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Warhammer 40.000: Eternal Crusade

Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade 

General Discussion  » PVP only games are guaranteed to fail

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60 posts found
  StMichael

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/10
Posts: 188

God said "Vengeance is mine." Don't think to bear his burden lightly.

7/15/13 12:40:43 AM#21

There is an art in every form of PvP that can determine the success or failure of a game, and that is the art of making losing fun. In PvE this is largely unnecessary as you as a player can try again with new strategies against a constant enemy, or maybe go gear up and make the fight that much easier. In PvP however, it's entirely possible to concentrate the fun had by everyone in the gameplay rather than the end result.

A comparative example: World of Warcraft vs Team Fortress 2. In World of Warcraft, PvP battles can be determined entirely by gear, class, or team composition. If an undergeared player, no matter how skilled, went up against a better geared player, even if he had a situational and/or class advantage, he would be murdered with little chance to do anything meaningful. No fun is had by the loser, and little is likely had by the winner. All enjoyment is derived from the outcome. Even if the players are of equal gear and skill, things like class balance and team composition can sap enjoyment from an otherwise good fight that you end up losing.

Contrast that with Team Fortress 2. In the moment to moment gameplay, every kill is a small victory. In the end, one side ultimately wins, but players have a great deal of freedom to use their skill to raise their score, even if they lose. It doesn't always end that way, but the potential is still there.

Besides, this is Warhammer, did you really think we were going to be farming fallen Primarchs and making golden throne runs?

  OniFeeZ

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/13
Posts: 48

7/15/13 3:18:19 AM#22

It's funny you mention about player skill vs gear for wow. First of all, I agree, but I remember once I came back to the game after Wrath hit so many moons ago, and not really knowing what to do, I played my warrior that I had since pretty much release. I went into Alterac valley and consistently beat a better equipped player 4 times in their base when I was guarding a flag to burn down the Watch tower in a one on one.

Why did I beat him? Because I was more skilled. I knew he would beat the crap out of me in a straight DPS race no matter what due to the differences in gear, but I also knew that as a warrior I probably had the more experience, having played the character since release. I waited until I was in execute range and then disarmed my opponent, allowing me to kill  him 4 times before he could get help and beat me. It was my most memorable kill and your story (while true generally speaking) made me wax nostalgic.

From what I remember of WAR, gear isn't as important (albeit important), and in SWTOR there's a happy medium as well in battle grounds now due bolstered expertise type stat (I can't remember what it's called, I'm a PvE'er!)

 

It's important to remember though that there will be PvE content in this game, how this'll work in end-game will be interesting.

  klagmire

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/26/13
Posts: 49

7/15/13 3:24:19 AM#23

Your soo wrong, you dont even know your wrong. PVP games are the most popular games out there. Be it on PS3, xbox, the COD series BF3. These are the target markets they want, because they are HUGE.

Thats why planetside 2 is so successfull, I know it will be upsetting for some people, but this is why we have been seeing such turmoil in the MMO markets and PVP sandboxes are making a comeback.

I play both console and computer, so dont say the genres are unrelated. The MMO on computer want to steel away those BF3 and COD console players in one big sandbox game.Like SOE did with PS2.

Played:SWG(pre NGE/CU sucked)Yep its true, anyone who quit SWG because of the NGE/CU missed out on a much better combat system. DCUO, Fallen Earth, STO, The Secret World. Battlefield series. Planetside 2.

  Smoey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/05
Posts: 551

7/15/13 3:26:59 AM#24
Planetside 2 seems to be doing well...

(\ /) ?
( . .)
c('')('')

  spoonone

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/13/06
Posts: 38

7/15/13 3:28:47 AM#25
Originally posted by xalvi

LOL sad man.

Warhammer did not die because is was a pvp oriented game, get your facts straight plz. Can someone remind the OP how many servers warhammer had when it first launched. What killed warhammer were many reasons, including WoW, but saying it died because it was pvp oriented is simply wrong and troll-like behavior. QQ

Warhammer Online is not the same game as Warhammer 40k.

