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General Discussion  » Are classes really a sandbox feature?

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93 posts found
  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1116

7/16/13 4:26:53 AM#21
Originally posted by Waterlily
It's becoming very apparent that every person has a completely different definition of what is a sandbox.

Bingo!  And the winner is....

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Arglebargle

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Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1116

7/16/13 4:34:12 AM#22

Classes are a meta-game feature that makes life easier on the developers.   They don't have to work as hard on balance issues, because fewer avenues are available for the player.   It's definitely a constriction of player freedom, and sometimes the classes  make little, if any sense.  In the game's internal logic.  To the developer, again, it's a conveniance.   

 

 

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Lord.Bachus

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7/16/13 4:39:29 AM#23

Classes can be a sandbox feuture if their is enough room to differentiate from other players.

 

but then this game is not going to be a sandbox, sure there will be a lotof sandbox features, but i am still asuming the game will combine the strong things of a sandbox with the strong things of a themeparkand walk themiddle of the road

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2888

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

7/16/13 4:46:04 AM#24

This is really what you need to consider:

 

Do you want it to be more free from and free style, lacking classes though lacking lots of mechanics and function, of which if they are in place certain ones will stand superior to others in which its essencially a class anyways

 

or... would you rather a class system, allowing a character to be made in a much more advance way having far more options and a unique flavor in which to strengthen the character and really make characters be different from one another? Balance would be an issue but at the same time classes would actually feel different and it wouldn't be the 'same old same old' for every single character.

 

Personally, i've felt classes have been vastly stronger then classless systems. Given a good system you can make a class system that does give plenty of options to give a unique character, games like DnD or Pathfinder do this a lot in providing a class template but giving choices which can make a one character of a class very different from another through archtypes and choices, added with the ability mix and max classes in interesting ways. 

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1116

7/16/13 4:59:38 AM#25

I consider straight-jacketed classes and roles to be a developer aid, kind of boring personally,  but certainly some like that sort of thing.   Coming out of Hero systems rules as I do,  you could build whatever you wanted.  I prefer that  sort of approach myself.   You are still going to have certain things that are going to be important in any game that features strong combat focus.  Close in combat.  Ranged combat.  Crowd Control.  Supply/buffing.  Debuffing.    The more versatile the system, the more it allows you to choose how you mix and match.    Even if the game ends up with certain agreed choices that are best for the one specific role,  you can actually decide how you want approach it.   

 

I almost always vote in favor of more options, unless there's a dang good reason not to have it....

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Masterfuzzfuzz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/13
Posts: 176

7/16/13 5:03:44 AM#26
Originally posted by Arglebargle

I consider straight-jacketed classes and roles to be a developer aid, kind of boring personally,  but certainly some like that sort of thing.   Coming out of Hero systems rules as I do,  you could build whatever you wanted.  I prefer that  sort of approach myself.   You are still going to have certain things that are going to be important in any game that features strong combat focus.  Close in combat.  Ranged combat.  Crowd Control.  Supply/buffing.  Debuffing.    The more versatile the system, the more it allows you to choose how you mix and match.    Even if the game ends up with certain agreed choices that are best for the one specific role,  you can actually decide how you want approach it.   

 

I almost always vote in favor of more options, unless there's a dang good reason not to have it....

It's hard to fit them into the EQ lore I think. Then again, it is a parallel world so...

  thenetavenge

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/06
Posts: 29

7/16/13 5:14:42 AM#27

Are classes a sandbox feature... Maybe.

 

If you look at previous sandbox style games, several had classes.  The 'open/sandbox' nature was preserved as the character was not locked to any of these classes and they could be mixed to create hybrid classes.

 

SWG is a good example, it technically had classes; however, users were not locked into the classes, and could pick a mix of trees from several of the classes.  So you could have a Master Swordsman with some points in Fencer, some in Medic, some in artisan, etc.

 

There are games with no defined class trees, and are just a mix of skills.  However I have seen class-less games that are far from offering a sandbox experience as the skill choices are too limited or require a linear choice in the skill systems.

 

Based on SWG, as long as you aren't locked to a 'class' for your character, then they can work in a sandbox rather well.

 

My two cents.

  Loktofeit

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Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

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7/16/13 5:24:37 AM#28
Originally posted by azzamasin

When I think of sandbox I think of total player freedom and choice.  With the recent speculation that EQN will feature classes does this really fit into a Sandbox mentality?

