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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Design element that has hurt recent MMORPGs

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57 posts found
  Sacria

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 52

7/02/13 12:10:21 PM#41
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

This

 

--------------------------------------------------->

 

It's called a line.  And the devs have been engineering gameplay so that you are always following it.

This is changing.  

AAA PVE fantasy sandbox MMORPG's are on their way.

I disagree, deviation from things that worked into 100% grindfests with nothing else to do other than grind for months ruined current gen mmo's

  geel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/04
Posts: 91

7/02/13 12:45:42 PM#42

Linearity isn't the problem at all imho. 

An MMO needs to have certain elements to keep you invested. 

whatever you are doing should be rewarding in 3-ways

a) character progression

b) meaningful loot

c) a surprise element

 

A: character progression should be harder and more difficult than currently is the case in MMO's. There is no reward in simply doing tasks for random NPC's and leveling up as you go. The act of leveling up should be half the fun, as it was in the old days. Leveling up should allow you to allocate points and customize your char so you want to chase that next level. Imho the way in which you kill mobs and complete quests is completely overrated. Take GW2 for example. Nice presentation of content but it completely lacks connection to your char. It doesn't feel like there is any customization. Leveling is easy and when you level you hardly bother stopping. You just keep going and before you know it you are lvl 80. You can take 10 seconds to put that point in a tree that hardly does anything at all. And you can reset it anyway. I have had multiple friends leveling up to 30 without spending any points or even buying more than 3 skills because they didn't feel like it mattered. Yes its nice that you can walk around and take in the scenery. But after looking at the different zones and figuring out what the game truly is about you are done with it. Unless you find yourself a nice guild to keep you entertained. I daresay most gameplay elements are not that important at all. It is not the core element in MMORPG's. It was never meant to be. MMORPG's imho are about mp aspects (pvp) combined with slow and tough character progression and customization to achieve a uniqueness in both looks and playstyle. 

We should go back to irreversible character progression that you had to think about beforehand. This means you would feel incredibly connected with you char because you are truly invested in it and it is really YOUR char. Also you are excited each time you can progress. 

B: Loot is f$cked. These static loot sheets that are used in every single mmorpg is bs. Only 1 game atm does it right, path of exile. No more explanation is needed me thinks. Now that I think about it. Path of Exile probably also has a lot going for it's character progression and customization concerning playstyle.

C: Surprises are soooo important. It is massively online!! It is THE platform that should enable for all sorts of UNEXPTECTED shit going on while you play. Random boss spawn, random event, random PvP events (i believe these dont even exist yet), random loot, random PvP encounter in open world pvp games. Why isn't more of this shit happening? SURPRISE! the 1-in-a-billion-super-legendary item just dropped. SURPRISE attack from the rear you have lost 25% experience fuck you! and pay more attention next time. Surprise rare tameable pet just spawned, catch it while you can. 

These things would add so much to a game. And right now nobody is doing it right imho. These are things that should be in an MMORPG. Not quests... What's the most boring part in any mmorpg? Ask anyone.. friggin quests. Why are they still in? Look at the older more popular MMORPGs that got the genre started. They had barely any quests if at all. 

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

7/02/13 1:26:41 PM#43
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

--------------------------------------------------->

I see it more like:

--------------------------------------------------->

Dashes are invidually crafted and thus expensive (in both time and money) to produce.

The line is not the problem, the line is simply a logical result of all the cost:benefit tradeoffs amongst different methods of producing and laying out dashes.

If you want to hype that you're going to break the line, you need to convince me that your game can efficiently produce high-quality dashes.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19544

7/02/13 1:32:21 PM#44
Originally posted by Rydeson
     Did we get side tracked?  I thought the OP was about a linear straight line element, and how it hurt the MMORPG genre, was it not?  And Yes, OP,  I think ----------------------------------> has hurt us greatly.. Console games like Dragon Age and KoTOR can be fun for those that like playing thru a linear storyline.. However, I hate the feeling of playing an online MMORPG as if I'm some sort of corralled cattle waiting for slaughter.. I prefer a gaming experience where I dictate my own path, bio and reputation, not one that is predetermined..

