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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Has MMO PVE Peaked?

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80 posts found
  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2096

joie de vivre

 
OP  7/12/13 8:43:07 AM#1

Well has it? Maybe the reason we are seeing so many PVP mmos is that there is so much left to do. We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years and the majority of it got burned through and thrown out faster than you can say SWTOR. EQN is promising something new and special, after that, what is left for PVE?

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18787

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/12/13 8:46:44 AM#2

No, the one theme park model first made popular by EQ and built and improved upon in WOW has probably run it's course, but there are still alternate game designs created in the past but no longer in use and certainly some ideas yet to be really explored that could be combined into a new game.

Whether or not such a change would bring about another big hit like WOW is debatable, but unless some Developer takes the risk (and spends the cash) the world may never know.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 626

7/12/13 8:57:12 AM#3
Originally posted by Tierless

Well has it? Maybe the reason we are seeing so many PVP mmos is that there is so much left to do. We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years and the majority of it got burned through and thrown out faster than you can say SWTOR. EQN is promising something new and special, after that, what is left for PVE?

Tierless?  or perhaps tireless as in 'tirelessly persuing a PvP agenda.  But I think tiresome would be best.
 

Tiresome as in refusing to admit that for quite a lot of us it Is PvP that has long since become stale and faded into insignificance.  PvE has a long way to go and many more games will be based on it. PvP will drift back into obscurity along with the FPS that are already beginning to wane.

 

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2096

joie de vivre

 
OP  7/12/13 9:03:26 AM#4


Originally posted by craftseeker

Originally posted by Tierless Well has it? Maybe the reason we are seeing so many PVP mmos is that there is so much left to do. We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years and the majority of it got burned through and thrown out faster than you can say SWTOR. EQN is promising something new and special, after that, what is left for PVE?
Tierless?  or perhaps tireless as in 'tirelessly persuing a PvP agenda.  But I think tiresome would be best. 

Tiresome as in refusing to admit that for quite a lot of us it Is PvP that has long since become stale and faded into insignificance.  PvE has a long way to go and many more games will be based on it. PvP will drift back into obscurity along with the FPS that are already beginning to wane.

 


Fascinating, please elaborate on how PVE will progress and what "a long ways to go" might entail. I was honestly hopeing this to turn into a "what can PVE do next" sort of ideas thread (because that fits my PVP agenda so well).

Think about it, SWTOR gave us super RPG MMO, and we hated it. GW2 have us solo PVE MMO and it's doing ok, Raiding-done, Instancing-done.

Maybe it's time for open world dungeons in MMOs again?

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4375

7/12/13 9:15:35 AM#5

It's a lack of options and things to do in the current pve mmos that's the problem, not pve itself. They're all far too linear and confined that people get bored "walking along the road"

It has absolutely nothing at all to do with combat or npc mobs being boring...to a pve player.

It's why so many people foam at the mouth over sandbox and hate anything themepark. They want some freedom to move around and actually go places.  Things that the old school mmos had but seemed to have been forgotten by developers.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

7/12/13 9:26:19 AM#6
Originally posted by DamonVile

It's a lack of options and things to do in the current pve mmos that's the problem, not pve itself. They're all far too linear and confined that people get bored "walking along the road"

Yet, once you step off the road and onto one of the side paths, you generally discover there's quite a lot to do that the main road drove right past.

Akin to driving on Route 66, rather than the interstate. The design, and indeed main herd of the gamers, are plowing ahead on the freeway of least resistance.

It's why so many people foam at the mouth over sandbox and hate anything themepark. They want some freedom to move around and actually go places.  Things that the old school mmos had but seemed to have been forgotten by developers.

And maybe it demonstrates a lack of willingness (on the player's side) to ever leave the comfort and convenience of the Interstate.

