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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » GW2 Ruined Combat for me

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173 posts found
  scritty

Novice Member

Joined: 1/26/12
Posts: 89

7/12/13 9:43:37 AM#101
Originally posted by Volkon

I'm a little puzzled by what you consider to be "cerebral" combat if GW2 doesn't qualify. GW2 combat is actually quite cerebral as well. You don't simply mash spells... you need to know the secondary effects (and sometimes tertiary as well) that each skill has. Some skills have an additional "when active" ability as well. The MMO I played prior to GW2 was WoW, and this blows WoW away as far as having to think while fighting. All that was was master the rotation then combat by muscle memory.

 

The original Guild Wars, another nicely cerebral game with a healthy dose of twitch thrown in as well (I mained as a mesmer). 

You've got me confused. Where do I mention WoW?

You seem to be arguing against a point I've not made. No where do I mention WoW. WoW combat is certainly not particularly cerebral - and I never said it was. I mentioned EvE and i'm not talking about just combat though. Trading, crafing, relationships, travel etc all require a little more thought.

My point is that I don't like or want to play "twitch" movement games. Mainly that's because I'm middle aged and would lose every time. But being middle aged in gaming thee days is hardly a small minority any more - Read on C&VG that the AVERAGE MMO player is 35 - so I'm guessing that at 45  there are still many a lot older than me - althoug many more a lot younger.

I used to love twitch gaming. My first game was Jetpack on the Speccy in 1982 - most of my gaming till about 10 years ago was twitch. Bought just about every FPS and 3rdPS and action adventure going. Just went off them as I got older. Not just because my skills decreased - though it would be churlish to pretend that didn't play a part - but mainly becasue they stopped satisfying me.

Spend my single player time playing Dwarf Fortress, Kenshi, Gnomoria, Galactic Civilizations, Distant Worlds, Battles From The Bulge, Crusader Kings 2, Aurora and games like that. Online I always return to EvE

My only point really is that I hope studios cater for those of us who do not like or want to play twitch games as well as - and along side - those many that do.

Nothing contentious there I think

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16710

7/12/13 9:46:42 AM#102
Originally posted by grenseal
Try Tera Online - it will ruin gw2 combat for u :)

It didn't for me, but TERAs combat is indeed pretty fun. I still think GW2s work better for me though.

The fact that you have to move while you fight instead of just standing still do add a new dimension to MMO combat. I lately just cant stand games where you just can stand still and rotate skills.

Then again, what type of combat someone likes is really a personal taste.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

7/12/13 9:48:42 AM#103
Originally posted by scritty
Originally posted by Volkon

I'm a little puzzled by what you consider to be "cerebral" combat if GW2 doesn't qualify. GW2 combat is actually quite cerebral as well. You don't simply mash spells... you need to know the secondary effects (and sometimes tertiary as well) that each skill has. Some skills have an additional "when active" ability as well. The MMO I played prior to GW2 was WoW, and this blows WoW away as far as having to think while fighting. All that was was master the rotation then combat by muscle memory.

 

The original Guild Wars, another nicely cerebral game with a healthy dose of twitch thrown in as well (I mained as a mesmer). 

You've got me confused. Where do I mention WoW?

You seem to be arguing against a point I've not made. No where do I mention WoW. WoW combat is certainly not particularly cerebral - and I never said it was. I mentioned EvE and i'm not talking about just combat though. Trading, crafing, relationships, travel etc all require a little more thought.

My point is that I don't like or want to play "twitch" movement games. Mainly that's because I'm middle aged and would lose every time. But being middle aged in gaming thee days is hardly a small minority any more - Read on C&VG that the AVERAGE MMO player is 35 - so I'm guessing that at 45  there are still many a lot older than me - althoug many more a lot younger.

I used to love twitch gaming. My first game was Jetpack on the Speccy in 1982 - most of my gaming till about 10 years ago was twitch. Bought just about every FPS and 3rdPS and action adventure going. Just went off them as I got older. Not just because my skills decreased - though it would be churlish to pretend that didn't play a part - but mainly becasue they stopped satisfying me.

