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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » SoE has the most dishonest payment model of all MMO companies.

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81 posts found
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2435

World > Quest Progression

7/16/13 5:24:49 PM#21
OP you answered your own question, they are in business and constantly updating thier games unlike other "better than" F2P models. SoE does this by actually has a model that is attractive to both subs and free players. The brilliant part is that they don't have to have the servers stocked to get by and have a good income.

Their model isn't dishonest at all. You can pay for as much or as least as you want and feel that it's worth it. I really don't know how you come to your conclusion.
  Latronus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 718

PC is not political correctness, it means Political Cowardice!

7/16/13 5:28:55 PM#22
Originally posted by dejoblue

Sorry, Blizzard wins here again. They are introducing XP potions and loot coins for sale in Asia and may bring them to the US, they are testing them out first. Like SOE does.

 

Blizzard is also going to sell appearance items, like SOE does, starting with helms, among other things. Last I checked Blizzard charges $15 per month, requires a base game purchase and IIRC requires 2 expansions purchases to get up to date.

The entire industry is moving this way with DLC being the first push. Once XBOXONE and PS4 have full streaming available I expect to see a LOT more f2p games pop up on that platform.

So, let me understand your logic.  Blizzard is copying SOEs model making Blizzard second in using it and they win?  They are cloning SOE yet again and they win.  Well this just goes to show how you WoW fanbois are playing ball in left field in Minute Maid Park while the ball was hit to right field in Candlestick.  Keep trying, maybe you'll get a hit someday...

  versulas

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 284

7/16/13 5:31:50 PM#23
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
Originally posted by Waterlily

.....................  Tell me again why this company is still in business.

Prob because we're still forming a raid to assault EA.

So true... 

In other news, swtor calls itself f2p but has everything you listed as well >.>

  Aysono

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 164

7/16/13 5:34:01 PM#24
Originally posted by Latronus
Originally posted by dejoblue

Sorry, Blizzard wins here again. They are introducing XP potions and loot coins for sale in Asia and may bring them to the US, they are testing them out first. Like SOE does.

 

Blizzard is also going to sell appearance items, like SOE does, starting with helms, among other things. Last I checked Blizzard charges $15 per month, requires a base game purchase and IIRC requires 2 expansions purchases to get up to date.

The entire industry is moving this way with DLC being the first push. Once XBOXONE and PS4 have full streaming available I expect to see a LOT more f2p games pop up on that platform.

So, let me understand your logic.  Blizzard is copying SOEs model making Blizzard second in using it and they win?  They are cloning SOE yet again and they win.  Well this just goes to show how you WoW fanbois are playing ball in left field in Minute Maid Park while the ball was hit to right field in Candlestick.  Keep trying, maybe you'll get a hit someday...

The major difference is subscription in SOE games are optional but mandatory in WoW, unless you tell me "free up to level 20" is not just a cheap demo of the game.

  AG-Vuk

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/26/04
Posts: 817

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
Oh, I see it's too late to help you.

7/16/13 5:37:13 PM#25
Yeah , PWI/Cryptic although F2P is extremely overpriced. Once you order you get no receipt of what you purchased and there's no log or method of purchase history. There's no way to dispute a purchase unless you keep meticulous records and keep a screen shot record of every dime spent.

  Karahandras

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/08
Posts: 1667

All it takes for evil to succeed is for the good to stand by and do nothing

7/16/13 5:41:11 PM#26
Originally posted by Waterlily

While people argue about P2P and F2P.

(I greatly prefer P2P)

SoE does something very different from both P2P and F2P.

 

Their games are called F2P, but they include:

-$15 monthly P2P subscriptions within the same game to unlock levels / classes / abilities

-the buying of expansions

-cash shop

 

So what SoE does is combine a cash shop with F2P, and with P2P.

 

Tell me again why this company is still in business.

You forgot the lockboxes

  Karahandras

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/08
Posts: 1667

All it takes for evil to succeed is for the good to stand by and do nothing

7/16/13 5:44:27 PM#27
Originally posted by Wolfenpride

The worst part about SoE's model I find is the lock/gold member requirement for high tier gear. Especially in Vanguard, where good gear is pretty accessible and really makes a difference in soloing performance.

I'm not sure if they still do it, but iirc EQ2 also wouldn't let free players sell stuff on the market. That's a bit much if they still do that, but otherwise they've opened it up a good bit since they first started this model, and I prefer the option to just subscribe and get everything if I plan on seriously playing the game.