Linear stories work and they are nothing but dressing to have an excuse to kill lots of stuff.

And no players i have seen have created an in-game bio .. that is just too much work. Better to have the professionals do it .. and we just enjoy the result.

A mmo with no story is just a grind fest with no context.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

7/02/13 1:36:01 PM#45
Title is misleading the subject of the OP is just Sandbox is god!!!!No basis for discussion.
  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1463

7/02/13 1:45:50 PM#46
Originally posted by Axehilt

Whether an individual has fun is subjective. Many individuals having fun with Portal is objective.  It's by no means a cop-out to discuss these straightforward facts.  It would be a cop-out if we avoided the conversation entirely just because fun is subjective on an individual basis.

...

Yeap. But your analogy sucks nevertheless. Portal, and for that matter a lot of linear single player games are fun as long as the last. But in most cases you play through it one time. And then it is good. The content is not repeatable, the content is not dynamicly regenerating itself. You do it one time, and as long as it is good designed it is fun, but not a second time. (and if it comes down to themeparks where one game is more or less the same as the other.. it is like we have played portal 1- 100 and we are sick of the exact same puzzle every new game)

And exactly that don't work in a multiplayer game, which should be designed to played for a much longer time. And exactly that is the reason why themeparks don't work, and why every themepark loses a lot of player after a very short time. The content is consumed, and the game is not capable of producing content out of it alone.

And therefore you need other elements, so that content will be different(even if it is just slightly different as one themepark to another) every time you visit it. Like travelling from a to b and every time another surprise, another content to be cosumed. And the best way to realize it are sandbox tools and/or pvp content.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3285

7/02/13 2:52:15 PM#47
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rydeson
     Did we get side tracked?  I thought the OP was about a linear straight line element, and how it hurt the MMORPG genre, was it not?  And Yes, OP,  I think ----------------------------------> has hurt us greatly.. Console games like Dragon Age and KoTOR can be fun for those that like playing thru a linear storyline.. However, I hate the feeling of playing an online MMORPG as if I'm some sort of corralled cattle waiting for slaughter.. I prefer a gaming experience where I dictate my own path, bio and reputation, not one that is predetermined..

Linear stories work and they are nothing but dressing to have an excuse to kill lots of stuff.

And no players i have seen have created an in-game bio .. that is just too much work. Better to have the professionals do it .. and we just enjoy the result.

A mmo with no story is just a grind fest with no context.

And thank you for your OPINION..  I on the other have played games that allowed Bio's, and enjoyed the history those characters created.. I think you just haven't been around the block often enough to enjoy the MMORPG'ing that some of us have.. 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/02/13 3:02:41 PM#48
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

You know, people like all sorts of food, and as long as they enjoy what they like, I suppose the type of food does not much matter.  However, a forum about pizza is a forum about pizza, and to bring up ice cream and cheeseburgers in such a forum, making the claim that people like different types of food, is a bit nonsensical and off-track.

The same goes for MMORPG's.  This is a MMORPG forum.  So stuff like Portal, Mario, Halo, Bioshock, while all great games, are NOT MMORPG's.

And, as far as it being "nonsense to claim that the entire framework (of MMO's) is broken", I think previous points about WOW losing subs and WOW clones almost immediately declining and going FTP speaks for itself.  The framework is broken.

And the framework is being rebuilt, starting with EQ Next.  YAY!!!!

Are you serious?

First, 99% of those F2P games are themeparks.  Players are moving away from WOW towards more of the same content-driven gaming.  They're not sticking to one game, because the payment model doesn't force them into a massive upfront fee with a subscription -- they're free to actively bounce between the games that interest them (which happen to overwhelmingly be themeparks.)