"How come we're forced to quest?", someone complained the other day. You are? Since when? It's the path of least resistance (in many titles), but as far as I know there isn't any title where it's the only path.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  darkhalf357x

Elite Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1086

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

7/12/13 9:26:20 AM#7
Originally posted by DamonVile

It's a lack of options and things to do in the current pve mmos that's the problem, not pve itself. They're all far too linear and confined that people get bored "walking along the road"

It has absolutely nothing at all to do with combat or npc mobs being boring...to a pve player.

It's why so many people foam at the mouth over sandbox and hate anything themepark. They want some freedom to move around and actually go places.  Things that the old school mmos had but seemed to have been forgotten by developers.

 

Nailed it. Linear PvE no matter how great the story is will eventually get boring. What MMOs have NOT done is add quality side systems for gamers to invest in. Crafting is the most common, yet typically reduced to the point that it doesnt make sense to use. The systems need to be interdependent. There should be an auction house but we should also have dependency on crafters. Items should degrade. Publishers loom like they are trying to sell the console model as MMOs to increase their audience which I find ironic because it is the state of consoles that drove me to MMOs. Currently no one wants to commit to the above thus PvE has room to grow.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16452

7/12/13 9:37:13 AM#8
Originally posted by Tierless

Well has it? Maybe the reason we are seeing so many PVP mmos is that there is so much left to do. We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years and the majority of it got burned through and thrown out faster than you can say SWTOR. EQN is promising something new and special, after that, what is left for PVE?

Currently have PvE MMOs stagnated, but it have more to do with lack of innovation than anything else.

Frankly is it the PvP CORPGs like LOL and DOTA2 that are growing right now, I guess they are doing what they do better at the moment than the other types of games.

But there might be a new PvE generation around the corner, Neverwinter have a rather promising system of handling player created content and there are other interesting ideas around as well that havn't made a big game yet.

What is clear is that both PvE themeparks and PVP sandboxes needs to improve their mechanics to be more fun. The old spawn camping and faction grinding PvE themepark is indeed under heavy fire at the moment and if the PvE games want to survive they need to improve.

But I am pretty sure that will happen. If no-one big makes a game like that then a kicks tarter of some kind should win the day.

Then again we might get a sandbox PvP game as the big one in the future (like UO was in 1997) as long as someone makes it just right. WoDO seems to have the potential.

The idea of a massive computer version of a pen and paper roleplaying game is just too good so I am sure we will see all kind of new ideas in the future, both PvE and PvP.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1891

7/12/13 9:40:52 AM#9
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Tierless

Well has it? Maybe the reason we are seeing so many PVP mmos is that there is so much left to do. We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years and the majority of it got burned through and thrown out faster than you can say SWTOR. EQN is promising something new and special, after that, what is left for PVE?

Tierless?  or perhaps tireless as in 'tirelessly persuing a PvP agenda.  But I think tiresome would be best.
 

Tiresome as in refusing to admit that for quite a lot of us it Is PvP that has long since become stale and faded into insignificance.  PvE has a long way to go and many more games will be based on it. PvP will drift back into obscurity along with the FPS that are already beginning to wane.

 

Agreed.  The problem for PvP in an RPG is the amount of time investment and the necessity for progression and PvE to support it.  It does not make a good mix, unlike a TPS or FPS, where progression can easily be thrown out the window and most of those types of gamers could care less about an explorable world and aren't interested in huge time investments.

 

As long as they keep making MMORPGs and the gamers who like them still want character progression, you're going to have a much larger and robust PvE crowd over that of the PvP crowd.  Especially in light of many PvPers who have admitted on this very board that they like games with both types of content for when they're bored with PvP and want a little PvE for relaxation.

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1648

7/12/13 9:42:24 AM#10
Originally posted by DamonVile

It's a lack of options and things to do in the current pve mmos that's the problem, not pve itself. They're all far too linear and confined that people get bored "walking along the road"

It has absolutely nothing at all to do with combat or npc mobs being boring...to a pve player.

It's why so many people foam at the mouth over sandbox and hate anything themepark. They want some freedom to move around and actually go places.  Things that the old school mmos had but seemed to have been forgotten by developers.