It looks like it.  Also isn't the retricted gear more important in the eq games? Making it a more p2w style model?

  Hrimnir

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1098

7/16/13 5:44:58 PM#28

Its a combination of two things.

1. (some) people posess this thing called self control, and are able to make concious decisions to participate or not participate in said cash shops.

2. Jobs.  This is where you work, and you get paid for the work you do.  They then give you something called money, which you spend on things like food, clothes, housing, entertainment, etc.  Fora healthy portion of people with jobs, $15/mo really isnt a lot of money.  So they dont consider these payment models to be some kind of scam, etc, like some of the people on here do.

 

Here is a list of things that cost more than an MMO subscription:

Movie Theater Ticket

1 weeks worth of gasoline

Dinner at just about any restaurant anywhere

A large pizza

A non name brand, walmart t-shirt

Etc

 

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5545

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

7/16/13 5:52:31 PM#29

there is a way to to fix this model.

 

1)  Subscribers dont need to buy cash shop, they get all of that in game.

2)  Do not limit free players from progression to make them buy cash shop. Let the cash shop be boosts and fluff, no progression stuff.

 

3) Give bonus subscription days to anyone buying from the cash shop (subbers and freebies alike). Depending on how much money they spend on cash shop they get certain amount of subscription days as bonus.  THis way if you dont buy cash shop you play the game with the traditional free way of playing, but if you buy cash shop you get sub days as bonus which will give you the subscribers status for the ammount of days earned. THis third point is very important and companies should start doing this to help their own models. It encourages people to both subscribe or invest in cash shop without being forced to pay or be left behind.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7951

7/16/13 5:56:16 PM#30
Same as tsw.I don't know if SOE is fair but I can say fucom use that system and they re fair.some took one time payment (a LA lotr)other use monthly(yes some perk are in those but the game is still balanced.some buy each episode.other use their point to look epicly stupid.etc .in the end this system as a lot going for it.but it has its pitfall.(gambler part)but so far this is the most inclusive system .I take what I like other do the SaME everybody is happy.
  User Deleted
7/16/13 6:01:46 PM#31
Originally posted by dejoblue

Sorry, Blizzard wins here again. They are introducing XP potions and loot coins for sale in Asia and may bring them to the US, they are testing them out first. Like SOE does.

 

Blizzard is also going to sell appearance items, like SOE does, starting with helms, among other things. Last I checked Blizzard charges $15 per month, requires a base game purchase and IIRC requires 2 expansions purchases to get up to date.

The entire industry is moving this way with DLC being the first push. Once XBOXONE and PS4 have full streaming available I expect to see a LOT more f2p games pop up on that platform.

 

I liked the above comment. I've been examining this myself quite a bit lately. I've been a PC-only gamer since the end of the PS2-era until a few months ago when I finally got a 360. I've always heard about DLC but had never experienced it. So imagine my surprise upon finally checking out some DLC for the small 360 game library I have.

 

I remember thinking..."holy cow, this is B2P + cash shop monetization model." And from what I could tell in browsing 360's DLC section it is the Norm, not the exception. Everything from Fluff DLC to playable maps to unique weapons. Wow. Just wow.  It is not just MMOs that are seeing change with the Asian F2P biz mentality. It's console too. I wonder how well that's going over with console-only gamers? If I recall correctly - as an example, you can't play every Halo multiplayer map unless you buy them - separately from the original box. Some are behind a paywall.

 

I've come to think that in some respects the monikers P2P/F2P/B2P are too vague to explain the variety of monetization models those 3 terms cover.

 

Look at the dispute that was in another thread over whose definition is the correct definition of those 3 terms:

 

Originally posted by Gallus85
Originally posted by Waterlily
Originally posted by Gallus85

No I'm just educating you on what the terms mean and trying to drive home that you're wrong.

F2P means having zero money requirement to enter the game, at any time.

So WoW is F2P since there are no restrictions to entering the game either, you can play WoW up to a certain point without paying a dime. By your definition WoW is F2P.

Stop trying to "educate me", please, and if you don't play the games you talk about, frankly stop quoting me.

I already listed the SOE games I play.

WoW recently went F2P, yes.

It used to be P2P (You could only play a trial for a few days), but now it's F2P.  You can log into WoW at any time and play up to level 20 without spending any money.

