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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Has MMO PVE Peaked?

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80 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

7/12/13 11:30:44 AM#41
Originally posted by Tierless

Well has it? Maybe the reason we are seeing so many PVP mmos is that there is so much left to do. We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years and the majority of it got burned through and thrown out faster than you can say SWTOR. EQN is promising something new and special, after that, what is left for PVE?

Other online genre like ARPG, co-op RPG, and "shared word shooters" like Destiny?

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10924

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/12/13 11:51:20 AM#42


Originally posted by Jemcrystal

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Tierless Well has it? Maybe the reason we are seeing so many PVP mmos is that there is so much left to do. We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years and the majority of it got burned through and thrown out faster than you can say SWTOR. EQN is promising something new and special, after that, what is left for PVE?
You might want to wait for the PvP MMOs to actually show up first. I dunno, the ideal PvE setup is all kind of a mish-mash in my head of playing Fallout and playing some FFA Minecraft servers with player run factions. Even on the Minecraft servers it was mostly a PvE experience and it was very satisfying. Here's the important part of the Minecraft servers, to me. I was able to start before my wife, collect resources, kill or get killed in the open world until I had enough resources to start my own faction. Once I was able to do that, I was able to create a safe space for my wife to play and we were both able to play on the server and have a lot of fun. She even got into some open world FFA PvP because the resource/exploration benefits were worth it to her. For a frame of reference her other game was Animal Crossing and she always ran into her little house when a spider or scorpion showed up. If an MMORPG was able to recreate something akin to that experience, with Skyrim's ability to tell stories, then the PvE side of things would be set. Throw in some dungeons and raids and call it a day.  
The only part of what you said that irritated me was the very last sentence.  Why does every game maker outside of DDO think that "some" dungeons are going to work???  I think there should be a limit of 5000 WORKING dungeons before an mmo is allowed to be released.  Not saying they have to run them all the time.  Run one scheduled dungeon every hour with an extra daily chest (like Forsaken World and Neverwinter).  Leave two more non-dailies running change those out once every six hours.

Open World PvE is necessary with an elaborate beautiful landscape.  Elaborate character creation for individuality.  Elaborate crafting system rare only items.  THREE DIGIT LIMIT ON THE AUCTION HOUSE (never done before and damn good idea of mine).  And a shiz load of dungeons with a daily of Auction House only spendable cash.  Unique dungeon chest drop per class directly to the player of said class auto loot style (no fighting over chest drops - just have it land in inventory to the right person).  

Here is where Neverwinter screwed up.  They offered the daily to PvP arena.  Now no one will bother with the dungeons because a PvP arena match TAKES LESS TIME.  

And get rid of that damn STUPID leveling system 1-60 making so players only can play with peeps their level destroying the social potential and goading players to rush through the game.




The problem with MMORPG dungeon development is that each dungeon is expected to be unique, with unique monsters and unique mechanics. According to Mark Kern, the guy from Firefall, it can take six to eight weeks to create a boss, and that's just the graphics portion of the job. Five thousand dungeons based on the MMORPG standard of uniqueness would not be possible.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  ReallyNow10

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1665

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/12/13 12:35:14 PM#43
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Pve should have a great story at its heart and we will never tire of great stories. Unfortunately lots of 'interesting things to do' and instant action over context etc etc leaves no room for story. Sooner or later designers will learn and pve will renew afresh.

Story as in great lore or conflicts and faction disputes, most certainly.  But not story as in "here-is-a-script-in-your-hand-you-must-follow-this-personal-storyline-because-you-are-the-chosen-one" nonsense.

  ReallyNow10

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1665

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/12/13 12:36:07 PM#44
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Jemcrystal

