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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » We don't need anymore PvP focused sandbox mmos right now.

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677 posts found
  DAS1337

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

7/08/13 12:13:56 PM#61

It's funny.  I remember all of the debates over how we don't need sandboxes, because every single one fails.  It's a dying niche in MMO's, it has poor systems, a bad community, blah blah blah.  Now it seems that more and more, people are warming up to the idea of the sandbox genre, praising some of their systems, talking about how great the RP community can be, blah blah.

 

It just goes to show you that what they say is true.  The vast majority of gamers have no clue as to what they want.  

 

I've been preaching it from the day that I registered on this website.  A PvE focused sandbox, with the ability to progress without combat.  A strict PvP system that severely punishes people who abuse it, making it possible, but at times, incredibly difficult.  Complete player crafted items, no phat epic loot from boss mobs.  Open world, open dungeons, no instances and very limited fast travel by appropriately skilled casters.  Open housing, limited to certain sections of the world as to not have complete open placement, limiting abuse and latency issues.  Oceans that you can explore, not just sail a boat on.  Deep player customization and a focus on development to create systems that work with each other and keep the innocent players as safe as possible.

 

And what have we gotten?  PvP focused games with phat loot.  Crap housing, if it's even in the game.  Weak customization, or way over the top customization like Mortal Online's generation and breeding system.  Games that force you to level up to craft better items, and you can only level up by fighting.  A sever lack of protection to innocent players, as if they could care less.  Instanced dungeons, no housing or extremely limited housing and zero focus on systems that work well with each other.  It's true, it makes you wonder, how many times developers are going to go into sandbox projects with the idea that all gamers, or even most gamers are mindless drones that want to pew pew pew without any thought.  And actually think that it's a successful development model.  

 

Yet, game after game, that same model fails to attract what it should attract if they just pulled their heads out of their asses. You're right, it really doesn't make sense.  It just goes to show you, these developers may have experience in their field and they may have knowledge and skills on how to create games, but they are no more intelligent than any of us.  Their ability to make good decisions is no more advanced than any of us.  

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10550

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

7/08/13 12:16:16 PM#62


Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Originally posted by Waterlily If they promote this game as a PVP game, it's dead out of the gate. PVE players outnumber PVP players tenfold.
Some players like both, what category do they fall into? Good job at making up statistics though.
 He was being kind, its more like a thousand fold.  And this isn't make believe numbers.  There's no rationale human who can look at the MMO landscape and believe that PvP players outnumber PvE players.  Sure there are both but the genre is the, will always be the, loved by the: PvE crowd



It's hardly official, but at least for people on this site, it breaks down like so:

http://www.mmorpg.com/features.cfm/view/polls
Which is more important in an MMO, PvE or PvP?
Opened: 02/19/2009
Respondents: 15,484
Status: Open

PvP - 5.7%
PvE - 14.8%
PvP focus with a little PvE - 10.5%
PvE focus with a little PvP - 34.8%
Equal Parts PvE and PvP - 34.2%



So the "pure" PvE people are nearly triple the numbers of the purely PvP people. The PvE focused people and the equal parts PvP/PvE peole dwarf everyone else though.

I would be interested in a new poll on this same subject.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 483

7/08/13 12:19:01 PM#63
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I love PvP. I hate being forced into it before I'm ready. A soldier isn't sent on the battlefield before he gets some serious training either.

There is NO valid reason to force PvP on everyone (...)

A soldier isn't send to battle without training, nevertheless that soldier can be attacked in his street, house or barracks. :(

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

7/08/13 12:19:01 PM#64
Originally posted by DAS1337

It's funny.  I remember all of the debates over how we don't need sandboxes, because every single one fails.  It's a dying niche in MMO's, it has poor systems, a bad community, blah blah blah.  Now it seems that more and more, people are warming up to the idea of the sandbox genre, praising some of their systems, talking about how great the RP community can be, blah blah.

Is that in your imagination, or you have evidence for that statement?

Some posts here do not count. What is the big sandbox success? And don't say minecraft, because it is a buidling game, not so much a RPG.

  Tryken

Ultima Online Correspondent

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 63

Some editors are failed writers, but so are most writers. - T.S. Eliot

7/08/13 12:26:13 PM#65

I'll actually agree with you on this. I don't think there needs to be anymore PvP focused sandbox MMOs. With that said, I think good sandbox MMOs should have PvP. Does that make sense? The mark of a good sandbox is that it favors all types of exploration, whether it be to the crafter, the community organizer, the solo player, the group-focused player, the PvE player, and the PvP player.

That's where Ultima shines. You don't feel like a certain aspect of the game is shoved down your throat. In a lot of the newer, PvP-centric games, PvP feels like this very dominating part of the gameplay. And although I'm going to get hate for this, I think both EVE Online and Felucca/Trammel solve these issues.

