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News & Features Discussion  » Elder Scrolls Online: All About Dungeons

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  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

7/16/13 7:59:41 AM#21
Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by SethiusX

"Most locales, however, will be accessible by everyone. Some might be too dangerous for you because of your current level, but you can always come back when you are more powerful if you want to complete them solo. We recommend grabbing a friend or grouping up with a stranger if it seems too tough, though, because that’s all part of the fun."

 

If these open world "locales", including forts and dungeons that are not used as instances, are really large (full explorable dungeon size), dangerous (need a group), and play an important role in leveling (ie: it is difficult to level fast without utilizing them), then I can see this game being fun.

If these "locales" are small, generally easy, and hardly needed to level or offer little reward, then people will mostly skip them. If people can level faster with quests to kill wolves, then people will generally choose that. Not you and I, but the general population seems to always pick the fastest and easiest method through MMO's.

The big problem I see is based on what it says there, you can just skip them and come back when you are a higher level, meaning you don't need to do the open world dungeons when leveling, so people will just power-level past on whatever is the fastest method to level and then come back and clear them when they are easy to solo.

 

I really do not see that as an issue really. With how the reward system works in ESO, I don't think the rewards for these locales will be set, meaning each player will get different rewards. This pretty much means you will not know till you go there and do the dungeon. Course I very well could be wrong about this. *shrugs*

We are also talking about an Elder scrolls game here. It's going to have a very large Elder Scrolls player base, which are used to the non easy route.

I do hope that you're right, and that the default MMO issues do not plague this game. 

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17626

7/16/13 8:05:32 AM#22
Originally posted by immodium
 

Most had a loading screen when you enter or leave a dungeon. Is that not an instance? If not they sure felt like instances.

I remember a fair few times If I got overwhelmed by bandits I could just run and leave the dungeon and they wouldn't follow me out. If it wasn't instanced wouldn't they follow me out of the dungeon?

 

Actually it's not an instance. At all. An instance means one of multiple possible copies of an area.

They way it worked in skyrim is that it's a "cell" or zone. Just because you have a loading screen doesn't mean it's an instance.

If you look at it in the toolset it's just a separate cell but never are there multiple copies. If you could figure out a way to bring antoher player into the game they would enter the same "zone" or cell as you.

Also, in oblivion the monsters would follow you out Not sure why they didn't include this in skyrim.

Also for the people who are complaining about instances, once again:

Certain rare locales will just be for solo players, and some dungeons are meant for groups made only of people you choose to go in with. Most locales, however, will be accessible by everyone.

 

  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1405

7/16/13 8:09:11 AM#23
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by immodium
 

Most had a loading screen when you enter or leave a dungeon. Is that not an instance? If not they sure felt like instances.

I remember a fair few times If I got overwhelmed by bandits I could just run and leave the dungeon and they wouldn't follow me out. If it wasn't instanced wouldn't they follow me out of the dungeon?

 

Actually it's not an instance. At all. An instance means one of multiple possible copies of an area.

They way it worked in skyrim is that it's a "cell" or zone. Just because you have a loading screen doesn't mean it's an instance.

If you look at it in the toolset it's just a separate cell but never are there multiple copies. If you could figure out a way to bring antoher player into the game they would enter the same "zone" or cell as you.

Also, in oblivion the monsters would follow you out Not sure why they didn't include this in skyrim.

Also for the people who are complaining about instances, once again:

Certain rare locales will just be for solo players, and some dungeons are meant for groups made only of people you choose to go in with. Most locales, however, will be accessible by everyone.

 

Gotcha.

  Brabbit1987

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 718

7/16/13 8:12:26 AM#24
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by immodium
 

Most had a loading screen when you enter or leave a dungeon. Is that not an instance? If not they sure felt like instances.

I remember a fair few times If I got overwhelmed by bandits I could just run and leave the dungeon and they wouldn't follow me out. If it wasn't instanced wouldn't they follow me out of the dungeon?

 

Actually it's not an instance. At all. An instance means one of multiple possible copies of an area.

They way it worked in skyrim is that it's a "cell" or zone. Just because you have a loading screen doesn't mean it's an instance.

If you look at it in the toolset it's just a separate cell but never are there multiple copies. If you could figure out a way to bring antoher player into the game they would enter the same "zone" or cell as you.

Also, in oblivion the monsters would follow you out Not sure why they didn't include this in skyrim.

Also for the people who are complaining about instances, once again:

Certain rare locales will just be for solo players, and some dungeons are meant for groups made only of people you choose to go in with. Most locales, however, will be accessible by everyone.

 

lol it's alright, I have pointed that out already. As I said though, no matter how much you point out what is said in the article they are going to complain either way.

  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

7/16/13 8:14:53 AM#25
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by immodium
 

Most had a loading screen when you enter or leave a dungeon. Is that not an instance? If not they sure felt like instances.

I remember a fair few times If I got overwhelmed by bandits I could just run and leave the dungeon and they wouldn't follow me out. If it wasn't instanced wouldn't they follow me out of the dungeon?