Spend my single player time playing Dwarf Fortress, Kenshi, Gnomoria, Galactic Civilizations, Distant Worlds, Battles From The Bulge, Crusader Kings 2, Aurora and games like that. Online I always return to EvE

My only point really is that I hope studios cater for those of us who do not like or want to play twitch games as well as - and along side - those many that do.

Nothing contentious there I think

Eh, sorry... I didn't get any sleep last night for some odd reason (just couldn't fall asleep) so may not be fully coherent. I will add that I'm actually older than you are. A little. Not much. But I don't find GW2 combat to be twitchy at all personally. There's a responsiveness required to the situation at hand, sure, but it doesn't feel twitchy in the Defiance sense or the like (to me). 

 

I only used WoW as an example I'm familiar with, not implying anything beyond that. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  botrytis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2532

7/12/13 10:28:18 AM#104
Originally posted by Naqaj
Originally posted by Volkon 

I'm a little puzzled by what you consider to be "cerebral" combat if GW2 doesn't qualify. GW2 combat is actually quite cerebral as well. You don't simply mash spells... you need to know the secondary effects (and sometimes tertiary as well) that each skill has. Some skills have an additional "when active" ability as well. The MMO I played prior to GW2 was WoW, and this blows WoW away as far as having to think while fighting. All that was was master the rotation then combat by muscle memory.

 

The original Guild Wars, another nicely cerebral game with a healthy dose of twitch thrown in as well (I mained as a mesmer). 

The core problem of GW2 is that there isn't much content that requires you to know your combat abilities that well. If you do the open world stuff, and you can kill one mob after the other, just standing still and watching your auto-attack go off, why bother learning what your other skills do? People have given up on the combat long before reaching fractals or even explorable dungeons, and the boss mobs you encounter in the world are usually very poorly designed in terms making a cerebrally  demanding opponent.

TL;DR GW2's combat is fine. Shitty AI makes it boring.

HMM - you do need to know your abilities. I mean, playing a mesmer, you need to know whether a mob can be stunned or not (otherwise those are wasted skills).  In that case, why bother learning skills in Rift, WoW, etc where you have so many skills - just try them all!! Your explanations is too simplified and dismissive as to make you looks like just a hater.

I really don't know how to respond to the underlined other than to say, if people gave up on bosses, then why whenever there is a world boss up, that particular zone has an overflow associated with it. So, what you want is the trinity - where one person just heals all the time, one person just sits in front of the mob, and one person does 'pew, pew, pew'. There is no thought in that process either then.

I am sorry Naqaj, but your explanation is just plain bad and wrong (same with mine about the trinity - but was trying to get a point across). Instead of being condescending in your explanation, try to REALLY explain why GW2 combat is not cerebral. I mentioned above, playing a mesmer, you need to know which foe has which resistance. If you are against the Dredge, for example,  you have to know they can't be blinded or dazed (some not all for this condition). etc. That is cerebral. What you said was, just spam skills 'pew, pew, pew' and they are dead. It couldn't be further from the truth.

 

There is nothing wrong with the AI, it is more advanced than Rift, TSW, or others where the mobs just follows who aggroes them. You need to explain rather than just being dismissive.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Naqaj

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1681

7/12/13 11:41:19 AM#105
Originally posted by botrytis

So, what you want is the trinity -

Not even remotely, and I'm struggling to understand how you read that out of my post. Let my try that again.

I'm agreeing with Volkon, in that the combat in GW2 is designed so that it can actually be quite deep and require quite a bit of strategy and actual thinking. 

I also agree with you, you do need to understand the complexities of your classes abilities to play it to its fullest potential. 

What I'm criticizing is that the game too rarely provides opponents that actually require playing your class to it's fullest potential, or at least, do so in an interesting way that isn't just nibbling away at an enormous HP bar. Many of the people who dismiss it as being 'twitchy' or 'spammy' don't do that just out of spite, but because it actually was their personal experience of it. They never explored the depth of the combat system, because they weren't required to do so. Those are the people I mean when I say 'people have given up...'

