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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » PVP MMO are flawed.

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118 posts found
  CalmOceans

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1807

 
OP  7/07/13 3:52:40 PM#1

PVE MMO and servers are vastly more popular than PVP ones are.

If an open world PVP game is truly PVP, it means that 50% of the playerbase will get the short end of the stick, since they will statistically lose more fights than they will win them. At least part of this playerbase will end up leaving the game, which results in new players now becoming part of that 50% loser pool, which results in even more people leaving. Griefing probably just accelerates this process.

The way PVP works is flawed from the start, it divides the playerbase into losers and winners, which means it can never sustain itself.

Discuss.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1000

7/07/13 4:44:27 PM#2
Originally posted by CalmOceans

PVE MMO and servers are vastly more popular than PVP ones are.

If an open world PVP game is truly PVP, it means that 50% of the playerbase will get the short end of the stick, since they will statistically lose more fights than they will win them. At least part of this playerbase will end up leaving the game, which results in new players now becoming part of that 50% loser pool, which results in even more people leaving. Griefing probably just accelerates this process.

The way PVP works is flawed from the start, it divides the playerbase into losers and winners, which means it can never sustain itself.

Discuss.

The problem is that most developers don't have the balls to reign in PvP without killing PvP.   They don't design it in mind. 

 

Random PvP can not be an easy or most profitable lifestyle.  

  terroni

Novice Member

Joined: 4/03/10
Posts: 941

7/07/13 4:48:03 PM#3
Most games in general have winners and losers. The trick is to make playing the game enjoyable.

Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.

  BrucyBonus

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 224

7/07/13 4:48:49 PM#4
It is flawed because it allows another player to directly dictate how you play the game.  Most players want to choose how and when they partake in activities.  
  Vapors

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/10
Posts: 393

7/07/13 4:52:44 PM#5
Originally posted by CalmOceans

PVE MMO and servers are vastly more popular than PVP ones are.

If an open world PVP game is truly PVP, it means that 50% of the playerbase will get the short end of the stick, since they will statistically lose more fights than they will win them. At least part of this playerbase will end up leaving the game, which results in new players now becoming part of that 50% loser pool, which results in even more people leaving. Griefing probably just accelerates this process.

The way PVP works is flawed from the start, it divides the playerbase into losers and winners, which means it can never sustain itself.

Discuss.

thats sadly true, pvp servers nowadays are like for a completly niche group of players... Even the pvp is fun in some games, players go often the way to avoid it, the only game I've seen which was diffrent is warhammer online. But pvp was a basic thing there and there was no chance to avoid it luckily.

Since developers know that pvp is currently just a niche they will always focus 90% on PVE...

  Quazal.A

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/10/13
Posts: 418

7/07/13 4:54:14 PM#6

Whilst i do agree with your outcome your maths is wrong

 

Just because each fight has 2 outcomes (lets assume no draw possible) Win / Lose this doesn't meant that 50% of players will be on winning side.

you have 11 players lets say they all fight 1, then the outcome could quite easily be each player wins 5 and loses 5 fights (11 players = 10 fights each)

so in that instance every player is either winner or loser (or no player wins or loses overall)

 

Just because outcome of each fight is 50/50 doesn't mean that 50% of the population will be winners, but you will get a small % of players at top of pool of winners and a high % of players at bottom end of the % winners.

most players will probably end up in the 50/50 (+/- 2.5%) win ratio if they fight say 1000+ fights

This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game :) were of course your welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  Aldous.Huxley

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/13
Posts: 443

7/07/13 4:55:10 PM#7

I never minded losing in PvP.

It doesn't hurt, I promise.

  Marcus-

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/28/06
Posts: 968

7/07/13 5:14:37 PM#8

I typically get more excitement from losing a pvp fight, than I get killing any type of NPC.

 

/shrug

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17024

7/07/13 5:18:03 PM#9
Originally posted by CalmOceans

PVE MMO and servers are vastly more popular than PVP ones are.

If an open world PVP game is truly PVP, it means that 50% of the playerbase will get the short end of the stick, since they will statistically lose more fights than they will win them. At least part of this playerbase will end up leaving the game, which results in new players now becoming part of that 50% loser pool, which results in even more people leaving. Griefing probably just accelerates this process.

The way PVP works is flawed from the start, it divides the playerbase into losers and winners, which means it can never sustain itself.

Discuss.

1, aren't you assuming that the same people will always win and always lose? Isn't more the truth that most people will both win and lose?

2, so what if there are winners and losers? You don't want to lose? play well. You want to keep winning? Learn to adapt, change and continually play well.

3, you assume that people playing on a pvp server or in a pvp game are "not ok" with pvp or losing.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17024

7/07/13 5:21:17 PM#10
Originally posted by Marcus-

I typically get more excitement from losing a pvp fight, than I get killing any type of NPC.

 

/shrug

that might be true but remember that there are people who don't care about "excitement" or "adrenaline rushes" of pvp and pve for more storied reasons.

It's not about the same thing.

So your excitement about person vs person combat is great but does not transfer to people who are not looking for the same type of experience.

  Marcus-

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/28/06
Posts: 968

7/07/13 5:27:17 PM#11
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Marcus-

I typically get more excitement from losing a pvp fight, than I get killing any type of NPC.

 

/shrug

that might be true but remember that there are people who don't care about "excitement" or "adrenaline rushes" of pvp and pve for more storied reasons.

It's not about the same thing.

So your excitement about person vs person combat is great but does not transfer to people who are not looking for the same type of experience.

I didn't assume it did.

