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EVE Online

EVE Online 

Jita (General)  » Is Eve pay to win?

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139 posts found
  XxGrimmxX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 245

7/04/13 2:55:43 PM#61
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Let me put a spin on the OP's question and ask it from a different light.

If as a brand new player to EVE, I were to pay 1 subscription and spend nothing more. No PLEX, no 2nd accounts, no nothing. But was committed to doing everything within reason to build myself up within the game. Taking full advantage of all the opportunities I can, How much of a disadvantage will I still be at? How long will I be underpowered respective to the general playerbase and what is the significance of the time gap that I can never bridge from the veteran players?

It will be several months but good news! Just spend a little bit of money and you can buy a decked out character. LOL

Yeah, but assuming, I don't do that. But rather play through.

I have read that it's one of the MMOs where you should have multiple accounts to get the fullest.  It's probably the biggest deterrent for me trying EVE. I played AO and it's another one of those "exploitation" gamse. By that I mean Funcom does everything they can to get you to need multiple accounts or now, to use the cash shop.  In EVE, what would be the percentage of the Vets who only play on one account?

% of the veterans that use just one account? Probably extremely EXTREMELY low. The reason they get multiple accounts is to maximize the efficiency. It's hard to be a pvper and a miner at the same time if you want to do it in a reasonable amount of time. It's pretty easy to get enough ISK to get PLEX for your multiple accounts once you reach the higher levels of missioning.

  Quazal.A

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/13
Posts: 420

7/04/13 2:56:51 PM#62
Originally posted by Fendel84M

I always hear Eve being hailed as the shining beacon of subscription MMO hope. But, I looked into this plex thing...

Is it true I can just buy all the Plex I want with my credit card and then sell it in game to become crazy rich? That seems at least somewhat pay to win...they are basically being their own gold sellers.

Now

I cannot comment on your personal wealth but to be classed "crazy rich" in eve your in the trillions of isk and when each GTC -= 1.2bill (roughly) that is roughly 1000 GTC to be even the ball park of rich in eve

so 1000 x $35 :) so about an average yearly wage would put you in the top 1/2% of wealth

As a side note, the biggest every (known) heist was in this ballpark area, about 1.2trilion isk worth of money and assets were stolen - so you can gain wealth with just a bit of graft and cunning...

Theft For WIN!!!

 

Whilst yes you can in theory buy wealth, the cost of a plex in game is about 560mill (you get 2 plex from 1 gtc which is what you buy) you can see the value of the item is comparitavlly low compared to wealth

 

To buy a good toon your talking in the region of 20bill (to covber new ships and the toon itself) so again about 800$.. please see my other post on this same thing

Unlike any other game (maybe TSW) because of the time based skill progression you CANNOT (imo) buy the win!.. Also given EvE has no WIN - Think bosses / big bad guys etc - Then there is no win, what my version of 'winning' in eve will be dfifferent from probably most of the other players

This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game :) were of course your welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  XxGrimmxX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 245

7/04/13 2:57:12 PM#63
Originally posted by Attend4455
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Attend4455
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
First we must define the definition of Pay to Win. Some say it's the ability to buy items that are superior than those provided in the game and the only way to get them is from real currency. Some say being able to spend money to get top tier gear/ships/equipment etc without having to put in the time to get it yourself is pay to win. Personally I think EVE is pay to win to a slight degree. Saying that you have to put months in to train your skills doesn't detract from the fact that you can essentially buy any ship you want. If WoW released a shop that allowed you to buy all the best gear would you not call that pay to win? "NO of course not, you have to spend A LOT of time grinding up to level 90, then you have to learn how to properly PvP...etc etc" I think you see my point. Player skill, or game knowledge has nothing to do with if a game is pay to win. Is EVE pay to win? People with money to blow certainly do have an advantage, you can't deny that.

Umm...you seem to think you can just by a ship and that means you win.    Sure a player with a lot of ISK can buy any ship they want - but what good is that ship if you can't even pilot it?   You just wasted ISK on a ship you cannot fly.   And no..people with money have no advantage - zero.     I know people in game that made all their ISK running missions - billions of ISK.    They actually buy Plex for game time.   

There is no golden Ammo in EVE - none.    There is no ship you cannot easily buy if you run a few missions.   Yes there are people that buy Plex for ISK - because they don't like anything not related to Pew Pew against other players.    That is there choice if that is how they wish to get their ISK - it doesn't give them any advantage whatsoever - at all - zero.

And can't you buy characters? Can't I essentially just buy a really decked out character, buy a really OP decked out ship, etc? Psh.. no advantage whatsoever to someone who doesn't spend money on the game at all... /thread

you could yes but you would just lose it. Look at e.g. PvE vs PvP

PvE you buy a character that can fly a blinged out mach and run lvl4 missions, you die to the first elite frig because you don't know how L4 missions work, how traversal works, etc Worse, you get mission ninja'ed and get podded in your elite clone because you don't understand aggression, Crimewatch etc

PvP, it just gets worse, you can be a maxed out sub cap pilot with every ship and weapon skill there is and you will die to the first guy that comes along in an attack frig.

0/10

While true it really has no bearing on the discussion.

au contraire my friend, the subject is "Is Eve pay to win?", my answer is, No it isn't and I pointed out the flaws in your argument.

