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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why does FFA PvP or Always On PvP need to be global?

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107 posts found
  Notimeforbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 302

7/03/13 1:55:51 AM#41
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by waynejr2

 These games are RPGs (as in mmoRPG) which implies character progression.  If you don't like that with your pvp, then you have FPS games for "true" pvp.  I don't understand why hardcore pvp players insist on playing mmorpg when you have your games waiting for you.

I think it might be because most FPS lacks customization and individualization options - they are too simplistic.

 

MMO PvPers generally like playing MMO I think because they liked to be recognised and be able to be notorious. The problem with  just FPS is they usually lack deep, diversity and a sense of individually.  I would say developers are partly to blame for that (ie. they automatically assumed that FPS players don't care about individually and looks, so just give them kill kill kill gameplay).

 

Which is I think part of the reason why games like GTA and Saint Row becomes quite successful - there are some depth and customization in their kill kill kill-ness.

Well, for myself specifically:

I like PvP in my PvE MMO, especially FFA Open World PvP, because I enjoy the idea of... you know... Role Playing in an alternate world that is only cool because it borrows from real world scenarios.

Take Star Wars The Old Republic, for instance.  I played a Smuggler.  I like the idea that there is another Player Bounty Hunter out there somewhere trying to capture me.  You know... like Han Solo and Boba Fett.  Since the game doesn't technicaly have such an intricate design element in is such as actual Bounty Hunting.... I have to use my imagination.

WHOA - WHAT?  PVPERS HAVE THAT?

Yes, we do.  So since I am using my imagination, I pretend that that enemy Bounty Hunter I just saw zoom past me on a Speeder Bike is out to get me, especially since I am in my Faction's questing zone and I am the only person around here.  Maybe I live.  Maybe I die.  I don't know.  But I am one hell of a Smuggler who somehow always finds himself in trouble and must escape danger somehow.

Sorry pal... I don't mean to destroy your make believe image of all players who like PvP.  Some of us enjoy the thrill it adds to our imagination that a purely PvE experience doesn't provide.  Why?  Well... because there is no guesswork against leveling PvE mobs.  I'm going to win.

  bosmer24

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/04
Posts: 114

7/03/13 2:05:24 AM#42
this may or may not pertain to the topic ,but if I want PVP all I have to do is sail over to Chaos or go through an epic portal. I am happy on a PVE server , and yes , the game I play is a sandbox , no classes and no quests just skills and a world to shape to our desires. :o)
  aRtFuLThinG

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1116

7/03/13 2:17:56 AM#43
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by waynejr2

 These games are RPGs (as in mmoRPG) which implies character progression.  If you don't like that with your pvp, then you have FPS games for "true" pvp.  I don't understand why hardcore pvp players insist on playing mmorpg when you have your games waiting for you.

I think it might be because most FPS lacks customization and individualization options - they are too simplistic.

 

MMO PvPers generally like playing MMO I think because they liked to be recognised and be able to be notorious. The problem with  just FPS is they usually lack deep, diversity and a sense of individually.  I would say developers are partly to blame for that (ie. they automatically assumed that FPS players don't care about individually and looks, so just give them kill kill kill gameplay).

 

Which is I think part of the reason why games like GTA and Saint Row becomes quite successful - there are some depth and customization in their kill kill kill-ness.

Well, for myself specifically:

I like PvP in my PvE MMO, especially FFA Open World PvP, because I enjoy the idea of... you know... Role Playing in an alternate world that is only cool because it borrows from real world scenarios.

Take Star Wars The Old Republic, for instance.  I played a Smuggler.  I like the idea that there is another Player Bounty Hunter out there somewhere trying to capture me.  You know... like Han Solo and Boba Fett.  Since the game doesn't technicaly have such an intricate design element in is such as actual Bounty Hunting.... I have to use my imagination.

WHOA - WHAT?  PVPERS HAVE THAT?

Yes, we do.  So since I am using my imagination, I pretend that that enemy Bounty Hunter I just saw zoom past me on a Speeder Bike is out to get me, especially since I am in my Faction's questing zone and I am the only person around here.  Maybe I live.  Maybe I die.  I don't know.  But I am one hell of a Smuggler who somehow always finds himself in trouble and must escape danger somehow.

Sorry pal... I don't mean to destroy your make believe image of all players who like PvP.  Some of us enjoy the thrill it adds to our imagination that a purely PvE experience doesn't provide.  Why?  Well... because there is no guesswork against leveling PvE mobs.  I'm going to win.

What you said is basically the same as what I have said - individualization and customization are all part of role play.

 

Is it not?

  Notimeforbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 302

7/03/13 2:49:44 AM#44
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by waynejr2

 These games are RPGs (as in mmoRPG) which implies character progression.  If you don't like that with your pvp, then you have FPS games for "true" pvp.  I don't understand why hardcore pvp players insist on playing mmorpg when you have your games waiting for you.

I think it might be because most FPS lacks customization and individualization options - they are too simplistic.

 

MMO PvPers generally like playing MMO I think because they liked to be recognised and be able to be notorious. The problem with  just FPS is they usually lack deep, diversity and a sense of individually.  I would say developers are partly to blame for that (ie. they automatically assumed that FPS players don't care about individually and looks, so just give them kill kill kill gameplay).

 

Which is I think part of the reason why games like GTA and Saint Row becomes quite successful - there are some depth and customization in their kill kill kill-ness.

Well, for myself specifically:

I like PvP in my PvE MMO, especially FFA Open World PvP, because I enjoy the idea of... you know... Role Playing in an alternate world that is only cool because it borrows from real world scenarios.

Take Star Wars The Old Republic, for instance.  I played a Smuggler.  I like the idea that there is another Player Bounty Hunter out there somewhere trying to capture me.  You know... like Han Solo and Boba Fett.  Since the game doesn't technicaly have such an intricate design element in is such as actual Bounty Hunting.... I have to use my imagination.

WHOA - WHAT?  PVPERS HAVE THAT?

Yes, we do.  So since I am using my imagination, I pretend that that enemy Bounty Hunter I just saw zoom past me on a Speeder Bike is out to get me, especially since I am in my Faction's questing zone and I am the only person around here.  Maybe I live.  Maybe I die.  I don't know.  But I am one hell of a Smuggler who somehow always finds himself in trouble and must escape danger somehow.

Sorry pal... I don't mean to destroy your make believe image of all players who like PvP.  Some of us enjoy the thrill it adds to our imagination that a purely PvE experience doesn't provide.  Why?  Well... because there is no guesswork against leveling PvE mobs.  I'm going to win.

What you said is basically the same as what I have said - individualization and customization are all part of role play.

 

Is it not?

Customization is irrelevant to my liking PvP, though like FFA PvP in particular, it is highly relevant to me having another layer for experiencing my character's exploits in my imagination.  The cooler he looks, the richer my imagination becomes.  But it's not like I am a "PvPer".  I don't even like to PvP.  I just like FFA PvP in the game.  It gives me that additional layer that otherwise would not exist.  I don't like Customization because my FPS doesn't offer it.  I'm not missing it from one place and compensating in another.  Not all PvPer's are die hard Call of Duty fanatics - which is a false presumption people tend to make.

Individuality in the sense that you described (notoriety or popularity) is irrelevant to my liking PvP.  It's not even the competition or the challenge of something harder than trash mobs.  And I especially detest grinding for PvP gear in arenas.  I would RATHER it be FFA PvP with NO arenas.

It's an additional layer of visceral experience that increases the potential ceiling for emotional response with the imagination I have invested in my character.  It's not for anyone else.  It's just for me.  No one else cares about my pretend heroics.  The game doesn't even acknowledge them in the way I imagine it.

In my imagination, my guy lives in a believable world that has danger at every corner.  People might chase after him for some reason or another.  He is a Smuggler after all.  This world would be dull if the other people in it could not execute my demise at their convenient discretion - I would fight back of course.  FFA PvP facilitates my needs for a believable world.  Regardless of what world or character I am playing.  I'm only famous in my imagination.  I could care less if other players actually know who I am.  And typically they don't... dude I suck at PvP.  But I love it.

  fardreamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/27/03
Posts: 224

"Trust your feelings!"

7/03/13 6:01:21 AM#45
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by Notimeforbs
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by waynejr2

 These games are RPGs (as in mmoRPG) which implies character progression.  If you don't like that with your pvp, then you have FPS games for "true" pvp.  I don't understand why hardcore pvp players insist on playing mmorpg when you have your games waiting for you.

I think it might be because most FPS lacks customization and individualization options - they are too simplistic.

 

MMO PvPers generally like playing MMO I think because they liked to be recognised and be able to be notorious. The problem with  just FPS is they usually lack deep, diversity and a sense of individually.  I would say developers are partly to blame for that (ie. they automatically assumed that FPS players don't care about individually and looks, so just give them kill kill kill gameplay).

 

Which is I think part of the reason why games like GTA and Saint Row becomes quite successful - there are some depth and customization in their kill kill kill-ness.

Well, for myself specifically:

I like PvP in my PvE MMO, especially FFA Open World PvP, because I enjoy the idea of... you know... Role Playing in an alternate world that is only cool because it borrows from real world scenarios.