  User Deleted
7/15/13 3:41:01 AM#26

If this game is anything like the Warhammer 40.000 universe then all the battles where the majority are on the losing side will have earned the bloody loss... Christ not even space marine deathwatch specialists can drop into a ork base and reasonably expect to slaughter everything, they might get allot of people granted but once the nobs and mechanized units mobilize they're fuuuuuuucked and by the end of the battle the resources invested to resources lost will most likely favor the orks as well.

 

Also the OP is blatantly wrong when he says the game will be PVP only... the Tyranids have been specifically withheld as a playable race to supply PVE content for players who want a break from frontline action and indeed repelling tyranid incursions will be as critical as any player faction incursion, possibly even more so because once a tyranid bioball gets going... it's not gonna end well for anyone be they PVPer or PVEer.

  Fdzzaigl

Elite Member

Joined: 8/22/09
Posts: 2093

7/15/13 3:42:39 AM#27

What about planetside 2 and the original planetside then, even though there was critique on the gameplay the second one is still going strong. Plus a whole other number of MOBA games that you didn't mention, where the little PvE can only be called to be a function of PvP, not that I'm saying MOBAs are MMOs.

It isn't logical to say that PvP MMOs are doomed to fail honestly. PvP multiplayer matches are pretty much the most common thing played in games overall, just look at the entire FPS world. Why would people suddenly get turned off if it happens to take place in an MMO environment?

PvP MMOs just need to conform to a few rules like an equal playing field, reliable ways to get into the action and delicate balancing that are hard to adhere to. Many games out there just fail to get that right.

Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  User Deleted
7/15/13 4:31:06 AM#28
Originally posted by Romanjisan

Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

 

"You think to challenge me, pitiful human? I, the bane of empires. the father of pain? Let me educate you; I need a new pet..."

  User Deleted
7/15/13 4:34:56 AM#29
Originally posted by TheMaahes
Originally posted by Romanjisan

Here's another company that will make yet another failed MMO because they wanted to make it a PVP-oriented game.  Warhammer Online did the same thing and we all know what happened there. It's astounding that the developers out there don't get it yet.  PVP is not popular.  I know the forum trolls here will flame me and shout me down, but the numbers don't lie.  The only MMO's out there that are even remotely popular after WoW are all PVE-oriented games.  The only exception might be EVE, but that game can be played without engaging in PVP, and its success is due to it being a niche game.

When it comes to PVP, most people are not going to pay money into a  game in which they lose most of the time.  People like to win, and the only way that's going to happen in a game is if they have lots of PVE content.  In PVP-oriented games, there are few winners and many losers, and that's why they never really make much money.

Ergo, this is just another sad example of why Games-Workshop just still doesn't get it.  While tabletop games might be fun on a PVP basis, and even then most of their popularity is in the massive volume of their lore.  I read a lot of their stuff and it's very entertaining.  But the gaming side - very expensive, very intense, and unrelaxing entertainment.  While there are lots of hobbyists out there that enjoy it, it's still a niche hobby.

If any video game MMO really wants to break out and be successful, they need to be PVE-oriented.  Even League of Legends is PVE-oriented via their co-op play.  If they had PVP-only type scenarios, I guarantee you that their popularity would sink to spectacularly low levels at astounding speed.

 

"You think to challenge me, pitiful human? I, the bane of empires. the father of pain? Let me educate you; I need a new pet..."

"Step aside heretic, this one has already been placed under inquisitorial custody pending an arco-flagelation ceremony. If you still need a pet he will be suitably formed for such next you meet him."

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19097

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/15/13 4:36:00 AM#30
I think LOL and other games prove PVP is popular, but I also think it's fair to say a large portion of the audience does not enjoy being attacked and killed while unprepared and having no chance to win.

To succeed a title needs to provide some control in the environment and allow the player some control over the terms of engagement and loss that they will suffer.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Ramanadjinn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1311

7/15/13 4:47:02 AM#31

My explanation to OP would be something like, if for example you were on a bus where all the other passengers were licking the windows, this wouldn't necessarily imply that all buses without windows would fail.  Instead, you have to consider that maybe you're just on a bus full of window lickers.

