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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » We don't need anymore PvP focused sandbox mmos right now.

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677 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

7/10/13 12:40:53 PM#421
Originally posted by DAS1337
 

 

Yes, I do have evidence.  Anyone who has had any prolonged experience on gaming forums can attest to the change in mindset.  Why do you think so many people are tired of games like WoW?  Where do you think the whole WoW clone thing came from?  A ton of people are tired of the same crap that developers continue to dish out.  Why do you think dynamic content has become popular?  Why do you think there is such an outcry to make ESO more like an Elder Scrolls game and less MMO'y with arena combat, pointless raid dungeons, no housing, no customizability and such?  If you've been around, you know things have been changing.

 

Tire of games like WOW does not mean they want sandbox. I can easily say they want MOBAs and instanced pvp games. LoL and WOT is way more successful than any sandbox MMOs.

 

  User Deleted
7/10/13 12:45:45 PM#422
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DAS1337
 

 

Yes, I do have evidence.  Anyone who has had any prolonged experience on gaming forums can attest to the change in mindset.  Why do you think so many people are tired of games like WoW?  Where do you think the whole WoW clone thing came from?  A ton of people are tired of the same crap that developers continue to dish out.  Why do you think dynamic content has become popular?  Why do you think there is such an outcry to make ESO more like an Elder Scrolls game and less MMO'y with arena combat, pointless raid dungeons, no housing, no customizability and such?  If you've been around, you know things have been changing.

 

Tire of games like WOW does not mean they want sandbox. I can easily say they want MOBAs and instanced pvp games. LoL and WOT is way more successful than any sandbox MMOs.

 

Neither of you are correct or wrong for that matter but you need to remember Narius that LoL and WoT have higher burn of players than sandbox MMOs do even if the latter has a smaller playerbase it can be just as profitable ergo you can say that they want something new in whatever form that may be (MOBA, WoT type, survival game like DayZ, Co- Op RPG like Cube World or a form of MMO or another).

  madazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1303

7/10/13 12:46:49 PM#423
Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.
  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2512

7/10/13 12:51:10 PM#424
Originally posted by madazz
Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.

Er, the opposite is the case.

Minecraft has PvP. Eve has PvP. SWG had PvP. AC has PvP. UO has PvP. Shadowbane had PvP. Virtually every sandbox has PvP.

  User Deleted
7/10/13 12:51:43 PM#425
Originally posted by madazz
Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.

Ironic that most sandboxes are also duds, no?

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10550

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

7/10/13 12:53:48 PM#426


Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
@lizardbones

One doesn't need to consider forum posts here. Simply look at what so many MMO Developers are doing and saying with thier upcoming MMO's and not just small indies. "Sandbox" is actualy starting to become a bit of a buzzword with them in terms of style and features. They don't do that sort of thing unless there is at least the perception that there is a decent potential market for it. Now they could be wrong, they certainly have been about other things in the past. However, I'm fairly confident that they have access to better market research tools then most of us here. So while there may not be proof, the folks in charge of millions of dollars of investor money look like they are starting to place thier bets in that direction. I'd say that's at least a fair indicator that something might be there....at least as good a bet as anything with something as fickle and ephemeral to nail down as audience tastes in entertainment.

 




That at least doesn't make my head hurt. It even makes a bit of sense.

Also, I don't dispute the whole sandbox thing. I just don't see "I read internet forums" as proof that a particular point is valid. That type of thing can be used to support anything and is poor form and shouldn't be tolerated.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

7/10/13 12:54:15 PM#427
Originally posted by Dihoru
 

Neither of you are correct or wrong for that matter but you need to remember Narius that LoL and WoT have higher burn of players than sandbox MMOs do even if the latter has a smaller playerbase it can be just as profitable ergo you can say that they want something new in whatever form that may be (MOBA, WoT type, survival game like DayZ, Co- Op RPG like Cube World or a form of MMO or another).

sure .. i didn't list everything. I can throw in online ARPG (D3 sold 14.5M copies ..), shooters with online components (the new "share world" shooter like Destiny).

The point is that getting sick of wow (and themepark MMO) does not equate wanting sandbox. In fact, why return to old ideas? Weren't the market sick of UO & EQ, before it moves to WOW and similar games?