Imagine if the population of mobs in the open world was cut in half, but each individual mob would be more reactive, with a larger arsenal of skills and less predictable in which it uses. That would be a much more interesting environment to actually apply your skills in playing your class, when even a regular 'trash'mob would actually be able to surprise you and require you to think on your feet. That is an environment that would make GW2s combat design really shine. 

 

  botrytis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2532

7/12/13 12:38:35 PM#106
Originally posted by Naqaj
Originally posted by botrytis

So, what you want is the trinity -

Not even remotely, and I'm struggling to understand how you read that out of my post. Let my try that again.

I'm agreeing with Volkon, in that the combat in GW2 is designed so that it can actually be quite deep and require quite a bit of strategy and actual thinking. 

I also agree with you, you do need to understand the complexities of your classes abilities to play it to its fullest potential. 

What I'm criticizing is that the game too rarely provides opponents that actually require playing your class to it's fullest potential, or at least, do so in an interesting way that isn't just nibbling away at an enormous HP bar. Many of the people who dismiss it as being 'twitchy' or 'spammy' don't do that just out of spite, but because it actually was their personal experience of it. They never explored the depth of the combat system, because they weren't required to do so. Those are the people I mean when I say 'people have given up...'

Imagine if the population of mobs in the open world was cut in half, but each individual mob would be more reactive, with a larger arsenal of skills and less predictable in which it uses. That would be a much more interesting environment to actually apply your skills in playing your class, when even a regular 'trash'mob would actually be able to surprise you and require you to think on your feet. That is an environment that would make GW2s combat design really shine. 

 

The game does but, they are different based on area - as it should be. Harathi Hinterlands is a hard area with 3-4 champion boss fights in a row (3 champions in one fight) - makes it fun.

 

As far as AI, it also depends on area and level - there are areas where the mobs are more reactive - again - as you go up in level they get more reactive and by area. So, it just depends and that is why this game is nice, it depends. It is not like Rift, where you know, as you go up all the mobs will react in a specific way. I mean I remember being in Orr and how the AI of the mobs there really depend on their profession and race. 

 

It does, the problem is people like sameness so they can pawn.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Eir_S

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4701

GW2 socialist.

7/12/13 10:16:50 PM#107
Originally posted by Naqaj
Originally posted by Volkon 

I'm a little puzzled by what you consider to be "cerebral" combat if GW2 doesn't qualify. GW2 combat is actually quite cerebral as well. You don't simply mash spells... you need to know the secondary effects (and sometimes tertiary as well) that each skill has. Some skills have an additional "when active" ability as well. The MMO I played prior to GW2 was WoW, and this blows WoW away as far as having to think while fighting. All that was was master the rotation then combat by muscle memory.

 

The original Guild Wars, another nicely cerebral game with a healthy dose of twitch thrown in as well (I mained as a mesmer). 

The core problem of GW2 is that there isn't much content that requires you to know your combat abilities that well. If you do the open world stuff, and you can kill one mob after the other, just standing still and watching your auto-attack go off, why bother learning what your other skills do? People have given up on the combat long before reaching fractals or even explorable dungeons, and the boss mobs you encounter in the world are usually very poorly designed in terms making a cerebrally  demanding opponent.

TL;DR GW2's combat is fine. Shitty AI makes it boring.

I kind of agree.  Adding tougher mechanics and some possibility of failure to a fight like Claw of Jormag, which already reminds me of a raid boss more than most of the dungeon bosses, would give people a greater feeling of accomplishment.  But in order to draw in a good number of players, they also can't make every mob on the map super difficult.  No MMO I can think of does that.

  observer

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/05
Posts: 2234

First came pride, then envy.

7/13/13 4:19:46 AM#108
Originally posted by Naqaj
Originally posted by botrytis

So, what you want is the trinity -

Not even remotely, and I'm struggling to understand how you read that out of my post. Let my try that again.

I'm agreeing with Volkon, in that the combat in GW2 is designed so that it can actually be quite deep and require quite a bit of strategy and actual thinking. 

I also agree with you, you do need to understand the complexities of your classes abilities to play it to its fullest potential. 