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Tierless Well has it? Maybe the reason we are seeing so many PVP mmos is that there is so much left to do. We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years and the majority of it got burned through and thrown out faster than you can say SWTOR. EQN is promising something new and special, after that, what is left for PVE?
You might want to wait for the PvP MMOs to actually show up first. I dunno, the ideal PvE setup is all kind of a mish-mash in my head of playing Fallout and playing some FFA Minecraft servers with player run factions. Even on the Minecraft servers it was mostly a PvE experience and it was very satisfying. Here's the important part of the Minecraft servers, to me. I was able to start before my wife, collect resources, kill or get killed in the open world until I had enough resources to start my own faction. Once I was able to do that, I was able to create a safe space for my wife to play and we were both able to play on the server and have a lot of fun. She even got into some open world FFA PvP because the resource/exploration benefits were worth it to her. For a frame of reference her other game was Animal Crossing and she always ran into her little house when a spider or scorpion showed up. If an MMORPG was able to recreate something akin to that experience, with Skyrim's ability to tell stories, then the PvE side of things would be set. Throw in some dungeons and raids and call it a day.  
The only part of what you said that irritated me was the very last sentence.  Why does every game maker outside of DDO think that "some" dungeons are going to work???  I think there should be a limit of 5000 WORKING dungeons before an mmo is allowed to be released.  Not saying they have to run them all the time.  Run one scheduled dungeon every hour with an extra daily chest (like Forsaken World and Neverwinter).  Leave two more non-dailies running change those out once every six hours.

 

Open World PvE is necessary with an elaborate beautiful landscape.  Elaborate character creation for individuality.  Elaborate crafting system rare only items.  THREE DIGIT LIMIT ON THE AUCTION HOUSE (never done before and damn good idea of mine).  And a shiz load of dungeons with a daily of Auction House only spendable cash.  Unique dungeon chest drop per class directly to the player of said class auto loot style (no fighting over chest drops - just have it land in inventory to the right person).  

Here is where Neverwinter screwed up.  They offered the daily to PvP arena.  Now no one will bother with the dungeons because a PvP arena match TAKES LESS TIME.  

And get rid of that damn STUPID leveling system 1-60 making so players only can play with peeps their level destroying the social potential and goading players to rush through the game.




The problem with MMORPG dungeon development is that each dungeon is expected to be unique, with unique monsters and unique mechanics. According to Mark Kern, the guy from Firefall, it can take six to eight weeks to create a boss, and that's just the graphics portion of the job. Five thousand dungeons based on the MMORPG standard of uniqueness would not be possible.

 

Unless, you take parts of those bosses and mix-match to come up with new combinations of old components.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

7/12/13 12:42:50 PM#45
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Unless, you take parts of those bosses and mix-match to come up with new combinations of old components.

Sounds great.

"OMG Clone!!11one!!"

Sorry, but haven't you ever been around for a raiding tier succession of patches, when every boss is instantly declared unoriginal and boring because "it's just like X from Y"?

 

Off to play my unoriginal and boring ARPG! Hiyo Silver, away!

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

7/12/13 1:00:46 PM#46
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Pve should have a great story at its heart and we will never tire of great stories. Unfortunately lots of 'interesting things to do' and instant action over context etc etc leaves no room for story. Sooner or later designers will learn and pve will renew afresh.

Story as in great lore or conflicts and faction disputes, most certainly.  But not story as in "here-is-a-script-in-your-hand-you-must-follow-this-personal-storyline-because-you-are-the-chosen-one" nonsense.

Why not? It works quite well in STO. Not a chosen one story .. but a scripted one nevertheless.

