it.  Yet every player had a role to fulfill and team play was strategic and satisfying.  GW1 had some of the most challenging fights of any MMO i have ever played and it was mainly because of the atypical aggro on mobs.

I've always hated the tank and spank of traditional trinity combat.  Personally tanking should be done with active skills like how it is done in MOBAs. Slow fields, short duration taunts, pushes/pulls, stuns, blinds, impassable barriers; things that allow active tanking and not just spamming the taunt button.

  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

7/17/13 1:51:20 PM#63
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Gallus85
 

I don't see your point.  You guys created a system that was group friendly with heals and buffs and such (That's not "ignoring" the whole group play")  You were thinking about the group when you made your character builds.  That's good.  I don't see how that's bad.

That's the same as saying "We shouldn't go into this dungeon unless we have a healer".  You're thinking about the group, it's just done in a different way, to achieve the same effect, in GW2.

We didn't think at all about the classes we chose, we only had the presence of mind to choose aoe heal/buff abilites... other than that group play consisted of run and shoot. We ignored combos and even each other for the most part, other than hitting our aoe abilities at nearly random intervals. Sure it is group play, but it's pretty simplistic for my taste. I won't judge you if you found something deeper within the system than I did, but for us, it felt shallow and we just decided to move on.

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/17/13 1:54:23 PM#64
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Gallus85
 

I don't see your point.  You guys created a system that was group friendly with heals and buffs and such (That's not "ignoring" the whole group play")  You were thinking about the group when you made your character builds.  That's good.  I don't see how that's bad.

That's the same as saying "We shouldn't go into this dungeon unless we have a healer".  You're thinking about the group, it's just done in a different way, to achieve the same effect, in GW2.

We didn't think at all about the classes we chose, we only had the presence of mind to choose aoe heal/buff abilites... other than that group play consisted of run and shoot. We ignored combos and even each other for the most part, other than hitting our aoe abilities at nearly random intervals. Sure it is group play, but it's pretty simplistic for my taste. I won't judge you if you found something deeper within the system than I did, but for us, it felt shallow and we just decided to move on.

Ya it seems like you were halfway there.  GW2 lets each class form to different roles.  Like a necro could high dps, or it could really high support.  This was done intentionally so players could pick the class that they wanted to roleplay and thought was the coolest, but still be able to fit in with any of your friends in a group.

But ya, you were half way there, you considered group play when picking your skills, but didn't really work on fields and complementing spec loadouts, so you had to kite and run around.  If you had dug a little deeper you would have seen that GW2 system was not so different from what you prefer.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

7/17/13 1:56:34 PM#65
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Gallus85
 

I don't see your point.  You guys created a system that was group friendly with heals and buffs and such (That's not "ignoring" the whole group play")  You were thinking about the group when you made your character builds.  That's good.  I don't see how that's bad.

That's the same as saying "We shouldn't go into this dungeon unless we have a healer".  You're thinking about the group, it's just done in a different way, to achieve the same effect, in GW2.

We didn't think at all about the classes we chose, we only had the presence of mind to choose aoe heal/buff abilites... other than that group play consisted of run and shoot. We ignored combos and even each other for the most part, other than hitting our aoe abilities at nearly random intervals. Sure it is group play, but it's pretty simplistic for my taste. I won't judge you if you found something deeper within the system than I did, but for us, it felt shallow and we just decided to move on.

Ya it seems like you were halfway there.  GW2 lets each class form to different roles.  Like a necro could high dps, or it could really high support.  This was done intentionally so players could pick the class that they wanted to roleplay and thought was the coolest, but still be able to fit in with any of your friends in a group.

But ya, you were half way there, you considered group play when picking your skills, but didn't really work on fields and complementing spec loadouts, so you had to kite and run around.  If you had dug a little deeper you would have seen that GW2 system was not so different from what you prefer.

It may have been deeper, but since it was so easy for us to clear content, we didn't want to dig deeper. 

  Gholos

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/13
Posts: 209

 
OP  7/17/13 2:07:30 PM#66
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
Gholos i've seen a lot of your posts and I think we are on the same page man. I hated GW2 group combat.

