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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » POLL: Do you want an aggro managment in EQN?

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154 posts found
  Karble

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/09
Posts: 695

I play therefor I am

7/17/13 11:27:04 AM#41
Originally posted by Gholos

I think that have an aggro managment in EQN is a very important thing cause without it i dont think that the game can have a challenging PvE. The only MMORPG  i have played without this system is GW2, and i really dont like how PvE works there, pratically all the istances are the same, the only thing you have to do is heal yourself, dodge roll, and do dps (all classes) and there is no coordination and strategy between party members, you have only to think to yourself to avoid being killed and do dps; so pratically you cant play a specific role:

1) you cant play a pure tank: cause without aggro managment and a taunt skill you cant take mobs and bosses on you

2) you cant play a pure dps: cause without a tank, you can take aggro and if you re a glass cannon you will go downed continously and without a pure healer you cant be healed efficently.

3) you cant play a pure healer: cause you re supposed to resist and do dps, and cause there is no tank that can help you taking mobs from you.

The GW2 system, that should give to players freedom to play what they want, give you the possibility to play many spec but 90% of these are totaly useless in PvE, so pratically all classes do the same things in PvE and there isnt a precise distiction between melee and ranged classes too, very often you have to stay ranged even with the stronger warrior or guardian cause if you go melee with certain boss you risk to being ista killed (cause you cant play a pure tank and be healed by pure healer).

For these reasons i would see in EQN a classic system for the classes, so an aggro managment with a trinity, howether i dont think that have to be a strict system, classes should have more spec possible (so for example you could play a warrior dps) but is fondamental that if you want to play a pure tank or a pure healer this can be possible and usefull for your party.

I vote: YES

 

You are 100% correct. Without agro management and agro skills, spells....the game would not be as fun.

I liked the idea of having to watch what you were doing closely with how you put out heals or damage etc. If you got over the agro table of the tank with summoning mobs, you could get summoned and smacked hard.  It also made agro a useful tool in kiting mobs around for me and a group. I would use a low cost high agro spell and snare and dots while my group sent pets and did melee damage from behind until the huge creature died.....sometimes taking several minutes. But it was this agro management that made this style of play and many many others possible and fun.

  Sabas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/05
Posts: 204

This is the sound of me

7/17/13 11:32:35 AM#42
Originally posted by Gallus85
 

I don't know if you want to be my dancing queen.  There are few that could handle this.

 

Seriously...??

 

I want to talk about EQnext in the EQnext forum, not GW2.

Thank you very much.

 

You are just giving me more reasons to avoid you and going from your posts thats actually what you want.

 

So be well and best of luck.

  Zuvielify

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/11
Posts: 170

7/17/13 11:36:09 AM#43

Voted yes

 

I think people griping over the word "taunt" is just a gripe over semantics. What if the ability was a mental-magic attack that forced the mob to turn towards the tank? All better. Now it's not "insults", but "magic".

 

There are many ways to do an agro management system that could be considered "realistic" in a fantasy setting. For example, maybe all classes get a de-agro ability that is on a short cooldown. Unfortunately, that would still be chaos because de-agroing a mob from yourself doesn't mean it goes back to the tank.

Instead, maybe certain classes have various ways of tricking a mob to fight a certain target (tank). Like, maybe the attack appears to come from the tank, so his agro builds more. For example, a wizard has a type of fireball that emanates from the tank, and gives the tank the agro, or a rogue's sneak attack is actually that: an attack that makes the mob think it came from someone else.

 

The problem with not having tanks is that everyone has to become more of a generalist. I've always liked the wide selection of specialized classes that EQ2 had. If everyone can heal, and everyone can cc, and everyone can tank, where is the excitement in the combat? In my opinion, there is none.

  Sabas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/05
Posts: 204

This is the sound of me

7/17/13 11:37:03 AM#44
Originally posted by Karble
 

 But it was this agro management that made this style of play and many many others possible and fun.