So WoW by definition is now a F2P game, though probably the most restrictive F2P game on the market. (cap lvl 20 / 100)

 

I'm betting Gallus85 is one of the few people who claim WoW is a F2P game but at least he's consistent with his definition.

 

To me I break down game categories a bit differently.

 

I would say Wow is more correctly identified as an Unlimited Trial Account game. Everything is open to you up to level 20. A potential MMO player has a better idea of what he/she will be getting into when I explain it to them this way instead of using the F2P, B2P or Sub moniker.

 

SoE (from what I remember 2 years ago when I last checked them out) is an Unlimited Play with Varying Restrictions Account kind of game. It doesn't matter what kind of restriction it is. The operating principle in my mind is whether the account of all players has the same "rules" per account. No distinction is made by the publisher between the type of account a player has whether they buy something via "sub" or "cash shop" or not at all.  Path of Exile best exemplifies this model in my opinion. The game has a dedicated fanbase and from what I can tell is well-supported financially by that base (anyone ever see all the Kripparian vids on YouTube about it? Grinding Gear is lucky. Pubs salivate at getting fans like him. They sell the game for you with zero expense to your bottom line.)

 

And even my 2 examples above don't cover the gamut of the business models being tried out these days. MMOs wouldn't be having these problems if 1) investors didn't see evidence that the exponential growth curve of the mmo playing market had passed it's peak. Plus 2) other markets (primarily mobile & social) have not yet discovered their respective "max number of paying gamers" potential. and 3) had grown so expensive that better RoI ratios is to be found in funding other kinds of games.

 

One small side note that has nothing to do with the above:  I don't ever expect Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo ever being able to match Steam when it comes to game prices (much less discounts) for the simple fact that those companies have huge on-going costs that Valve doesn't have. A huge company with huge costs must constantly generate equally huge hits to cover those costs if they hope to continue to convince Wall Street that their stock is still a good place to sink money to make more money. Otherwise you'll see their stock tank and calls begin to arise from Wall Street for a needed change to the Executive team.

  User Deleted
7/16/13 6:05:00 PM#32
Originally posted by AG-Vuk
Yeah , PWI/Cryptic although F2P is extremely overpriced. Once you order you get no receipt of what you purchased and there's no log or method of purchase history. There's no way to dispute a purchase unless you keep meticulous records and keep a screen shot record of every dime spent.

 

Actually that is not true. I've received an email receipt of my purchases everytime. Also you can log into your account on PWI's site and in your account history you'll actually see a running log of all purchases that have ever been made by you plus the date they were made + the amount and a tracking number.

  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1175

7/16/13 6:06:05 PM#33

A few things to explain why they're still in business

Real-time radiosity
Nvidia PhysX (SDK 3.2)
Motion blur
Fully Flexible Time of Day System
Eye adaptation & HDR lighting
Support for Microsoft DirectX 9

It's pretty damn impressive what the Forgelight engine is capable of. Moreover it's their engine to use, not a licensed engine from another developer. I mean you can't deny that Planet Side 2 looks pretty.

  Zarriya

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 227

7/16/13 6:06:57 PM#34
Originally posted by Waterlily

While people argue about P2P and F2P.

(I greatly prefer P2P)

SoE does something very different from both P2P and F2P.

 

Their games are called F2P, but they include:

-$15 monthly P2P subscriptions within the same game to unlock levels / classes / abilities

-the buying of expansions

-cash shop

 

So what SoE does is combine a cash shop with F2P, and with P2P.

 

Tell me again why this company is still in business.

 agree with you that I strongly dislike SOE's payment module. However I really like Eq2, I think its one of the best games on the market, so they get my money.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6732

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

7/16/13 6:30:37 PM#35

I am glad you see the truth behind Smedley not SOE.This should be mentioned more and more by MANY people because yes there are people inside SOE who read forums.

I have tried over and over to figure Smedley out,nothing he does makes sense from a players stand point ,always seems to be a SOE thing and nothing more.

This is what i think goes through Smed's head ..lol.That rhymes .

I believe he figures that rather than try to go big time with 5 million players ,he figures it is a better overall pl;an to cater to less that spend more.It gives a bigger profit margin but of course lessens the chance to make it rich.When you try to cater to MANY players you have to run tons of servers buy up tons of blocks of bandwidth every month,tons of GM's,tons of support calls.Then they never know if half those players will be gone one month to the next.