I couldn't agree with the both you more. I really dislike group play in Guild Wars 2 as it ALWAYS feels disorganized with people running around dodging and dps'ing. It looks and feels ridiculous to me. To the point that I can't even play the game. I've always been a big fan of the trinity as I love to have a purpose. I really hope they don't go the gw2 route. 

Only the bads ran around ridiculously in GW2 because none of them were specced right or complemented each other, so they just run around and kite mobs in dungeons.

If you understand how to build teams and use combo fields, you could stand still in every single fight, except for using dodge to get out of the way of big attacks.

Well, i m Dungeon Master in GW2 and i have played 400 fractals, for my experience you dont need a class coordination in order to end an istance in GW2, you only need to have players that have a good spec for their classes (no glass cannons), that dodge at the right time, that do decent dps and that dont do stupid things (like throwing themself in a group of mobs pretenting to be a tank for example).

The fact that you dont need a class cordination is proven by the fact that you can do praticaly all the istances of the game with a group of random classes.


"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1877

7/17/13 2:19:10 PM#67
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Gallus85
 

I don't see your point.  You guys created a system that was group friendly with heals and buffs and such (That's not "ignoring" the whole group play")  You were thinking about the group when you made your character builds.  That's good.  I don't see how that's bad.

That's the same as saying "We shouldn't go into this dungeon unless we have a healer".  You're thinking about the group, it's just done in a different way, to achieve the same effect, in GW2.

We didn't think at all about the classes we chose, we only had the presence of mind to choose aoe heal/buff abilites... other than that group play consisted of run and shoot. We ignored combos and even each other for the most part, other than hitting our aoe abilities at nearly random intervals. Sure it is group play, but it's pretty simplistic for my taste. I won't judge you if you found something deeper within the system than I did, but for us, it felt shallow and we just decided to move on.

Ya it seems like you were halfway there.  GW2 lets each class form to different roles.  Like a necro could high dps, or it could really high support.  This was done intentionally so players could pick the class that they wanted to roleplay and thought was the coolest, but still be able to fit in with any of your friends in a group.

But ya, you were half way there, you considered group play when picking your skills, but didn't really work on fields and complementing spec loadouts, so you had to kite and run around.  If you had dug a little deeper you would have seen that GW2 system was not so different from what you prefer.

It may have been deeper, but since it was so easy for us to clear content, we didn't want to dig deeper. 

Been following this discussion and it's a very odd argument on the pro-GW2 side. So GW2 is easy enough to do the content without going in depth with combat, and if you do go deeper into combat you get something akin to the trinity.
 

How does this make GW2 better? It's easy enough that you don't need a trinity, but if you put more effort into it, you get to play it with a pseudo-trinity which is apparently . . . more fun? So why not just go with a trinity?

I've played my fair share of GW2 too, and it seems that cross class combos aren't really that impressive, or at least, not useful enough to warrant a set up considering most skills happen so quickly. Gallus, do you have a video of a group doing a dungeon using the methods you describe in this and other posts in this thread? I'd be very curious to try it out.

  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

7/17/13 2:26:21 PM#68
Originally posted by Rusque
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Gallus85
 

I don't see your point.  You guys created a system that was group friendly with heals and buffs and such (That's not "ignoring" the whole group play")  You were thinking about the group when you made your character builds.  That's good.  I don't see how that's bad.

That's the same as saying "We shouldn't go into this dungeon unless we have a healer".  You're thinking about the group, it's just done in a different way, to achieve the same effect, in GW2.

We didn't think at all about the classes we chose, we only had the presence of mind to choose aoe heal/buff abilites... other than that group play consisted of run and shoot. We ignored combos and even each other for the most part, other than hitting our aoe abilities at nearly random intervals. Sure it is group play, but it's pretty simplistic for my taste. I won't judge you if you found something deeper within the system than I did, but for us, it felt shallow and we just decided to move on.

Ya it seems like you were halfway there.  GW2 lets each class form to different roles.  Like a necro could high dps, or it could really high support.  This was done intentionally so players could pick the class that they wanted to roleplay and thought was the coolest, but still be able to fit in with any of your friends in a group.