 

I'm going to agree with that, crowd control is something that has been lacking in pretty much all of the "2nd generation"  MMO's.

 

Though I don't want to get thrown back into a system where I need to watch agro meters.

I want all of that information by looking at the battle and not some artificial counter.

Watching cast bars isn't really that fun, IMO.

 

 

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1114

7/17/13 11:40:24 AM#45
Originally posted by SethiusX

Fair observations, but your basing a lot of what you say on anecdotal evidence (Your team did fine with little work).  This can be explained by chance (just how you guys each decided to spec happened to fall into the right roles or were using the good fields just by chance).

In a PUG group, you have a chance of getting all glass cannons, or a buncha of non-complementary players.  The dungeon would result in lots of downs and wipes and people would get frustrated and run to the forums, complaining about the dungeon being too hard.  Your team may have had little problems, but it was clear from the outcry on the GW2 forums that many people did in fact not understand the game mechanics and it did cause problems for them.

Your group was probably not all glass cannons and were performing the roles and playing correctly, just by accident or a little instinct.

As for not having a large effect that you would notice, I can see that reasoning.

However, when my group is all down under 25% hps, and my wife drops a water field, I do 2 blast finishers into the water field, pop my group heal, swap to my staff and use empowerment (heal / might AOE), and everyone is back to full health, people tend to notice that quite a lot.

Same with doing 3x blast finishers in fire + empowerment.  When people have max +25 might buff and the DPSers are pulling a lot bigger numbers, they notice that.

I agree some effects weren't as noticeable though.

But core argument still remains.  GW2 required roles and coordination on top of requiring everyone to fight, dodge and have a foot in combat.  People simply didn't understand what was going on and many cases they suffered for it.

I do like having more rigid roles, it's novel and reminiscent of fun times in original EQ.  But I feel that we're going to be moving away from that kind of combat.  It's just not cinematic.  It's not realistic.  Realistic combat is where everyone is a part of the fight.  Not just 1 person "taunting" and 5 other people laying into the monster that is somehow oblivious to the rest of the team.

 

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1114

7/17/13 11:43:56 AM#46
Originally posted by Pandamin
Originally posted by Gallus85
 

I don't know if you want to be my dancing queen.  There are few that could handle this.

 

Seriously...??

 

I want to talk about EQnext in the EQnext forum, not GW2.

Thank you very much.

 

You are just giving me more reasons to avoid you and going from your posts thats actually what you want.

 

So be well and best of luck.

Seriously, I was just picking on you.

And comparing and contrasting mechanics and features of other games to future games is common sense.  That's how the gaming industry moves forward.  We don't reinvent the wheel every time for every mechanic in every game.  We build on top of what previous programmers, artists and designers have done in the past.  Keep what works, fix what doesn't and improve on what we can.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Sabas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/05
Posts: 204

This is the sound of me

7/17/13 11:50:37 AM#47
Originally posted by Gallus85
Keep what works, fix what doesn't and improve on what we can.

See if you talk like a normal person I have no problem going into it.

 

Yes comparisons are good but you were not merely comparing.....lets leave it at that.

And GW2 did not remove the trinity....it only removed the agro system. See? There is no reason to be so confrontational with me. We are not on opposing teams, I already feel yukkie :) for even typing this. Because there was no need to drag this out.

 

Still I feel crowd control is what has been lacking severely.

If CC is added once again as a class on its own, its also no longer a trinity is it?...

 

edit: remove is perhaps the wrong word, GW2 didn't use the classic spank/tank agro system. Hate, is perhaps a better word for it.

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1114

7/17/13 11:57:04 AM#48
Originally posted by Pandamin
Originally posted by Gallus85
Keep what works, fix what doesn't and improve on what we can.

See if you talk like a normal person I have no problem going into it.

 

Yes comparisons are good but you were not merely comparing.....lets leave it at that.

And GW2 did not remove the trinity....it only removed the agro system. See? There is no reason to be so confrontational with me. We are not on opposing teams, I already feel yukkie :) for even typing this. Because there was no need to drag this out.

