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Warhammer 40.000: Eternal Crusade

Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade 

General Discussion  » PVP only games are guaranteed to fail

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60 posts found
  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2319

7/15/13 6:08:22 AM#41
Originally posted by ste2000
Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Originally posted by ste2000

I agree with the OP.

I beleve PvP is popular in a Multiplayer environment, that's its natural habitat.

I am not saying that people hate playing PvP in MMORPGs, that's not true, but I believe most of us can live without as long as there is an engaging PVE content.

Personally I don't mind playing a game with PvP after all I played Darkfall for 2 years, but I prefer PvE content in MMOs.

I miss Everquest, it didn't have any PvP and it did quite well.................

Speak for your self, just because some players are scared of ;losing pixels and get attached to them doesn't  mean we all do, PVE, AI , is lame  in 99% of most games.. No challenge...

You missed the part where I said I played Darkfall for 2 years?

Should read all the post not only the first sentence maybe.

 

PvP has more sense in Multiplayer games where characters are pretty much balanced, so only the player skill make a difference.

In MMOs character are hardly balanced for a couple of reasons

1) The different classes are often unbalanced with some classes that have huge advantages on others.

2) The leveling system gives advantage to people who have more time to play and have an higher level character, which obviously gives an unfair advantage on players who have a lower level character.

 

So it is not about fear of losing stuff, but more a lack of balance which in MMOs doesn't give the chance of a "fair" fight.

That's why I think that PvP is more suited for Multiplayer gaming (Like Battlefield and COD)

Different classes can never be balanced what they can be is equally powerful, fairness is never an issue especially in PVP games (if you think multiplayer games are balanced you need to start playing more games, especially the ones considered E-sports).

 

Unless Behaviour's plans change leveling in a game such as Eternal Crusade will be horizontal with different classes having different power levels which you can then choose to specialize (for example an ork shoota has ass all accuracy at range but at closer ranges puts out enough ammunition that he could actually fuck with a power suited opponent quite well and a ork slugga sacrifices almost all ranged capabilities for deadly close combat abilities, including the ability to cleave into power armor quite readily with a choppa). This specialization will in turn mean that even if say a nob is more powerful than a boyz if a close range specialized boyz gets a drop on a range specialized nob he could inflict serious damage or even kill the nob. This in effect means that a lower rung class can take on a higher class if used right. This is a skill based game where application of power and finesse trumps the brute minded power of vertical progression systems.

  elvenwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 130

7/15/13 6:29:07 AM#42

I am mainly a PvE player, in fact I am waiting FFXIV ARR , but I honestly don't see why a PvP based game should fail. 

Seeing I don't like PvP in MMO I don't go into it, quite simple, but I like to dip my nose in Planestside 2, or World of Tanks, War Thunder.

And this game seem quite an hit to me if they can make it well. I kinda imagine it as a planteside like with at a warhammer 40k enviroment... 

Also I cannot imagine a warhammer 40k game without PvP... the entire universe is around the war among the races... there isn't much else to do in that world... basically a giant Battle Royale on an universal scale.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5120/7210363296_8357bee9de.jpg

  Gorwe

Elite Member

Joined: 9/16/11
Posts: 1416

7/15/13 10:08:40 AM#43
As I said, 40k without WAR is meaningless. Other stuff that could take place in 40k are ME type games and various conspiracies. But that's as far as that one goes. Now if war should be PvP represented...is in the eyes of beholder.

For more of RP/typical world feeling, I'd strongly advise you to go to Fantasy. That one does not have to be about war. I can say that because I know Fantasy inside out so...yeah.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1480

7/15/13 10:10:59 AM#44
Some games need to be pvp. WH40K is one of them. In other threads about EQN with polls about PvE vs PvP, I voted for PvE over PvP every time. But I want this game to be pvp and not pve.
  ThomasN7

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6602

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

7/15/13 10:18:03 AM#45
The original Guild Wars was primarily marketed for the pvp crowd and look what happened there.
  Ramanadjinn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1125

7/15/13 10:22:27 AM#46
Originally posted by ThomasN7
The original Guild Wars was primarily marketed for the pvp crowd and look what happened there.