But ya, you were half way there, you considered group play when picking your skills, but didn't really work on fields and complementing spec loadouts, so you had to kite and run around.  If you had dug a little deeper you would have seen that GW2 system was not so different from what you prefer.

It may have been deeper, but since it was so easy for us to clear content, we didn't want to dig deeper. 

Been following this discussion and it's a very odd argument on the pro-GW2 side. So GW2 is easy enough to do the content without going in depth with combat, and if you do go deeper into combat you get something akin to the trinity.
 

How does this make GW2 better? It's easy enough that you don't need a trinity, but if you put more effort into it, you get to play it with a pseudo-trinity which is apparently . . . more fun? So why not just go with a trinity?

I've played my fair share of GW2 too, and it seems that cross class combos aren't really that impressive, or at least, not useful enough to warrant a set up considering most skills happen so quickly. Gallus, do you have a video of a group doing a dungeon using the methods you describe in this and other posts in this thread? I'd be very curious to try it out.

I have nothing against GW2. It's easy enough to clear content without really thinking, and some people say it's deeper, but I couldn't find it. 

They say combos are great... in reality they feel weak and their downfall is they are not needed to clear anything.

They say there is important ways to play your group that will make groups so much better... but they are not needed to clear anything.

Maybe those things do exist, but GW2's group play is such a weak tack on that only the worst players are actually having trouble and need to even consider thinking about combos... which is very counter-intuitive, since those players are the least likely to actually learn an advanced technique.

It's really a poor design for PvE. I'm not saying a system without role's couldn't work, but it just ends up being a bunch of guys running around dodging and shooting at stuff in GW2... and that simplistic style works just fine to clear everything.

Edit: I should mention that I agree with your point lol.

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/17/13 2:50:13 PM#69
Originally posted by Rusque

Been following this discussion and it's a very odd argument on the pro-GW2 side. So GW2 is easy enough to do the content without going in depth with combat, and if you do go deeper into combat you get something akin to the trinity.
 

How does this make GW2 better? It's easy enough that you don't need a trinity, but if you put more effort into it, you get to play it with a pseudo-trinity which is apparently . . . more fun? So why not just go with a trinity?

I've played my fair share of GW2 too, and it seems that cross class combos aren't really that impressive, or at least, not useful enough to warrant a set up considering most skills happen so quickly. Gallus, do you have a video of a group doing a dungeon using the methods you describe in this and other posts in this thread? I'd be very curious to try it out.

I wouldn't say "Better".  I'd say it was different.  It's nice to get something different instead of the same old same old, imho.

Well you can say that cross class combos aren't impressive, but the difference in damage when your whole group stays in range, drops a fire field, and 1 or 2 people put blast finishers in those fire fields, you end up with +25x Might x 5 players = +125 might worth of extra dps on the mob.... that's pretty massive difference in the damage output of the group.

Being able to drop water fields and keep players alive is also a really big difference imo.

Drop a poison field from a thief or a necro then do blast finishers and leaps through them to cause Weakness, and you just reduced the mob's damage by 50%. 50% damage reduction for utilizing fields right in this situation.  Frankly I don't know how much more powerful you want this system to be before it becomes meaningful to you.

Sethius says that he could clear the content without thinking about it, but I feel that he just got lucky/exaggerating the easy of his game experience on top of playing with a static group.  His team was already thinking about group oriented skills, and on top of this, they were probably taking advantage of fields unknowingly, and even admits to still running around during fights.

 It's possible that it can happen, but clearly this was not the case with a large portion of the population.  There are tons of videos on youtube and tons of complaints on the GW2 forums about people are getting wiped on exploration mode AC dungeon, and it's only a lvl 30 instance lol.  Clearly the game is doing something right in terms of difficulty.

As for a video, I didn't record any PVE dungeons.  I could try to find a good one for you, or make my own.  I'll post back if I find something.

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  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

7/17/13 2:59:32 PM#70
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Rusque

I wouldn't say "Better".  I'd say it was different.  It's nice to get something different instead of the same old same old, imho.

...