 

Still I feel crowd control is what has been lacking severely.

If CC is added once again as a class on its own, its also no longer a trinity is it?...

 

I was comparing.  The two systems are variations of the same thing, performed in a different way.

I wasn't being confrontational with you.  You misread my comments and took offense where none was given.

I didn't drag anything down.  I'm talking about games and how they went about specific mechanics.

CC is lacking in many games.  CC needs to be done right though.  In a more action pack and frantic way.  EQ's CC was too neat and tidy (but good for it's time).  I want to see CC take a more active combat role, keep the pressure off the group, but having to be extremely active and reactive to do so.  Pushing, stunning, lifting, confusing, all short duration skills that require the CC class to juggle, manage and interrupt monsters.  Not casting one "mez" and having the mob stand there for 2 minutes drooling on itself.

 

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  Dullahan

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 754

Death to Themepark.

7/17/13 11:57:30 AM#49
Aggro management is a no-brainer.  A system without it is just a bad system.

Played EQ, UO, DAoC, AO, WoW, EQII, Vanguard, Ryzom, Darkfall, Warhammer, Rift, MO, Tera, DFUW, Age of Wushu, NW2, ESO and many others I don't remember or care to admit.
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Awaiting The Repopulation, and Archeage.
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Don't be ignorant. Get an MMO education!

  Sabas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/05
Posts: 204

This is the sound of me

7/17/13 12:03:17 PM#50
Originally posted by Gallus85
I want to see CC take a more active combat role, keep the pressure off the group, but having to be extremely active and reactive to do so.

 

OK sure, np.

I took offense with all the tough talking yes, as I said I'm a sensible person I just don't want to waste my time on senseless keyboard fighting. So enough already, *shakes hand*

 

Oh yea I totally agree that the CC needs to be updated into a slightly more action packed combat system.

EQ was indeed very tidy but I think that had more to do with the dial up internet we had back then. 

How would CC become a more action packed experience.....

Perhaps CC would only be aplied after performing  a succesful combo? 

 

I'm assuming EQnext will have more action oriented combat...they did say they wanted to improve on the tropes and then add ontop of that. I really hope the combat will be more then what we have been playing for 15 years.

  wizardanim

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/24/07
Posts: 279

7/17/13 12:04:39 PM#51
Originally posted by Redemp

Holy Run-On sentence's Batman...

Voted yes,  this is Everquest.

Yes, this is Everquest.  But it concerns me that the devs feel it necessary to say things like:

(paraphrased): "We are changing so many things - we can't release anything until August 2nd because we want a chance to explain our shenanigans.  Note: we might release this in the 5 months following SOE live.".

I want to see the classic system (my concern is that they changed it too much) , but I also want to see new systems that compliment the old and might shock me a bit - or better yet, let me have some input into the combat system, where applicable.  I voted yes.

  SethiusX

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

7/17/13 12:19:42 PM#52
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by SethiusX

Fair observations, but your basing a lot of what you say on anecdotal evidence (Your team did fine with little work).  This can be explained by chance (just how you guys each decided to spec happened to fall into the right roles or were using the good fields just by chance).

In a PUG group, you have a chance of getting all glass cannons, or a buncha of non-complementary players.  The dungeon would result in lots of downs and wipes and people would get frustrated and run to the forums, complaining about the dungeon being too hard.  Your team may have had little problems, but it was clear from the outcry on the GW2 forums that many people did in fact not understand the game mechanics and it did cause problems for them.

Your group was probably not all glass cannons and were performing the roles and playing correctly, just by accident or a little instinct.

As for not having a large effect that you would notice, I can see that reasoning.

However, when my group is all down under 25% hps, and my wife drops a water field, I do 2 blast finishers into the water field, pop my group heal, swap to my staff and use empowerment (heal / might AOE), and everyone is back to full health, people tend to notice that quite a lot.

