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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 

General Discussion  » Anyone else find the combat lacking?

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107 posts found
  Kabdaiban

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/12
Posts: 5

7/06/13 10:24:46 PM#61

Again comparing FF14 to WoW and the amount of abilities contained in WoW vs what a class gets in FF14 is not going to work for the main fact that just because a class has nearly 30 abilities at 50 does not mean the average player uses all of those abilities. I stopped playing WoW during CATA my lvl 85 Fury/Prot war had about 35ish abilities of which I never used more than 7 of them for the hi end dps rotation. A lvl 20 Warrior in WoW has 10-15ish abilities vs a lvl 15 Gladiator having 7( 2 buffs, 1 Threat gen, 3 attacks, a health regen) depending on the fights I'm in I can end up using all 7 vs that lvl 20 WoW warrior only using 2-4 abilities max. More abilities does not make combat better it's how they're implemented. STO has only 2 buttons to hit for space combat to set all weapons to fire at once, what makes that combat immersive is how one sets up ones ship for what shields take the most damage and what skills one uses from the crew to keep shields and structure together, so 2 buttons to start combat and 5 more to possibly use during combat depending on target and class of ship or amount of ships. FF14 may be a bit slower paced but honestly I am finding that a bit refreshing, since it gives time to learn what that creature type is apt to do in combat making later fights with that same creature type easier despite added abilities and movement on the monster types part.

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3374

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

7/06/13 10:25:03 PM#62
Originally posted by jabhamano
Originally posted by Laughing-man

Ok, so you don't like FFXIV because it has tab targeting.  (I love TERA, played 3 toons to level cap, fun game)  This game is tab target, and if you don't like that type of game then I completely understand why you don't like FFXIV.

 

I dont say that i dont like target-lock system. Its good only when there is some aspect of player skill with it.

When you have tons of skills like in WoW or in Aion then you can either suck at your class, or be good at it by controlling it to its fullest potential. I played Aion for really long time so i cant say that i dont like target-lock. I like it only when its well made.

Tera has few skills just like ff14, but at least its free target game, so human-skill factor goes to your extremely important timing and positioning. Even if you can find some similar skills from free-target game in target-lock game, you cant deny fact that solo killing single elite/bam in tera is way more difficult than every single combat aspect of ff14 combined all together.

Soloing a BAM in TERA is pretty fun, it's a lot like playing Devil May Cry, or Vindictus.  They are completely different types of skill.
 This is like comparing tennis to chess.  Reaction time is not equal to the same type of skill that strategic planning is.

I agree that there is skill involved in both.

I just think that just because they are different types of skills doesn't mean they are not equal in level of skill required in their respective skill area.

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 4100

7/06/13 10:26:10 PM#63
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by simsalabim77

 

I don't think it's very compelling at all. I think it's probably one of the most boring combat systems I've ever experienced. 

Your comparison with XIV and WoW is not fair at all since your comparing a mmo with raised level cap after several expansion to something thats only about to be released.  You gotta compare it to vanilla WoW when the cap was 60 and mid level was a level 30 character.

 

In case of double post, I apologize. 

 

Comparing Vanilla WoW to ARR would not be a fair comparison either as the designers of ARR will have had nearly a decade worth of examples to look at while the designers of Vanilla WoW did not have nearly the amount of experience, technology, and games to study for inspiration. I expect ARR to have 2013 combat mechanics. Not combat mechanics from 2004. 

Whats 2013 combat mechanics lol, your whole statement is such a weak argument.

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3374

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

7/06/13 10:28:43 PM#64
Originally posted by Impulse47
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by simsalabim77

In case of double post, I apologize. 

 

Comparing Vanilla WoW to ARR would not be a fair comparison either as the designers of ARR will have had nearly a decade worth of examples to look at while the designers of Vanilla WoW did not have nearly the amount of experience, technology, and games to study for inspiration. I expect ARR to have 2013 combat mechanics. Not combat mechanics from 2004. 