Sethius says that he could clear the content without thinking about it, but I feel that he just got lucky/exaggerating the easy of his game experience on top of playing with a static group.  His team was already thinking about group oriented skills, and on top of this, they were probably taking advantage of fields unknowingly, and even admits to still running around during fights.

 It's possible that it can happen, but clearly this was not the case with a large portion of the population.  There are tons of videos on youtube and tons of complaints on the GW2 forums about people are getting wiped on exploration mode AC dungeon, and it's only a lvl 30 instance lol.  Clearly the game is doing something right in terms of difficulty.

...

You seem pretty thoughtful about the game, which I can appreciate. I will say that I do admit to running around during fights, and frankly it was a strategy that worked great. I'd call that a weakness of the system that simply running around enables you to win much of the time, but that's just me.

As for the AC dungeon supposed to be easier because it's lvl 30... I thought the scaling pretty much did a good job of negating that (not entirely of course, once you got all exotics it was easier), and that was a strength of GW2 imo.

Anyway, it's neither here nor there. The game system is fine for what it is, but it feels to me to be lackluster compared to a trinity based system. I rooted for it at first, I too wanted to break the mold, but after awhile I found myself longing for the complexity of my old job as a tank. 

Now, I will say, the jump puzzles... those were amazing! =D

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/17/13 3:05:32 PM#71
Originally posted by Gholos
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
Gholos i've seen a lot of your posts and I think we are on the same page man. I hated GW2 group combat.

I couldn't agree with the both you more. I really dislike group play in Guild Wars 2 as it ALWAYS feels disorganized with people running around dodging and dps'ing. It looks and feels ridiculous to me. To the point that I can't even play the game. I've always been a big fan of the trinity as I love to have a purpose. I really hope they don't go the gw2 route. 

Only the bads ran around ridiculously in GW2 because none of them were specced right or complemented each other, so they just run around and kite mobs in dungeons.

If you understand how to build teams and use combo fields, you could stand still in every single fight, except for using dodge to get out of the way of big attacks.

Well, i m Dungeon Master in GW2 and i have played 400 fractals, for my experience you dont need a class coordination in order to end an istance in GW2, you only need to have players that have a good spec for their classes (no glass cannons), that dodge at the right time, that do decent dps and that dont do stupid things (like throwing themself in a group of mobs pretenting to be a tank for example).

The fact that you dont need a class cordination is proven by the fact that you can do praticaly all the istances of the game with a group of random classes.

I'm curious to what combat system you would say is superior.

In games that have the trinity, you're typically pressing a pre-arranged set of skill buttons to either taunt/do damage or do damage.

If you're a healer, you wait till HP bars go down, then press a few buttons to make them go up.

Every class is predefined a role and role is extremely simple and easy to perform.

What game would you say shines over GW2's combat system?

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  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/17/13 3:16:06 PM#72
Originally posted by SethiusX

Anyway, it's neither here nor there. The game system is fine for what it is, but it feels to me to be lackluster compared to a trinity based system. I rooted for it at first, I too wanted to break the mold, but after awhile I found myself longing for the complexity of my old job as a tank. 

Now, I will say, the jump puzzles... those were amazing! =D

Ya, I guess because I've played so many trinity MMOs and none of them came close to the complexity of character development and combat that GW2 did.

I've played tanks, healers, support and DPS in a wide range of trinity games, from EQ, Lineage 2, EQ2, Vanguard, Aion, Warhammer, SWTOR, just to name a few, and none of them really stood out as "complex" when it came to combat.

Tank taunts, healer watches those HP bars and DPS stand somewhere (generally behind the mob) and push buttons.

Didn't ever feel as fun or interactive as GW2's combat.

But most games?  Zzzzz.  Not complex at all.

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  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15999

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

7/17/13 3:19:15 PM#73

Originally posted by Gallus85
 

I don't know if you want to be my dancing queen.  There are few that could handle this.

 

 

Holy hells, ROFL...

As for the OP, I'd like to see something different done with such mechanics.

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  Gholos

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/13
Posts: 209

 
OP  7/17/13 3:19:30 PM#74
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Gholos
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
Gholos i've seen a lot of your posts and I think we are on the same page man. I hated GW2 group combat.