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10550

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

7/10/13 12:54:47 PM#428


Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by madazz Most sandboxes have no PvP. Probably already been mentioned to the OP. But too many pages.
Er, the opposite is the case.

Minecraft has PvP. Eve has PvP. SWG had PvP. AC has PvP. UO has PvP. Shadowbane had PvP. Virtually every sandbox has PvP.




Single player sandboxes don't have PvP! Sner sner!

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2014

7/10/13 2:18:02 PM#429
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by DAS1337
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

1- Devs mindset => The devs with more inclination towards sandbox mmos have a same way of think things that makes they pursuit the maximum of "mechanical realism" in their works. So pvp with artificial and unjustified "invulnerabilities" passes little through their heads. Their focus to prevent abuse is more in creating punishments (trying to imitate the reality) instead of that way.

 

That reason above can explain the sensation of some PVEers  that some pvp focused mmos have more "cool things" (aside pvp, ofc) than your pve focused mmos they are playing. As a example i will mention the AI of the npcs (mobs) in DFUW: It's almost a consensus that DF has the best mob AI of all mmos. And that is paradoxical, since DF is a pvp focused mmo and "shouldn't" invest so much in mobs. But that investment is only a indirect consequence of the devs mindset of trying to make realistic features. I think if the DF developers had the Archeage or even the EVE's budget, they would make a awesome sandbox.

 

 

Anyone who says Darkfall AI is good, is downright ignorant.

 

I've played the game.  The pathfinding is horrible and the mobs constantly rubber band.  Sometimes they won't even attack you.  Other times they will attack you from a mile away while you're standing behind a building or rock.  They don't call for help or attack in groups.  They don't roam random areas.  All they do is run around back and forth a few times, change from ranged to melee when they get close, and spam attack you with an occasional spell that most likely will not increase their chances of killing you.

 ]

Wrong several times over.

Different mobs have different AIs. Zombies can't see during the day but they can hear you. At night they can see you from a mile off. Goblins run back to their camps to get help right away, other mobs do not. Many mobs wander around and roam certain areas, like the dragons, the kraken, and a lot of the high end mobs. The humanoid mobs will strafe and juke and dodge to get out of the way of projectiles. Melee based mobs will try to box you into a corner.

You must not have played any darkfall.

I've played Darkfall (including early beta) and I can only agree with DAS1337. The supposed "superior AI" aventurine was bragging about is definitely not superior at all. All the things you post are supposed to be awesome on paper, but definitely don't work that way in game, except the roaming bosses, but then a ton of games have those and that's no superior AI. PvE in Darkfall is one of the worse I've seen in a MMO, hell, combat was better in the 17+ years old Ultima Online (which at least was a true sandbox).

I think the AI is fine. the ANIMATIONS are kind of dull but that's just cause the whole game leaves something to be desired in the "polish" department. A lot of mobs move in different ways and are really hard to hit (damn grungrocs, I'm looking at you).

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2014

7/10/13 2:32:27 PM#430
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Dihoru
 

Neither of you are correct or wrong for that matter but you need to remember Narius that LoL and WoT have higher burn of players than sandbox MMOs do even if the latter has a smaller playerbase it can be just as profitable ergo you can say that they want something new in whatever form that may be (MOBA, WoT type, survival game like DayZ, Co- Op RPG like Cube World or a form of MMO or another).

sure .. i didn't list everything. I can throw in online ARPG (D3 sold 14.5M copies ..), shooters with online components (the new "share world" shooter like Destiny).

The point is that getting sick of wow (and themepark MMO) does not equate wanting sandbox. In fact, why return to old ideas? Weren't the market sick of UO & EQ, before it moves to WOW and similar games?

 

 

Well the thing is they're kind of opposite ends of the spectrum. There probably isn't going to be an unrelated 3rd type of game to snatch up MMO players. In terms of MMOs you can either have less restrictions or more restrictions, aka themepark or sandbox.

 

So it's probably pretty cyclical. Start out with super sandbox games like UO, people want to have their hands held a little and more quests etc, then as the content runs out for those games, they start to realize that the gameplay is pretty shallow and go back to prefering sandboxes.

 

That or the super low barriers to entry for games like WoW (considering how much it holds your hand through process) may bring a lot of people into the mmo scene and those people may slowly start to want a more organic game. Enter: sandbox games.