 

That it was "marketed for the pvp crowd" is confounded with many other factors such that "what happened" cannot be directly tied to any individual factor.  

On a personal note - I logged in, pressed the spacebar, googled "how to jump in guild wars" and found there was no such thing in the game, and then uninstalled.  That is "what happened" on my first adventure in Guild Wars.  Kind of irrelevant maybe but I like sharing stories.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

7/15/13 10:25:16 AM#47
Originally posted by zonjimasen

I was taking you seriously right until this part. I smell trollbait.

You bothered to read it?

"Look at me" font usage generally results in a reply of "No."

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Lesrach

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/05
Posts: 115

7/15/13 10:29:42 AM#48
I like pvp.
  xalvi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 343

7/16/13 11:40:52 AM#49
Originally posted by spoonone
Originally posted by xalvi

LOL sad man.

Warhammer did not die because is was a pvp oriented game, get your facts straight plz. Can someone remind the OP how many servers warhammer had when it first launched. What killed warhammer were many reasons, including WoW, but saying it died because it was pvp oriented is simply wrong and troll-like behavior. QQ

Warhammer Online is not the same game as Warhammer 40k.

 

Never said it was. The OP said look at games such as Warhammer online and see how it "failed because it was only pvp". 

 

I said he is simply wrong.

  Roguewiz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/01/02
Posts: 454

When a Kender says "oops!"; its already too late.

7/16/13 12:10:02 PM#50

Every time I see a thread about how PVP games fail, I facepalm.  My forehead can't take it anymore.

Failed promises killed Warhammer, not PVP, not their horrible PVE.  Heck, even their attempt to mimic WOW and DAOC at the same time didn't kill them.  Certain classes weren't in, cities weren't in, and races weren't in.  PVP imbalance, not enough PVP scenarios.  THAT'S what killed the game for a lot of people.

There are many games with a heavy focus on PVP that are still alive.

DAOC still kicking

Planetside 2 has a HUGE following

League of Legends is a worldwide monster

Lineage II is still thriving (even though I personally hated the game)

I be Raq, destroyer of game balance!
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: League of Legends, Dark Souls 2, Elder Scrolls Online
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next (And Landmark)
Trying to beat Dark Souls without using magic is like having a naked hot blond give you a root canal every day; painful and enjoyable at the same time.

  Varthander

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/07
Posts: 433

Forum ranks are useless.

7/16/13 12:17:02 PM#51
Originally posted by Teh_Axi

WAR died because of all the PvEer garbage they put into the game and its RvR.

PvP is about winning and losing, not collecting points and patting each other on the back.

WAR died because everytime the mythic team tried to fix a class, another one resulted to be OP, in result a large % of people just switched sides to be on the winner team, in the end there was too many Order veterans to even win a scenario with the best of Destruction. So it was the fault of the dev team and the community.

  User Deleted
7/16/13 12:42:06 PM#52
Originally posted by Gorwe
As I said, 40k without WAR is meaningless. Other stuff that could take place in 40k are ME type games and various conspiracies. But that's as far as that one goes. Now if war should be PvP represented...is in the eyes of beholder.

For more of RP/typical world feeling, I'd strongly advise you to go to Fantasy. That one does not have to be about war. I can say that because I know Fantasy inside out so...yeah.

 

Fantasy should be all about warfare and it is when it comes to the tabletop. The feelings gets lost in the other outlets though, namely the RPGs (online and pen/paper). Still wish there was a FF aspect in WAR so I could grief RPers that played Druchii wrong. Get the fuckin' Drizzt knockoffs out of my Naggaroth!  I was glad in many ways that they shut down the RP servers early in that game.

 

I'll be waiting for my Dark Eldar in Eternal Crusade. Would love to play a Haemonculi and create all kinds of twisted creations.

 

Gorwe: "We own this night, just as we own the fear that runs in your veins. You may think your numbers protect you, but we shall feast on your souls before dawn."