 

Actually it's not an instance. At all. An instance means one of multiple possible copies of an area.

They way it worked in skyrim is that it's a "cell" or zone. Just because you have a loading screen doesn't mean it's an instance.

If you look at it in the toolset it's just a separate cell but never are there multiple copies. If you could figure out a way to bring antoher player into the game they would enter the same "zone" or cell as you.

Also, in oblivion the monsters would follow you out Not sure why they didn't include this in skyrim.

Also for the people who are complaining about instances, once again:

Certain rare locales will just be for solo players, and some dungeons are meant for groups made only of people you choose to go in with. Most locales, however, will be accessible by everyone.

 

I believe in practical application in modern MMO's, players (at least in games like WoW) use instance to describe a dungeon for just them or for just their group. I'd say all of the dungeons in skyrim fit this criteria, but only because it is a single player game and the comparison is academic and little more. All single player games could be considered an instance in that manner, because you have a copy of the game for just you out of all the copies out there. It's a loose argument to be certain, although perhaps about as strong as most of the discussions on these forums ;)

I think comparing Skyrim to ESO is valid in some ways, but certainly not when comparing MMO features, since Skyrim has none.

  Bjelar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/12
Posts: 384

7/16/13 8:18:24 AM#26
Originally posted by SethiusX

If these "locales" are small, generally easy, and hardly needed to level or offer little reward, then people will mostly skip them. 

What does that tell us about how fun the group content is in most games?

Give me an option to skip it and I will, therefore games must FORCE people to group up.

  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

7/16/13 8:30:53 AM#27
Originally posted by Bjelar
Originally posted by SethiusX

If these "locales" are small, generally easy, and hardly needed to level or offer little reward, then people will mostly skip them. 

What does that tell us about how fun the group content is in most games?

Give me an option to skip it and I will, therefore games must FORCE people to group up.

You could be right, but I suspect it tells us more about the state of the human mind. We naturally follow the path of least resistance, it's in our nature, and if we are offered one we take it. Not all will be like that, but I suspect many will. 

I think the group content in many games is very engaging if only because you are conquering something together as a team, which presents its own challenges in and of itself, but the average player chooses to forgo that and level faster solo.

  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1405

7/16/13 8:35:48 AM#28
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Bjelar
Originally posted by SethiusX

If these "locales" are small, generally easy, and hardly needed to level or offer little reward, then people will mostly skip them. 

What does that tell us about how fun the group content is in most games?

Give me an option to skip it and I will, therefore games must FORCE people to group up.

You could be right, but I suspect it tells us more about the state of the human mind. We naturally follow the path of least resistance, it's in our nature, and if we are offered one we take it. Not all will be like that, but I suspect many will. 

I think the group content in many games is very engaging if only because you are conquering something together as a team, which presents its own challenges in and of itself, but the average player chooses to forgo that and level faster solo.

I think the opposite, If I have to ask for help I've taken the easy way out, I couldn't face the challenge on my own. I actually don't group with people because it's more challenging. I group up because it's more fun to play with/against people.

  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

7/16/13 9:19:03 AM#29
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by Bjelar
Originally posted by SethiusX

If these "locales" are small, generally easy, and hardly needed to level or offer little reward, then people will mostly skip them. 

What does that tell us about how fun the group content is in most games?

Give me an option to skip it and I will, therefore games must FORCE people to group up.

You could be right, but I suspect it tells us more about the state of the human mind. We naturally follow the path of least resistance, it's in our nature, and if we are offered one we take it. Not all will be like that, but I suspect many will. 

I think the group content in many games is very engaging if only because you are conquering something together as a team, which presents its own challenges in and of itself, but the average player chooses to forgo that and level faster solo.

I think the opposite, If I have to ask for help I've taken the easy way out, I couldn't face the challenge on my own. I actually don't group with people because it's more challenging. I group up because it's more fun to play with/against people.

I think we're talking about games where you can solo all the way to end game (which I realize is the majority of current MMO's). Why would you bother to group, save for fun as you said, if you can muscle your way through the game on your own? It's time consuming to deal with others if it's not needed, and time is money friend. This is a blanket statement, and your mileage may vary, but in general arranging others to do stuff together takes time.

Why complete that challenging group quest for 10k exp, when I can do 5 quests in the same time that offer 3k exp each? In MMO's, time = challenge (a sad truth).

WoW's LFD is a good example of group content that offers little or no challenge. People do it because it is the path of least resistance to leveling. Soloing is actually harder (which doesn't say much), and as a result, the LFD has become a very easy and quick way to level. This seems good on the surface because now people do group content, but to entice people into doing the group content Blizzard had to gut the soul right out of grouping. It had to be easier/faster than the solo method in order to make it appealing and that, I think, highlights the terrible state MMO's are in.