And second, if someone pointed out a historic precedent which happened in the Cheeseburger business, people in a Pizza forum would listen to that obviously reasonable and valid evidence.  They would understand that (like MMOs and non-MMOs) the products are ridiculously similar and that the lessons learned in one business are nearly always applicable to the other.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19544

7/02/13 3:03:25 PM#49
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rydeson
     Did we get side tracked?  I thought the OP was about a linear straight line element, and how it hurt the MMORPG genre, was it not?  And Yes, OP,  I think ----------------------------------> has hurt us greatly.. Console games like Dragon Age and KoTOR can be fun for those that like playing thru a linear storyline.. However, I hate the feeling of playing an online MMORPG as if I'm some sort of corralled cattle waiting for slaughter.. I prefer a gaming experience where I dictate my own path, bio and reputation, not one that is predetermined..

Linear stories work and they are nothing but dressing to have an excuse to kill lots of stuff.

And no players i have seen have created an in-game bio .. that is just too much work. Better to have the professionals do it .. and we just enjoy the result.

A mmo with no story is just a grind fest with no context.

And thank you for your OPINION..  I on the other have played games that allowed Bio's, and enjoyed the history those characters created.. I think you just haven't been around the block often enough to enjoy the MMORPG'ing that some of us have.. 

Is starting to play in precursors to MMOs like Kingdom of Drakkar long enough?

I played EQ for a year .. and for that whole year .. there is no one i have met that have created any stories. The most is ".. oh .. i camped here for 3 hours, got trained twice, and nothing drop". That is not a story .. not a story in the context of lore anyway.

And no one i met "stays in character" and spoke as if he was an elf. It is more like "my wife is sleeping so i can play some .. want to group to level?" .. and again .. that is not a bio i care for.

My opinion is just as valid as yours.

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/02/13 5:22:54 PM#50
Originally posted by Apraxis

Yeap. But your analogy sucks nevertheless. Portal, and for that matter a lot of linear single player games are fun as long as the last. But in most cases you play through it one time. And then it is good. The content is not repeatable, the content is not dynamicly regenerating itself. You do it one time, and as long as it is good designed it is fun, but not a second time. (and if it comes down to themeparks where one game is more or less the same as the other.. it is like we have played portal 1- 100 and we are sick of the exact same puzzle every new game)

And exactly that don't work in a multiplayer game, which should be designed to played for a much longer time. And exactly that is the reason why themeparks don't work, and why every themepark loses a lot of player after a very short time. The content is consumed, and the game is not capable of producing content out of it alone.

And therefore you need other elements, so that content will be different(even if it is just slightly different as one themepark to another) every time you visit it. Like travelling from a to b and every time another surprise, another content to be cosumed. And the best way to realize it are sandbox tools and/or pvp content.

Sure linearity reduces longevity.  But it's not some absolute thing where it prevents these from being worthwhile games to play.  It's not absolute on the other end too: being non-linear doesn't prevent a game's patterns from getting old.

I'm still not comfortable with the ridiculous term "linear" as applied to MMORPGs, because none of them are even remotely linear.  It's pure hyperbole.  You have to fixate on some incredibly abstract singular game element to find anything actually linear ("Levels only increase?  And only one at a time?!  That makes it linear and linear games suck!") And at that point the criticism becomes meaningless.

The truth is these MMORPGs are merely slightly less non-linear than other MMORPGs.  There is nearly always a dynamic element involved (other players in group content; different progression state; different character; different abilities being used by the mob which could have dynamically different results if designed well.)

As for your last paragraph, what I'm disagreeing with is that you need those sandbox elements.  Games do not need that. It's sometimes helpful, for longevity reasons.  But all of the examples I've cited were games which didn't strive to be as non-linear as possible, and still did well.  Not just well, but they usually did better than games which tried to be as non-linear as possible.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/02/13 6:22:54 PM#51
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

My apologies. I should have indicated my sarcasm better. My response was a sarcastic remark to Axehilt's. I get the feeling from some of his posts that anything that lessens a game's efficiency is a "bad thing."