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10924

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/12/13 1:42:36 PM#47


Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Jemcrystal

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Tierless Well has it? Maybe the reason we are seeing so many PVP mmos is that there is so much left to do. We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years and the majority of it got burned through and thrown out faster than you can say SWTOR. EQN is promising something new and special, after that, what is left for PVE?
You might want to wait for the PvP MMOs to actually show up first. I dunno, the ideal PvE setup is all kind of a mish-mash in my head of playing Fallout and playing some FFA Minecraft servers with player run factions. Even on the Minecraft servers it was mostly a PvE experience and it was very satisfying. Here's the important part of the Minecraft servers, to me. I was able to start before my wife, collect resources, kill or get killed in the open world until I had enough resources to start my own faction. Once I was able to do that, I was able to create a safe space for my wife to play and we were both able to play on the server and have a lot of fun. She even got into some open world FFA PvP because the resource/exploration benefits were worth it to her. For a frame of reference her other game was Animal Crossing and she always ran into her little house when a spider or scorpion showed up. If an MMORPG was able to recreate something akin to that experience, with Skyrim's ability to tell stories, then the PvE side of things would be set. Throw in some dungeons and raids and call it a day.  
The only part of what you said that irritated me was the very last sentence.  Why does every game maker outside of DDO think that "some" dungeons are going to work???  I think there should be a limit of 5000 WORKING dungeons before an mmo is allowed to be released.  Not saying they have to run them all the time.  Run one scheduled dungeon every hour with an extra daily chest (like Forsaken World and Neverwinter).  Leave two more non-dailies running change those out once every six hours.   Open World PvE is necessary with an elaborate beautiful landscape.  Elaborate character creation for individuality.  Elaborate crafting system rare only items.  THREE DIGIT LIMIT ON THE AUCTION HOUSE (never done before and damn good idea of mine).  And a shiz load of dungeons with a daily of Auction House only spendable cash.  Unique dungeon chest drop per class directly to the player of said class auto loot style (no fighting over chest drops - just have it land in inventory to the right person).   Here is where Neverwinter screwed up.  They offered the daily to PvP arena.  Now no one will bother with the dungeons because a PvP arena match TAKES LESS TIME.   And get rid of that damn STUPID leveling system 1-60 making so players only can play with peeps their level destroying the social potential and goading players to rush through the game.
The problem with MMORPG dungeon development is that each dungeon is expected to be unique, with unique monsters and unique mechanics. According to Mark Kern, the guy from Firefall, it can take six to eight weeks to create a boss, and that's just the graphics portion of the job. Five thousand dungeons based on the MMORPG standard of uniqueness would not be possible.  
Unless, you take parts of those bosses and mix-match to come up with new combinations of old components.



It doesn't work like that. I'm absolutely not an expert on this stuff, but I have messed around with it for giggles. My guess would be reusing components gets you a six week development time and creating new stuff gets you an eight week development time. It really cannot be over emphasized how intensive the graphics side of game development is now. Maybe it's always been hard, but now it takes a lot longer than say, five years ago. The programming side of things is almost easy in comparison.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  emperorwings

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1384

7/12/13 1:50:41 PM#48
In WoW maybe thanks to MoP excluding raids which although are boring work as intended. Look at lvl 83 healing and 85 healing as an example one being balanced while the other not quite there.  EQ1 and even EQ2 are pretty much as good as it gets when it comes to button mashing. PvE can be improved upon it depends what style you're looking at a button masher, arpg, tacticle etc. Everythingi n the MMORPG industry I've seen reguarding PvE can be improved upon so we have better days coming in the future.

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1946

May the game be ever in your favor.

7/12/13 1:59:22 PM#49
It's because every PvE MMO now tries to hold your hand and is too linear. There needs to be a game with no wiki and no hand-holding that just tells you go off and do whatever is is that you want to do. All these games that practically give you a free-ride to endgame are boring and shallow.

Smile

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17396

7/12/13 2:06:05 PM#50
Originally posted by Tierless

Well has it? Maybe the reason we are seeing so many PVP mmos is that there is so much left to do. We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years and the majority of it got burned through and thrown out faster than you can say SWTOR. EQN is promising something new and special, after that, what is left for PVE?

I don't think so.

Because the same thing could be said about pvp.

Have there really been so many inventive leaps in pvp over the years? The only thing I can note for myself was that I loved pvp in Tera more than any other mmo I've played.

Other than that it's the same thing: you get them, they get you, if you are lucky there is territory control if not then you are pvp'ing for the sake of it or just flipping objectives.

Many things can be done with PvE but developers don't ratchet it up because as one developer once said "it's easy to make it so the computer can always win".

That's not really what pve is about. Other than story reasons mobs are powerups.

Look at Darkfall's pve; it's great. The mobs can actually see you at a realistic distance and they can kill you. I died more in dark fall in the first hour than I probably did in LOTRO in a year.

 

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1507

7/12/13 3:02:53 PM#51
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Tierless
Well has it? Maybe the reason we are seeing so many PVP mmos is that there is so much left to do. We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years and the majority of it got burned through and thrown out faster than you can say SWTOR. EQN is promising something new and special, after that, what is left for PVE?



You might want to wait for the PvP MMOs to actually show up first.

I dunno, the ideal PvE setup is all kind of a mish-mash in my head of playing Fallout and playing some FFA Minecraft servers with player run factions. Even on the Minecraft servers it was mostly a PvE experience and it was very satisfying.

