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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Those who says e-sport is not a real sport, the US govt would disagree.

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91 posts found
  redcapp

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/11
Posts: 733

7/14/13 12:58:50 AM#61

Beaurocracy.. lol

 

Sorry, people who play LoL are not athletes.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

 
OP  7/14/13 1:42:46 AM#62
Originally posted by redcapp

Beaurocracy.. lol

 

Sorry, people who play LoL are not athletes.

People who bike in the park on Sunday, those who play an occasional tennis game, and those who play the occasional soft balls are not athletes either.

So?

 

  User Deleted
7/14/13 12:01:18 PM#63
Originally posted by Greez
Originally posted by Dihoru

In fact with E-sports you'd be hard pressed to find any game with RNG.

You obviously don't watch Dota 2.

Critical, bash, timelock, backtrack, root, soul catcher...

1. Did not know DotA 2 was considered a e-sport, I know DotA 1 was considered a competitive game though not sure if to the sports level.

2. By what I know of DotA 2 (played only a bit) criticals are the only luck-based element... and if it is anything like LoL then crits can be increased via items which in turn reduces the luck element, the others you mentioned are skills or skill effects.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5628

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

7/14/13 12:53:19 PM#64
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Dihoru

Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 have no RNG...

Pretty sure League of Legends also does not have RNG.

RNG = Random numbers spat out using a specific mathematics formula which simulates randomness

What LoL uses (to my knowledge) are formulas for determining damage outputs on differing heroes based on various stats. 

In fact with E-sports you'd be hard pressed to find any game with RNG.

Well LoL does have a RNG element (critical strikes), but overall the random aspect of it plays an extremely minor role (don't think I've ever watched a game where I felt someone won a fight purely due to luck.)

You're definitely right that any e-sport game has virtually no RNG presence, so that skill can be the only factor to winning a game.  While I sorta enjoy crits in TF2 for pub play, they're definitely one of the things that prevented it from becoming an e-sport (that and how the game isn't really balanced for competitive play, even though some TF2 weapons have extremely high skill ceilings.)

Ehh... LoL had random crits which could give you an edge in the "laning phase", but they were removed long time ago. Only way to get crits today is to buy items for it. And, in TF2 tournaments, random crits are OFF. TF2 was/is an e-sport with international tournaments. It is fairly well balanced too - I don't know what would make you think otherwise.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/14/13 3:49:49 PM#65
Originally posted by Quirhid

Ehh... LoL had random crits which could give you an edge in the "laning phase", but they were removed long time ago. Only way to get crits today is to buy items for it. And, in TF2 tournaments, random crits are OFF. TF2 was/is an e-sport with international tournaments. It is fairly well balanced too - I don't know what would make you think otherwise.

Right, the only way to get RNG is to buy it -- but it's still RNG.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5628

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

7/14/13 4:43:51 PM#66
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Quirhid

Ehh... LoL had random crits which could give you an edge in the "laning phase", but they were removed long time ago. Only way to get crits today is to buy items for it. And, in TF2 tournaments, random crits are OFF. TF2 was/is an e-sport with international tournaments. It is fairly well balanced too - I don't know what would make you think otherwise.

Right, the only way to get RNG is to buy it -- but it's still RNG.

Early game crits were the lucky hits you were referring to. Bought crit items, which count later, don't have a similar effect. The added damage is to be expected, meaning you can count your crit towards your DPS.

There's no point taking a stance against all RNG effects since they can be fairly benign.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/14/13 8:42:45 PM#67
Originally posted by Quirhid

Early game crits were the lucky hits you were referring to. Bought crit items, which count later, don't have a similar effect. The added damage is to be expected, meaning you can count your crit towards your DPS.

There's no point taking a stance against all RNG effects since they can be fairly benign.

Eh, people still can and do use 1% crit glyphs in an opening build. (And if we're talking about the actual total possible crit you can start with, it's 8.37% from runes and 8% from an item.)

I agree the game is overwhelmingly deterministic, but we shouldn't pretend this bit of RNG doesn't exist.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

 
OP  7/15/13 2:01:02 AM#68
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Quirhid

Early game crits were the lucky hits you were referring to. Bought crit items, which count later, don't have a similar effect. The added damage is to be expected, meaning you can count your crit towards your DPS.

There's no point taking a stance against all RNG effects since they can be fairly benign.

Eh, people still can and do use 1% crit glyphs in an opening build. (And if we're talking about the actual total possible crit you can start with, it's 8.37% from runes and 8% from an item.)

I agree the game is overwhelmingly deterministic, but we shouldn't pretend this bit of RNG doesn't exist.

There are plenty of RNG in real sports. Slight unevenness on a tennis court can affect the trajectory of the tennis ball slightly. It is not like all sports have no random elements.

Heck, you flip a coin to determine who goes first in Football .. isn't that RNG?

 

  Nephelai

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/29/13
Posts: 168

7/15/13 2:17:56 AM#69
Originally posted by nariusseldon

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/196195/US_recognizes_eSports_players_as_professional_athletes.php

""The United States government recognizes League of Legends pro players as professional athletes, and awards visas to essentially work in the United States under that title"

 

They want some of their winnings as taxes is all.

  thinktank001

Elite Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1920

7/15/13 8:45:39 AM#70
Originally posted by nariusseldon

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/196195/US_recognizes_eSports_players_as_professional_athletes.php

""The United States government recognizes League of Legends pro players as professional athletes, and awards visas to essentially work in the United States under that title"

 

 

I was surprised to see that too, but some of the comments made were a lot more compelling.   