Player skill has no affect on whether a game is pay to win or not.

  Attend4455

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/13
Posts: 166

7/04/13 3:00:03 PM#64
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Attend4455
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Attend4455
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
First we must define the definition of Pay to Win. Some say it's the ability to buy items that are superior than those provided in the game and the only way to get them is from real currency. Some say being able to spend money to get top tier gear/ships/equipment etc without having to put in the time to get it yourself is pay to win. Personally I think EVE is pay to win to a slight degree. Saying that you have to put months in to train your skills doesn't detract from the fact that you can essentially buy any ship you want. If WoW released a shop that allowed you to buy all the best gear would you not call that pay to win? "NO of course not, you have to spend A LOT of time grinding up to level 90, then you have to learn how to properly PvP...etc etc" I think you see my point. Player skill, or game knowledge has nothing to do with if a game is pay to win. Is EVE pay to win? People with money to blow certainly do have an advantage, you can't deny that.

Umm...you seem to think you can just by a ship and that means you win.    Sure a player with a lot of ISK can buy any ship they want - but what good is that ship if you can't even pilot it?   You just wasted ISK on a ship you cannot fly.   And no..people with money have no advantage - zero.     I know people in game that made all their ISK running missions - billions of ISK.    They actually buy Plex for game time.   

There is no golden Ammo in EVE - none.    There is no ship you cannot easily buy if you run a few missions.   Yes there are people that buy Plex for ISK - because they don't like anything not related to Pew Pew against other players.    That is there choice if that is how they wish to get their ISK - it doesn't give them any advantage whatsoever - at all - zero.

And can't you buy characters? Can't I essentially just buy a really decked out character, buy a really OP decked out ship, etc? Psh.. no advantage whatsoever to someone who doesn't spend money on the game at all... /thread

you could yes but you would just lose it. Look at e.g. PvE vs PvP

PvE you buy a character that can fly a blinged out mach and run lvl4 missions, you die to the first elite frig because you don't know how L4 missions work, how traversal works, etc Worse, you get mission ninja'ed and get podded in your elite clone because you don't understand aggression, Crimewatch etc

PvP, it just gets worse, you can be a maxed out sub cap pilot with every ship and weapon skill there is and you will die to the first guy that comes along in an attack frig.

0/10

While true it really has no bearing on the discussion.

au contraire my friend, the subject is "Is Eve pay to win?", my answer is, No it isn't and I pointed out the flaws in your argument.

Player skill has no affect on whether a game is pay to win or not.

Nice strawman but your point was "And can't you buy characters?" I replied, yes, but it won't help you.

I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone

  Karahandras

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/08
Posts: 1667

All it takes for evil to succeed is for the good to stand by and do nothing

7/04/13 3:02:40 PM#65
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Let me put a spin on the OP's question and ask it from a different light.

If as a brand new player to EVE, I were to pay 1 subscription and spend nothing more. No PLEX, no 2nd accounts, no nothing. But was committed to doing everything within reason to build myself up within the game. Taking full advantage of all the opportunities I can, How much of a disadvantage will I still be at? How long will I be underpowered respective to the general playerbase and what is the significance of the time gap that I can never bridge from the veteran players?

It will be several months but good news! Just spend a little bit of money and you can buy a decked out character. LOL

Yeah, but assuming, I don't do that. But rather play through.

I have read that it's one of the MMOs where you should have multiple accounts to get the fullest.  It's probably the biggest deterrent for me trying EVE. I played AO and it's another one of those "exploitation" gamse. By that I mean Funcom does everything they can to get you to need multiple accounts or now, to use the cash shop.  In EVE, what would be the percentage of the Vets who only play on one account?

It's been released (byccp)only 20%(give or take) of the eve playerbase has more than one account(is that going to be any more/less than other mmo's?) so ignore that.

I only played a few months and even I knwo you won't be at any disadvantage, unless you intend to go one on one with a long term vet(aslong as they know what they are doing).  PVP is mostly group based and almost from the beginning you'll have a place there and frigs are easy to replace.  For the non pvp stuff it's unlikely you'll be competing with people well into the game(they're unlikely to bother making ammo etc)

Only real diadvangate at the beginning is as others have said in that you won't have as much disposable isk, but that's not a big deal.

  XxGrimmxX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 245

7/04/13 3:07:26 PM#66
Originally posted by Attend4455
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Attend4455
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Attend4455
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
First we must define the definition of Pay to Win. Some say it's the ability to buy items that are superior than those provided in the game and the only way to get them is from real currency. Some say being able to spend money to get top tier gear/ships/equipment etc without having to put in the time to get it yourself is pay to win. Personally I think EVE is pay to win to a slight degree. Saying that you have to put months in to train your skills doesn't detract from the fact that you can essentially buy any ship you want. If WoW released a shop that allowed you to buy all the best gear would you not call that pay to win? "NO of course not, you have to spend A LOT of time grinding up to level 90, then you have to learn how to properly PvP...etc etc" I think you see my point. Player skill, or game knowledge has nothing to do with if a game is pay to win. Is EVE pay to win? People with money to blow certainly do have an advantage, you can't deny that.