Here's the important part of the Minecraft servers, to me. I was able to start before my wife, collect resources, kill or get killed in the open world until I had enough resources to start my own faction. Once I was able to do that, I was able to create a safe space for my wife to play and we were both able to play on the server and have a lot of fun. She even got into some open world FFA PvP because the resource/exploration benefits were worth it to her. For a frame of reference her other game was Animal Crossing and she always ran into her little house when a spider or scorpion showed up. If an MMORPG was able to recreate something akin to that experience, with Skyrim's ability to tell stories, then the PvE side of things would be set. Throw in some dungeons and raids and call it a day.

 

Just as a personal note. If you enjoyed that kind of Minecraft server, you might as well(including your wife) enjoy EvE. Because really it isn't that different. The different security level scale very well (1.0 to 0.0), and you can always go back to the high security level and just visit the more dangerous low sec(0.4-0.1) territories.

Ok.. it is space opera, no dungeons. But you have a whole lot of PvE Missions(Quests) you have NPC Faction warfare, where you can join some of the NPC Factions and fight other players from the other Factions. And of course all that exploring, and you can a lot of it do within the high sec. territory. Gathering, Crafting(Industrial), Economy Play, Hauling(Transporting Goods) and of course Exploring are really the strong points of EvE, and you can really look for your level of pvp activity, and you can do a lot and all of that to some degree in high security space.

The same is true for ArcheAge by the way.. although i don't know how it will turn out in the end.

@Topic:

About PvE has peaked. Well.. the themepark pve has peaked, the diku model(diku mud, eq, wow, more or less 99% of all pve mmorpgs) has most probably peaked.

But with better AI, more dynamic setups, and without focusing just on progression, and even more without focusing only on combat, with really give different roles/classes different playstyle (think Thief), i do see a lot of options a lot of evolving opportunities. There's life in the old dog yet.

  kingotnw

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/13/04
Posts: 103

7/12/13 3:12:33 PM#52

Lol... PvE is crap over the past few years compared to what it once was. Some seem worried about designing a better PvE system... Hell... I would be happy with one in the same ball park as what we used to get. Twitch PvP games are addictive and easy. Call of Duty games are the same thing as GW2 and so forth, only with less firing options, and better reflexes needed.  PvP games are fine, but they aren't even close to the same thing as what a PvE designed game is. People stopped caring about PvE design when they got into the fast food type questing. There was no need to work on advancements to it, people were too busy trying to move to the next area because the one they had spent 30 minutes in was already boring to them.

 

Lol @ PvE peaked... Come on now man... It has regressed beyond belief.

  Greez

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/03/13
Posts: 104

7/12/13 3:22:01 PM#53
Um, no? PvE is still, like, in its infancy...
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/12/13 3:46:33 PM#54

It hasn't peaked, it's just waiting for someone to come along who actually understands what the gameplay is in a MMORPG.  The core gameplay is what you're doing 80% or more of the time in an MMORPG, which is usually combat.  Most games' PVE combat lacks anything close to the nuanced skill-reward of WOW, and WOW isn't exactly the best that can be done:

  • Your character is a puzzle.  Figuring out the way to optimize your skill rotations, loadouts, and the game controls, in order to squeeze the most performance out of your character is a game unto itself.  This enables deeper gameplay where progressively higher player skill is rewarded with better performance.  
  • Threat-based grouping is a puzzle.  Figuring out how to manage the way the AI decides to attack the party is an actual game, rather than a realistic model (which might not be as rewarding of player skill, if the players were able to manipulate it at all.)
  • Your opponent is a puzzle.  He will have a set of capabilities, and there will be a way of optimizing against those capabilities (simplest example being: he casts a spell, you interrupt it.)  This layers onto the other puzzles, and rewards skill.  Ideally you want enemy capabilities to be somewhat self-evident (when he lights the ground on fire, it's visibly on fire) so that the challenge isn't about figuring out what the mob is doing, but how to deal with it.   Although I suppose this bullet point could be expanded to "the encounter is a puzzle", because it can involve environmental challenges too.
And that's just a simple breakdown which leaves out some things like how group members interact with one another (the Trinity Puzzle, if you will.)
 
So you have all these layers of gameplay patterns (puzzles) which create deep, skill-rewarding gameplay.  Each layer tends to have at least some interaction with the other layers (simplest example being that if the boss does some high priority ability you have to avoid, it will interrupt your personal damage rotation and you'll have to figure out where to pick back up again.)
 