This.

PvE needs to be more like Elder Scrolls games and less like Dragon Age.

Give players a world with interesting things in it and let them run around discovering it. I really thought MMO's would look at GW1 and take the idea of short leveling area and then opening up the world for the rest of the game. Instead they keep forcing the "this zone is for 1-15, 15-20 and so on" It's a waste of developer time and effort. Make a starting tutorial type area for the first 10 or 20 levels, make that the level cap and then open up the game world.

Craziest zone in Skyrim is that subterranean area where you realize that underneath the game, there's a zone that's as big as it's own game world with it's own dungeons. It's like the inception of gaming, dungeon within a dungeon. So good. We need more of that instead level level level, raid raid raid.

I like leveling, and I like raiding. But I really like exploring and adventuring in a game world. It's something that was kind of done with UO/EQ, but it's something that just never was taken to the next level and pushed.

 

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16452

7/12/13 9:43:42 AM#11
Originally posted by darkhalf357x
Originally posted by DamonVile

It's a lack of options and things to do in the current pve mmos that's the problem, not pve itself. They're all far too linear and confined that people get bored "walking along the road"

It has absolutely nothing at all to do with combat or npc mobs being boring...to a pve player.

It's why so many people foam at the mouth over sandbox and hate anything themepark. They want some freedom to move around and actually go places.  Things that the old school mmos had but seemed to have been forgotten by developers.

Nailed it. Linear PvE no matter how great the story is will eventually get boring. What MMOs have NOT done is add quality side systems for gamers to invest in. Crafting is the most common, yet typically reduced to the point that it doesnt make sense to use. The systems need to be interdependent. There should be an auction house but we should also have dependency on crafters. Items should degrade. Publishers loom like they are trying to sell the console model as MMOs to increase their audience which I find ironic because it is the state of consoles that drove me to MMOs. Currently no one wants to commit to the above thus PvE has room to grow.

Good point, both of you. I also think that stuff you create together with other players (like the guildcity of AoC) will be improved and play a large role in future MMOs, both sandboxes and themeparks. Creating something together is really fun. :)

EQ2 handled auctionhouses well, you could buy an item from the AH or you could go to the players own store instead and save the high brokerfee. Many people there used the AH to find who and where they should buy the stuff.

Large guildowned tradinghouses selling crafted and looted gear is really more fun than just going to the AH, but there should be a search engine to find who sells rare items.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11293

7/12/13 9:46:13 AM#12
Originally posted by Tierless

 We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years

no we havent

we've seen all kinds of Level based, Class based, Gear tiered PVE supporting "Wack A Mole"

 

theres much more that PVE can offer

-- like the noncombat Tales of the Desert PVE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Tale_in_the_Desert

 

  Four0Six

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1069

7/12/13 9:49:34 AM#13

For me it peaked when I started to learn mob mechanics in my first MMO.

Peaked because I realized they were "mechanics". Predictable to a fault. It matters not if I wander aimlessly and stumble upon a mob. Or, if I follow a line to get to the mob. Or if a player decides where the mob is. It only matter HOW the mob reacts. Since it reacts the same way every time, based on all the parameters involved, it is stale to me.

Yes there are varying degrees of complexity to the system, but it still is a system. Matters not if it is "tank and spank", "zerg DPS", "Clever CC", it still is just mechanics.

So until we get "real AI" mobs, it has peaked. When NPCs form groups to go out and fight the "player menace", then it will progress.

On an on I could go, but I think my view is made clear.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

7/12/13 9:52:37 AM#14
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Tierless

 We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years

no we havent

we've seen all kinds of Level based, Class based, Gear tiered PVE supporting "Wack A Mole"

 

theres much more that PVE can offer

-- like the noncombat Tales of the Desert PVE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Tale_in_the_Desert

 

well, non combat really isnt PvE, its something else.   Just like there is more than just themepark or sandbox (like the person who tried to call EQ1 a themepark on page 1...EQ1 was *not* a themepark) there is more than just PvP or PvE.  Crafting really isnt PvE, its crafting.  Vanguard had diplomacy.  SWG had a very strong social element to it.  A good political system is another possibility for something different.