Right, it's always about efficiently creating a game design which delivers the most fun to the target audience.  The more efficient designers are at delivering that fun, the better games players will have to play.

If someone discusses ways of efficiently serving a niche audience, I'm fine with that.

I only object when someone claims that an efficient method is now permanently broken.  Especially given that this method has served and continues to serve the largest audience.

  ReallyNow10

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1629

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

 
OP  7/02/13 8:56:16 PM#52
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

My apologies. I should have indicated my sarcasm better. My response was a sarcastic remark to Axehilt's. I get the feeling from some of his posts that anything that lessens a game's efficiency is a "bad thing."

Right, it's always about efficiently creating a game design which delivers the most fun to the target audience.  The more efficient designers are at delivering that fun, the better games players will have to play.

If someone discusses ways of efficiently serving a niche audience, I'm fine with that.

I only object when someone claims that an efficient method is now permanently broken.  Especially given that this method has served and continues to serve the largest audience.

Mountains are heightened by valleys, pleasure by pain, reward by effort.  When you take away all the minuses, you trivialize the plusses.  If everyone is "The Hero", no one is a hero.  If everyone has the "magic flaming sword", no sword is cool or unique.

A game designed ONLY around efficiently delivering fast fun, over time delivers nothing.  There is a reason people play Minecraft, UO, Eve, etc...., and they play despite the grief and gruel of those games, because the pitfalls accentuate the heights of enjoyment in gameplay.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/02/13 9:46:32 PM#53
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Mountains are heightened by valleys, pleasure by pain, reward by effort.  When you take away all the minuses, you trivialize the plusses.  If everyone is "The Hero", no one is a hero.  If everyone has the "magic flaming sword", no sword is cool or unique.

A game designed ONLY around efficiently delivering fast fun, over time delivers nothing.  There is a reason people play Minecraft, UO, Eve, etc...., and they play despite the grief and gruel of those games, because the pitfalls accentuate the heights of enjoyment in gameplay.

Whether everyone is the hero isn't really the point, and is fairly offtopic.  (Although if you put it up for a vote, more will choose a game where everyone's a hero, than one where everyone's a shit-covered peasant.  Just like people prefer living in places that aren't quagmires.)

An efficiently designed game is a well-designed game, which implies valleys of some kind (unless the game is being designed purely as a relaxation activity and not as a decision-based game.)  So it's pretty irrelevant whether you're a hero or a glop of malformed mucus, because in either case an efficient game design will offer up some interesting challenges.

What it will avoid are uninteresting challenges.  Things like excessive travel time, where the timesink serves no gameplay or pacing purpose.

By extension, it will tend to avoid unnecessary delays in fun (which serve no purpose.)

There's a reason that (compared with the games you listed) many more players play games which are abundantly fun and don't hide their fun from players.

  ReallyNow10

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1629

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

 
OP  7/03/13 10:38:54 AM#54
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Mountains are heightened by valleys, pleasure by pain, reward by effort.  When you take away all the minuses, you trivialize the plusses.  If everyone is "The Hero", no one is a hero.  If everyone has the "magic flaming sword", no sword is cool or unique.

A game designed ONLY around efficiently delivering fast fun, over time delivers nothing.  There is a reason people play Minecraft, UO, Eve, etc...., and they play despite the grief and gruel of those games, because the pitfalls accentuate the heights of enjoyment in gameplay.

Whether everyone is the hero isn't really the point, and is fairly offtopic.  (Although if you put it up for a vote, more will choose a game where everyone's a hero, than one where everyone's a shit-covered peasant.  Just like people prefer living in places that aren't quagmires.)

An efficiently designed game is a well-designed game, which implies valleys of some kind (unless the game is being designed purely as a relaxation activity and not as a decision-based game.)  So it's pretty irrelevant whether you're a hero or a glop of malformed mucus, because in either case an efficient game design will offer up some interesting challenges.

What it will avoid are uninteresting challenges.  Things like excessive travel time, where the timesink serves no gameplay or pacing purpose.