Take Star Wars The Old Republic, for instance.  I played a Smuggler.  I like the idea that there is another Player Bounty Hunter out there somewhere trying to capture me.  You know... like Han Solo and Boba Fett.  Since the game doesn't technicaly have such an intricate design element in is such as actual Bounty Hunting.... I have to use my imagination.

WHOA - WHAT?  PVPERS HAVE THAT?

Yes, we do.  So since I am using my imagination, I pretend that that enemy Bounty Hunter I just saw zoom past me on a Speeder Bike is out to get me, especially since I am in my Faction's questing zone and I am the only person around here.  Maybe I live.  Maybe I die.  I don't know.  But I am one hell of a Smuggler who somehow always finds himself in trouble and must escape danger somehow.

Sorry pal... I don't mean to destroy your make believe image of all players who like PvP.  Some of us enjoy the thrill it adds to our imagination that a purely PvE experience doesn't provide.  Why?  Well... because there is no guesswork against leveling PvE mobs.  I'm going to win.

What you said is basically the same as what I have said - individualization and customization are all part of role play.

 

Is it not?

Customization is irrelevant to my liking PvP, though like FFA PvP in particular, it is highly relevant to me having another layer for experiencing my character's exploits in my imagination.  The cooler he looks, the richer my imagination becomes.  But it's not like I am a "PvPer".  I don't even like to PvP.  I just like FFA PvP in the game.  It gives me that additional layer that otherwise would not exist.  I don't like Customization because my FPS doesn't offer it.  I'm not missing it from one place and compensating in another.  Not all PvPer's are die hard Call of Duty fanatics - which is a false presumption people tend to make.

Individuality in the sense that you described (notoriety or popularity) is irrelevant to my liking PvP.  It's not even the competition or the challenge of something harder than trash mobs.  And I especially detest grinding for PvP gear in arenas.  I would RATHER it be FFA PvP with NO arenas.

It's an additional layer of visceral experience that increases the potential ceiling for emotional response with the imagination I have invested in my character.  It's not for anyone else.  It's just for me.  No one else cares about my pretend heroics.  The game doesn't even acknowledge them in the way I imagine it.

In my imagination, my guy lives in a believable world that has danger at every corner.  People might chase after him for some reason or another.  He is a Smuggler after all.  This world would be dull if the other people in it could not execute my demise at their convenient discretion - I would fight back of course.  FFA PvP facilitates my needs for a believable world.  Regardless of what world or character I am playing.  I'm only famous in my imagination.  I could care less if other players actually know who I am.  And typically they don't... dude I suck at PvP.  But I love it.

thank you, my imagination agrees with yours!

  Apraxis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1509

7/03/13 7:06:14 AM#46
Originally posted by lizardbones

This is something I've wondered about, but not really understood the logic of. It has definitely gotten a lot more attention recently with the pending release of EQN information.

I understand that PvP is more exciting, can add something akin to a political element to a game, and can even make items in the economy more valuable, but I've never understood the insistence that if there is FFA PvP in a game everyone must participate.

For example, if there are safe areas and unsafe areas, the unsafe areas must contain more valuable items. Why? To me this seems like a mechanic that arbitrarily limits the people who would want to play a game. It seems like the people who would want to PvP would hang out in the unsafe areas and the people who don't like PvP would hang out in the safe areas.

I've also gotten the impression, possibly wrongly, that people who like FFA, Always On PvP are against the idea of having two different server types, one with the PvP rule set and one with the PvP rule set. Why? It seems like a good idea for people who like PvP to be on one server and people who don't want PvP on all the time on another server.

So, what are your thoughts on this? Why must FFA or Always On PvP be universal or all encompassing?

Well.. not a lot of answers to your question. Some tried to explain, but did not really a good job withit.

So i will give it a try to explain you what i think is the answer to your question.

First of all it is not about FFA PvP alone, or PvP in that sense especially not PvP a lot of players think of. PvP in the sense of one player is attacking another player.

It is gameplay offered in EvE or was partially offered in old UO, and with that i will take those two to explain it.

One gameplay option, one role so to say in such a game is that of a trader, or transporter or gatherer. Lets take at first the transporter.

In EvE you transport goods from A to B. You either get paid for the transportation itself, or you make profit because goods you buy in A you can sell to with a much higher price in B. The reason why it is like that may be because in A is a rare resource near by and in B is a weapon factory in need of that rare resource. A is in null sec and b is in high sec or safe zone so to say.

For traveling you have to travel through null sec. And withit comes the danger and the challenge. You may have some escorts to look ahead the traveling route to check out if any pirates or enemy players are around, which may attack you. So it is about planning, it is about finding a secure route and it is about defending your goods, if you get actually attacked.

And it is a lot of fun to play.. at least for some. And you play pvp but without incentive to actually fight.. well you even try to avoid any fight.