Umm...you seem to think you can just by a ship and that means you win.    Sure a player with a lot of ISK can buy any ship they want - but what good is that ship if you can't even pilot it?   You just wasted ISK on a ship you cannot fly.   And no..people with money have no advantage - zero.     I know people in game that made all their ISK running missions - billions of ISK.    They actually buy Plex for game time.   

There is no golden Ammo in EVE - none.    There is no ship you cannot easily buy if you run a few missions.   Yes there are people that buy Plex for ISK - because they don't like anything not related to Pew Pew against other players.    That is there choice if that is how they wish to get their ISK - it doesn't give them any advantage whatsoever - at all - zero.

And can't you buy characters? Can't I essentially just buy a really decked out character, buy a really OP decked out ship, etc? Psh.. no advantage whatsoever to someone who doesn't spend money on the game at all... /thread

you could yes but you would just lose it. Look at e.g. PvE vs PvP

PvE you buy a character that can fly a blinged out mach and run lvl4 missions, you die to the first elite frig because you don't know how L4 missions work, how traversal works, etc Worse, you get mission ninja'ed and get podded in your elite clone because you don't understand aggression, Crimewatch etc

PvP, it just gets worse, you can be a maxed out sub cap pilot with every ship and weapon skill there is and you will die to the first guy that comes along in an attack frig.

0/10

While true it really has no bearing on the discussion.

au contraire my friend, the subject is "Is Eve pay to win?", my answer is, No it isn't and I pointed out the flaws in your argument.

Player skill has no affect on whether a game is pay to win or not.

Nice strawman but your point was "And can't you buy characters?" I replied, yes, but it won't help you.

You can't assume that the person buying the character is completely new to the game.

  Teala

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 7433

"Really officer, they're herbs."

7/04/13 3:08:16 PM#67
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
First we must define the definition of Pay to Win. Some say it's the ability to buy items that are superior than those provided in the game and the only way to get them is from real currency. Some say being able to spend money to get top tier gear/ships/equipment etc without having to put in the time to get it yourself is pay to win. Personally I think EVE is pay to win to a slight degree. Saying that you have to put months in to train your skills doesn't detract from the fact that you can essentially buy any ship you want. If WoW released a shop that allowed you to buy all the best gear would you not call that pay to win? "NO of course not, you have to spend A LOT of time grinding up to level 90, then you have to learn how to properly PvP...etc etc" I think you see my point. Player skill, or game knowledge has nothing to do with if a game is pay to win. Is EVE pay to win? People with money to blow certainly do have an advantage, you can't deny that.

Umm...you seem to think you can just by a ship and that means you win.    Sure a player with a lot of ISK can buy any ship they want - but what good is that ship if you can't even pilot it?   You just wasted ISK on a ship you cannot fly.   And no..people with money have no advantage - zero.     I know people in game that made all their ISK running missions - billions of ISK.    They actually buy Plex for game time.   

There is no golden Ammo in EVE - none.    There is no ship you cannot easily buy if you run a few missions.   Yes there are people that buy Plex for ISK - because they don't like anything not related to Pew Pew against other players.    That is there choice if that is how they wish to get their ISK - it doesn't give them any advantage whatsoever - at all - zero.

And can't you buy characters? Can't I essentially just buy a really decked out character, buy a really OP decked out ship, etc? Psh.. no advantage whatsoever to someone who doesn't spend money on the game at all... /thread

Go ahead and buy a character - still doesn't mean you know WTF you are doing...   /thread

  XxGrimmxX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 245

7/04/13 3:10:12 PM#68
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
First we must define the definition of Pay to Win. Some say it's the ability to buy items that are superior than those provided in the game and the only way to get them is from real currency. Some say being able to spend money to get top tier gear/ships/equipment etc without having to put in the time to get it yourself is pay to win. Personally I think EVE is pay to win to a slight degree. Saying that you have to put months in to train your skills doesn't detract from the fact that you can essentially buy any ship you want. If WoW released a shop that allowed you to buy all the best gear would you not call that pay to win? "NO of course not, you have to spend A LOT of time grinding up to level 90, then you have to learn how to properly PvP...etc etc" I think you see my point. Player skill, or game knowledge has nothing to do with if a game is pay to win. Is EVE pay to win? People with money to blow certainly do have an advantage, you can't deny that.

Umm...you seem to think you can just by a ship and that means you win.    Sure a player with a lot of ISK can buy any ship they want - but what good is that ship if you can't even pilot it?   You just wasted ISK on a ship you cannot fly.   And no..people with money have no advantage - zero.     I know people in game that made all their ISK running missions - billions of ISK.    They actually buy Plex for game time.   

There is no golden Ammo in EVE - none.    There is no ship you cannot easily buy if you run a few missions.   Yes there are people that buy Plex for ISK - because they don't like anything not related to Pew Pew against other players.    That is there choice if that is how they wish to get their ISK - it doesn't give them any advantage whatsoever - at all - zero.

And can't you buy characters? Can't I essentially just buy a really decked out character, buy a really OP decked out ship, etc? Psh.. no advantage whatsoever to someone who doesn't spend money on the game at all... /thread

Go ahead and buy a character - still doesn't mean you know WTF you are doing...   /thread

Player skill does not determine if a game is pay to win or not. Why do you assume that only people who don't know what they're doing will buy characters?