I couldn't agree with the both you more. I really dislike group play in Guild Wars 2 as it ALWAYS feels disorganized with people running around dodging and dps'ing. It looks and feels ridiculous to me. To the point that I can't even play the game. I've always been a big fan of the trinity as I love to have a purpose. I really hope they don't go the gw2 route. 

Only the bads ran around ridiculously in GW2 because none of them were specced right or complemented each other, so they just run around and kite mobs in dungeons.

If you understand how to build teams and use combo fields, you could stand still in every single fight, except for using dodge to get out of the way of big attacks.

Well, i m Dungeon Master in GW2 and i have played 400 fractals, for my experience you dont need a class coordination in order to end an istance in GW2, you only need to have players that have a good spec for their classes (no glass cannons), that dodge at the right time, that do decent dps and that dont do stupid things (like throwing themself in a group of mobs pretenting to be a tank for example).

The fact that you dont need a class cordination is proven by the fact that you can do praticaly all the istances of the game with a group of random classes.

I'm curious to what combat system you would say is superior.

In games that have the trinity, you're typically pressing a pre-arranged set of skill buttons to either taunt/do damage or do damage.

If you're a healer, you wait till HP bars go down, then press a few buttons to make them go up.

Every class is predefined a role and role is extremely simple and easy to perform.

What game would you say shines over GW2's combat system?

I m not talking about combat system, i m talking about strategies in PvE and need of coordinations between classes with unique skills . I think that EQ and WOW (first WoW with 40 peeps raid) was far better than GW2 PvE.


"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/17/13 3:23:27 PM#75
Originally posted by Gholos

I'm curious to what combat system you would say is superior.

In games that have the trinity, you're typically pressing a pre-arranged set of skill buttons to either taunt/do damage or do damage.

If you're a healer, you wait till HP bars go down, then press a few buttons to make them go up.

Every class is predefined a role and role is extremely simple and easy to perform.

What game would you say shines over GW2's combat system?

I m not talking about combat system, i m talking about strategies in PvE and need of coordinations between classes with unique skills . I think that EQ and WOW (first WoW with 40 peeps raid) was far better than GW2 PvE.

And what's the difference between Playing a cleric in EQ, and being told that you heal people when their HPs get low, or speccing a character in GW2 to throw out regens, utilize water-field blast finishers and using skills to heal your allies?

The only difference I see is that one system the class tells you what you will do, and the other lets classes change to fit different roles as they see fit.  Both systems require team work and looking out for each other, but one allows for more class diversity.

If we're just speaking on those terms, I don't personally mind either and I'll be happy if EQN has either (or something else).

But I feel that GW2 was an evolution to a more realistic, fun and dynamic fighting experience (while still benefiting from different play styles)

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  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/17/13 3:29:42 PM#76
Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Gallus85
 

I don't know if you want to be my dancing queen.  There are few that could handle this.

 

 

Holy hells, ROFL...

As for the OP, I'd like to see something different done with such mechanics.

:)

I agree though.  I'm a sucker for new.  Personally, I can find the good in just about any game.  So I don't care if EQN has a trinity, or something else... but I love seeing new innovations and seeing old systems modernized.

And I've always felt that the trinity style game play made combat not feel like... combat.  It's always felt kinda 1 dimensional, cheesy and unrealistic.  But that's ok.  I like a little cheese too sometimes.

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  User Deleted
7/17/13 3:30:59 PM#77
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Gholos
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
Gholos i've seen a lot of your posts and I think we are on the same page man. I hated GW2 group combat.

I couldn't agree with the both you more. I really dislike group play in Guild Wars 2 as it ALWAYS feels disorganized with people running around dodging and dps'ing. It looks and feels ridiculous to me. To the point that I can't even play the game. I've always been a big fan of the trinity as I love to have a purpose. I really hope they don't go the gw2 route. 

Only the bads ran around ridiculously in GW2 because none of them were specced right or complemented each other, so they just run around and kite mobs in dungeons.

If you understand how to build teams and use combo fields, you could stand still in every single fight, except for using dodge to get out of the way of big attacks.