Similar scenarios will apply to traders, to gatherer, to salvager... all of them don't look for a pvp fight, but the gameplay is depending on it.

And exactly the same is true for their counterparts, pirates, highwaymen(in a fantasy setting), bandits, with the difference that those guys look for a fight, but even more look for the profit to make with that fight.

So what happens to those gameplay style when you mix pve safe zones with the exact same resources into a game. And this applied to UO as the introduced trammel. They copied 1:1 felucca with pvp deaktivated, with all resources exactly the same.

Rather simple.. those gameplay options die out. Of course now you gather resources from the safe spot, because there is no risk involved. Transportation is not requested, because everyone can do it, because no danger no risk is involved. And as another result prices for high value resources go down dramatically, because it is a lot easier and not dangerous to get those resources.. and after some time, realizing you don't have any fun with resource gathering, transportation you quit the game.(because it became a grind and not an adventure it was originally) Exactly that happened to me in UO after the introduction of Trammel. Not even neccessary to talk about the inflation of the economy because of abuntant supply.

To compare it in PvE language. Think about a world boss, instance or raid. You have two versions of them.. they are exactly the same, with the difference one drops a lot of loot and the other one nothing. Which one will be farmed? Or which instance will be used? And which one will be rather abandoned?

Or a better comparsion. You have a rather easy world boss and a extremely difficult world boss. But both drop the exact same stuff. Which one will be farmed?

With other words you have destroyed different kinds of playstyles by introducing a pve zone with the exact same resources.

But that is it not alone. The same is true for the conquering game. Why you should take the trouble, the resources, the investment to conquer a territory, when there is a safe territory with the exact same resources and rewards? As often said, in such a game it is not only about the fight, it is about risk vs. reward, it is about meaning of pvp engangement.

If you take out any meaning from pvp it becomes rather dull for a lot of players.

But does that mean you can't have any safe/pve zones in such a world? No. You just have to balance it, you have to have those different playstyle in mind. As it is in EvE they do it with resource distribution.. the more valuable resources are in null sec. and therefore all those playstyles stay intact, and the same is for the conquer game or territory control. Balance of risk vs. reward.

You could add the exact same valuable resources in a pve zone, too. But then it have to be balanced difficult to get those resources, to not interfere or destroy those playstyles. Point is, not one game did it up to now in a satisfied way. Hell.. even in a ffa environment there is more or less just EvE, which get those economic playstyles right. Because it is not just ffa pvp, you need a lot of other mechanics, too, to support that kind of gameplay. (which is also often refered as part of the sandbox experience, although it alone does not define a sandbox)

In the end, it is not because of the pvp fight. The fight alone could be done in a lot of ways without the need of a world, without the need of persistence, massivness, economy and all those things found in MMORPGs or EvE. If it would only be about the pvp fight alone we could easily play Battlefield, DoTA or any similar game.

I hope you understand it now.

 

PS: And not everyone have to take part in pvp fights in such a world, but everyone is part of equation. Like some crafter or trader may never leave the safe zone, but hire people, which take part in it, and do jobs for them.

Edit/PPS:

Some games try to mimic the transporter/trader vs. pirates relation like Arche Age. There you craft/buy transportation goods you can sell at liberty island with a high reward. The way in between is pvp, and pirates or any enemy player can attack you and take the goods from you to sell it themselves.

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

7/03/13 7:28:10 AM#47
Originally posted by lizardbones

This is something I've wondered about, but not really understood the logic of. It has definitely gotten a lot more attention recently with the pending release of EQN information.

I understand that PvP is more exciting, can add something akin to a political element to a game, and can even make items in the economy more valuable, but I've never understood the insistence that if there is FFA PvP in a game everyone must participate.

For example, if there are safe areas and unsafe areas, the unsafe areas must contain more valuable items. Why? To me this seems like a mechanic that arbitrarily limits the people who would want to play a game. It seems like the people who would want to PvP would hang out in the unsafe areas and the people who don't like PvP would hang out in the safe areas.

I've also gotten the impression, possibly wrongly, that people who like FFA, Always On PvP are against the idea of having two different server types, one with the PvP rule set and one with the PvP rule set. Why? It seems like a good idea for people who like PvP to be on one server and people who don't want PvP on all the time on another server.

So, what are your thoughts on this? Why must FFA or Always On PvP be universal or all encompassing?

Asheron's call 2 had different pvp zones and one main pvp zone but most where always abandon.

Pve mixed with free for all zones don't work at all.

I realy don't see why its a problem when a game have pve servers and a free for all full loot server?

Why would someone  play a game where free for all are rule set and then start whining about ?