It depends on how they are used.

 

I think you'll all find the whole sandbox/themepark thing less confusing if you start thinking of it in terms of use and purpose instead of concrete features.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  apocoluster

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1302

\m/,

7/16/13 5:31:39 AM#29

When I think sand box.  I think  cat pee and GIJoe's buried forever 

 

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1571

7/16/13 5:40:48 AM#30
Originally posted by azzamasin

When I think of sandbox I think of total player freedom and choice.  With the recent speculation that EQN will feature classes does this really fit into a Sandbox mentality?

 

I am hoping that classes are nothing but a starting point and that there is "a lot" of freedom within the class structure and that it becomes possible that no 2 classes will be the same.

I'm going to say this for the 100th time, stop hanging on top Smeds "sandbox" comment, i will bet you any money that EQN is no more sandbox than ArcheAge or Age Of Wushu, these games are very feature rich sandpark hybrid game.

Smed has set himself flak just by making silly claims that EQN will be the largest sandbox ever.

Is he saying that EQN is going to be like WurmOnline which is a full blown sandbox mmo with complete Terraforming.

And Terraforming is not the only feature that WurmOnline has http://wurmonline.com/about-the-game/

Not just house building but shaping the whole entire world, paths, trees, floral, buildings.

I don't think so, so from that we know that Smed idea of a sandbox is not really a true sandbox mmo.

Away from WurmOnline i'm pretty sure ATITD has some sort of class system, i might be wrong though.

http://www.atitd.com/

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  Lanfea

Elite Member

Joined: 10/19/04
Posts: 214

7/16/13 5:48:03 AM#31
Originally posted by SavageHorizon

I'm going to say this for the 100th time, stop hanging on top Smeds "sandbox" comment, i will bet you any money that EQN is no more sandbox than ArcheAge or Age Of Wushu, these games are very feature rich sandpark hybrid game. Smed has set himself flak just by making silly claims that EQN will be the largest sandbox ever.

 

 

i totally agree. every information you can gather about eqnext given by officials from SOE makes me belive that 'sandbox is the new f2p' - just another stupid marketing bullshit term.

  User Deleted
7/16/13 5:52:27 AM#32
Originally posted by Lanfea
Originally posted by SavageHorizon

I'm going to say this for the 100th time, stop hanging on top Smeds "sandbox" comment, i will bet you any money that EQN is no more sandbox than ArcheAge or Age Of Wushu, these games are very feature rich sandpark hybrid game. Smed has set himself flak just by making silly claims that EQN will be the largest sandbox ever.

 

 

i totally agree. every information you can gather about eqnext given by officials from SOE makes me belive that 'sandbox is the new f2p' - just another stupid marketing bullshit term.

Well you never know... maybe the sandbox is F2P but the tools are sub only XD (you get everything in the game, every class, every item, every race, deity, whatnot but not the ability to do things which would shape the world differently in a direct fashion, IE: nation building, limited to renter homes, etc).

  Lanfea

Elite Member

Joined: 10/19/04
Posts: 214

7/16/13 5:56:07 AM#33
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Lanfea
Originally posted by SavageHorizon

I'm going to say this for the 100th time, stop hanging on top Smeds "sandbox" comment, i will bet you any money that EQN is no more sandbox than ArcheAge or Age Of Wushu, these games are very feature rich sandpark hybrid game. Smed has set himself flak just by making silly claims that EQN will be the largest sandbox ever.

 

 

i totally agree. every information you can gather about eqnext given by officials from SOE makes me belive that 'sandbox is the new f2p' - just another stupid marketing bullshit term.

Well you never know... maybe the sandbox is F2P but the tools are sub only XD (you get everything in the game, every class, every item, every race, deity, whatnot but not the ability to do things which would shape the world differently in a direct fashion, IE: nation building, limited to renter homes, etc).

well, maybe my bad english, but you got me wrong. i meant that the term 'sanbox' is nowadays used like the term 'f2p'. a marketing phrase to sell and hype stuff.

  User Deleted
7/16/13 6:07:25 AM#34
Originally posted by Lanfea
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Lanfea
Originally posted by SavageHorizon

I'm going to say this for the 100th time, stop hanging on top Smeds "sandbox" comment, i will bet you any money that EQN is no more sandbox than ArcheAge or Age Of Wushu, these games are very feature rich sandpark hybrid game. Smed has set himself flak just by making silly claims that EQN will be the largest sandbox ever.