Combat mechanics from 2013?  Like monsters having moves with big red circles you have to run out of, like how WoW, TERA, and Neverwinter do?  Yep ARR has that.

There are quite a few 'advanced' fight mechanics to behold in this game, go watch the Ifrit fight that they did at E3, they streamed it for all to watch, very rarely did a group kill it, and that is the 'baby' level 20 version.

 

That's interesting that you would mention the Ifrit fight that way.  As a fellow TERA player, I didn't think that fight compared even to the very first Basilisk or Naga encounter.  I know you like when people quantify their reasoning, and I will tell you in advance that I cannot.  It just seemed a bit boring compared to our (pre-patch) BAMs.

Yeah, to a skilled gamer I would hope the 'baby' ifrit fight was easy.  The developers themselves call it the 'baby' fight.  Did you notice how many casual gamers at E3 beat it?  A hand full.

I agree it is easier than soloing frost giants at level 60 pre nerf in TERA, because again, its supposed to be easier than that.

I also wanted to again state they are different 'types' of skills, having great reaction time and split second strategic thinking is one type of game, there are others.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

7/06/13 10:29:02 PM#65
Originally posted by jabhamano
you cant deny fact that solo killing single elite/bam in tera is way more difficult than every single combat aspect of ff14 combined all together.

I havent played enough FFXIV to have a qualified opinion on this.  however, maximizing my dps in WoW or EQ2 is *significantly* more difficult than soloing a BAM in TERA.  In fact, every game i can think of probably has more difficult soloing of group content than a TERA BAM.  BAM soloing is learning the mob tells and not screwing up.  Its usually not about knowing your class inside and out.

  simsalabim77

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/13
Posts: 613

7/06/13 10:33:01 PM#66
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by simsalabim77

I don't think it's very compelling at all. I think it's probably one of the most boring combat systems I've ever experienced. 

What did you find boring about it?

The GCD being too long?

You don't like tab targeting any more?

I'm just wondering, its hard to have a discussion when the only things given to discuss are 'I think its boring'

 

 

The GCD does feel way too long to me. I don' t need almost 3 seconds between abilities. I don't think very many people actually do unless they're playing one handed while a cat blocks the monitor or something. It feels extremely sluggish.   I agree, the GCD is too long for my taste too, I hope they shorten it to 2 or 1.5 seconds.

It is mechanically uninteresting to me. For instance, it lacks interesting interplay between skills IMO. There aren't very many skill resets, or counters to care about, DOT clipping, buff duration, buff potency etc. There aren't any "clutch" skills like BOP, LOH, throwing a powerful offheal to save a wipe etc. It pretty much boils down to pressing the few buttons that do the most damage while pre-buffing before your most damaging skill. White mage gets Benediction, its very much like Lay on Hands but for the entire party, it can get you killed though as it pulls a lot of threat. There is dot clipping, there are even some dots you can stack, for instance Aero 1 and Aero 2 put separate dots on the target.  Buff duration is much like WoW, most of them last 30 minutes.  Buff's do get more potent if you have more of the right stat for the buff spell / ability.  You CAN off heal as a lot of classes, but not as a lot of jobs.

I'd like to see way more situation skills that you found you never used on your Pally like some of the Hands or macroing on a shield, using RF and taunting a raid boss at 1% after the main tank died. There's just no skills in ARR that make me think, "How can I use this in an interesting way?"  Paladin has several interrupts and stuns, they have reactionary tanking cool downs.  A lot of jobs have skills that are reaction based, stuns, interrupts, debuffs of a wide variety.  Black mage for instance gets a spell much like 'intervene' for WoW's warrior.  Pretty cool ability that can be used to save yourself and avoid dying.

 

Now, please don't mistake this as me saying the game is bad, as I enjoy nearly every aspect besides the combat.  I don't think its bad either, I agree the combat could use some work, though I do think some of the issues are solved at higher level.