However when they  have those that are willing to spend with no care for their pocket book,it lets SOE know they have those people as super loyal fans.This allows them to operate with a VERY small overhead but still make a higher profit margin equivalent to having maybe 2/3/4/5x more players.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19749

7/16/13 6:43:12 PM#36
Originally posted by Hrimnir

Its a combination of two things.

1. (some) people posess this thing called self control, and are able to make concious decisions to participate or not participate in said cash shops.

2. Jobs.  This is where you work, and you get paid for the work you do.  They then give you something called money, which you spend on things like food, clothes, housing, entertainment, etc.  Fora healthy portion of people with jobs, $15/mo really isnt a lot of money.  So they dont consider these payment models to be some kind of scam, etc, like some of the people on here do.

 

Here is a list of things that cost more than an MMO subscription:

Movie Theater Ticket

1 weeks worth of gasoline

Dinner at just about any restaurant anywhere

A large pizza

A non name brand, walmart t-shirt

Etc

 

It is not about whether one can afford it. It is about the free alternatives.

When i go out with my wife, any decent date dinner is $100 or more, and special occasion is more like $200-300.

So $15 is not a lot. Heck, a hot toy Avenger figure (which i collect) costs $200+. However, if i can get the same amount of fun for free, why would I even want to pay $15? I won't even pay $5 (which i drop without a second thought on iOS games).

It is the competition, and perception of values. Very seldom is about affordability.

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

7/16/13 6:49:02 PM#37
Originally posted by Waterlily

While people argue about P2P and F2P.

(I greatly prefer P2P)

SoE does something very different from both P2P and F2P.

 

Their games are called F2P, but they include:

-$15 monthly P2P subscriptions within the same game to unlock levels / classes / abilities

-the buying of expansions

-cash shop

 

So what SoE does is combine a cash shop with F2P, and with P2P.

 

Tell me again why this company is still in business.

- Because they are turning a profit.

- Because they give their customers more flexible options for payment.

 - Blizzard is all sub-based, not f2p at all AND they have a cash shop - wouldn't that make them greater slime by your defintion?

- If you are paying a subscription, but then cannot resist also buying from the cash shop.....is the problem really with SOE or your own shopping habits?

  AG-Vuk

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/26/04
Posts: 817

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
Oh, I see it's too late to help you.

7/16/13 6:56:45 PM#38
Originally posted by JustARandomPanda
Originally posted by AG-Vuk
Yeah , PWI/Cryptic although F2P is extremely overpriced. Once you order you get no receipt of what you purchased and there's no log or method of purchase history. There's no way to dispute a purchase unless you keep meticulous records and keep a screen shot record of every dime spent.

 

Actually that is not true. I've received an email receipt of my purchases everytime. Also you can log into your account on PWI's site and in your account history you'll actually see a running log of all purchases that have ever been made by you plus the date they were made + the amount and a tracking number.

Perhaps I misread something in this thread , or you're just plain wrong.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/352/view/forums/post/5832463#5832463

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4785

7/16/13 7:10:01 PM#39
Wow this thread is breaking news! A company that's free to play offers most of it's content with a sub....maybe we should call this type of game Freemium.

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  Ratero

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 306

7/16/13 7:30:28 PM#40

My Nephew and I were playing Neverwinter and he bought a bag from the cash shop.  He was messing around and resized the bag so his inventory was the way he liked it and somehow ONE 80 point (lowbie) crit potion got bugged.  He did not realize it at first and used up the stack of potions and used the bugged potion several times.  One he noticed the bugged potion he put in a bug report and in game GM's popped in a bit later and they tried to figure out what was going on and if it was repeatable or not.  Eventually the GM's deleted all his potions that were in his bag and it looked like that fixed the issue.  A few weeks later he get's an email telling him he's going to have a 30 day suspension since he utilized a bug in game. Really?  After doing the bug report and talking to GM's in game about the problem they are going to ban him for 30 days?  Anyway... he eventually gets someone on line and things get heated and he mentions that he may want a refund.  I know... Perfect World and refund = permaban, but he did not know that at the time.  Well they banned him from Neverwinter and all the other Perfect World games he had investments in.  He did manage to get his Founders money back from Neverwinter and some of the coin back from the other games since he went to Paypal to get the charges reversed.  But he's now perma banned from Perfect World games.  They have not just banned his email but they have banned his IP address.  He currently has a static IP address for his school work.... (don't ask me why it's a static IP I don't know, but it is).

I'll take SOE over Perfect World anyday.

Ratero.

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