 

 

i totally agree. every information you can gather about eqnext given by officials from SOE makes me belive that 'sandbox is the new f2p' - just another stupid marketing bullshit term.

Well you never know... maybe the sandbox is F2P but the tools are sub only XD (you get everything in the game, every class, every item, every race, deity, whatnot but not the ability to do things which would shape the world differently in a direct fashion, IE: nation building, limited to renter homes, etc).

well, maybe my bad english, but you got me wrong. i meant that the term 'sanbox' is nowadays used like the term 'f2p'. a marketing phrase to sell and hype stuff.

I know but I am just saying one way it could possibly work :P

  dlld

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/31/08
Posts: 517

7/16/13 6:13:23 AM#35
If we are talking your standard wow type select a class at character creation and have that choice be locked forever and completely define your character before you even entered the world, then no I wouldn't say that's very sandboxy.
  TheHavok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/04
Posts: 2430

"Free crack and everybody gets laid."

7/16/13 6:15:47 AM#36

Sandbox is a made up term anyways.  People can't even agree on what makes a sandbox compared to a non-sandbox.

Who says that a sandbox game can't have classes?

  Grailer

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/06
Posts: 840

7/16/13 6:19:06 AM#37
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by azzamasin

When I think of sandbox I think of total player freedom and choice.  With the recent speculation that EQN will feature classes does this really fit into a Sandbox mentality?

 

I am hoping that classes are nothing but a starting point and that there is "a lot" of freedom within the class structure and that it becomes possible that no 2 classes will be the same.

Star Wars Galaxies had classes

SWG was a sandpark

 

It had landmarks that were from the movies which had quests etc .  But also had a lot of sandbox type of things going on.

 

  User Deleted
7/16/13 6:20:49 AM#38

The question posed by the OP is a perfect example of the problem developers have and will always have when attempting to make a Sandbox game - nobody can agree on what a sandbox game actually is. People understand the 'principle' of what a sandbox is, but nobody can agree on how to implement those principles in the game.

As far as the question of the OP, I honestly don't see the problem with classes if players can switch between them. Heck, I don't see the problem with choosing one at character creation, but I'm pretty sure I heard that they liked the idea of being able to change classes on the same character (thinking it was the Future of MMO panel hosted by MMORPG.com).

  Xerathule

Novice Member

Joined: 9/29/09
Posts: 119

7/16/13 6:22:53 AM#39
Originally posted by azzamasin

When I think of sandbox I think of total player freedom and choice.  With the recent speculation that EQN will feature classes does this really fit into a Sandbox mentality?

 

I am hoping that classes are nothing but a starting point and that there is "a lot" of freedom within the class structure and that it becomes possible that no 2 classes will be the same.

Skyrim is a good example for freedom to be what you want and I find it better to have classes because it is traditional for EQ and I like knowing that somebody is a healer instead of a guy who wants to DPS most of the time instead of heal!  I have to point out that if anybody has made a Healer class fun, it is Blizzard regardless if anybody wants to admit that.  They took that to a new level so now we have to see if EQ can take that  to the next level or just build on that and bring us EQ Next with all of the great innovative ideas Blizzard has brought and leave out the recent bad ones!

 

Oh wait I forgot, if a game was to use some of the great innovative ideas of Blizzard then it would be a WoW-Clone!!!!!  So I guess we should just through out all of the great ideas Blizzard had or kill off the MMO industry because nobody can use those ideas right? 

 

  immodium

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1325

7/16/13 6:29:30 AM#40

Like many have stated, no one is going to agree with what a sandbox is.

 

If I cant dig for stone/chop trees down(manipulating sand) and create a stone fort/wooden house(make a sand castle), It's not a sandbox IMO. Sandbox is the freedom to terraform the world, not the freedom of an open ended skill system.

Look at Minecraft, Everyone is equal in that game. What makes players different is not classes, it's what they have crafted for themselves. Classes are an RPG element, not a sandbox one. That's not to say you can't have classes in a sandbox game.

 

EDIT: I'd also like to add that sandbox elements, IMO have little to do with combat. It's more about crafting, and crafting classes. The only combat sandbox elements is the destruction of the games world, be it through battle or trolling. :)

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