 

 

There are small differences in examples like Benediction versus LoH that make an impact on gameplay IMO. You can't just cast LoH when people are low and save a wipe. You need to be able to prioritize who needs it the most, if your target has Forbearance, would it be better to BoP to get rid of a debuff instead of LoH, etc.  With Bene you just press that shit when the group gets low or you're about to lose the tank. You don't even have to go to the trouble of targeting anyone. It also has an obscenely long cooldown, so it's not exactly like it's something you need to think about very often. 

When I say buffs and DOTs, I mean buffs interacting in interesting ways with DOTs i.e. Affliction Warlocks. DOTs do not dynamically scale, so if you cast or refresh a DOT with a lower scaled DOT then you lose out on a lot of damage. Buffs like Slice n Dice, Savage Roar, RNG trinket procs, etc. There's just a whole lot more behind combat mechanics in WoW than there are in ARR so far. 

I'm not saying that the game has a complete lack of interesting skills, but I do find that it is a bit lacking in comparison to what I expect from an MMO in 2013. 

  jabhamano

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/13
Posts: 18

7/06/13 10:33:28 PM#67

maybe WoW isnt good example of target-lock game with lots of abilities because it became way too easy in general. 

in most games players are defined by three factors : Gears > Class > player skills ,

If game combat system is easy and plain to control, then players will be defined only by those two : Gears > Class. 

And thats where FF14 remains for now. 

 

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3374

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

7/06/13 10:36:49 PM#68
Originally posted by simsalabim77

 

There are small differences in examples like Benediction versus LoH that make an impact on gameplay IMO. You can't just cast LoH when people are low and save a wipe. You need to be able to prioritize who needs it the most, if your target has Forbearance, would it be better to BoP to get rid of a debuff instead of LoH, etc.  With Bene you just press that shit when the group gets low or you're about to lose the tank. You don't even have to go to the trouble of targeting anyone. It also has an obscenely long cooldown, so it's not exactly like it's something you need to think about very often. 

When I say buffs and DOTs, I mean buffs interacting in interesting ways with DOTs i.e. Affliction Warlocks. DOTs do not dynamically scale, so if you cast or refresh a DOT with a lower scaled DOT then you lose out on a lot of damage. Buffs like Slice n Dice, Savage Roar, RNG trinket procs, etc. There's just a whole lot more behind combat mechanics in WoW than there are in ARR so far. 

I'm not saying that the game has a complete lack of interesting skills, but I do find that it is a bit lacking in comparison to what I expect from an MMO in 2013. 

I agree that it doesn't quite have the level of synergy or interaction that WoW's combat system has evolved over its 8+  year life span, but I mean this combat system has been scrapped twice already, it is only about a year old if that... So I mean we have to expect that it will start to weave more and more intricate abilities that create layers of game play for the DPS once they get the time to create a solid foundation, which is what they are in the process of doing now.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

7/06/13 10:38:00 PM#69
Originally posted by jabhamano

maybe WoW isnt good example of target-lock game with lots of abilities because it became way too easy in general. 

 

The gap between a skilled WoW player and an average one is very big.  Most of the content is easy enough for the average players, but that doesnt mean that there isnt a very large skill component to mastering your class in WoW.

  simsalabim77

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/13
Posts: 613

7/06/13 10:42:39 PM#70
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by simsalabim77

 

There are small differences in examples like Benediction versus LoH that make an impact on gameplay IMO. You can't just cast LoH when people are low and save a wipe. You need to be able to prioritize who needs it the most, if your target has Forbearance, would it be better to BoP to get rid of a debuff instead of LoH, etc.  With Bene you just press that shit when the group gets low or you're about to lose the tank. You don't even have to go to the trouble of targeting anyone. It also has an obscenely long cooldown, so it's not exactly like it's something you need to think about very often. 