In the end, give me group content that is far more rewarding than solo content, for time invested, and I will do it. I enjoy challenge, but the reward is what drives it. I like the solo option to be available, but make it very slow compared to grouping. That is my preference. BUT, people will probably call that forced grouping and get angry anyway. I do pity the MMO's dev's out there to some degree, as it must be nigh on impossible to please us all ;)

  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1405

7/16/13 10:05:52 AM#30
Originally posted by SethiusX

I think we're talking about games where you can solo all the way to end game (which I realize is the majority of current MMO's). Why would you bother to group, save for fun as you said, if you can muscle your way through the game on your own? It's time consuming to deal with others if it's not needed, and time is money friend. This is a blanket statement, and your mileage may vary, but in general arranging others to do stuff together takes time.

Why complete that challenging group quest for 10k exp, when I can do 5 quests in the same time that offer 3k exp each? In MMO's, time = challenge (a sad truth).

WoW's LFD is a good example of group content that offers little or no challenge. People do it because it is the path of least resistance to leveling. Soloing is actually harder (which doesn't say much), and as a result, the LFD has become a very easy and quick way to level. This seems good on the surface because now people do group content, but to entice people into doing the group content Blizzard had to gut the soul right out of grouping. It had to be easier/faster than the solo method in order to make it appealing and that, I think, highlights the terrible state MMO's are in.

In the end, give me group content that is far more rewarding than solo content, for time invested, and I will do it. I enjoy challenge, but the reward is what drives it. I like the solo option to be available, but make it very slow compared to grouping. That is my preference. BUT, people will probably call that forced grouping and get angry anyway. I do pity the MMO's dev's out there to some degree, as it must be nigh on impossible to please us all ;)

I actually agree with you that in MMO's grouping should have more benefits/rewards than soloing. Personally, when it comes to multiplayer games I'm a PvPer, that's where the challenges lies for me. I have no interest in PvE TBH, I'll do it when I want a break from PvP. So IMO, PvP'ers should be rewarded more :). A hell of a lot more if they are actually soloing PvP.

Also, coming from a PvP background with no progression (FPS) I'm not bothered about rewards for doing it. I'll just find a good PvP guild and have fun fighting in a team, against a team. Like going to play sports with friends, I don't need a reward afterwards for doing it, it was just fun.

Like you said though, it does boil down to time for most gamers now.

EDIT: Might seem weird why I just don't stick to FPS then, I do enjoy the 'worlds' MMORPG's offer and I'm really enjoying character progression/skill systems most FPS lack. And TBH, I'm burned out playing FPS.

  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

7/16/13 10:25:50 AM#31
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by SethiusX

I think we're talking about games where you can solo all the way to end game (which I realize is the majority of current MMO's). Why would you bother to group, save for fun as you said, if you can muscle your way through the game on your own? It's time consuming to deal with others if it's not needed, and time is money friend. This is a blanket statement, and your mileage may vary, but in general arranging others to do stuff together takes time.

Why complete that challenging group quest for 10k exp, when I can do 5 quests in the same time that offer 3k exp each? In MMO's, time = challenge (a sad truth).

WoW's LFD is a good example of group content that offers little or no challenge. People do it because it is the path of least resistance to leveling. Soloing is actually harder (which doesn't say much), and as a result, the LFD has become a very easy and quick way to level. This seems good on the surface because now people do group content, but to entice people into doing the group content Blizzard had to gut the soul right out of grouping. It had to be easier/faster than the solo method in order to make it appealing and that, I think, highlights the terrible state MMO's are in.

In the end, give me group content that is far more rewarding than solo content, for time invested, and I will do it. I enjoy challenge, but the reward is what drives it. I like the solo option to be available, but make it very slow compared to grouping. That is my preference. BUT, people will probably call that forced grouping and get angry anyway. I do pity the MMO's dev's out there to some degree, as it must be nigh on impossible to please us all ;)

I actually agree with you that in MMO's grouping should have more benefits/rewards than soloing. Personally, when it comes to multiplayer games I'm a PvPer, that's where the challenges lies for me. I have no interest in PvE TBH, I'll do it when I want a break from PvP. So IMO, PvP'ers should be rewarded more :). A hell of a lot more if they are actually soloing PvP.

Also, coming from a PvP background with no progression (FPS) I'm not bothered about rewards for doing it. I'll just find a good PvP guild and have fun fighting in a team, against a team. Like going to play sports with friends, I don't need a reward afterwards for doing it, it was just fun.

Like you said though, it does boil down to time for most gamers now.

EDIT: Might seem weird why I just don't stick to FPS then, I do enjoy the 'worlds' MMORPG's offer and I'm really enjoying character progression/skill systems most FPS lack. And TBH, I'm burned out playing FPS.

It takes all types. I think that FPS players typically are more accepting of mmo's that make the reward the fun, like GW2 (which was very fun). People that come from an RPG background, like myself, savor those juicy rewards, like getting the top gear in WoW.

Of course, there is much more too it, but the gameplay of an MMO isn't typically as satisfying due to technology constraints (or so that was in the past, today they are improving), so developer's had to give players something to strive for. It created a culture that has yet to change. Perhaps it shouldn't. We may be bored of the distinct flavor of MMO's, but that doesn't mean we want to lose it altogether. We just want to season it properly.

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