 

My point was, just because people lose in a pvp fight, doesn't mean they will automatically quite. Do I win more than I lose? No idea, and to be honest I don't care, its still fun (for me). The OP seems to think that just because people lose, they will quit.

 

For me, there not a lot of fun in winning, if I never lose.

 

It gets dull.

 

/shrug

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17024

7/07/13 5:29:13 PM#12
Originally posted by Marcus-
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Marcus-

I typically get more excitement from losing a pvp fight, than I get killing any type of NPC.

 

/shrug

that might be true but remember that there are people who don't care about "excitement" or "adrenaline rushes" of pvp and pve for more storied reasons.

It's not about the same thing.

So your excitement about person vs person combat is great but does not transfer to people who are not looking for the same type of experience.

I didn't assume it did.

 

My point was, just because people lose in a pvp fight, doesn't mean they will automatically quite. Do I win more than I lose? No idea, and to be honest I don't care, its still fun (for me). The OP seems to think that just because people lose, they will quit.

 

For me, there not a lot of fun in winning, if I never lose.

 

It gets dull.

 

/shrug

Ah I understand better, thanks for the clarification and it's the same as my stance. good point.

  Vynxe_Vainglory

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/13
Posts: 21

7/07/13 5:33:21 PM#13
Planetside 2.
  Shadanwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1868

7/07/13 5:33:35 PM#14

The smart developers....THE SMART ONES

-have pve only areas

--have faction vs faction fighting areas(not ffa pvp, but where you are part of a group/faction and fight together with others ).This fighting area is persistent with control lost only when another faction wrests it from the hands of another faction.

DAOC is the best example of superior faction conflict game.GW2 is an example of what a superficial understanding of DAOC's systems will get you.

11 years and still going as a subscription game despite incredibly poor management decisions

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2743

7/07/13 5:37:25 PM#15
The OP and quite a few of the posters forget that the only old guard MMO currently still growing in popularity and looks likely to outlive WoW (which is the seminal PVE MMO nowadays) is EVE-Online, a game which is based on PVP on all possible levels. Enjoy justifying your biases.

  CalmOceans

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1807

 
OP  7/07/13 5:38:27 PM#16
Originally posted by Dihoru
The OP and quite a few of the posters forget that the only old guard MMO currently still growing in popularity and looks likely to outlive WoW (which is the seminal PVE MMO nowadays) is EVE-Online, a game which is based on PVP on all possible levels. Enjoy justifying your biases.

I heard that the majority of EVE players do not participate in PVP.

Apparently no one felt the need to explain this to non-EVE players.

Since EVE is always heralded as the epitome of a PVP MMO, it's pretty important to mention that the majority of the playerbase doesn't PVP in EVE.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7050

7/07/13 5:41:42 PM#17
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Dihoru
The OP and quite a few of the posters forget that the only old guard MMO currently still growing in popularity and looks likely to outlive WoW (which is the seminal PVE MMO nowadays) is EVE-Online, a game which is based on PVP on all possible levels. Enjoy justifying your biases.

I heard that the majority of EVE players do not participate in PVP.

Wushu has more players than WoW, and yes a lot of people do not participate in PvP, even though it's a FFA pvp  world.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/07/13 5:47:11 PM#18

OP is wrong on several levels:

  • World PVP is casual.  There are more than 50% winners, because the game doesn't enforce an even 50/50 team split.
  • Because it's casual, it's relatively popular (though surprisingly a lot less popular than the more hardcore, truly competitive PVP games out there like RTS, FPS, and MOBAs.)  If enough people want a game to justify the cost to make it, it's not flawed.
  • PVP games fundamentally sustain more cheaply than PVE games.  This is because PVE relies on a developer to create new content, while PVP is automatically player-generated content.
  • PVP MMOs can be focused on skillful competition (Planetside 1), and it works great!  I'd love to see more games like PS1.  (Tragically PS2 involves an awful lot of vertical progression, which prevented me from sticking with it.)
I personally have no interest in the type of casual PVP found in MMOs (I only play PVP games focused on player skill,) but to call them "flawed" or imply they shouldn't ever be made is just flat-out wrong.  They're a valid niche product.
  Ramanadjinn

Elite Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1296

7/07/13 5:50:12 PM#19
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Dihoru
The OP and quite a few of the posters forget that the only old guard MMO currently still growing in popularity and looks likely to outlive WoW (which is the seminal PVE MMO nowadays) is EVE-Online, a game which is based on PVP on all possible levels. Enjoy justifying your biases.

I heard that the majority of EVE players do not participate in PVP.

Apparently no one felt the need to explain this to non-EVE players.

Since EVE is always heralded as the epitome of a PVP MMO, it's pretty important to mention that the majority of the playerbase doesn't PVP in EVE.

 

This information you have heard and are now repeating is most likely untrue.  At least by the definition of "participate" you would probably want to use to support your original theory.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1440

7/07/13 5:50:14 PM#20
Originally posted by CalmOceans

PVE MMO and servers are vastly more popular than PVP ones are.

If an open world PVP game is truly PVP, it means that 50% of the playerbase will get the short end of the stick, since they will statistically lose more fights than they will win them. At least part of this playerbase will end up leaving the game, which results in new players now becoming part of that 50% loser pool, which results in even more people leaving. Griefing probably just accelerates this process.

The way PVP works is flawed from the start, it divides the playerbase into losers and winners, which means it can never sustain itself.

Discuss.

Yeap. And therefore the most popular online games of all time are CS, BF Series, LoL, DoTA and so on. You are absolutly right. They must be all stupid and totally brain dead. 50 millions + players have to be wrong.

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