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

7/10/13 3:36:07 PM#431

@Narius

Jeremy has it pretty well. Human tastes in things like fashion and entertainment tend to be fairly cyclical. New things always come along but quite often old ones return time and again in popularity, especialy when you are dealing with things that are more conceptual in nature.

Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists.

"Sandbox" is a basic concept or style in games. It seems like it's poised to come back into fashion again.....at least that seems to be the perception among alot of Dev's. It's doubtfull that it will look exactly the same as the old sandboxes but like so many other things, as a basic concept, it has legs.

 

  the420kid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/19/05
Posts: 417

7/10/13 3:41:52 PM#432
its pretty obvious, we dont need any PVE games you carebears have world of warcraft no1 does pve raid content better than they do.  the PvP centric genre is still up for grabs.  Mind you I am loving DFUW right now but I do look forward to eqnext espoecialy if pvp is the focus but we dont actualy know yet we need more info about the game and I believe we will get that aug 2nd
  User Deleted
7/10/13 3:48:21 PM#433
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

@Narius

Jeremy has it pretty well. Human tastes in things like fashion and entertainment tend to be fairly cyclical. New things always come along but quite often old ones return time and again in popularity, especialy when you are dealing with things that are more conceptual in nature.

Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists.

"Sandbox" is a basic concept or style in games. It seems like it's poised to come back into fashion again.....at least that seems to be the perception among alot of Dev's. It's doubtfull that it will look exactly the same as the old sandboxes but like so many other things, as a basic concept, it has legs.

 

Pretty sure it's pointless to argue with him, he's always right regardless how wrong he is (he compared EVE-Online to Star Wars The Old Republic and called EVE a worse failure than it based on age alone regardless of IP clout, developer clout, market campaign and the sheer cult following of the jedi within the Star Wars universe... ffs there's even a Jedi Church nowadays).

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10550

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

7/10/13 4:22:59 PM#434


Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
@Narius

Jeremy has it pretty well. Human tastes in things like fashion and entertainment tend to be fairly cyclical. New things always come along but quite often old ones return time and again in popularity, especialy when you are dealing with things that are more conceptual in nature.

Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists.

"Sandbox" is a basic concept or style in games. It seems like it's poised to come back into fashion again.....at least that seems to be the perception among alot of Dev's. It's doubtfull that it will look exactly the same as the old sandboxes but like so many other things, as a basic concept, it has legs.

 




In any event, in the context of this discussion, it's not that relevant. One of the few, clear statements that's been made about EQN is that it will be a sandbox. Now, exactly what that means is anyone's guess, but it will be a sandbox. SOE is a AAA developer and EQ is a AAA property. SOE wouldn't spend the money on Smedley's insanity if they didn't think it wouldn't return them some money. More so than any other sandbox game running, EQN will be the proof of concept for sandbox MMORPGs.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

7/10/13 4:40:48 PM#435
Originally posted by JeremyBowyer

So it's probably pretty cyclical. Start out with super sandbox games like UO, people want to have their hands held a little and more quests etc, then as the content runs out for those games, they start to realize that the gameplay is pretty shallow and go back to prefering sandboxes.

 

Probably? How do you know that? How do you it is not like locked room mystery that never makes a come back?

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

7/10/13 4:42:00 PM#436
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists.

 

 

And i would say you are cherry picking your example. There are plenty of stuff not coming back (yet).

- locked room mystery

- radio drama

- text adventures

... the list goes on and on ....

There is no proof one way or another.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2014

7/10/13 4:52:19 PM#437
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by JeremyBowyer

So it's probably pretty cyclical. Start out with super sandbox games like UO, people want to have their hands held a little and more quests etc, then as the content runs out for those games, they start to realize that the gameplay is pretty shallow and go back to prefering sandboxes.

 

Probably? How do you know that? How do you it is not like locked room mystery that never makes a come back?

 

 

Some people are impossible to please. If you like I can claim to know this for a fact. But instead I'm being honest and saying it's "probably" cyclical. And I'm saying that because why wouldn't it be? There is undoubtedly (though some people here have doubted it) a resurgence in sandbox games coming down the pipe... and notice how I said a REsurgence, as in it has happened before. Sandbox games and games that are difficult and unforgiving were more popular before themepark games took over. Now themepark games are falling out of fashion and people are looking for more sandbox games.