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1479

7/16/13 12:45:54 PM#53
Originally posted by Romanjisan

Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

I give you 2/10 for typing this troll.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  quotheraving

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/10
Posts: 271

7/16/13 3:10:20 PM#54
Originally posted by Muke
Originally posted by Romanjisan

Trolololol

I give you 2/10 for typing this troll.

And besides Eternal Crusade will have PVE elements, so it's not just a sad attempt at trolling, it's a completely irrelevant one at that.

  Incomparable

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 674

7/18/13 2:57:44 AM#55

Focusing on pvp is better in my opinion.

 

Firstly because at end game I want to pvp not raid. So while raiding might be more successful in WoW as a statistics it does not mean it translates well for no name wow-clones. They will fail trying to copy WoW as no name IPs. Case in point, is swtor, which had a huge budget, but is a renowned IP and is doing fairly well with its cash store and f2p.

 

So can pvp be successful? It depends on the devs plans. For example MOBAs are successful. They hold tournaments and is an esport. Mmos are a different beast, with lacking variety of heroes and fixed characters in different pvp brackets compared to MOBAs all starting from the same point in time to progress from lvl 1 to lvl 25 (dota). If they make mmo combat into an e-sport it will be moderately successful, potentially. It needs much more than a MOBA. 

 

It will need territories to fight over. Different mechanics that act as mini games.

 

And really a focus on pvp for an mmo can't leave out Pve. There is going to be some method of progressing and rewarding players to have unique armour and weapons.

 

A real breathing world with roaming npc's. Even smart AI would be very important since questing and exp is less important but the journey is more important, since pvp begins early then it has to be interesting throughout. Therefore dynamic events need to be in a pvp world. However, all quests, or most of them, are pvp related.  Npc's alignment and contributing to effects in the world to shape pvp events.

 

For pvp focus to be fun, the pvp has to be short term reward and long term reward. Short term reward is winning duels, bounties etc. The long term is in a world that is persistent with all aspects geared towards pvp to include housing, castles and territory, shaping npc's locations, changing borders, and even shaping the politics of the game.

 

If they make these features fun and accessible, and not too time consuming to reach end game and long term rewards, then I think this would be successful.

 

And trying to incorporate a system that becomes a legacy to reward alting. Since in mmos, the downtime to lvl one character is a cost to one style of combat and end game of 100s of hours. So the the end game rewards are available to alts like player housing and wealth. This makes the game more accessible and rewarding.

 

“Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  patrickbalthazar

Novice Member

Joined: 12/11/12
Posts: 133

7/18/13 10:15:08 AM#56

Well even if this thread is very weird in the first place - mostly because actually any MMO at this time is a bet on success - I want to also consider a few thoughts here:

I have been a pvp player for a long time, coming from shooters and hardcore pvp MMOs like Lineage2 I think there is more to pvp than just a category of players and situations on how to make it right.

I am by far not a good game designer - more into the technical stuff anyway - but I had my experiences, talks and readings about this topic. It came up too often in the past and it has been too often in the past where stuff has just not been done the right way because as a developer you always want to make it right for everyone - to get a bigger audience, to make more people happy etc.

I think the most important part of pvp is the gameplay itself to be fun. I mean old shooters like Counter Strike, there is not much gameplay or possibilities - players do not have levels, xp, unique gear etc... there is no pve aspect of it - and still it got a lot of people to play it. Now times have changed and audiences expect more etc...but in the end I think it will boil down to the same thing. Make it fun and players will like it. Everything else is possibly just cosmetics to get a bigger audience.