  Nimilanor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/12
Posts: 3

7/03/13 7:41:12 AM#48

I kinda miss the bit of i guess you can say runescape for simplicity sake,

 

that you can go into a pvp area and gradually increases in level zone,  like.. first few steps are pvp1 , then pvp+2. each step deeper means a higher level can attack you etc but increased rewards / resource node.

capped at +50 orso BUT at +50 deep zone, the rewards would be.. immense as is the danger.

 

where is the good old time where guilds fought over resources, with an entire guild surround a resource and let their miners or harvesters get the max resources they can all carry and then get the heck out, as theres a massive horde of allied guilds coming to try and take it back.

those were fun,  its also a reason I still love the game Tibia.  you die.. you loose your shit and possibly a level.

the threat of the unknown is a bit of a rush. every turn could be something deadly that will swallow you whole.

 

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  7/03/13 8:43:54 AM#49


Originally posted by GroovyFlower
Asheron's call 2 had different pvp zones and one main pvp zone but most where always abandon.

Pve mixed with free for all zones don't work at all.

I realy don't see why its a problem when a game have pve servers and a free for all full loot server?

Why would someone  play a game where free for all are rule set and then start whining about ?




I'm not really looking at people who are for or against FFA or Always On PvP. We know there are people who like it and people who don't, with reasons for their points of view.

Another example of what I'm talking about.

There are periodically calls for Darkfall to have a PvE server, with a PvE rule set and where the PvP would optional. There are people who like the mob AI and the sandbox style world, but who just don't want to deal with the PvP aspect of the game.

There are people who are categorically against having a PvE server for Darkfall, on what seems to be ascetic reasons. It would just be "wrong". However, there was actually a legitimate reason to not do this, other than just not liking it. It would dilute developer resources because they would have to focus on making the PvE game a good game without the PvP aspects at the same time they were working on the PvP side of the game which included the PvE aspects. Too many spices in the soup kind of thing.

You've raised another good point I think with Asheron's Call. If you have safe zones and unsafe zones, unless there's a good reason for people to head into the unsafe zones, it's likely they won't travel to those zones. Eve is an example of this too. A very large portion of Eve's population don't go into the low sec space. They have everything they want or need in high sec space.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  craftseeker

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/09
Posts: 650

7/03/13 9:24:41 AM#50
Originally posted by Apraxis

Well.. not a lot of answers to your question. Some tried to explain, but did not really a good job with it.

So i will give it a try to explain you what i think is the answer to your question.

 

.... Long and (in my eyes at least) idealised view of the game EVE   .....


If you take out any meaning from pvp it becomes rather dull for a lot of players.

I hope you understand it now.

PS: And not everyone have to take part in pvp fights in such a world, but everyone is part of equation. Like some crafter or trader may never leave the safe zone, but hire people, which take part in it, and do jobs for them.

As said elsewhere the EV E card has been played over and over again.  What is left out is the large number of MMORPG players who have tried  EVE and did not like it because of the FFA PvP and the even larger number of players that did not try it at all for a variety of reasons. The thing about EVE is that there is only one server so the option of having two rule sets disappears it was also designed from the ground up to be a PvP game.  It suceeds in this well (perhaps even very well). But  the option still exists for games with multiple servers to have multiple rule sets.  While Apraxis does not state that he is opposed to have multiple servers with different rule sets many have using much the same examples that he does.

I do not dispute that providing a place for people to go who do not want to PvP in any way shape or form may make PvP dull for a lot of players, but not providing this option alienates another large group of players.

In addition creating ghetto zones for people who do not want to PvP is not a good solution socially, it discriminates against those players and encourages PvP players to start using terms like NOOB and Carebear.  As to having to wait for a group of PvP players to "escort" me anywhere that is just contemptible.

If you want an OW FFA Pvp game they are out there: Darkfall:UW, EVE, Defiance, the upcoming Camelot Unchained.  Even Archage looks to be largely OW FFA PvP.  But to provide options for those that do not want OW FFA PvP other games need to be released that do encourage a PvE only play style. Hopefully Everquest Next will be one of these.

  Apraxis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1509

7/03/13 9:43:50 AM#51
Originally posted by craftseeker
Originally posted by Apraxis

Well.. not a lot of answers to your question. Some tried to explain, but did not really a good job with it.

So i will give it a try to explain you what i think is the answer to your question.

 

.... Long and (in my eyes at least) idealised view of the game EVE   .....


If you take out any meaning from pvp it becomes rather dull for a lot of players.

I hope you understand it now.

PS: And not everyone have to take part in pvp fights in such a world, but everyone is part of equation. Like some crafter or trader may never leave the safe zone, but hire people, which take part in it, and do jobs for them.

  ...