When I say buffs and DOTs, I mean buffs interacting in interesting ways with DOTs i.e. Affliction Warlocks. DOTs do not dynamically scale, so if you cast or refresh a DOT with a lower scaled DOT then you lose out on a lot of damage. Buffs like Slice n Dice, Savage Roar, RNG trinket procs, etc. There's just a whole lot more behind combat mechanics in WoW than there are in ARR so far. 

I'm not saying that the game has a complete lack of interesting skills, but I do find that it is a bit lacking in comparison to what I expect from an MMO in 2013. 

I agree that it doesn't quite have the level of synergy or interaction that WoW's combat system has evolved over its 8+  year life span, but I mean this combat system has been scrapped twice already, it is only about a year old if that... So I mean we have to expect that it will start to weave more and more intricate abilities that create layers of game play for the DPS once they get the time to create a solid foundation, which is what they are in the process of doing now.

 

I'm sure given time it will improve, but for now I find it a bit lacking. Still though, I will pay a sub for the art and music if nothing else. 

  free2play

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1795

7/06/13 10:42:42 PM#71

It's the same with all class based combat. You are either dd, tank or heals. Because they balance around each class, the actions you can carry over to other classes are under powered. Add to that your kills are usually getting you .5% of level exper, it's an obvious quest objective. Even Boss kills don't net you more than 1% or 2% of level in exper. All the exper is controlled at the quest turn in.

 

tldr: there is no combat. There is quests. All Quests.

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3374

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

7/06/13 10:47:54 PM#72
Originally posted by free2play

It's the same with all class based combat. You are either dd, tank or heals. Because they balance around each class, the actions you can carry over to other classes are under powered. Add to that your kills are usually getting you .5% of level exper, it's an obvious quest objective. Even Boss kills don't net you more than 1% or 2% of level in exper. All the exper is controlled at the quest turn in.

 

tldr: there is no combat. There is quests. All Quests.

That is simply untrue, there are very limited number of quests.  This game is actually very party based, and involves no small amount of choice when it comes to how you level.

However, that being said, you cannot just quest grind to level cap, that is impossible.

Quests in this game are there to tell you the story of the game, the beef of the game is elsewhere.

  MagikrorriM

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/14/10
Posts: 168

7/06/13 11:37:03 PM#73
Originally posted by Laughing-man
Originally posted by free2play

It's the same with all class based combat. You are either dd, tank or heals. Because they balance around each class, the actions you can carry over to other classes are under powered. Add to that your kills are usually getting you .5% of level exper, it's an obvious quest objective. Even Boss kills don't net you more than 1% or 2% of level in exper. All the exper is controlled at the quest turn in.

 

tldr: there is no combat. There is quests. All Quests.

That is simply untrue, there are very limited number of quests.  This game is actually very party based, and involves no small amount of choice when it comes to how you level.

However, that being said, you cannot just quest grind to level cap, that is impossible.

Quests in this game are there to tell you the story of the game, the beef of the game is elsewhere.

In PvE there are many paths to level 50, and you WILL be subjected to having to walk each path. Easy mode stops at 20. There is no straight grinding to 50, too much too much to do. All it takes is doing the grand company hunting log, to make you realize this.

@ The op there is nothing wrong with the combat, every player at level 50 will tell you this, 1-20 is easy mode, and combat. does get better the minute you add haste in your gear (skill and spell speed). Too many lvl 10 judges, ready to take a crack at the easy mode of the game.

  nennafir

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 224

7/06/13 11:58:57 PM#74

To the OP:  Yes, the combat is boring and lame.  Anyone arguing otherwise is living in a dream land.  It is not only tab target based, but there are hardly any skills to choose from.  Boredom city.

 

I still plan on subscribing for a bit, but to be honest I am not hopeful.  I think they aimed too conservatively on design goals, and will end up with WoW with an FF-skin, and a somewhat boring one at that.

 

I really hope I am wrong, and that it is an exciting game, but fear I am not...  I have been a player of both version 1.0 and ARR in alpha stages.  Sigh.  It is not my fault, honest...