 

If you want something more concrete, look at how many sandbox games have been funded by kickstarter. Probably lot more now than a few years ago.

  Rossboss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 241

7/10/13 4:55:05 PM#438

What we need is quality games, not more of anything. We need games that are actually fun to play and tell us we don't have to pay for things but we do because we love the game so much. We need to be driven by games that make us want to play them, not through flashy effects or instant action or any of this nonsense.

 

The reason why some games just stick in our heads as being the best game ever or the standard you hold up all upcoming games to is mostly based on the Quantity VS. Quality discussion.

You cannot argue with the quantity of games being released now to say 10 years ago has grown exponentially. This is based on the fact that gaming is now known as a business. All you need is the right tools, development kits, money, and a good set of developers to set up an MMORPG as you want it to be. It's quite literally made it to the point where game companies probably make more money than we could ever dream of having. However, if you look at the history of games, the past has been more about making something you dream of and making money is something you achieve when you reach a certain level of success.

MMORPGs are now streamlined, optimized and perfected for profit instead of having open-minds, a solid idea and finding the right people to get the job done. Businesses like Aeria, Gameforge, Zynga, and Others have taken the model and serialized it to the point where nobody even sees the games for what they really are. MMORPGs are business propositions, success is based on how many people buy things before they leave the game meaning the exit point for users is literally calculated and anticipated, instead of being works of art, where there is a fragile balance of making the masses happy by keeping them coming back for more and attaining your goal. It used to be about innovating instead of seeing what little innovation you can get away without the buyers noticing.

 

PvP and PvE should be irrelevant to the success of a game. The overall game should make people want to play it and spend money of their own free will.

I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/10/13 6:01:44 PM#439
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
@Narius

 

Jeremy has it pretty well. Human tastes in things like fashion and entertainment tend to be fairly cyclical. New things always come along but quite often old ones return time and again in popularity, especialy when you are dealing with things that are more conceptual in nature.

Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists.

"Sandbox" is a basic concept or style in games. It seems like it's poised to come back into fashion again.....at least that seems to be the perception among alot of Dev's. It's doubtfull that it will look exactly the same as the old sandboxes but like so many other things, as a basic concept, it has legs.

 




In any event, in the context of this discussion, it's not that relevant. One of the few, clear statements that's been made about EQN is that it will be a sandbox. Now, exactly what that means is anyone's guess, but it will be a sandbox. SOE is a AAA developer and EQ is a AAA property. SOE wouldn't spend the money on Smedley's insanity if they didn't think it wouldn't return them some money. More so than any other sandbox game running, EQN will be the proof of concept for sandbox MMORPGs.

 

Actually not even that is clear.  I think what he actually said was "sandbox style" which is even more vague.

Your right though, they would not make it if they did not believe they could make profit from it. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10550

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

7/10/13 7:12:51 PM#440


Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 @Narius   Jeremy has it pretty well. Human tastes in things like fashion and entertainment tend to be fairly cyclical. New things always come along but quite often old ones return time and again in popularity, especialy when you are dealing with things that are more conceptual in nature. Look at the bicycle for example. A little more then a century ago it was all the rage. Then for a long time it fell out of favor and was really only considered something for kids. Fast forward to today and it's become relatively popular for adults again. It's not exactly the same bikes as back then and not used in exactly the same way, but as a basic concept it persists. "Sandbox" is a basic concept or style in games. It seems like it's poised to come back into fashion again.....at least that seems to be the perception among alot of Dev's. It's doubtfull that it will look exactly the same as the old sandboxes but like so many other things, as a basic concept, it has legs.  
In any event, in the context of this discussion, it's not that relevant. One of the few, clear statements that's been made about EQN is that it will be a sandbox. Now, exactly what that means is anyone's guess, but it will be a sandbox. SOE is a AAA developer and EQ is a AAA property. SOE wouldn't spend the money on Smedley's insanity if they didn't think it wouldn't return them some money. More so than any other sandbox game running, EQN will be the proof of concept for sandbox MMORPGs.  
Actually not even that is clear.  I think what he actually said was "sandbox style" which is even more vague.

Your right though, they would not make it if they did not believe they could make profit from it. 




SMEEEEEDLEEEEEEEEEY!


For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

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