  Sheista

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/30/05
Posts: 1204

7/04/13 3:12:32 PM#69
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Attend4455
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Attend4455
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
First we must define the definition of Pay to Win. Some say it's the ability to buy items that are superior than those provided in the game and the only way to get them is from real currency. Some say being able to spend money to get top tier gear/ships/equipment etc without having to put in the time to get it yourself is pay to win. Personally I think EVE is pay to win to a slight degree. Saying that you have to put months in to train your skills doesn't detract from the fact that you can essentially buy any ship you want. If WoW released a shop that allowed you to buy all the best gear would you not call that pay to win? "NO of course not, you have to spend A LOT of time grinding up to level 90, then you have to learn how to properly PvP...etc etc" I think you see my point. Player skill, or game knowledge has nothing to do with if a game is pay to win. Is EVE pay to win? People with money to blow certainly do have an advantage, you can't deny that.

Umm...you seem to think you can just by a ship and that means you win.    Sure a player with a lot of ISK can buy any ship they want - but what good is that ship if you can't even pilot it?   You just wasted ISK on a ship you cannot fly.   And no..people with money have no advantage - zero.     I know people in game that made all their ISK running missions - billions of ISK.    They actually buy Plex for game time.   

There is no golden Ammo in EVE - none.    There is no ship you cannot easily buy if you run a few missions.   Yes there are people that buy Plex for ISK - because they don't like anything not related to Pew Pew against other players.    That is there choice if that is how they wish to get their ISK - it doesn't give them any advantage whatsoever - at all - zero.

And can't you buy characters? Can't I essentially just buy a really decked out character, buy a really OP decked out ship, etc? Psh.. no advantage whatsoever to someone who doesn't spend money on the game at all... /thread

you could yes but you would just lose it. Look at e.g. PvE vs PvP

PvE you buy a character that can fly a blinged out mach and run lvl4 missions, you die to the first elite frig because you don't know how L4 missions work, how traversal works, etc Worse, you get mission ninja'ed and get podded in your elite clone because you don't understand aggression, Crimewatch etc

PvP, it just gets worse, you can be a maxed out sub cap pilot with every ship and weapon skill there is and you will die to the first guy that comes along in an attack frig.

0/10

While true it really has no bearing on the discussion.

au contraire my friend, the subject is "Is Eve pay to win?", my answer is, No it isn't and I pointed out the flaws in your argument.

Player skill has no affect on whether a game is pay to win or not.

Player Skill and knowledge has a lot to do with winning, so yes it does.  The absolute point of this entire argument is that purchasing ISK only gives you a faux-advantage over other players.  Because the base of the game revolves around character training, and knowledge of the game executed in the form of tactics during a fight.  Purchasing ISK only allows you to buy the items used to fight.  None of those items are unable to be purchased by other players and in fact cost other players just the same.  If you purchase a character, so what?  You don't know how to use any of that character's skills, any of his ships.  The way combat works in EVE, there is no I-win fit.  No single ship or group of ships that dominates.  That's what you're missing about this whole argument.  None of the purchasable items are unpurchasable by other players.  All PLEX does is remove some of the time/waiting game for players.  It does not give advantage in combat, because that player would have those items regardless.  He would just have less of them.

 

Pay-2-win implies being able to purchase items that other players can not acquire by playing the game.  Taking away some time required to gain an item is not 'paying to win'.  If I sell a plex, get some ISK, buy some ships and fittings, that money is coming from somewhere and was created by in-game means.  That ISK came from another player, who gained that ISK by competing in the game.  The money CAME from the game.  It wasn't created out of thin air for the sole purpose of going to a PLEX seller. 

All a plex is, is a consumable item worth a large amount of in-game money.  It's not permanently adding anything to the game.  In fact, it strengthens the value of ISK by being usable, and carryable like any other item in-game.  It's price in fact, is based on the normal rules of the market.  Supply and demand.

Meaning that in the universe, the value of PLEX changes constantly.  That money is practically a permanent fixture in the game for the past however many years PLEX have been available in their current form.  It's been a constant piece of the game's economy, a MONITORED piece of the game's economy.

TL;DR - PLEX only gives you ISK.  It does not allow you to purchase items that other players cannot purchase.  Therefore, by market definition of pay-2-win, it is not.  Pay-2-win cash shops are where you are able to buy a good item that other players don't have access to, or an item that your character shouldn't be able to use.  IE; special items that bypass skill/level requirements as I've seen in some cash shop games.

The reality of EVE is this - Spend your thousands of real life dollars on whatever you want.  I don't care.  It'll just be that much sweeter for me to blow up when it becomes obvious that you don't know how to use any of it.  Nothing you have is anything I won't come up against from people who don't sell PLEX.  It's not special.  It's just like everyone else's shiny things.  It goes boom just the same as everything else.  Then, it's gone from the universe forever.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15626

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

7/04/13 3:15:10 PM#70
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
First we must define the definition of Pay to Win. Some say it's the ability to buy items that are superior than those provided in the game and the only way to get them is from real currency. Some say being able to spend money to get top tier gear/ships/equipment etc without having to put in the time to get it yourself is pay to win. Personally I think EVE is pay to win to a slight degree. Saying that you have to put months in to train your skills doesn't detract from the fact that you can essentially buy any ship you want. If WoW released a shop that allowed you to buy all the best gear would you not call that pay to win? "NO of course not, you have to spend A LOT of time grinding up to level 90, then you have to learn how to properly PvP...etc etc" I think you see my point. Player skill, or game knowledge has nothing to do with if a game is pay to win. Is EVE pay to win? People with money to blow certainly do have an advantage, you can't deny that.