What I'm criticizing is that the game too rarely provides opponents that actually require playing your class to it's fullest potential, or at least, do so in an interesting way that isn't just nibbling away at an enormous HP bar. Many of the people who dismiss it as being 'twitchy' or 'spammy' don't do that just out of spite, but because it actually was their personal experience of it. They never explored the depth of the combat system, because they weren't required to do so. Those are the people I mean when I say 'people have given up...'

Imagine if the population of mobs in the open world was cut in half, but each individual mob would be more reactive, with a larger arsenal of skills and less predictable in which it uses. That would be a much more interesting environment to actually apply your skills in playing your class, when even a regular 'trash'mob would actually be able to surprise you and require you to think on your feet. That is an environment that would make GW2s combat design really shine. 

 

I agree with this.  The problem some people had with the combat, including myself, was that everything was zerged.  There wasn't really any process to learning the class skills, since everything was dying so fast.   So when people did dungeons, it was chaotic and people were dying over and over.  Combo fields were confusing too, and hard to learn.

There's still a lot i don't like about the combat, but i won't get into that again.

  DeaconX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/08/05
Posts: 3074

Stand up for what you believe; Even if you stand alone.
-==X==-
SHH, my COMMON SENSE is tingling!

7/13/13 4:24:22 AM#109
Originally posted by QSatu
Originally posted by grenseal
Try Tera Online - it will ruin gw2 combat for u :)

it depends. After gW2 I hated the constant rooting of my character to use a skill.

Ditto. Tera's combat is better than most, but was not more enjoyable for me than GW2's.

Combat in Elder Scrolls Online might be great... we shall see.


Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.

BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.

  craftseeker

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 628

7/13/13 4:32:29 AM#110

Originally posted by QSatu
Originally posted by grenseal
Try Tera Online - it will ruin gw2 combat for u :)

it depends. After gW2 I hated the constant rooting of my character to use a skill.

I can see this is going to be a problem for developers in the future. 
Those that hated GW2 and never got into the mindset of moving while casting (like me) are incompatable with those that see it as "constant rooting of my character to use a skill".  Hard to please both groups at the same time.
  Abrraham

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/07/13
Posts: 142

7/13/13 4:37:04 AM#111

I didn't like the combat of GW2 that much - too simplistic and bad enemy AI. I prefer Tera over GW2 because it is more challenging and boss events are much better. 

 

And in PvP it feels simplistic as well, especially in battlegrounds. I think I haven't played GW2 for more than 6 months, I even forgot what my skills do -  so just button smashing in the beginning and still I was able to win easily on 1 vs 1 and end up being first in battlegrounds for several times. This isn't possible in Tera.

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1779

7/14/13 3:58:07 AM#112
Originally posted by Tierless

I love how complex everyone keeps pretending their MMO was. I've played em all folks, and in the end it always comes down to 12345 and (for the complex onces) watching some cooldowns that most players gets mods fo so that becomes easy too.

I'm not saying they are all easy and I know some of them are hard, but the majority are not, and people acting like GW2 is SO SO much simpler than so many other MMOs is just funny to me.

Darkfall was simple in design but hard to master.

Khm... I believe you played them all ... but I wonder to which level ... max 10? :-) Poor you if you have used 12345 only to max level and being happy with that. Actually one can use usually only 1 spell. Poor him.

  sayuu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 111

7/14/13 4:02:04 AM#113

Final Fantasy 10 ruined it for me.

 

 

That turn-based combat where each turn had the potential to make or break the fight made every other game with their fancy "real time action combat" seem like a shallow experience. . .

  bubaluba

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/12
Posts: 464

7/14/13 4:12:13 AM#114
Well yes, GW2 have most boring spam combat of all times
  Masterfuzzfuzz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/13
Posts: 176

7/14/13 1:19:30 PM#115
Originally posted by Tierless

Every time I try to plan another MMO, if it doesn't have some sort of dodge or movement it just feels slow, old, and boring! Even FPS's feel less exciting. I didn't realize it was because of GW2 right away. Rather I kept thinking, why does this feel to dead, so slow? Then I instinctively tried to dodge once and it hit me, GW2!