I mean no disrespect, I am simply trying to use an analogy that seems relatable.

  tommygunzII

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 322

7/15/13 4:52:24 AM#32

People love PVP, just not the way MMO's do it.

Just look at every game out there from shooters to racing. People love playing against people, it's not as popular in MMO's simply because it's not that fun. Take BF3, if there was a choice to play PVP or PVE I would be willing to bet PVP wins 4:1. Saying people don't like PVP in MMO's is like saying people don't like PC's because of Windows 8.

 

  Riposte.This

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/12
Posts: 195

Killing dragons is my shit

7/15/13 4:55:43 AM#33
you need both.

Killing dragons is my shit

  jdlamson75

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/27/08
Posts: 904

There's some lovely filth down here.

7/15/13 4:56:57 AM#34
Fourth page, no reappearance of the OP.  Let's let it go.
  Xasapis

Tipster

Joined: 1/12/07
Posts: 5608

7/15/13 4:59:52 AM#35
I don't really understand how you can even make a warhammer game that is not PvP oriented.
  Teh_Axi

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

7/15/13 5:02:59 AM#36

WAR died because of all the PvEer garbage they put into the game and its RvR.

PvP is about winning and losing, not collecting points and patting each other on the back.

  User Deleted
7/15/13 5:15:10 AM#37
Originally posted by Teh_Axi

WAR died because of all the PvEer garbage they put into the game and its RvR.

PvP is about winning and losing, not collecting points and patting each other on the back.

Well in Warhammer 40.000 you could...with either chainfists or power gloves...

  ste2000

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4735

7/15/13 5:24:30 AM#38
Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Originally posted by ste2000

I agree with the OP.

I beleve PvP is popular in a Multiplayer environment, that's its natural habitat.

I am not saying that people hate playing PvP in MMORPGs, that's not true, but I believe most of us can live without as long as there is an engaging PVE content.

Personally I don't mind playing a game with PvP after all I played Darkfall for 2 years, but I prefer PvE content in MMOs.

I miss Everquest, it didn't have any PvP and it did quite well.................

Speak for your self, just because some players are scared of ;losing pixels and get attached to them doesn't  mean we all do, PVE, AI , is lame  in 99% of most games.. No challenge...

You missed the part where I said I played Darkfall for 2 years?

Should read all the post not only the first sentence maybe.

 

PvP has more sense in Multiplayer games where characters are pretty much balanced, so only the player skill make a difference.

In MMOs character are hardly balanced for a couple of reasons

1) The different classes are often unbalanced with some classes that have huge advantages on others.

2) The leveling system gives advantage to people who have more time to play and have an higher level character, which obviously gives an unfair advantage on players who have a lower level character.

 

So it is not about fear of losing stuff, but more a lack of balance which in MMOs doesn't give the chance of a "fair" fight.

That's why I think that PvP is more suited for Multiplayer gaming (Like Battlefield and COD)

  BizkitNL

Old School

Joined: 12/29/02
Posts: 2298

"Free to play, pay to win""

7/15/13 5:41:18 AM#39

"for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only PVP"

 

Edited for truthfullness.

 

Feel like trying Planetside 2? Get a headstart with the starter kit!

  Gorwe

Elite Member

Joined: 9/16/11
Posts: 1807

7/15/13 5:53:12 AM#40
I'll just say as much:

If we were talking of Warhammer Fantasy, I'd agree. It's thought of as a massive army fest only because games workshop has lost the direction. Hell I could describe star wars or LoTR as a sequence of massive battles. Even star trek lol. So that doesn't make a game an army fest. Fantasy could well be what LoTR should've been if Chris wasn't so god dam greedy. About that.

Now we aren't talking about Fantasy. We are talking about 40k instead. It's several multitudes darker and only about war. Face it for it is. In Fantasy, you can RP an Elven stableboy or a lumberjack from the old forest. Or a Knight of Brettonia. In 40k each and every RP revolves around battle and perfection of it. Be those Inquisitors, Aspect Warriors or whatever else.

Hell, the motto for 40k is, after all: "In Grim darkness of far future, there is only war."

(It's meant to be PvP)
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