"Felucca/Trammel!? You're mad!" Well, hold on there. There are many good reasons to go to Felucca. Some of the best mining and loot possible is only found in that PvP-open zone. So it's a high-risk high-reward area. Even as a relatively PvE player in UO, I still traveled to Felucca often (and fought there often with other players) because of the rewards. It led to some great, tense gameplay. Lastly, I think insurance fixes the problem, too. Ultima and EVE both contain insurance on items. Ultima's insurance allows for you to respawn with your insured item, while EVE simply has a pay-out (ala realistic insurance). So that's my second solution to a sandbox with open PvP: Some kind of insurance.

My wife will not play a game where she can die and lose everything because some jerk wanted to troll her, and everywhere is fair game for them to kill her. I'm not a fan of that, either. I don't think every time she walks out of town she should have to think she's going to get stabbed and have everything taken off her body, and neither does she. At the same time, I do want there to be open PvP, especially in certain areas that contain high rewards.

It's a tricky business, but I don't think we need anymore of the hardcore, PvP-centered sandbox games. I'm not saying it shouldn't be part of new sandbox games, I just don't want it completely shoved down my throat constantly.

  Tampownz

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/12
Posts: 3

7/08/13 12:28:03 PM#66

Years ago MMORPG's in general were a niche Market....look at us now Bro B)

 

As a pvp player myself, I don't mind...considering most of those games actually aren't that good in terms of keeping people interested in the long run which is a major flaw for an mmo

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 483

7/08/13 12:29:52 PM#67
Originally posted by Benedikt

FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all

i would like to have the "freedom" to dont be shooted by robbers, dont be harmed by car crashes and to float at will...

 

 

I think you guys have a weird interpretation of the word "freedom".

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

7/08/13 12:32:08 PM#68
Originally posted by Tryken

 

That's where Ultima shines. You don't feel like a certain aspect of the game is shoved down your throat. In a lot of the newer, PvP-centric games, PvP feels like this very dominating part of the gameplay. And although I'm going to get hate for this, I think both EVE Online and Felucca/Trammel solve these issues.

Tell that to the newbies who got ganked the second they logged onto the game.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

7/08/13 12:33:31 PM#69
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Benedikt

FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all

i would like to have the "freedom" to dont be shooted by robbers, dont be harmed by car crashes and to float at will...


 

The freedom of not pvp at all is a lot cheaper to provide than what you want .. and a free market almost guarantee that demand will be filled.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10550

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

7/08/13 12:34:39 PM#70


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by DAS1337 It's funny.  I remember all of the debates over how we don't need sandboxes, because every single one fails.  It's a dying niche in MMO's, it has poor systems, a bad community, blah blah blah.  Now it seems that more and more, people are warming up to the idea of the sandbox genre, praising some of their systems, talking about how great the RP community can be, blah blah.
Is that in your imagination, or you have evidence for that statement?

Some posts here do not count. What is the big sandbox success? And don't say minecraft, because it is a buidling game, not so much a RPG.




I don't think anyone was ever really cold on the idea of sandboxes in general. I think mostly people just didn't like the available quality, and were turned off by the reliance on FFA PvP for the games to make things happen.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Torik

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2323

7/08/13 12:40:51 PM#71
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Benedikt

FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all

i would like to have the "freedom" to dont be shooted by robbers, dont be harmed by car crashes and to float at will...

 

 

I think you guys have a weird interpretation of the word "freedom".

 

 

 

There must be hundreds of games where you are not harmed by car crashes and/or you can float at will.  The "not be shot by robbers" part is harder to find examples for since this is one thing most games tend to model more or less realistically if it is part of the game.   Once you realize that you are coding a game, it is easy to put in plenty of "freedoms" that are not available in RL.

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 483

7/08/13 12:41:51 PM#72
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Benedikt

FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all

i would like to have the "freedom" to dont be shooted by robbers, dont be harmed by car crashes and to float at will...


 

The freedom of not pvp at all is a lot cheaper to provide than what you want .. and a free market almost guarantee that demand will be filled.

It's because sandboxes dont usually comes with less amount of realistic mechanics, but with more. And these cuts aren't usually called "freedom", but restrictions/limitations.

A pure semantic question here. 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 483

7/08/13 12:43:57 PM#73
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Benedikt

FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all

i would like to have the "freedom" to dont be shooted by robbers, dont be harmed by car crashes and to float at will...

 

 

I think you guys have a weird interpretation of the word "freedom".

 

 

 

There must be hundreds of games where you are not harmed by car crashes and/or you can float at will.  The "not be shot by robbers" part is harder to find examples for since this is one thing most games tend to model more or less realistically if it is part of the game.   Once you realize that you are coding a game, it is easy to put in plenty of "freedoms" that are not available in RL.