Well, i m Dungeon Master in GW2 and i have played 400 fractals, for my experience you dont need a class coordination in order to end an istance in GW2, you only need to have players that have a good spec for their classes (no glass cannons), that dodge at the right time, that do decent dps and that dont do stupid things (like throwing themself in a group of mobs pretenting to be a tank for example).

The fact that you dont need a class cordination is proven by the fact that you can do praticaly all the istances of the game with a group of random classes.

I'm curious to what combat system you would say is superior.

In games that have the trinity, you're typically pressing a pre-arranged set of skill buttons to either taunt/do damage or do damage.

If you're a healer, you wait till HP bars go down, then press a few buttons to make them go up.

Every class is predefined a role and role is extremely simple and easy to perform.

What game would you say shines over GW2's combat system?

Guild Wars 1. Slight alterations to the usual aggro system, but everyone still had fulfilling and necessary role in a team.

I think combo fields had the potential to be neat, but from what I experienced almost no one ever made any coordinated effort in their use beyond dropping them in the middle of a zerg/on top of a mob where they will obviously proc something through the usual skill spam.

But i'm not really seeing the major innovation in it personally over other games. Dropping an AE on the ground and proccing with something that will make it spit out a short might/retal or heal is more or less the same effect as having a shaman in EQ2 buffing team mates with bolster or shielding them with wards. Or exploiting weaknesses/chainning group buffs in Vanguard.

I suppose you could say you don't have to actually switch targets over to a group member with combo fields since they are ground targeted, but i'm not sure if that was ever the kind of thing anyone ever taken issue with in the usual trinity.

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1115

7/17/13 3:35:41 PM#78
Originally posted by Wolfenpride
Originally posted by Gallus85

I'm curious to what combat system you would say is superior.

In games that have the trinity, you're typically pressing a pre-arranged set of skill buttons to either taunt/do damage or do damage.

If you're a healer, you wait till HP bars go down, then press a few buttons to make them go up.

Every class is predefined a role and role is extremely simple and easy to perform.

What game would you say shines over GW2's combat system?

Guild Wars 1. Slight alterations to the usual aggro system, but everyone still had fulfilling and necessary role in a team.

I think combo fields had the potential to be neat, but from what I experienced almost no one ever made any coordinated effort in their use beyond dropping them in the middle of a zerg/on top of a mob where they will obviously proc something through the usual skill spam.

But i'm not really seeing the major innovation in it personally over other games. Dropping an AE on the ground and proccing with something that will make it spit out a short might/retal or heal is more or less the same effect as having a shaman in EQ2 buffing team mates with bolster or shielding them with wards. Or exploiting weaknesses/chainning group buffs in Vanguard.

I suppose you could say you don't have to actually switch targets over to a group member with combo fields since they are ground targeted, but i'm not sure if that was ever the kind of thing anyone ever taken issue with in the usual trinity.

I agree that a lot of people generally didn't utilize the combo field or class specs to any real benefit.  I had PUGs some time where the group would get knocked down to 20% health, my wife would drop a water field, then everyone else in the group would be dropping all sorts of other fields on top of it, and you'd end up giving everyone might instead of healing them....

When you play with a static group, voice chatting and really coordinate the team, it's one of the most rewarding systems.

But when you're grouped with some uncoordinated PUG, no voice chat, no coordination, it's just a bunch of RNG and pray that one of them accidently places the right field at the right time, or doesn't over-write a good field with one that's not needed at that time.

Very non-PUG friendly system, for sure.

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  mos0811

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 173

7/17/13 3:45:18 PM#79
Originally posted by Gholos
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by Gholos

I have see some people here that dont want an aggro managment, trinity or a taunt skill in EQN, but no one of them have explain how an alternative system should works and allow a challenging PvE.

In my game expirience i have seen only 2 possible system:

1) CLASSIC SYSTEM (trinity with aggro managment) = that allow you to build up parties with classes that have a specific role and are all important for the group due their peculiar skills. A system that promote the collaboration and the coordination between players and need tatics in order to end a PvE  event.

2) GW2 SYSTEM = that dont need specific roles, where all the classes are supposed to do pratically the same things (healing self and do dps) and where every class can be replaced by another. You have only to think about your char. and to not being killed.