Umm...you seem to think you can just by a ship and that means you win.    Sure a player with a lot of ISK can buy any ship they want - but what good is that ship if you can't even pilot it?   You just wasted ISK on a ship you cannot fly.   And no..people with money have no advantage - zero.     I know people in game that made all their ISK running missions - billions of ISK.    They actually buy Plex for game time.   

There is no golden Ammo in EVE - none.    There is no ship you cannot easily buy if you run a few missions.   Yes there are people that buy Plex for ISK - because they don't like anything not related to Pew Pew against other players.    That is there choice if that is how they wish to get their ISK - it doesn't give them any advantage whatsoever - at all - zero.

And can't you buy characters? Can't I essentially just buy a really decked out character, buy a really OP decked out ship, etc? Psh.. no advantage whatsoever to someone who doesn't spend money on the game at all... /thread

Go ahead and buy a character - still doesn't mean you know WTF you are doing...   /thread

Just because you buy a character and ship doesn't mean you do not know what you're doing.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  gimmesome

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 368

7/04/13 3:16:51 PM#71

@OP:

I'm sorry if someone covered this already, but first of all, PLEX ultimately pays for 30 days of someone's account, which means CCP doesn't really get anything out of it, as each PLEX purchased = 1 month that someone doesn't have to pay for their account.  Plus, the ISK one gets from selling them doesn't come from thin air.  It's from the economy in EVE.   Time is the real currency in EVE.  

The thing about buying PLEX and it's effect on EVE economy is, well... Best I can try to describe it is like a Vegas casino.  Some people 'win a ton of money' but MOST people(in this case, 'players') lose a lot more than they gain.   I say Most because of the high turn-around of the general population on a large scale.    

Sure, spend $40 on PLEX (I have plenty of times, so I'm not judging anyone) -- considering the market for PLEX in game fluxes, there's no set amount of in game currency you are guaranteed to receive for your purchase.   

The $ to ISK ratio is steep.  To buy enough PLEX to trade for the amount of ISK it would take to be regarded as "rich", it would indeed cost you Thousands of dollars IRL.  

But, let's say you buy 1 PLEX pack and get a good amount for them in the market, say 1.5-2billion ISK.    To a brand new player, that's a shitload.   To Veterans, it's practically a day or two's work.         What are you going to buy with all the ISK?  Stuff.   Stuff you can and WILL lose, sooner or later.    Stuff that someone else can and WILL try to take or steal from you.   

You buy an expensive ship and fit it with expensive mods and before you even undock a station in that ship, there is a minimum of 1 if not more, sometimes dozens of players that know what you're doing, considering someone and/or some people had to have crafted everything you just bought, as well as the sales record when you purchased it -- The person who put it up for sale knows where it was when you bought it... the people that made your guns, missiles, launchers, drones, shields, armor, etc all know when someone bought it all and where.       So, in many cases, people buying ISK just to try and buy the "WIN" are impatient people that don't understand the way EVE works, and in time, lose everything they have.  Being that all this ends up in someone else's hands eventually, it pretty much means that when someone buys PLEX, there's a very good chance, for a MULTITUDE of reasons and scenarios, that the ISK gained in the process (if any, considering how many people on a daily basis lose cargo that had PLEXs in it due to piracy etc) is simply stimulating the market just as every other aspect in EVE.  

Buying PLEX for ISK is really very similar to paying for someone else's account for them, while they give you ISK for your kindness, all the while you are giving the ISK to everyone else in various ways, meanwhile, the person who originally "gave" you the ISK for your "kindness" is pirating for a day and comes up on 3x more than he gave you in stolen items, ransoms, scams, missions, destroyed ships, etc.  

In the end, if you talk to the real in-deep players in the EVE community, you'd find that they/we don't really care all that much about PLEX.  It's just another thing for people that don't want to buy to steal, and it hurts no one.     

  XxGrimmxX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 245

7/04/13 3:21:32 PM#72
Originally posted by Sheista
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Attend4455
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Attend4455
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
First we must define the definition of Pay to Win. Some say it's the ability to buy items that are superior than those provided in the game and the only way to get them is from real currency. Some say being able to spend money to get top tier gear/ships/equipment etc without having to put in the time to get it yourself is pay to win. Personally I think EVE is pay to win to a slight degree. Saying that you have to put months in to train your skills doesn't detract from the fact that you can essentially buy any ship you want. If WoW released a shop that allowed you to buy all the best gear would you not call that pay to win? "NO of course not, you have to spend A LOT of time grinding up to level 90, then you have to learn how to properly PvP...etc etc" I think you see my point. Player skill, or game knowledge has nothing to do with if a game is pay to win. Is EVE pay to win? People with money to blow certainly do have an advantage, you can't deny that.