GW2 has many things I would like to change, but I have grown very fond of that combat.

GW2 combat is pseudo dodging. You can only do it twice and if you don't have the dodge up, moving isn't going to save you from a projectile. Play TERA if you are looking for good combat. It has actual movement detection

  Fion

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 2356

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7/14/13 2:51:29 PM#116
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz

GW2 combat is pseudo dodging. You can only do it twice and if you don't have the dodge up, moving isn't going to save you from a projectile. Play TERA if you are looking for good combat. It has actual movement detection

Moving can and does avoid enemy attacks, but it varies greatly. If your in melee range you're gonna get hit. If your at range some attacks take longer than others. It's easy to avoid arrows for example but harder to avoid a lightning strike. IMHO Tera combat was rather boring, I hated being rooted and enemies were simplistic because they all telegraphed for a full second.

To each their own. :)

  Abrraham

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/07/13
Posts: 142

7/14/13 3:31:10 PM#117

Yes, that's true, defending in Tera is not only good on the surface, it feels more "real" also but I think that's because of how the monsters fight against you...

 

@Fion

I guess you haven't played Tera in elder game, against the most difficult bosses - because then you would understand what he means. Unfortunately you only see the full potential of this combat against the strongest enemies. Something I have never seen in GW2. There is a reason none who had defeated the strongest bosses in Tera, after weeks of practising, talks bad about the combat and the way it works against bosses. On the other side, you indeed hear many people saying that the combat of GW2 isn't satisfying in PvE - even after completing all hard bosses.

  Rinna

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/04
Posts: 387

7/14/13 11:55:24 PM#118
I actually enjoyed the tab targeting and gaming mouse button spamming and macros I had to create this last weekend in FFXIV.  I got sick of constantly targeting by moving my entire screen.  i don't mind either type of combat targeting but I definitely like the control that tab targeting allows me, and targetoftarget.  :)

No bitchers.

  shantideva

Novice Member

Joined: 6/15/09
Posts: 193

7/15/13 12:10:41 AM#119
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by krage
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by Tierless

Every time I try to plan another MMO, if it doesn't have some sort of dodge or movement it just feels slow, old, and boring! Even FPS's feel less exciting. I didn't realize it was because of GW2 right away. Rather I kept thinking, why does this feel to dead, so slow? Then I instinctively tried to dodge once and it hit me, GW2!

GW2 has many things I would like to change, but I have grown very fond of that combat.

I am on the other side of the fence. To me, all of the dodging looks absolutely ridiculous. I'm am very into the "look" of combat as much as the feel. Why I think Gw2 is a amazingly STUNNING game in terms of the visuals, all of the constant dodging kills me. I fought something a week or so ago when I finally logged back and and there were about 8 or 9 people there just rolling all over the fucking place. It really hurt the feel for me and the look of combat as it looked like a group of acrobats fighting at the circus...

I"m kind of with you. I don't mind some classes to be "dodgy rolley" but when everyone is rolling and flipping it just seems silly.

Same here, I once mentioned on the GW2 forums that they should take it a step further and give each class maybe even spec a different "dodge/block/evade" animation...perhaps even cash shop ones. The thieves have a special dodge roll animation, and dodge rolling seems suitable for the class, maybe even randomizing a few animations to make it look cinematic.

Examples:

Casters go into an ethreal like form based around their main spec magic (Mist form, Cloud of instects, etc.)

Sheild/Heavy Armor users can actively block with stamina, or "dodge" by parrying, or dodge by sidestepping (No rolling lol)

Medium Armor users/Adventurers can dodge roll, or do evades by sidestepping/leaping, or parries.

I also hate watching small humanoids shield/face tank monstrous creatures lol...I am a picky but its the little things that count.

 

I agree and I like those ideas.

Eh...Guys you're exactly describing Neverwinters dodge system..word for word...

"Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day!"

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

 
OP  7/15/13 12:13:09 AM#120

Not to be too hung up on the dodge, the amount of movement for so many moves made it feel exciting as well.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

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