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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » We don't need anymore PvP focused sandbox mmos right now.

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677 posts found
  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

7/10/13 11:32:52 PM#441
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 @Narius   Jeremy has it pretty well. Human tastes in things like fashion and entertainment tend to be fairly cyclical. New things always come along but quite often old ones return time and again in popularity, especialy when you are dealing with things that are more conceptual in nature. Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists. "Sandbox" is a basic concept or style in games. It seems like it's poised to come back into fashion again.....at least that seems to be the perception among alot of Dev's. It's doubtfull that it will look exactly the same as the old sandboxes but like so many other things, as a basic concept, it has legs.  
In any event, in the context of this discussion, it's not that relevant. One of the few, clear statements that's been made about EQN is that it will be a sandbox. Now, exactly what that means is anyone's guess, but it will be a sandbox. SOE is a AAA developer and EQ is a AAA property. SOE wouldn't spend the money on Smedley's insanity if they didn't think it wouldn't return them some money. More so than any other sandbox game running, EQN will be the proof of concept for sandbox MMORPGs.  
Actually not even that is clear.  I think what he actually said was "sandbox style" which is even more vague.

 

Your right though, they would not make it if they did not believe they could make profit from it. 




SMEEEEEDLEEEEEEEEEY!


 

 

+thread pwned

  madazz

Elite Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1362

7/11/13 11:54:36 AM#442
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by madazz
Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.

Er, the opposite is the case.

Minecraft has PvP. Eve has PvP. SWG had PvP. AC has PvP. UO has PvP. Shadowbane had PvP. Virtually every sandbox has PvP.

For one, you brought up Minecraft, doesnt count. Sure it has some pretty cool multiplayer aspects, but its not really an MMO. Though from what I read its damn close when a server is set up for it. 

SWG did not have open PvP. It was optional. So that one is ruled out.

UO has ONE shard out of a dozen or so that is open PvP. PvP is optional in UO. Shadowbane doesnt exist anymore....

 

  Holophonist

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2122

7/11/13 12:24:42 PM#443
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by madazz
Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.

Er, the opposite is the case.

Minecraft has PvP. Eve has PvP. SWG had PvP. AC has PvP. UO has PvP. Shadowbane had PvP. Virtually every sandbox has PvP.

For one, you brought up Minecraft, doesnt count. Sure it has some pretty cool multiplayer aspects, but its not really an MMO. Though from what I read its damn close when a server is set up for it. 

SWG did not have open PvP. It was optional. So that one is ruled out.

UO has ONE shard out of a dozen or so that is open PvP. PvP is optional in UO. Shadowbane doesnt exist anymore....

 

 

Re-read what was said. The first guy said sandbox games have NO pvp. Then Davis pointed out sandbox games that do have pvp. Then you came in and said they dont have OPEN pvp. They still had pvp. Pvp is an innately sandbox feature. Open pvp even more so. Open pvp with loot even more than that.
  nariusseldon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

7/11/13 12:33:28 PM#444
Originally posted by JeremyBowyer
 

 

Some people are impossible to please. If you like I can claim to know this for a fact. But instead I'm being honest and saying it's "probably" cyclical. And I'm saying that because why wouldn't it be? There is undoubtedly (though some people here have doubted it) a resurgence in sandbox games coming down the pipe... and notice how I said a REsurgence, as in it has happened before. Sandbox games and games that are difficult and unforgiving were more popular before themepark games took over. Now themepark games are falling out of fashion and people are looking for more sandbox games.

 

If you want something more concrete, look at how many sandbox games have been funded by kickstarter. Probably lot more now than a few years ago.

I don't disagree themeparks are falling out of fashion. I just don't agree that people want sandbox. May be they don't even want MMO anymore.

Actually how many sandbox MMO are funded by KS? Tell me. 1, 5, 10? You know that KS funded is not the same as being produced, nor that the end product will be successful, right? There are all sort of odd ball thing being funded on KS. Don't tell me that is where the market is going in every case.

  nariusseldon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

7/11/13 12:34:54 PM#445
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

Actually not even that is clear.  I think what he actually said was "sandbox style" which is even more vague.

Your right though, they would not make it if they did not believe they could make profit from it. 

There is no consensus of what sandbox means anyway.

Smedley is just saying buzzwords to drum up interests.

I will wait and see the detailed design and implementation of EQN before i pass judgment.

  Benedikt

Tipster

Joined: 12/12/04
Posts: 1399

We live for The One, we die for The One.