If you want an OW FFA Pvp game they are out there: Darkfall:UW, EVE, Defiance, the upcoming Camelot Unchained.  Even Archage looks to be largely OW FFA PvP.  But to provide options for those that do not want OW FFA PvP other games need to be released that do encourage a PvE only play style. Hopefully Everquest Next will be one of these.

I am not argueing if one game or the other should support or offer that experience or not. Some like that kind of game, and others like another kind of game. And i am completely ok with it.. for everyone their cup of tea.

I was just trying to answer the OPs question, why in certain games full PvE Zones and PvP Zones don't fit as easily together. The very same is true for different ruleset servers.

It isn't just enough to switch the pvp toggle on or off to deliver a good game, be it a good PvE game with switching pvp toggle off, or delivering a good pvp game with switching the pvp toggle on. Finally it is up to the designer and developers what kind of game they want, what audience they target. And the same is true for EQN.. i don't know what it will deliver, and we all have to wait another month to get any information about it.

As example. Darkfall would be a miserable pve game with just switching the pvp toggle off. And as much as most themepark mostly PvE games are miserable pvp games with a ffa ruleset server with just switching the pvp toggle on. Nevertheless a lot of developer do this, or have done it in the past, but it is always a very easy and cheap solution.

All those talk about pvp and EQN just appeared, because Smedly preannounced it as the greatest sandbox ever, and also made some comparsion to EvE. Do i think EQN will be a pvp game like EvE in a fantasy setting? Most probably not. I am not even sure if it will be a sandbox at all. Up to now it is just big talk from Smedly. The most i expect at the moment is more or less another EQ game with a few sandbox tools, and i don't know if that one will really work out that good.

But finally we all have to wait and see it first, before we can discuss about it seriously.

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

7/03/13 9:45:50 AM#52
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by GroovyFlower
Asheron's call 2 had different pvp zones and one main pvp zone but most where always abandon.

 

Pve mixed with free for all zones don't work at all.

I realy don't see why its a problem when a game have pve servers and a free for all full loot server?

Why would someone  play a game where free for all are rule set and then start whining about ?




I'm not really looking at people who are for or against FFA or Always On PvP. We know there are people who like it and people who don't, with reasons for their points of view.

Another example of what I'm talking about.

There are periodically calls for Darkfall to have a PvE server, with a PvE rule set and where the PvP would optional. There are people who like the mob AI and the sandbox style world, but who just don't want to deal with the PvP aspect of the game.

There are people who are categorically against having a PvE server for Darkfall, on what seems to be ascetic reasons. It would just be "wrong". However, there was actually a legitimate reason to not do this, other than just not liking it. It would dilute developer resources because they would have to focus on making the PvE game a good game without the PvP aspects at the same time they were working on the PvP side of the game which included the PvE aspects. Too many spices in the soup kind of thing.

You've raised another good point I think with Asheron's Call. If you have safe zones and unsafe zones, unless there's a good reason for people to head into the unsafe zones, it's likely they won't travel to those zones. Eve is an example of this too. A very large portion of Eve's population don't go into the low sec space. They have everything they want or need in high sec space.

 

Asheron's call 1&2 it worked perfectly you had many pve servers few Kingdom vs Kingdom servers and one free for all pvp server called Darktide.

Im possitive developers can easly release game that have pve servers and FFA PVP servers.

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  7/03/13 9:46:18 AM#53


Originally posted by craftseeker

Originally posted by Apraxis Well.. not a lot of answers to your question. Some tried to explain, but did not really a good job with it. So i will give it a try to explain you what i think is the answer to your question.   .... Long and (in my eyes at least) idealised view of the game EVE   ..... If you take out any meaning from pvp it becomes rather dull for a lot of players. I hope you understand it now. PS: And not everyone have to take part in pvp fights in such a world, but everyone is part of equation. Like some crafter or trader may never leave the safe zone, but hire people, which take part in it, and do jobs for them.
As said elsewhere the EV E card has been played over and over again.  What is left out is the large number of MMORPG players who have tried  EVE and did not like it because of the FFA PvP and the even larger number of players that did not try it at all for a variety of reasons. The thing about EVE is that there is only one server so the option of having two rule sets disappears it was also designed from the ground up to be a PvP game.  It suceeds in this well (perhaps even very well). But  the option still exists for games with multiple servers to have multiple rule sets.  While Apraxis does not state that he is opposed to have multiple servers with different rule sets many have using much the same examples that he does.

I do not dispute that providing a place for people to go who do not want to PvP in any way shape or form may make PvP dull for a lot of players, but not providing this option alienates another large group of players.

In addition creating ghetto zones for people who do not want to PvP is not a good solution socially, it discriminates against those players and encourages PvP players to start using terms like NOOB and Carebear.  As to having to wait for a group of PvP players to "escort" me anywhere that is just contemptible.