Same with doing 3x blast finishers in fire + empowerment.  When people have max +25 might buff and the DPSers are pulling a lot bigger numbers, they notice that.

I agree some effects weren't as noticeable though.

But core argument still remains.  GW2 required roles and coordination on top of requiring everyone to fight, dodge and have a foot in combat.  People simply didn't understand what was going on and many cases they suffered for it.

I do like having more rigid roles, it's novel and reminiscent of fun times in original EQ.  But I feel that we're going to be moving away from that kind of combat.  It's just not cinematic.  It's not realistic.  Realistic combat is where everyone is a part of the fight.  Not just 1 person "taunting" and 5 other people laying into the monster that is somehow oblivious to the rest of the team.

 

I'd agree that we are moving away from the slower pace of EQ1, but I don't think roles have outworn their stay just yet.

Sure, we may have been just lucky or just inexplicably skilled (which I doubt very much), but if a system exists where some combinations literally don't even have to think to get through content, then that is not a good thing. We had myself (Engineer), a guardian, a ranger, and a necro. We did actively choose skills that were more group friendly I concede, more aoe heals and aoe buffs, but it certainly was rarely a difficult challenge for us, and we didn't feel pushed.

The truth of the matter though, is that in GW2 there is a ton of inter-play between the classes and roles, and that they very much do help each other. But, it's because the support is mostly AoE skills that people don't realize how important that guardian is to your group. It always seems like you saved yourself with your big heal, which you probably did, but you didn't need to heal very often because the guardian was carrying you and you didn't know it.

What am I trying to say? I think it boils down to that I don't like something about the GW2 system of group play, and I don't really want to see anything similar implemented in other games.  I'm sure lots of people will disagree with me, and that is fine by me. 

Besides, GW2 made up for its lack of group play in PvE with its exceptional group play in PvP, in my mind. That's where I think their gameplay style really shines.

  Panzerbase

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 431

7/17/13 12:21:40 PM#53
Why are these polls even relevant, it's fairly obvious despite everything you post here they are doing whatever they want.
  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6097

7/17/13 12:22:39 PM#54
What I find disturbing is the fact that people are still debating over this hatred towards trinity mechanics even after GW2 showed you the reason the system was created in the first place.

  djazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/05
Posts: 3623

7/17/13 12:25:43 PM#55

as long as there is no miracle one button ability like Taunt. Such a horrible feature

what you are asking for is to make fights predictable

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1114

7/17/13 12:26:42 PM#56
Originally posted by SethiusX 

I'd agree that we are moving away from the slower pace of EQ1, but I don't think roles have outworn their stay just yet.

I don't think roles have outworn their stay at all, but I feel that action combat where the group is more involved and likely to be attacked / killed is going to be the norm.  Like my example, GW2 had roles, but everyone was in danger and had to dodge/heal/react to combat.

Sure, we may have been just lucky or just inexplicably skilled (which I doubt very much), but if a system exists where some combinations literally don't even have to think to get through content, then that is not a good thing. We had myself (Engineer), a guardian, a ranger, and a necro. We did actively choose skills that were more group friendly I concede, more aoe heals and aoe buffs, but it certainly was rarely a difficult challenge for us, and we didn't feel pushed.

Ya that's what I figured.  You guys were playing and complementing each other (and you were doing these things, it wasn't an accident).  This would be why you didn't have problems, compared to the PUG groups where everyone was a 100% glass cannon and getting floored every 3 seconds lol.

The truth of the matter though, is that in GW2 there is a ton of inter-play between the classes and roles, and that they very much do help each other. But, it's because the support is mostly AoE skills that people don't realize how important that guardian is to your group. It always seems like you saved yourself with your big heal, which you probably did, but you didn't need to heal very often because the guardian was carrying you and you didn't know it.

Exactly, and this is why it confused a lot of people.  They'd go into one random group and do great, then go into another and get floored, and blame it on the dungeon being too hard.  Instead of understanding how important the support roles were.