If that sort of design isn't the key to WOW's dominance, it's at least very high up on the list.
 
The problems with PVE MMOs are twofold:
  1. MMORPGs trying to copy WOW don't even manage to recreate the tapestry of puzzles it has.  Either the character puzzle is flat (WAR) or the opponent puzzles are nonexistent (SWTOR, WAR) or something along those lines.
  2. But what players are most interested isn't a copy of the puzzles they've already mastered, but a set of brand new puzzles.  They don't all have to be new (in fact it's pretty expensive and incredibly risky to try to completely redesign the entire genre from scratch) but a very significant amount of them need to be different so the player feels there's reason to learn the new game -- so it's not the same thing they've already mastered.
  Greez

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/03/13
Posts: 104

7/12/13 3:57:53 PM#55
Originally posted by Axehilt

  1. MMORPGs trying to copy WOW don't even manage to recreate the tapestry of puzzles it has.  Either the character puzzle is flat (WAR) or the opponent puzzles are nonexistent (SWTOR, WAR) or something along those lines.

I'll agree with your 2nd point, but not this one. I find Rift to be greatly superior to WoW as far as these puzzles go.

The other issue you're forgetting, is that you're only concentrating on a minute portion of the game: the instances. There's the rest of the world as well, which is getting barely any attention, but it is still PvE. Most of that has greatly reduced strategy.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

7/12/13 4:41:53 PM#56
Originally posted by Apraxis

But with better AI, more dynamic setups, and without focusing just on progression, and even more without focusing only on combat, with really give different roles/classes different playstyle (think Thief), i do see a lot of options a lot of evolving opportunities. There's life in the old dog yet.

Thief (and stealth) i generally think of the core gameplay as combat ... that is how you overcome your adversary.

Sneaking up and do a take-down is fun .. but fundamentally, just another way of killing. Even "non-lethal" option (sleeping gas for example) is the same thing. It is only "non-lethal" in words.

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1817

7/12/13 4:49:50 PM#57

I don't think it's about PvE or PvP.

I think MMO's have peaked. For any number of reasons, most people aren't in to online games.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/12/13 5:01:50 PM#58
Originally posted by Greez

I'll agree with your 2nd point, but not this one. I find Rift to be greatly superior to WoW as far as these puzzles go.

The other issue you're forgetting, is that you're only concentrating on a minute portion of the game: the instances. There's the rest of the world as well, which is getting barely any attention, but it is still PvE. Most of that has greatly reduced strategy.

I wasn't focused on instances at all, but that has historically been the area where the puzzles in MMORPGs have been the most interesting.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1507

7/12/13 5:04:40 PM#59
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Apraxis

But with better AI, more dynamic setups, and without focusing just on progression, and even more without focusing only on combat, with really give different roles/classes different playstyle (think Thief), i do see a lot of options a lot of evolving opportunities. There's life in the old dog yet.

Thief (and stealth) i generally think of the core gameplay as combat ... that is how you overcome your adversary.

Sneaking up and do a take-down is fun .. but fundamentally, just another way of killing. Even "non-lethal" option (sleeping gas for example) is the same thing. It is only "non-lethal" in words.

I thought about the single player series Thief I-III, and that kind of gameplay... it isn't just combat. The complete sneaking in shadows, taking down light, and yay non-lethal kind of combat, and mobs acting on "hear" or "see" anything kind of things.

And now think about it for different "classes", where any class actually got personal mechanics, and where the gameplay really differ. In MMOs it is rather press button 1-5 to take enemy down. And the only difference is animation and particel effect, and maybe range. But albeit of that magic, melee combat or almost anything else feel exactly the same.  And at top of that most of the time mobs do nothing.

If i think about Mages i do think about a old game like Arx Fatalis(or something like that) where you had to draw runes to spell, and no think about figuring actually spells with different rune, and not just to get another skill. Well old dungeon master back in the late '80 got that one. MMOs are overall dumbed down, in almost any aspect.

  DamonVile

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

7/12/13 5:08:51 PM#60
Originally posted by free2play

I don't think it's about PvE or PvP.

I think MMO's have peaked. For any number of reasons, most people aren't in to online games.

lol

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