Umm...you seem to think you can just by a ship and that means you win.    Sure a player with a lot of ISK can buy any ship they want - but what good is that ship if you can't even pilot it?   You just wasted ISK on a ship you cannot fly.   And no..people with money have no advantage - zero.     I know people in game that made all their ISK running missions - billions of ISK.    They actually buy Plex for game time.   

There is no golden Ammo in EVE - none.    There is no ship you cannot easily buy if you run a few missions.   Yes there are people that buy Plex for ISK - because they don't like anything not related to Pew Pew against other players.    That is there choice if that is how they wish to get their ISK - it doesn't give them any advantage whatsoever - at all - zero.

And can't you buy characters? Can't I essentially just buy a really decked out character, buy a really OP decked out ship, etc? Psh.. no advantage whatsoever to someone who doesn't spend money on the game at all... /thread

you could yes but you would just lose it. Look at e.g. PvE vs PvP

PvE you buy a character that can fly a blinged out mach and run lvl4 missions, you die to the first elite frig because you don't know how L4 missions work, how traversal works, etc Worse, you get mission ninja'ed and get podded in your elite clone because you don't understand aggression, Crimewatch etc

PvP, it just gets worse, you can be a maxed out sub cap pilot with every ship and weapon skill there is and you will die to the first guy that comes along in an attack frig.

0/10

While true it really has no bearing on the discussion.

au contraire my friend, the subject is "Is Eve pay to win?", my answer is, No it isn't and I pointed out the flaws in your argument.

Player skill has no affect on whether a game is pay to win or not.

Player Skill and knowledge has a lot to do with winning, so yes it does.  The absolute point of this entire argument is that purchasing ISK only gives you a faux-advantage over other players.  Because the base of the game revolves around character training, and knowledge of the game executed in the form of tactics during a fight.  Purchasing ISK only allows you to buy the items used to fight.  None of those items are unable to be purchased by other players and in fact cost other players just the same.  If you purchase a character, so what?  You don't know how to use any of that character's skills, any of his ships.  The way combat works in EVE, there is no I-win fit.  No single ship or group of ships that dominates.  That's what you're missing about this whole argument.  None of the purchasable items are unpurchasable by other players.  All PLEX does is remove some of the time/waiting game for players.  It does not give advantage in combat, because that player would have those items regardless.  He would just have less of them.

 

Pay-2-win implies being able to purchase items that other players can not acquire by playing the game.  Taking away some time required to gain an item is not 'paying to win'.  If I sell a plex, get some ISK, buy some ships and fittings, that money is coming from somewhere and was created by in-game means.  That ISK came from another player, who gained that ISK by competing in the game.  The money CAME from the game.  It wasn't created out of thin air for the sole purpose of going to a PLEX seller. 

All a plex is, is a consumable item worth a large amount of in-game money.  It's not permanently adding anything to the game.  In fact, it strengthens the value of ISK by being usable, and carryable like any other item in-game.  It's price in fact, is based on the normal rules of the market.  Supply and demand.

Meaning that in the universe, the value of PLEX changes constantly.  That money is practically a permanent fixture in the game for the past however many years PLEX have been available in their current form.  It's been a constant piece of the game's economy, a MONITORED piece of the game's economy.

TL;DR - PLEX only gives you ISK.  It does not allow you to purchase items that other players cannot purchase.  Therefore, by market definition of pay-2-win, it is not.  Pay-2-win cash shops are where you are able to buy a good item that other players don't have access to, or an item that your character shouldn't be able to use.  IE; special items that bypass skill/level requirements as I've seen in some cash shop games.

The reality of EVE is this - Spend your thousands of real life dollars on whatever you want.  I don't care.  It'll just be that much sweeter for me to blow up when it becomes obvious that you don't know how to use any of it.  Nothing you have is anything I won't come up against from people who don't sell PLEX.  It's not special.  It's just like everyone else's shiny things.  It goes boom just the same as everything else.  Then, it's gone from the universe forever.

So a few things. First I'd like to point you to my first reply of this thread. Then I'd like to point out that while I don't think it's OMGWTFBBQ pay to win like some other games, you can't deny the fact that people with money to spend on the game do get a significant advantage to people who do not spend money on the game. Third, why do you and apparently everyone else assume that it's going to be new players buying characters? Threads like these end badly because it's so black and white, there needs to be a new term for games like these... pay to compete? pay to keep up games? I mean really.. what EVE player hasn't plexed himself because he got blown up a few times in a row?

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4782

7/04/13 3:23:07 PM#73
Originally posted by gimmesome

@OP:

I'm sorry if someone covered this already, but first of all, PLEX ultimately pays for 30 days of someone's account, which means CCP doesn't really get anything out of it, as each PLEX purchased = 1 month that someone doesn't have to pay for their account.  Plus, the ISK one gets from selling them doesn't come from thin air.  It's from the economy in EVE.   Time is the real currency in EVE.  

The thing about buying PLEX and it's effect on EVE economy is, well... Best I can try to describe it is like a Vegas casino.  Some people 'win a ton of money' but MOST people(in this case, 'players') lose a lot more than they gain.   I say Most because of the high turn-around of the general population on a large scale.    