 

But no, MMO PvE is yet to peak, it will peak when someone focuses in on the single worst part about PvE:  poor AI.  Mob AI really hasnt improved since EQ1 (in fact, most games are worse than EQ1).

Theres no reason we cant have smarter, less predictable mobs.

 

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2096

joie de vivre

 
OP  7/12/13 9:54:03 AM#15

In the old days I ran in the wild killing all manner of beast to "see what I would find or make happen". If I saw a special mob I called in friend to try killing it because it generally had unique resources or other loot. Now days things are so scripted I know if I don't follow the quests nothing will happen so I'm stuck on this scripted path (I'm looking at you WOW). When I do go off an kill a random named mob I get punished by having nothing happen because that mob is part of a quest at a later date then I didn't have on me. It's maddening.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Four0Six

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1069

7/12/13 9:54:37 AM#16
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Tierless

 We've seen all kinds of PVE over the last couple years

no we havent

we've seen all kinds of Level based, Class based, Gear tiered PVE supporting "Wack A Mole"

 

theres much more that PVE can offer

-- like the noncombat Tales of the Desert PVE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Tale_in_the_Desert

 

well, non combat really isnt PvE, its something else.   Just like there is more than just themepark or sandbox (like the person who tried to call EQ1 a themepark on page 1...EQ1 was *not* a themepark) there is more than just PvP or PvE.  Crafting really isnt PvE, its crafting.  Vanguard had diplomacy.  SWG had a very strong social element to it.  A good political system is another possibility for something different.

 

But no, MMO PvE is yet to peak, it will peak when someone focuses in on the single worst part about PvE:  poor AI.  Mob AI really hasnt improved since EQ1 (in fact, most games are worse than EQ1).

Theres no reason we cant have smarter, less predictable mobs.

 

+ 1 for saying it better than me.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

7/12/13 9:54:42 AM#17
Originally posted by Loke666
What is clear is that both PvE themeparks and PVP sandboxes needs to improve their mechanics to be more fun. The old spawn camping and faction grinding PvE themepark is indeed under heavy fire at the moment and if the PvE games want to survive they need to improve.

And in many cases, the individual gamer has just done a lot of both, and they've both grown stale.

Using self as an example:

I did the roleplay thing, a decade of it (more if go back to the PnP days). I may go back again; for me people are more interesting than any mechanic any dev has yet fielded.

I did the raid path thing, which did kill several years. Eventually, it got old (the end of BC, and all of wotlk--heroic LK 'proved' to us that we were finished with that game).

So then we switched, my partner and I, over to the PVP side for a couple of titles. Arena, battlegrounds, open world--we tried every sample available. And you know, that gets really old too?

I've done the exploring, I've done the crafting, I've built the homes and cut the trees and gathered every resource imaginable. I've played the Economic Domination Mini-game, in several titles.

EVE is the only currently significant title that I haven't done yet; and mostly just from a lack of interest. In the back of my mind, I'm 'saving it' for the next time I really get the urge to MMO again...if ever.

But every time I think about going back to mmos, I try to imagine anything different enough to represent a real and fundamental change. And from everything I've ever read about EVE, it would represent no more than another 'scene change'.

I've stopped looking for the magic bullet.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18787

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/12/13 9:56:09 AM#18
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by DamonVile

It's a lack of options and things to do in the current pve mmos that's the problem, not pve itself. They're all far too linear and confined that people get bored "walking along the road"

Yet, once you step off the road and onto one of the side paths, you generally discover there's quite a lot to do that the main road drove right past.

Akin to driving on Route 66, rather than the interstate. The design, and indeed main herd of the gamers, are plowing ahead on the freeway of least resistance.