7/11/13 1:02:05 PM#446
Originally posted by madazz
Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.

you are kidding, right? name me 1 sandbox made in last 10 years that doesnt have PVP.

more than that - at least name me one which doesnt have open pvp.

i can name you the oposite:

xsyon

MO

DF

eve

age of wulin

archage (not sure if it is already out in asia or only in beta)

salem

and i proly forgot some

  Bidwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 560

7/11/13 5:05:16 PM#447

I predict open-world PVP in EverQuest Next: http://youtu.be/bLbCJqaJ1kE =)

  User Deleted
7/11/13 5:17:16 PM#448
Originally posted by Benedikt
Originally posted by madazz
Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.

you are kidding, right? name me 1 sandbox made in last 10 years that doesnt have PVP.

more than that - at least name me one which doesnt have open pvp.

i can name you the oposite:

xsyon

MO

DF

eve

age of wulin

archage (not sure if it is already out in asia or only in beta)

salem

and i proly forgot some

Ryzom

A tale in the desert

The Repopulation ( PVE and PVP servers, will be released late this year or early next)

Fallen Earth  (has PVP zones but those are for guild warfare stuff, you don't lose anything by not going there if you want to experience all that there is in PVE terms)

Wurm Online (PVE only servers)

Citadel of Sorcery (no mention of OW PVP by what I read)

Asheron's Call 1

Starport

Firefall

Needed only one? There are more out there than these.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 16442

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

7/11/13 5:25:54 PM#449
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by jdlamson75
Every themepark out there is primarily based around PvE.  Now the PvE crowd wants dibs on the sandboxes, too.  Want, want, want.  Go raid a dragon lair or something and stay out of my sandbox.  Thank you.

That doesn't make any sense. It's just like arguing there's no need for quality seafood restaurants in a town just because there are already dozens of quality meat serving ones.

I'm sure no theme park player would mind if there were more PvP centric games if in return they also had access to quality more PvE centric sandbox games which aren't mindless gank fests.

It makes just about as much sense as the theme of this thread, which is none at all.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  TheLizardbones

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10959

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/11/13 6:13:07 PM#450


Originally posted by Dihoru

Originally posted by Benedikt

Originally posted by madazz Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.
you are kidding, right? name me 1 sandbox made in last 10 years that doesnt have PVP. more than that - at least name me one which doesnt have open pvp. i can name you the oposite: xsyon MO DF eve age of wulin archage (not sure if it is already out in asia or only in beta) salem and i proly forgot some
Ryzom

A tale in the desert

The Repopulation ( PVE and PVP servers, will be released late this year or early next)

Fallen Earth  (has PVP zones but those are for guild warfare stuff, you don't lose anything by not going there if you want to experience all that there is in PVE terms)

Wurm Online (PVE only servers)

Citadel of Sorcery (no mention of OW PVP by what I read)

Asheron's Call 1

Starport

Firefall

Needed only one? There are more out there than these.




Are those no pvp, period, or no open world/FFA PvP? Because I'm pretty sure it's possible to at least flag yourself for PvP in Fallen Earth and the Repopulation. I just want to be sure I'm reading your post right.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Holophonist

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2122

7/11/13 7:09:45 PM#451
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Dihoru

Originally posted by Benedikt

Originally posted by madazz Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.
you are kidding, right? name me 1 sandbox made in last 10 years that doesnt have PVP. more than that - at least name me one which doesnt have open pvp. i can name you the oposite: xsyon MO DF eve age of wulin archage (not sure if it is already out in asia or only in beta) salem and i proly forgot some
Ryzom

 

A tale in the desert

The Repopulation ( PVE and PVP servers, will be released late this year or early next)

Fallen Earth  (has PVP zones but those are for guild warfare stuff, you don't lose anything by not going there if you want to experience all that there is in PVE terms)

Wurm Online (PVE only servers)

Citadel of Sorcery (no mention of OW PVP by what I read)

Asheron's Call 1

Starport

Firefall

Needed only one? There are more out there than these.




Are those no pvp, period, or no open world/FFA PvP? Because I'm pretty sure it's possible to at least flag yourself for PvP in Fallen Earth and the Repopulation. I just want to be sure I'm reading your post right.

 

He must mean no open world pvp because I can confirm at least some of those games indeed have pvp.

  Benedikt

Tipster

Joined: 12/12/04
Posts: 1399

We live for The One, we die for The One.

7/11/13 7:35:59 PM#452
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Benedikt
Originally posted by madazz
Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.

you are kidding, right? name me 1 sandbox made in last 10 years that doesnt have PVP.

more than that - at least name me one which doesnt have open pvp.

i can name you the oposite:

xsyon

MO

DF

eve

age of wulin

archage (not sure if it is already out in asia or only in beta)

salem

and i proly forgot some

seriously? do we have to go through this again? in 1 thread it was not enough?