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3374

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

7/07/13 12:01:34 AM#75
Originally posted by nennafir

To the OP:  Yes, the combat is boring and lame.  Anyone arguing otherwise is living in a dream land.  It is not only tab target based, but there are hardly any skills to choose from.  Boredom city.

 

I still plan on subscribing for a bit, but to be honest I am not hopeful.  I think they aimed too conservatively on design goals, and will end up with WoW with an FF-skin, and a somewhat boring one at that.

 

I really hope I am wrong, and that it is an exciting game, but fear I am not...  I have been a player of both version 1.0 and ARR in alpha stages.  Sigh.  It is not my fault, honest...

So if anyone disagrees with you then they are in a dream world?

I see. Tab target does not = lame or boring, nor does limited skill choice. 

Sounds like somebody misses 1.0.  If 1.0 was so good they wouldn't have had to entirely re do the game several times since then.  They made a way better game this time around. 

If you disagree with me, that's your right.

  IfrianMMO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/12
Posts: 212

7/07/13 12:29:13 AM#76

I see it this way:

 

Is the combat system lacking at this point?

Yes, it is.

Not as terribly as some players pretend, but it needs to be worked on somewhat

 

Does it get better as you level up and reach the cap?

It indeed does,  but it should not take so long for a combat system to become meaningful considering it is a big part of the game and players should not be expected to spend weeks to actually begin to have fun with it.

And this is something that should be worked on before launch, let us not forget that this is the "reboot" of a game that already tanked once so customers are not going to be as patient as they may be for other games.

 

 

 

 

 

 

  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

7/07/13 12:42:15 AM#77


Originally posted by Impulse47

Originally posted by skyexile  

Originally posted by Impulse47 First and foremost, I am an oldschool Final Fantasy nerd.  When I heard the prologue music for this game I nearly burst into actual tears of nostalgia.  I -want- to like and play this game.  That being said, recently I have played TERA, Guild Wars 2, and DCUO, to name a few MMOs.  So I've rolled an Archer in FF14, and it is by far the most bland combat I've experienced in years.  It feels like a huge step backwards from other modern titles.  Is there really no active dodging?  I can shoot an arrow through a crowd of mobs and it will hit my tabbed target way in the back?  Combat so far is peg target and kite in circles mashing 1 and occasionally other skills.  Does combat ever get better, or even compare to these other games?
  If GW2, Tera and DCUO combat is so good, why arnt you playing them?
Do you actually care to hear my reasons, or was this rhetorical?  I assure you in each case, it had nothing to do with the respective combat systems.

Figured as much, yea at the end of the day content isnt what makes a good MMO, content and community is....will this have it? well, that remains to be seen.

SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3425

7/07/13 1:36:45 AM#78
Im getting a little sick of twitch combat. I like classes working together as a unit over who can dodge the right way fastest. IMO this does not bring skill to combat. Class skills and planing when attacks work best with what your teammates are doing really is the best combat IMO. Its real teaming, not he died so he must have sucked. Thats all GW2 twitch has given us.
  Draemos

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/10
Posts: 1459

7/07/13 1:45:59 AM#79
Yes, the combat in FF XIV sucks and anyone pretending otherwise is a rabid fanboi.  It's not even a matter of opinion, nobody could possibly have taste that piss poor; you'd have to be willfully pretending (or fooling yourself) otherwise, kinda like pretending like you like the taste of dirt.
  simsalabim77

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/13
Posts: 613

7/07/13 2:02:57 AM#80
Originally posted by Draemos
Yes, the combat in FF XIV sucks and anyone pretending otherwise is a rabid fanboi.  It's not even a matter of opinion, nobody could possibly have taste that piss poor; you'd have to be willfully pretending (or fooling yourself) otherwise, kinda like pretending like you like the taste of dirt.

 

I'm sure you're trolling, but I'm also sure there exists a person who enjoys the taste of dirt. 

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