By extension, it will tend to avoid unnecessary delays in fun (which serve no purpose.)

There's a reason that (compared with the games you listed) many more players play games which are abundantly fun and don't hide their fun from players.

Axehilt, the travel time in early EQ1 from Halas to Freeport, covered many zones, took (heck) an hour?, and was grand adventure.  Once you were high level, you forked over platinum for a port, but the cross-country trek at lower levels was exciting, maybe my most memorable experience in the game.  Still think about it 14 years later.

There is such a thing as too much streamlining in a game, and I think the present state of WOW has met that.

  nariusseldon

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Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19544

7/03/13 11:19:03 AM#55
Originally posted by zevni78
 

A "line" destroys immersion if your supposed to be exploring an open world, and it ruins re-playability with alts. I want freedom, spontainious variation, hard to get that in a linear context. Portal isnt an mmo, lines always feel too single player, that is why more and more are failing to complete PVE lvling in games like WoW, even if it's open world, it might as well not be.

Then "not supposed to be exploring an open world" .. problem solved. Most MMOs are not about exploring open world, but about instance raid/dungeon runs anyway. Don't tell me you disagree with the fact that players spend more time in instance dungeon runs than "exploring an open world".

Secondly, regarding alts, who says there is only ONE line? Just put in multiple story lines (TOR anyone?)

  nariusseldon

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Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19544

7/03/13 11:22:32 AM#56
Originally posted by Aelious
Linear design has its place and the large majority of what people are playing now are that way. Great for telling a story and you never waste any time because there is always a flashy thing guiding you.

I for one don't need it or want it no matter how fun the combat (gameplay) may be because you can do both. WoW is a good example of just one aspect being really good. I think the gameplay is fun but the overall experience wanes when the pattern never changes. As time has gone I think others want something different as well.

I see it like people who play instruments. Sometimes it's more fun to just have an open jam session than to constantly be playing to the sheet. If you know how to play you don't always need to be told what to do.

You are confusing "being told what to do" with a "linear quest line that gives you excuses/context to do things".

Take Deus Ex or Dishonor. Stores are as linear as you can get but you get full freedom of HOW to accomplish your mission. Stealth, killing, with what kill ....

Ditto in MMOs. You are given a story of why you want to kill the lich king. How? You figure it out. You have full combat freedom.

Freedom of wandering around, and talk to 100 NPCs that tell you nothing is not fun. Good game is about meaningful, interesting choices, not just choices.

 

  nariusseldon

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Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19544

7/03/13 11:25:46 AM#57
Originally posted by Apraxis
 

Yeap. But your analogy sucks nevertheless. Portal, and for that matter a lot of linear single player games are fun as long as the last. But in most cases you play through it one time. And then it is good. The content is not repeatable, the content is not dynamicly regenerating itself. You do it one time, and as long as it is good designed it is fun, but not a second time. (and if it comes down to themeparks where one game is more or less the same as the other.. it is like we have played portal 1- 100 and we are sick of the exact same puzzle every new game)

And exactly that don't work in a multiplayer game, which should be designed to played for a much longer time. And exactly that is the reason why themeparks don't work, and why every themepark loses a lot of player after a very short time. The content is consumed, and the game is not capable of producing content out of it alone.

And therefore you need other elements, so that content will be different(even if it is just slightly different as one themepark to another) every time you visit it. Like travelling from a to b and every time another surprise, another content to be cosumed. And the best way to realize it are sandbox tools and/or pvp content.

Who says multiplayer game needs to be long?

Take WOW leveling .. it is full of one-time quest. Same for TOR. same for almost every MMO. You do the quests ONCE.

And given so many choices out there, just play it once, finish the game, move on, and come back when there is new content. Don't tell me players are not doing that.

And whether it is fun or not depends on the combat. How many players play D2 (and D1) for years? Why ... because killing stuff is fun in those games. The quests are all the same, which everyone finished in the first 15 hours.

 

 

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