Ryzom

i am not sure i would call ryzom a sandbox - you cannt affect the world at all

A tale in the desert

tale in the desert is completely special kind of game, it doesnt have not only pvp, but also not pve, no combat at all

The Repopulation ( PVE and PVP servers, will be released late this year or early next)

not released yet

Fallen Earth  (has PVP zones but those are for guild warfare stuff, you don't lose anything by not going there if you want to experience all that there is in PVE terms)

definitelly not a sandbox

Wurm Online (PVE only servers)

true, but was originally released as ffa pvp game, and still development gives more features to pvp servers

Citadel of Sorcery (no mention of OW PVP by what I read)

not out, and i am not sure if ever will

Asheron's Call 1

didnt play AC1, only AC2, which isnt a sandbox, but i specifically asked for games from last 10 years, which AC1 definitelly isnt

Starport

never heard of this game, but from what i read on their homepage, it is same case as wurm - game made primarily as open pvp game

Firefall

not out yet and it is fps, not an rpg, also not sure if i would call it a sandbox

Needed only one? There are more out there than these.

 

  Nhoj1983

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/08
Posts: 185

7/11/13 9:39:52 PM#453
Here's my take... you can't make a sandbox without making a nodd to pvp.  That said people should be allowed a choice and I think that any game looking to be more than niche needs to make sure that players can avoid pvp if they wish to do so.  There's the easy ways.. basically make pvp/pve servers... thing is when playing these sorts of games you need all types and I see a lot of games going towards single server options and there's the as of yet unfound perfect balance.  I think the answer is there.. and I don't think it's an all out pve sandbox.  It might be that say you could create a guild focused solely on such and such.  Pretty much marking you as neutrals in the game of thrones being bandied about.  Nowadays any game that releases without pvp is considered unfinished.  Look at SWTOR.. and RIFT both games got more than expected demand for pvp and while pve players out number pvp players... there's a lot of pve players that like to pvp here and there.  I don't have an answer but it hits me as a mistake to go back to the days of pve only games and believe it or not telling me I can go play eve (or an ancient game like ultima online)  when I'd rather play something recent is about as helpfull as me telling pve players to just go play minecraft.   There has to be a happy middle ground somewhere and I think some dev  will find it.
  Bidwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 560

7/11/13 9:52:15 PM#454
Originally posted by Nhoj1983
Here's my take... you can't make a sandbox without making a nodd to pvp.  That said people should be allowed a choice and I think that any game looking to be more than niche needs to make sure that players can avoid pvp if they wish to do so.  There's the easy ways.. basically make pvp/pve servers... thing is when playing these sorts of games you need all types and I see a lot of games going towards single server options and there's the as of yet unfound perfect balance.  I think the answer is there.. and I don't think it's an all out pve sandbox.  It might be that say you could create a guild focused solely on such and such.  Pretty much marking you as neutrals in the game of thrones being bandied about.  Nowadays any game that releases without pvp is considered unfinished.  Look at SWTOR.. and RIFT both games got more than expected demand for pvp and while pve players out number pvp players... there's a lot of pve players that like to pvp here and there.  I don't have an answer but it hits me as a mistake to go back to the days of pve only games and believe it or not telling me I can go play eve (or an ancient game like ultima online)  when I'd rather play something recent is about as helpfull as me telling pve players to just go play minecraft.   There has to be a happy middle ground somewhere and I think some dev  will find it.

Some would argue that for a sandbox to be done right, it has to have PVP as an integral pillar of the design of the game that ties into all the other systems like the economy. Having PVP and PVE servers is a sure sign that the PVP is not a pillar, and that turns off a lot of sandbox fans.

  Adalwulff

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Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

7/12/13 1:49:30 AM#455
Originally posted by Bidwood
Originally posted by Nhoj1983
Here's my take... you can't make a sandbox without making a nodd to pvp.  That said people should be allowed a choice and I think that any game looking to be more than niche needs to make sure that players can avoid pvp if they wish to do so.  There's the easy ways.. basically make pvp/pve servers... thing is when playing these sorts of games you need all types and I see a lot of games going towards single server options and there's the as of yet unfound perfect balance.  I think the answer is there.. and I don't think it's an all out pve sandbox.  It might be that say you could create a guild focused solely on such and such.  Pretty much marking you as neutrals in the game of thrones being bandied about.  Nowadays any game that releases without pvp is considered unfinished.  Look at SWTOR.. and RIFT both games got more than expected demand for pvp and while pve players out number pvp players... there's a lot of pve players that like to pvp here and there.  I don't have an answer but it hits me as a mistake to go back to the days of pve only games and believe it or not telling me I can go play eve (or an ancient game like ultima online)  when I'd rather play something recent is about as helpfull as me telling pve players to just go play minecraft.   There has to be a happy middle ground somewhere and I think some dev  will find it.