Sure, spend $40 on PLEX (I have plenty of times, so I'm not judging anyone) -- considering the market for PLEX in game fluxes, there's no set amount of in game currency you are guaranteed to receive for your purchase.   

The $ to ISK ratio is steep.  To buy enough PLEX to trade for the amount of ISK it would take to be regarded as "rich", it would indeed cost you Thousands of dollars IRL.  

But, let's say you buy 1 PLEX pack and get a good amount for them in the market, say 1.5-2billion ISK.    To a brand new player, that's a shitload.   To Veterans, it's practically a day or two's work.         What are you going to buy with all the ISK?  Stuff.   Stuff you can and WILL lose, sooner or later.    Stuff that someone else can and WILL try to take or steal from you.   

You buy an expensive ship and fit it with expensive mods and before you even undock a station in that ship, there is a minimum of 1 if not more, sometimes dozens of players that know what you're doing, considering someone and/or some people had to have crafted everything you just bought, as well as the sales record when you purchased it -- The person who put it up for sale knows where it was when you bought it... the people that made your guns, missiles, launchers, drones, shields, armor, etc all know when someone bought it all and where.       So, in many cases, people buying ISK just to try and buy the "WIN" are impatient people that don't understand the way EVE works, and in time, lose everything they have.  Being that all this ends up in someone else's hands eventually, it pretty much means that when someone buys PLEX, there's a very good chance, for a MULTITUDE of reasons and scenarios, that the ISK gained in the process (if any, considering how many people on a daily basis lose cargo that had PLEXs in it due to piracy etc) is simply stimulating the market just as every other aspect in EVE.  

Buying PLEX for ISK is really very similar to paying for someone else's account for them, while they give you ISK for your kindness, all the while you are giving the ISK to everyone else in various ways, meanwhile, the person who originally "gave" you the ISK for your "kindness" is pirating for a day and comes up on 3x more than he gave you in stolen items, ransoms, scams, missions, destroyed ships, etc.  

In the end, if you talk to the real in-deep players in the EVE community, you'd find that they/we don't really care all that much about PLEX.  It's just another thing for people that don't want to buy to steal, and it hurts no one.     

How does CCP get nothing out of it? They get an account paid for by allowing someone who might not otherwise pay for another account be paid for by someone who will.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  XxGrimmxX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 245

7/04/13 3:25:26 PM#74
Originally posted by gimmesome

@OP:

I'm sorry if someone covered this already, but first of all, PLEX ultimately pays for 30 days of someone's account, which means CCP doesn't really get anything out of it, as each PLEX purchased = 1 month that someone doesn't have to pay for their account.  Plus, the ISK one gets from selling them doesn't come from thin air.  It's from the economy in EVE.   Time is the real currency in EVE.  

The thing about buying PLEX and it's effect on EVE economy is, well... Best I can try to describe it is like a Vegas casino.  Some people 'win a ton of money' but MOST people(in this case, 'players') lose a lot more than they gain.   I say Most because of the high turn-around of the general population on a large scale.    

Sure, spend $40 on PLEX (I have plenty of times, so I'm not judging anyone) -- considering the market for PLEX in game fluxes, there's no set amount of in game currency you are guaranteed to receive for your purchase.   

The $ to ISK ratio is steep.  To buy enough PLEX to trade for the amount of ISK it would take to be regarded as "rich", it would indeed cost you Thousands of dollars IRL.  

But, let's say you buy 1 PLEX pack and get a good amount for them in the market, say 1.5-2billion ISK.    To a brand new player, that's a shitload.   To Veterans, it's practically a day or two's work.         What are you going to buy with all the ISK?  Stuff.   Stuff you can and WILL lose, sooner or later.    Stuff that someone else can and WILL try to take or steal from you.   

You buy an expensive ship and fit it with expensive mods and before you even undock a station in that ship, there is a minimum of 1 if not more, sometimes dozens of players that know what you're doing, considering someone and/or some people had to have crafted everything you just bought, as well as the sales record when you purchased it -- The person who put it up for sale knows where it was when you bought it... the people that made your guns, missiles, launchers, drones, shields, armor, etc all know when someone bought it all and where.       So, in many cases, people buying ISK just to try and buy the "WIN" are impatient people that don't understand the way EVE works, and in time, lose everything they have.  Being that all this ends up in someone else's hands eventually, it pretty much means that when someone buys PLEX, there's a very good chance, for a MULTITUDE of reasons and scenarios, that the ISK gained in the process (if any, considering how many people on a daily basis lose cargo that had PLEXs in it due to piracy etc) is simply stimulating the market just as every other aspect in EVE.  

Buying PLEX for ISK is really very similar to paying for someone else's account for them, while they give you ISK for your kindness, all the while you are giving the ISK to everyone else in various ways, meanwhile, the person who originally "gave" you the ISK for your "kindness" is pirating for a day and comes up on 3x more than he gave you in stolen items, ransoms, scams, missions, destroyed ships, etc.  

In the end, if you talk to the real in-deep players in the EVE community, you'd find that they/we don't really care all that much about PLEX.  It's just another thing for people that don't want to buy to steal, and it hurts no one.     