What am I trying to say? I think it boils down to that I don't like something about the GW2 system of group play, and I don't really want to see anything similar implemented in other games.  I'm sure lots of people will disagree with me, and that is fine by me.

People like what they like, but expect a lot of future games to have a large emphasis on action combat, with less rigid "roles". 

Besides, GW2 made up for its lack of group play in PvE with its exceptional group play in PvP, in my mind. That's where I think their gameplay style really shines.

I thought it shined well in both.  PVP was very balanced and there were tons of ways to play each class.  I also enjoyed that the PVE wasn't a complete snooze fest like most recent games.  

 

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  SethiusX

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

7/17/13 12:32:53 PM#57
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by SethiusX 

 We did actively choose skills that were more group friendly I concede, more aoe heals and aoe buffs, but it certainly was rarely a difficult challenge for us, and we didn't feel pushed.

Ya that's what I figured.  You guys were playing and complementing each other (and you were doing these things, it wasn't an accident).  This would be why you didn't have problems, compared to the PUG groups where everyone was a 100% glass cannon and getting floored every 3 seconds lol.

 

That pretty much sums up why I thought the system was bad. We happened upon a good combination by chance (not all glass cannons) and simply by using lots of aoe heal spells, we could ignore the whole group play element almost entirely, including the combo system, and do quite well. We just dodged around like fools and shot at things. Not good when only the bad class combinations have to actually think about group play. 

  Seebs

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/13
Posts: 5

7/17/13 12:37:53 PM#58

I enjoy trying to read the minds of the developers tha tclaim ' we will change the way you think of MMORPGs'  so I try to think outside of the box on every question on this board.

 

Aggro management - as a healer I love it. But if I were ti create a game that is unlike otehrs I would incorporate the following ideas:

Have the PvE mobs follow the strats fo PVP warfare.  I dislike PVP because as a healer I am targetted first. Make the mobs in EQC have different levels of hatred for different classes before you even aggro. Would make it fun and a roll of the dice on what you have to do group wise as a strategy.

Have mobs attack the players furthest from the action -  similar to my first though but again again, casters and healers stay back.

 Have mobs surrender if they are outmatched and perhaps your group surrender if the same occurs. Faction would take a hit as well as some form of 'glory' status.  I dunno - just spweing.

 

August 2 will be fun.

 

 

 

  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1371

7/17/13 12:38:45 PM#59
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
Gholos i've seen a lot of your posts and I think we are on the same page man. I hated GW2 group combat.

I couldn't agree with the both you more. I really dislike group play in Guild Wars 2 as it ALWAYS feels disorganized with people running around dodging and dps'ing. It looks and feels ridiculous to me. To the point that I can't even play the game. I've always been a big fan of the trinity as I love to have a purpose. I really hope they don't go the gw2 route. 

  Gallus85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/11
Posts: 1114

7/17/13 12:45:47 PM#60
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by SethiusX 

 We did actively choose skills that were more group friendly I concede, more aoe heals and aoe buffs, but it certainly was rarely a difficult challenge for us, and we didn't feel pushed.

Ya that's what I figured.  You guys were playing and complementing each other (and you were doing these things, it wasn't an accident).  This would be why you didn't have problems, compared to the PUG groups where everyone was a 100% glass cannon and getting floored every 3 seconds lol.

 

That pretty much sums up why I thought the system was bad. We happened upon a good combination by chance (not all glass cannons) and simply by using lots of aoe heal spells, we could ignore the whole group play element almost entirely, including the combo system, and do quite well. We just dodged around like fools and shot at things. Not good when only the bad class combinations have to actually think about group play. 

I don't see your point.  You guys created a system that was group friendly with heals and buffs and such (That's not "ignoring" the whole group play")  You were thinking about the group when you made your character builds.  That's good.  I don't see how that's bad.

That's the same as saying "We shouldn't go into this dungeon unless we have a healer".  You're thinking about the group, it's just done in a different way, to achieve the same effect, in GW2.

Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

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