In my opinion with the GW2 system is nearly imposible to create PvE contet for more than 5 players party because there are no classes's roles...for more than 5 people party i intend real raids not the ridicolous world events of GW2 that are so simple that you can do it semi afk and in auto attack mode (you could do afk if the game have a decent targeting system).

So, if anyone know an alternative system for PvE, could explain how it can work?

 

I am one who did not offer an alternative with notes on how to create challenging PVE.

There are several reasons I did not and will not.  

For one though, I do not feel the root of why PVE is not challening in most games lies in the aggro mechanic.  I found GW2's PVE extremely easy as I found it in SWTOR, Rift, and WOW.  I could argue PVE is more challenging without the aggro mechanics you enjoy but I will not make the claim as I would imagine the argument will go circular fast.  I feel the root cause of why it is often so easy is predictable, patterned, non-varianced artificial intelligence.

To elaborate on why I cannot offer an alternative, Artificial Intelligence is a very complex topic which spans horizons far beyond my education and more importantly, the education of many game designers and developers.  The task of creating an artificially intelligent opponent that is at an appropriate challenge level across a spectrum of varied human skill levels, that can stay challenging -- is an old challenge and it is a monumental one.  It is for that reason we don't see it done often, if ever.

 

About aggro mechanic, i think that is the only one atm that allow challenging pvp cause if you have a tank with aggro control you can allow the other classes to do their jobs ad use their abilities,without a tank, a pure healer couldnt heal efficently cause he could be attacked by many mobs and being killed (the same for a pure dps that will not be ale to do dps on the boss) and if you introduce healers and dps that can survive alone you will have a GW2 system where collaboration between players is not very important. Obviously this is valid for tha tank too that have to rely on the healer to stay alive.

Furthermore if you dont have specific roles for the classes, boss fights cannot be very complex because you will not have classes suitable to their role, the tank will not enough resilent to resist to boss attacks and take aggro on him, the healer will not able to heals the tank efficently etc. so all will need to become simpler.

About the second part of your post, i think that it is  interesting, but we are talking about a game that will be released soon so we cannot pretend that it will introduce mobs with artificial intelligence so sofisticated to be similar to a human players, so for a challenging PvE we have to look at a system that works and that is tested in many MMORPG.

If you have a group of 10 people grouping up to hunt a bear, and all the people have the identical weapons the fight could still be very interesting.  The bear could lead the hunters through terrain where only half of the hunters are able to follow (due to fitness) or maybe across streams (where a few hunters drown).  What I'm getting at is that complexity of fights is not limited because of having or not having roles.

Why do we need a tank?  Really think about your answer.  Here's what I come up with; it was a way for plated players to protect more squishy players.  What if "tanking" was changed so you didn't need Plate armor to survive?  EvE uses 3 forms of tanking; shield, armor and speed tanking.  In fantasy MMO terms that would be a high HP regen but low starting HP (shield), high amount of HP to begin with little to no regen (armor) and speed.

Back to my bear story; how did hunters with spears contain a bear?  Lots of people around it stabbing at it with long sticks (at least in the movies that's how it is shown), or perhaps one person as bait, and x number of other people with guns to shoot the bear before he mauls the bait.  Why does tanking have to be about 1 person taking damage, while the rest of the group dishes damage back to the mob?

I would personally love to see smart AI that thinks in terms of survivability; which Player target will kill me first, and how do I neutralize that threat.  I don't want to do away with archetypes that I've seen in games like Shadowbane; you had the fighters, who were your big bruiser DPSers; healers; rogues, who avoided damage by having high defense; mages who were your traditional casters.  Each of those 4 archetypes had roles in a group, but you didn't need each type in a group, with the exception of a healer.  I love games where Race and Class matter to playstyle and that not every class can do the job of another; it's one of the reasons I never even tried GW2.  I want to have fighters, healers, rogues & mages, but I feel that Fighters shouldn't have to be pigeoned holed into the role of tank.

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3518

7/17/13 3:48:18 PM#80
Well the poll shows it. Holy trinity class system with tank-spank aggro management, Yeah, that will be a sandbox alright :/
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