It's why so many people foam at the mouth over sandbox and hate anything themepark. They want some freedom to move around and actually go places.  Things that the old school mmos had but seemed to have been forgotten by developers.

And maybe it demonstrates a lack of willingness (on the player's side) to ever leave the comfort and convenience of the Interstate.

"How come we're forced to quest?", someone complained the other day. You are? Since when? It's the path of least resistance (in many titles), but as far as I know there isn't any title where it's the only path.

True enough, but unless following some alternate path to questing provides similar if not equal reward for the same level of effort, then isn't really optional to not follow the script, in fact one could argue that it would be nonsensical to do so.

So sure, the player can step off the "interstate", but there had better be a pretty good reason for doing so or it just isn't going to be a satisfactory solution.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18787

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/12/13 10:03:09 AM#19
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Loke666
What is clear is that both PvE themeparks and PVP sandboxes needs to improve their mechanics to be more fun. The old spawn camping and faction grinding PvE themepark is indeed under heavy fire at the moment and if the PvE games want to survive they need to improve.

And in many cases, the individual gamer has just done a lot of both, and they've both grown stale.

Using self as an example:

I did the roleplay thing, a decade of it (more if go back to the PnP days). I may go back again; for me people are more interesting than any mechanic any dev has yet fielded.

I did the raid path thing, which did kill several years. Eventually, it got old (the end of BC, and all of wotlk--heroic LK 'proved' to us that we were finished with that game).

So then we switched, my partner and I, over to the PVP side for a couple of titles. Arena, battlegrounds, open world--we tried every sample available. And you know, that gets really old too?

I've done the exploring, I've done the crafting, I've built the homes and cut the trees and gathered every resource imaginable. I've played the Economic Domination Mini-game, in several titles.

EVE is the only currently significant title that I haven't done yet; and mostly just from a lack of interest. In the back of my mind, I'm 'saving it' for the next time I really get the urge to MMO again...if ever.

But every time I think about going back to mmos, I try to imagine anything different enough to represent a real and fundamental change. And from everything I've ever read about EVE, it would represent no more than another 'scene change'.

I've stopped looking for the magic bullet.

Like yourself, I've pretty much done all of those things, and tired of them as well.

What's interesting is that I've found at the end of it all, the only thing that keeps me playing a freeshard of an older title is my 10 or so old friends who I've gamed with on and off for over 10 years.

The mechanics don't matter, each night we go and do something, usually PVP related like take keeps, or camp a portal entrance, and at other times its craft for each other, level some alts or just shoot the breeze for a while

Perhaps there really are not new mechanics that will excite me, but at the end of the day, at least hanging around with friends still has a very strong appeal.

As for EVE, it really is what you make of it.  I'll be going back there one day, soon as I find some time.

 

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16452

7/12/13 10:08:18 AM#20
Originally posted by Kyleran

True enough, but unless following some alternate path to questing provides similar if not equal reward for the same level of effort, then isn't really optional to not follow the script, in fact one could argue that it would be nonsensical to do so.

So sure, the player can step off the "interstate", but there had better be a pretty good reason for doing so or it just isn't going to be a satisfactory solution.

Yeah, having grinding and spawn camping mobs as the slow and boring alternative is not enough.

And the games are actually putting more and more reward into soloquesting, just a few years ago doing dungeons on lower levels still was the most popular way to level since it was actually both faster and more fun.

But I think a lot of the problem is that leveling used to be the entire point of the game but have become a long and boring tutorial to the "real" endgame. If a MMO basically just is about getting better and better gear then they could as well take away the levels altogether. Right now you run past 90% of the game in a few weeks and considering how much work and money it takes to make a zone that seems like a waste of resources to me, most players only spend a few hours in a zone below max level today.

And it isn't strange that people complain that they have little to in a MMO where 90% of the game is a 3 week tutorial, they are supposed to spend years in the last 10%.

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