CCP gets ~$15 for every active account on that game assuming no free trial. Someone is paying for it.

  gimmesome

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 368

7/04/13 3:30:54 PM#75
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
*snip*

So a few things. First I'd like to point you to my first reply of this thread. Then I'd like to point out that while I don't think it's OMGWTFBBQ pay to win like some other games, you can't deny the fact that people with money to spend on the game do get a significant advantage to people who do not spend money on the game. Third, why do you and apparently everyone else assume that it's going to be new players buying characters? Threads like these end badly because it's so black and white, there needs to be a new term for games like these... pay to compete? pay to keep up games? I mean really.. what EVE player hasn't plexed himself because he got blown up a few times in a row?

I just want to say firs that I am going to try and not be "that guy" that tries to derail your approach by pointing out an exception or two to your statement.  BUT, I will say that from personal experience over years of playing EVE, I really don't see a clear advantage to buying PLEX over those that don't.     TBH, most people I know that buy or bought PLEX, including myself, only did or do so to 'keep up' with either their own character's SKILLS (books are expensive at later skill lvls) or to buy something(s) they shouldn't be buying yet (because let's face it, if you can't afford something in EVE, it's because it's purpose is not suited for the scale of gameplay you are currently a part of.)  and last but not least, in the common cases where they/we don't have the IRL free time it takes to spend multiple hours every day doing the in-game tasks it takes to earn the ISK naturally.  When you consider how much "hardcore" players make per day, or even per HOUR in EVE, the PLEX buyers' wallet size fade in comparison.

I've never met anyone, again, including myself, who buys or bought PLEX and ends up with more ISK than any serious player. 

  daetheven

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/04
Posts: 53

kill them all

7/04/13 3:34:01 PM#76

pay to win is a term for F2P not a subbed game that does not have a in game store as far as i can see this grimx person is doing nothing but trying real hard at being a troll

 

  XxGrimmxX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 245

7/04/13 3:34:01 PM#77
Originally posted by gimmesome
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
*snip*

So a few things. First I'd like to point you to my first reply of this thread. Then I'd like to point out that while I don't think it's OMGWTFBBQ pay to win like some other games, you can't deny the fact that people with money to spend on the game do get a significant advantage to people who do not spend money on the game. Third, why do you and apparently everyone else assume that it's going to be new players buying characters? Threads like these end badly because it's so black and white, there needs to be a new term for games like these... pay to compete? pay to keep up games? I mean really.. what EVE player hasn't plexed himself because he got blown up a few times in a row?

I just want to say firs that I am going to try and not be "that guy" that tries to derail your approach by pointing out an exception or two to your statement.  BUT, I will say that from personal experience over years of playing EVE, I really don't see a clear advantage to buying PLEX over those that don't.     TBH, most people I know that buy or bought PLEX, including myself, only did or do so to 'keep up' with either their own character's SKILLS (books are expensive at later skill lvls) or to buy something(s) they shouldn't be buying yet (because let's face it, if you can't afford something in EVE, it's because it's purpose is not suited for the scale of gameplay you are currently a part of.)  and last but not least, in the common cases where they/we don't have the IRL free time it takes to spend multiple hours every day doing the in-game tasks it takes to earn the ISK naturally.  When you consider how much "hardcore" players make per day, or even per HOUR in EVE, the PLEX buyers' wallet size fade in comparison.

I've never met anyone, again, including myself, who buys or bought PLEX and ends up with more ISK than any serious player. 

Like I said earlier, pay to win is a really black and white term. I did say that it's more likely something along the lines of pay to compete or pay to keep up, which you did clarify there. More importantly, if you die a few times in a row, you can spend awhile farming missions for ISK or whatever you do, or you can PLEX yourself. Is plexing yourself saving you time? Yes. Is that an advantage? Yes. Is it pay to win? Definitely not.

  gimmesome

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 368

7/04/13 3:34:46 PM#78
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
*snip*

CCP gets ~$15 for every active account on that game assuming no free trial. Someone is paying for it.

Did I say somewhere in my post that this is not true?      I don't understand your response considering you quoted that whole reply, especially because we aren't disagreeing on this lol

 

Is the OP's issue that he thinks no one is paying for it?

  XxGrimmxX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 245

7/04/13 3:36:36 PM#79
Originally posted by daetheven

pay to win is a term for F2P not a subbed game that does not have a in game store as far as i can see this grimx person is doing nothing but trying real hard at being a troll

 

You can have a pay to win game without an in game store. Saying that it is a term strictly for f2p games is a little narrow minded. I mean, probably anyone here except for you apparently could think of a situation in which a p2p game could be p2w as well. Get some imagination.

  XxGrimmxX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 245

7/04/13 3:39:23 PM#80
Originally posted by gimmesome
Originally posted by XxGrimmxX
*snip*

CCP gets ~$15 for every active account on that game assuming no free trial. Someone is paying for it.

Did I say somewhere in my post that this is not true?      I don't understand your response considering you quoted that whole reply, especially because we aren't disagreeing on this lol

 

Is the OP's issue that he thinks no one is paying for it?

It was a misread on my part. I wasn't really trying to argue with you, just clarifying. Nothing to see here people, move along =P

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