If you want an OW FFA Pvp game they are out there: Darkfall:UW, EVE, Defiance, the upcoming Camelot Unchained.  Even Archage looks to be largely OW FFA PvP.  But to provide options for those that do not want OW FFA PvP other games need to be released that do encourage a PvE only play style. Hopefully Everquest Next will be one of these.




I don't have any qualitative arguments with Eve, I think they've got their system setup well, and it works. Better than most FFA, Always On PvP systems I can think of.

The only thing I would say is that the effects of PvP in Eve can be done with PvE, without using the PvP mechanic. To me, that means the reasons listed for requiring PvP for all players* are not good ones. They are good reasons for a Risk vs Reward system, and for having both high and low sec space, but not for PvP to be the particular solution. It's not a reason against PvP as the solution in the Risk vs Reward system either.

* Eve does allow PvP everywhere, but the split between high and low sec space gives players a nearly 100% chance of avoiding PvP if they want to avoid it. Even in low sec space, with a little forethought players can avoid PvP there too, but with a lower chance of success.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

7/03/13 9:50:45 AM#54
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

With just PvPers in a PvP zone... its wolves vs wolves and everything is always the same. aka, boring and unrealistic.

Its players who want to PvP, how is that boring? Its a win-win.

Boring is a player who wants to PvE in peace being forced to PvP, its one sided and lame, w

if he wanted to pvp in peace he wouldnt be in a ffa pvp game

  Apraxis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1509

7/03/13 9:52:49 AM#55
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by craftseeker

Originally posted by Apraxis Well.. not a lot of answers to your question. Some tried to explain, but did not really a good job with it. So i will give it a try to explain you what i think is the answer to your question.   .... Long and (in my eyes at least) idealised view of the game EVE   ..... If you take out any meaning from pvp it becomes rather dull for a lot of players. I hope you understand it now. PS: And not everyone have to take part in pvp fights in such a world, but everyone is part of equation. Like some crafter or trader may never leave the safe zone, but hire people, which take part in it, and do jobs for them.
As said elsewhere the EV E card has been played over and over again.  What is left out is the large number of MMORPG players who have tried  EVE and did not like it because of the FFA PvP and the even larger number of players that did not try it at all for a variety of reasons. The thing about EVE is that there is only one server so the option of having two rule sets disappears it was also designed from the ground up to be a PvP game.  It suceeds in this well (perhaps even very well). But  the option still exists for games with multiple servers to have multiple rule sets.  While Apraxis does not state that he is opposed to have multiple servers with different rule sets many have using much the same examples that he does.

 

I do not dispute that providing a place for people to go who do not want to PvP in any way shape or form may make PvP dull for a lot of players, but not providing this option alienates another large group of players.

In addition creating ghetto zones for people who do not want to PvP is not a good solution socially, it discriminates against those players and encourages PvP players to start using terms like NOOB and Carebear.  As to having to wait for a group of PvP players to "escort" me anywhere that is just contemptible.

If you want an OW FFA Pvp game they are out there: Darkfall:UW, EVE, Defiance, the upcoming Camelot Unchained.  Even Archage looks to be largely OW FFA PvP.  But to provide options for those that do not want OW FFA PvP other games need to be released that do encourage a PvE only play style. Hopefully Everquest Next will be one of these.




I don't have any qualitative arguments with Eve, I think they've got their system setup well, and it works. Better than most FFA, Always On PvP systems I can think of.

The only thing I would say is that the effects of PvP in Eve can be done with PvE, without using the PvP mechanic. To me, that means the reasons listed for requiring PvP for all players* are not good ones. They are good reasons for a Risk vs Reward system, and for having both high and low sec space, but not for PvP to be the particular solution. It's not a reason against PvP as the solution in the Risk vs Reward system either.

* Eve does allow PvP everywhere, but the split between high and low sec space gives players a nearly 100% chance of avoiding PvP if they want to avoid it. Even in low sec space, with a little forethought players can avoid PvP there too, but with a lower chance of success.

 

Most probably yes. And most probably you could even mix it. But the game have to be build up accordingly. And there is not one game, which did it successfully or even tried it. As i said already, even in a FFA PvP environment we more or less only got EvE for that kind of experience.

But yes, i absolutely agree, the key is risk vs. reward, and not so much pvp or no pvp.

PS: Because UO changed a lot, and can not be counted towards it, and was nevertheless the first try to do something like that.  And Darkfall lacks a lot of important features, like regional markets and things like that. It is much more just a big battleground with a few sandbox tools. So it is everything but perfect.