Our plan is to do exactly this - make it fun - with you guys together, we will not just do what we think is right, we will include as many players as we can at different stages and adopt the gameplay so that we can all have fun - within limits ofc, I do not believe it's possible to attract every player out there in this world  - but knowing that, it makes it easier to focus on those players who like the game :)

Patrick Balthazar
Tech Lead - Behaviour Online
Lead Programmer - Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade
www.EternalCrusade.com - #eternalcrusade - @lordpada

  skeptical

Novice Member

Joined: 10/10/07
Posts: 364

7/20/13 2:00:00 AM#57
I tend to agree with the OP in general. Leave the pvp to the FPS games. MMO's always fail so bad at pvp. Class balance is always terrible. Players quickly find the lowest common denominator or "i win" combo of classes, skills, gear. People always flock to the easy win and run from any fight where they have a high risk of losing. WAR was terrible with that, people changing servers to join the winning team. GW2 same deal; people only want to fight for the winning team. I like FPS type pvp, but if I play an MMO I look at the PVE content more and pvp is like a second or third priority if even that. Sure there is always that very vocal hardcore pvp crowd, but generally they make up a very small part of most MMO games population. 
  mintyc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/07
Posts: 38

7/20/13 5:56:29 AM#58

as a planetside player (1 and 2) i can tell you that a pvp focused game is fun when you are loseing, so long as you get a good fight. defending a doomed base becomes less a case of a chrushing defeat and more desperate battle to hold out as long as you can so that the rest of your army or another faction can change the tide somweare else. my best memorys in planetside come not from curbstomping to victory but come from the hard fought victorys and the narrowest of defeats.

 

i agree that warhammer online dident realy work in the pvp department but then again it didtent realy work in the pve department ether. warhammer online is a split focus, hotkey mmo that lacks the depth and balance that it needs to pull off compelling pvp. for me the two best things about war are its tome of knowlage and the way it implemented public quests, not its combat system. war would have been a very diferent game with good quality action combat system with free aiming, and pobably lot better to.

 

eternal crusade is looking like it is trying to be an asymmetrical third person mmo shooter/brawler focued on territory control with 4 factions and a 5th AI faction all done in the vain of a mix between planetside and space marine. thats a game i want to play.

 

however due to its asymmetrical nature balance is going to be this games largest chalange. while they will have to make sure that no class is badly underpowered in its chosen area of speciality. the main area of focus will have to be on the faction level looking at the armys as a whole. some classes are just going to be better at what they do than other classes of a simalar speciality, thers no escaping it unless you make all the clases the same and i dont want that.

 

 

  OniFeeZ

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/13
Posts: 48

7/20/13 10:20:03 PM#59
Originally posted by skeptical
I tend to agree with the OP in general. Leave the pvp to the FPS games. MMO's always fail so bad at pvp. Class balance is always terrible. Players quickly find the lowest common denominator or "i win" combo of classes, skills, gear. People always flock to the easy win and run from any fight where they have a high risk of losing. WAR was terrible with that, people changing servers to join the winning team. GW2 same deal; people only want to fight for the winning team. I like FPS type pvp, but if I play an MMO I look at the PVE content more and pvp is like a second or third priority if even that. Sure there is always that very vocal hardcore pvp crowd, but generally they make up a very small part of most MMO games population. 

Well, there's your first problem, the designers have come into it acknowledging that something like an Ork will not be able to singularly match a Space Marine in combat. It's against the fluff, so it's not going to happen in game. I personally welcome this an incredible degree, but I understand that mileage my vary (if a game dev decides to come into the game as a Hive Tyrant, a single space marine should stand against it in combat either, there's always a bigger fish out there).

Warfare is a constant thing in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. To say that the game should not have pvp is basically saying: 'drop the 40k license' which, well isn't going to happen.

I actually think that an MMO that acknowledges that class balance isn't going to be addressed in the manner that we've come to expect is actually a breath of fresh air that potentially re-sculpts a lot of people's notions of pvp in general. It's up to the game devs to demonstrate how successful (aka; fun) this will be. Whether it comes as some sort of group buff for Orks that makes them more effective the more of them there are and/or whether it rewards Orks who participate as a group to kill something that it awards each and every participant within 'range' with the kill as opposed to something like an 'assist'.

Not many people enjoy losing that's true, it's up to the game devs again to acknowledge that 'death' isn't a sin as well is one of those problems that needs to be surmounted by all MMO developers, but I don't think it's as much as a problem as you are suggesting.

  SirBalin

Warmonger

Joined: 11/22/06
Posts: 939

7/22/13 9:54:01 PM#60
Originally posted by Romanjisan

Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

So cute when care bears qq...

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