These games aren't real or intended "sandboxes". I was talking only about sandboxes mmos.

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

7/08/13 12:45:39 PM#74
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Benedikt

FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all

i would like to have the "freedom" to dont be shooted by robbers, dont be harmed by car crashes and to float at will...

 

 

I think you guys have a weird interpretation of the word "freedom".

 

 

 

There must be hundreds of games where you are not harmed by car crashes and/or you can float at will.  The "not be shot by robbers" part is harder to find examples for since this is one thing most games tend to model more or less realistically if it is part of the game.   Once you realize that you are coding a game, it is easy to put in plenty of "freedoms" that are not available in RL.

These games aren't real or intended "sandboxes". I was talking only about sandboxes mmos.

 

 

In that case, you are saying sandbox MMOs take freedom away from players. Why is that a good thing?

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 483

7/08/13 12:51:06 PM#75
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Benedikt

FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all

i would like to have the "freedom" to dont be shooted by robbers, dont be harmed by car crashes and to float at will...

 

 

I think you guys have a weird interpretation of the word "freedom".

 

 

 

There must be hundreds of games where you are not harmed by car crashes and/or you can float at will.  The "not be shot by robbers" part is harder to find examples for since this is one thing most games tend to model more or less realistically if it is part of the game.   Once you realize that you are coding a game, it is easy to put in plenty of "freedoms" that are not available in RL.

These games aren't real or intended "sandboxes". I was talking only about sandboxes mmos.

 

 

In that case, you are saying sandbox MMOs take freedom away from players. Why is that a good thing?

These things aren't "freedom".

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  User Deleted
7/08/13 1:01:44 PM#76
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Benedikt

FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all

i would like to have the "freedom" to dont be shooted by robbers, dont be harmed by car crashes and to float at will...

 

 

I think you guys have a weird interpretation of the word "freedom".

 

 

 

There must be hundreds of games where you are not harmed by car crashes and/or you can float at will.  The "not be shot by robbers" part is harder to find examples for since this is one thing most games tend to model more or less realistically if it is part of the game.   Once you realize that you are coding a game, it is easy to put in plenty of "freedoms" that are not available in RL.

These games aren't real or intended "sandboxes". I was talking only about sandboxes mmos.

 

 

In that case, you are saying sandbox MMOs take freedom away from players. Why is that a good thing?

These things aren't "freedom".

 

 

Wasn't there a MMO already with the freedom to be against reality ? like CoH.

  Tryken

Ultima Online Correspondent

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 63

Some editors are failed writers, but so are most writers. - T.S. Eliot

7/08/13 1:07:11 PM#77
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Tryken

 

That's where Ultima shines. You don't feel like a certain aspect of the game is shoved down your throat. In a lot of the newer, PvP-centric games, PvP feels like this very dominating part of the gameplay. And although I'm going to get hate for this, I think both EVE Online and Felucca/Trammel solve these issues.

Tell that to the newbies who got ganked the second they logged onto the game.

Ahoy. If you read down my post you'll see I'm talking about post Trammel/Felucca (the two mirror worlds where one is PvP open and the other is not). New players start in Haven.

You're talking about before that, in which case, you'd be spot on.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

7/08/13 1:10:05 PM#78
There are already many games I am not playing.  It does not matter to me if there are a few more that I am not playing.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

7/08/13 1:12:51 PM#79
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Benedikt

FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all

i would like to have the "freedom" to dont be shooted by robbers, dont be harmed by car crashes and to float at will...

 

 

I think you guys have a weird interpretation of the word "freedom".

 

 

 

There must be hundreds of games where you are not harmed by car crashes and/or you can float at will.  The "not be shot by robbers" part is harder to find examples for since this is one thing most games tend to model more or less realistically if it is part of the game.   Once you realize that you are coding a game, it is easy to put in plenty of "freedoms" that are not available in RL.

These games aren't real or intended "sandboxes". I was talking only about sandboxes mmos.

 

 

In that case, you are saying sandbox MMOs take freedom away from players. Why is that a good thing?

These things aren't "freedom".

 

 

Choices are not freedom?

Let's be specific and not play the semantic game. why is taking the choice of pvp away from the players a good thing?

  Benedikt

Tipster

Joined: 12/12/04
Posts: 1311

We live for The One, we die for The One.

7/08/13 1:31:03 PM#80
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Benedikt

FREEDOM of choice = having a choice to not PVP at all

i would like to have the "freedom" to dont be shooted by robbers, dont be harmed by car crashes and to float at will...

 

I think you guys have a weird interpretation of the word "freedom".

freedom of choice was direct quotation from the post i was quoting

 

do you think that your choice to attack me should trumph my choice of not pvp?

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