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  7/03/13 9:55:08 AM#56


Originally posted by GroovyFlower

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by GroovyFlower Asheron's call 2 had different pvp zones and one main pvp zone but most where always abandon.   Pve mixed with free for all zones don't work at all. I realy don't see why its a problem when a game have pve servers and a free for all full loot server? Why would someone  play a game where free for all are rule set and then start whining about ?
I'm not really looking at people who are for or against FFA or Always On PvP. We know there are people who like it and people who don't, with reasons for their points of view. Another example of what I'm talking about. There are periodically calls for Darkfall to have a PvE server, with a PvE rule set and where the PvP would optional. There are people who like the mob AI and the sandbox style world, but who just don't want to deal with the PvP aspect of the game. There are people who are categorically against having a PvE server for Darkfall, on what seems to be ascetic reasons. It would just be "wrong". However, there was actually a legitimate reason to not do this, other than just not liking it. It would dilute developer resources because they would have to focus on making the PvE game a good game without the PvP aspects at the same time they were working on the PvP side of the game which included the PvE aspects. Too many spices in the soup kind of thing. You've raised another good point I think with Asheron's Call. If you have safe zones and unsafe zones, unless there's a good reason for people to head into the unsafe zones, it's likely they won't travel to those zones. Eve is an example of this too. A very large portion of Eve's population don't go into the low sec space. They have everything they want or need in high sec space.  
Asheron's call 1&2 it worked perfectly you had many pve servers few Kingdom vs Kingdom servers and one free for all pvp server called Darktide.

Im possitive developers can easly release game that have pve servers and FFA PVP servers.




I would tend to agree with you. However, that doesn't make for a very lively discussion.

Short of sending a message to the people I saw in the EQN threads espousing "nothing but PvP is the only way to do things", I don't know that I'm going to get a very good, general answer. I know why Darkfall doesn't have a PvE server, but with larger scale games like EQN, development shouldn't be hampered by having two server types. It seemed to work OK with UO, and nearly half of WoW's servers are PvP servers, so it is certainly possible.

Any Eve players want to chime in on why the solution to the Risk vs Reward system in Eve must be PvP? Keep in mind, I'm not saying it shouldn't. As I've said I think CCP did their job and did it well, but it seems like it would be possible to do nearly the same thing, but with PvE instead of PvP.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  nerovipus32

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2734

7/03/13 10:00:34 AM#57
SWG had the best pvp system, simply join a faction and flag your self as overt. if you don't want to be involved in pvp then just stay neutral.
  Apraxis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1509

7/03/13 10:03:13 AM#58

About WoW and PvP servers.. it never really worked out. Open World pvp got never a lot of purpose or meaning.. so it was reduced to battlegrounds and arenas. And in that regard any simple multiplayer game is usually a lot better.

The same is true to UO.. they didn't solve the PvP - PvE problem. They switched more to pve, and added faction and guild wars, similar to DAoC into the game. But a lot of playstyles left out after the introduction of Trammel.

There is not a easy solution.. but that does not mean that there is no solution at all.

 

  lizardbones

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  7/03/13 10:06:14 AM#59


Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by DMKano

Originally posted by DavisFlight   With just PvPers in a PvP zone... its wolves vs wolves and everything is always the same. aka, boring and unrealistic.
Its players who want to PvP, how is that boring? Its a win-win. Boring is a player who wants to PvE in peace being forced to PvP, its one sided and lame, w
if he wanted to pvp in peace he wouldnt be in a ffa pvp game



There do exist people who try new games every day, without a full understanding of what they are getting into. That's why you get people who try Darkfall, and then ask about PvE servers. Darkfall might be their first MMO, or their first FFA PvP MMO, and they find that the sandbox aspects of the game are phenomenal, if only other players didn't stab them in the back while they were working on the mob with the cool AI.

Dismissing those players only works if there are a very small number of them. CCP had the same take on it as Adventurine, but they realized that they had a large audience of people who weren't that interested in PvP, and in order to keep the game from imploding on itself they implemented high sec space. Or they changed the rules for high sec space or something like that. I don't really remember. The point is, when you're talking about player preferences, it's the number of players that matter. The more players you have with a particular preference, the less dismissive you can be about that preference.

I'm not sure any of this is relevant to the topic at hand. It doesn't explain why some people hold the view that if there's going to be PvP in a game, it needs to be global, and always on. Is it just a preference, or is there some supporting logic that makes it a logical response to MMORPGs.

I'm going to assume this is a correct perception on my part, because nobody has said I'm wrong. These forums don't usually skip on pointing out how people have perceived things wrong. :-)

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  SavageHorizon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1580

7/03/13 10:12:54 AM#60
Originally posted by bcbully
FFA world with a PVE area full of quests and instances.  This will give the devs a lot of freedom to design something else.

FFA world separate from PVE on a different server. This will give the devs even more freedom to design something else.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0i88t0Kacs

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