Some would argue that for a sandbox to be done right, it has to have PVP as an integral pillar of the design of the game that ties into all the other systems like the economy. Having PVP and PVE servers is a sure sign that the PVP is not a pillar, and that turns off a lot of sandbox fans.

 

That's exactly right, its a major turn off.

Not that I am a ganker/griefer, but a game without PvP is like a cake without the frosting.

To have a truly sandbox MMO they must have all elements. Lots of PvP, PvE and other professions,  like shop owners, professional crafters, horse trainers, builders, fisherman....ect...ect

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5596

7/12/13 2:18:13 AM#456

I take the OP's point, but there are nearly always too many MMO's of every type coming out all the time. Sandbox is this years buzz word and you have to stick it in even if the implementation will be minimal at best. PvP, well that's another good one to get in, but I would remind you that having mini games which do not effect anything in the game proper can give a server the PvP label.

Also the OP mentioned a lot of MMO's coming out, who knows if they will be any good? There is room for one MMO to really do a PvP sandbox well and I don't see it out yet. Not counting EvE, I am talking playing a person here, not a spaceship. But without zoned PvP the long term issues will always be there, you need to separate PvE and PvP but by zones, not by mini games.

  thegreatestagain

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/13
Posts: 37

7/12/13 2:21:24 AM#457
asherons call (still the HW champion of MMOs. WoW can be the money mayweather)  had PVE servers, but players there could swear allegiance to Bhael Zharon and become player killers, able to fight each other to the death.  there was also a FFA, all-pk server.  around 6 or 7 npk servers.
  Holophonist

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2122

7/12/13 8:22:38 AM#458
What's with this idea that a game has to appeal to both pvp and non-pvp people? If you have pvp and non-pvp servers, the game is probably bad, if you have designated pvp zones, the game is probably bad, if you have and opt out pvp system, the game is probably bad, if you have instanced pvp, the game is probably bad. And all of this is coming from somebody who wants a good SANDBOX game, so that's what I mean by bad, bad for me.

In other words, I don't think you can please everybody. By definition they want something I don't want. Their deal breakers are my deal makers.

There's simply no way that the idea of ffa pvp in a game with good pve, nation building, deep crafting system etc is so niche that there aren't enough people to support it. Look at how many people in this thread prefer open world pvp?
  TheLizardbones

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Joined: 6/11/08
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I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/12/13 8:31:16 AM#459


Originally posted by JeremyBowyer
What's with this idea that a game has to appeal to both pvp and non-pvp people? If you have pvp and non-pvp servers, the game is probably bad, if you have designated pvp zones, the game is probably bad, if you have and opt out pvp system, the game is probably bad, if you have instanced pvp, the game is probably bad. And all of this is coming from somebody who wants a good SANDBOX game, so that's what I mean by bad, bad for me.In other words, I don't think you can please everybody. By definition they want something I don't want. Their deal breakers are my deal makers.There's simply no way that the idea of ffa pvp in a game with good pve, nation building, deep crafting system etc is so niche that there aren't enough people to support it. Look at how many people in this thread prefer open world pvp?


I would think it's because most people aren't just PvP or just PvE MMORPG players. The people who are only interested in PvP will play PvP games, like League of Legends, DOTA2 or Team Fortress 2. Those games have a pure PvP experience. Even Planetside 2 is a pure PvP experience, but set in a more persistent world. Everyone else wants something different.

You can look at the number of people in this thread but that don't amount to a hill of beans out in the world. We have two hundred people or less posting on these forums every day. There are millions of people playing MMORPG. This one thread doesn't represent anything.

Keep watching ArcheAge as it waters itself down in order to appeal to enough people to survive. They only spent twenty five million dollars. If they don't appeal to the people who want a PvE focused game, or a game that somehow balances PvE and PvP elements, they are going to spiral down the drain just like all the other games that think there's millions to be made in a niche market.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Oziius

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1404

7/12/13 12:17:38 PM#460
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by nerovipus32

A soldier faces no consequences when he kills an enemy soldier.

Any soldier on the field right now would laugh if he was reading this sentence. Including people who've been in the military, like me.

My god.. I nearly shit myself when I read this post before you commented Jean... I agree completely with your comment. I was Security Forces in the Air Force for 8 years. All United States soldiers face severe scrutiny and investigation following engagments with enemy forces. The UCMJ is very clear on rules of engagement. The fact that this statement was made tells me he or she has never been in the U.S Military. I can't comment on other countries military procedures, but there is also the Law of Armed Conflict which deals with both international law and treaties. 

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