 

I suppose when a former Olympic trainer that trained two gold medalist states he believes it should be classified as a sport; it kind makes a person look at their own argument a be more closely.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10924

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/15/13 9:22:29 AM#71


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Quirhid Early game crits were the lucky hits you were referring to. Bought crit items, which count later, don't have a similar effect. The added damage is to be expected, meaning you can count your crit towards your DPS. There's no point taking a stance against all RNG effects since they can be fairly benign.
Eh, people still can and do use 1% crit glyphs in an opening build. (And if we're talking about the actual total possible crit you can start with, it's 8.37% from runes and 8% from an item.) I agree the game is overwhelmingly deterministic, but we shouldn't pretend this bit of RNG doesn't exist.
There are plenty of RNG in real sports. Slight unevenness on a tennis court can affect the trajectory of the tennis ball slightly. It is not like all sports have no random elements.

Heck, you flip a coin to determine who goes first in Football .. isn't that RNG?

 




It depends on whether the RNG will determine who wins, and whether the RNG is part of the game play itself.

In tennis, the rules do not stipulate random variations in the surface of the tennis court. They probably have to have a minimum flatness in order to serve as an official tennis court in order to minimize randomness.

In video games, things like crits are an introduced RNG. I think it could be argued that the RNG does have an impact, but it has the same impact for all players. The question is whether it's skill that wins a match or the RNG that wins a match.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Greez

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/03/13
Posts: 104

7/15/13 9:45:31 AM#72
Originally posted by Dihoru

1. Did not know DotA 2 was considered a e-sport, I know DotA 1 was considered a competitive game though not sure if to the sports level.

2. By what I know of DotA 2 (played only a bit) criticals are the only luck-based element... and if it is anything like LoL then crits can be increased via items which in turn reduces the luck element, the others you mentioned are skills or skill effects.

I think millions in prize money make it an eSport, all right. The only people who don't think it's an eSport are those who are not following the game in any way, shape, or form (possibly due to beta status, although it's out of beta at this point). From what I recall, the only game it's properly behind viewership wise is LoL, and we are getting close to International 3 which could make quite a difference.

The skills and skill effects are still luck based. Dota 2 does use something called Pseudo-Random Distribution, but it's still a matter of chance. That page also lists some of the skills that involve RNG in some way.

But one of the most controversial RNG effects in the game is Entangle of the Spirit Bear: http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Lone_Druid#Spirit_Bear

Entangle has a 20% chance to proc, and whether it procs or not can often make the difference between a kill or an escape, since it roots the enemy and deals damage over time.

  Jadedangel1

Novice Member

Joined: 5/25/13
Posts: 187

7/15/13 9:48:30 AM#73

At first seeing this news, all I could think was "wtf?!" Lmao

But if curling, synchronized swimming, water polo, and competitive speed walking can all be Olympic sports, then I see no reason why e-sports can't have their share.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2847

There... are... four... lights!

7/15/13 9:51:13 AM#74

Different sports, different results...


 

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Soki123

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/08
Posts: 1319

7/15/13 9:56:02 AM#75
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Different sports, different results...


 Agreed, sadly.

 

  irnbru69

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/09/11
Posts: 39

7/15/13 10:03:41 AM#76

Not that im against people having games considered as sports, but no one gives a crap what the US government thinks.

They said ganja is a drug... the medical and science community disagrees

They said Fluoride is good, but the experts and our body tells a different story.

They say a lot of things and it mainly comes down to money, its only been accepted officially  because some where down the line they know that there is money to be made.

People on here trying to use the fact that most of these gamers are fat and there for it should not be considered a sport ??

Wrong.... what about Darts, and billiards and plenty of fat people take part in that, to just say this is not a sport because there not athletic is just pure dim witted and naive. ive seen many many many fat NFL players so take your fat arguments and stick them up your fat ass =)

 

ps: im not fat =o, who cares ?

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2847

There... are... four... lights!

7/15/13 10:07:35 AM#77

People are trying to say that a sport is meant to be a PHYSICAL activity.

Sitting on a chair, playing computer games or chess or cards or whatever else is not a physical activity.

Those activities should definitely not be bashed down, I'm more of a brainiac than a sport guy myself, but calling them a "sport" is just nonsense. It's like calling a bike a car just because both have wheels.

I've been playing computer games for over 30 years. I'm a huge fan of them. Yet calling them a "sport" makes me laugh at the nonsense.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Greez

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/03/13
Posts: 104

7/15/13 10:40:08 AM#78
I'm honestly not sure why darts are a sport or what the word "sport" even means at that point...
  User Deleted
7/15/13 10:41:21 AM#79
I normally don't take the governments word on anything....sorry
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

 
OP  7/15/13 11:11:16 AM#80
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Quirhid Early game crits were the lucky hits you were referring to. Bought crit items, which count later, don't have a similar effect. The added damage is to be expected, meaning you can count your crit towards your DPS. There's no point taking a stance against all RNG effects since they can be fairly benign.
Eh, people still can and do use 1% crit glyphs in an opening build. (And if we're talking about the actual total possible crit you can start with, it's 8.37% from runes and 8% from an item.) I agree the game is overwhelmingly deterministic, but we shouldn't pretend this bit of RNG doesn't exist.
There are plenty of RNG in real sports. Slight unevenness on a tennis court can affect the trajectory of the tennis ball slightly. It is not like all sports have no random elements.

 

Heck, you flip a coin to determine who goes first in Football .. isn't that RNG?

 




It depends on whether the RNG will determine who wins, and whether the RNG is part of the game play itself.

In tennis, the rules do not stipulate random variations in the surface of the tennis court. They probably have to have a minimum flatness in order to serve as an official tennis court in order to minimize randomness.

In video games, things like crits are an introduced RNG. I think it could be argued that the RNG does have an impact, but it has the same impact for all players. The question is whether it's skill that wins a match or the RNG that wins a match.

 

So it is the degree of RNG, not the existence.

And certainly there is RNG in the coin toss.

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