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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Perma-death in a MMORPG?

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  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

6/17/13 11:24:08 AM#241
Originally posted by Shadanwolf
PARADOX is running away as fast as it can from "SALEM"(which has perma-death).How many more perma-death games do some need to know this is a really bad idea.

D3 .. perma death option ... 9% characters are hard core. Seems to work well. I don't see a reason not to even consider a PD option.

 

 

  PsiKahn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 124

6/17/13 11:30:56 AM#242
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by PsiKahn

I can't say factually that PD is a good idea, all I am saying is that's it's worth exploring.

Dunno; how to you explain the rise of "save early/save often" in three-deaths video games, clear back in the 80s?

Why wasn't Donkey Kong played with a single death and no saves? Surely some video game producer somewhere must've tried it, and found it very unpopular--because adding a "save the game before you try anything really hard" became an industry-wide video game standard, somehow.

I submit that game producers did try, early on, rather a lot of compromises between /rawrhardcore and /joecasual, and ended up with the sort of compromise solutions that left the smallest number of players ragequitting.

A death-risk "price point", sort of.

I think I understand what you're getting at.  Yes, admittedly the single-player game sector has moved decidely away from "permadeath" over the years, though exceptions remain.  But I do think a persistent world game has a lot more to gain from a perma-death type system than does a single-player game, because of the "economy" of resources that players accrue (including wealth, items, and skills) and how those accruals afffect the other players in the game.

  Quirhid

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

6/17/13 12:14:29 PM#243
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Shadanwolf
PARADOX is running away as fast as it can from "SALEM"(which has perma-death).How many more perma-death games do some need to know this is a really bad idea.

D3 .. perma death option ... 9% characters are hard core. Seems to work well. I don't see a reason not to even consider a PD option.

Since you're using "characters created" as a measurement, you also have to remember that the average characters per player is far greater with players rolling hardcore characters (because those characters die). Therefore, the actual number of players who play with a PD option is bound to be lower than 9%.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

6/17/13 1:10:44 PM#244
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Shadanwolf
PARADOX is running away as fast as it can from "SALEM"(which has perma-death).How many more perma-death games do some need to know this is a really bad idea.

D3 .. perma death option ... 9% characters are hard core. Seems to work well. I don't see a reason not to even consider a PD option.

Since you're using "characters created" as a measurement, you also have to remember that the average characters per player is far greater with players rolling hardcore characters (because those characters die). Therefore, the actual number of players who play with a PD option is bound to be lower than 9%.

Yes, in my other thread, i did a full analysis.

It boils down to there are roughly 6M hard core characters. D3 allows for 10 characters max .. so theoretically, the number of players can be as low as 600k. However, since there are only 5 classes, it is probably not likely.

Assuming each players have at most 5 hard core characters seems to be a good assumption. In that case, there are 1.2M players with hard core characters. D3 sold 14.5M boxes.

That comes out to be around 8% of the players have perma death characters.

 

  greenreen

Elite Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1423

6/17/13 1:26:53 PM#245

It doesn't work. I experienced it in Haven and Hearth.

Yes there were the random ISP errors which you think are covered but by their nature they are random. Sometimes YOUR server can be too swamped to respond too. Players shouldn't take a death for that and it's unknowable. My internet is up 99% of the time but some days I can disconnect every 2 hours just for 1 minute increments, that's enough time to get killed by a mob or player while reconnecting. I can only imagine it's storms somewhere else in the pipeline and they are disconnecting and reconnecting lines but there is no warning. Being punished for things out of your control are frustrating.

The puds rule when there is opportunity to be a pud. I've watched it firsthand. In WOW they killed lowbies nonstop even when I and a group of others protected them. If someone can be one shotted, there is no saving them, only attacking the attacker after the fact. Someone is still dead and gets to run back even when protected unless the protector proactively attacks everyone around the person they are protecting then creating the very thing trying to be avoided. Anyone who played WOW will also remember the rogues that just sat around at dungeon entrances killing people on the path there. Why? There was nothing to gain but bothering others and they did it alllllllllllllll night. And I spent allllllllll night many nights protecting other people and never advanced my character except for selling auctions during that time.

In Haven and Hearth there were puds too, people chasing in groups so that they would have advantage over smaller groups or solo players. They attacked my property, me trying to tame wildlife, anywhere I went was danger. It wasn't "fun" to look at everyone as an enemy that I encountered. I made very few friends in the game because it was smarter to run when you saw a person or risk an ambush. That what you want? You'll get that, everyone running from each other especially if ill-equipped.

Even on the last day of a world it was abused. I watched people get killed over and over just coming to the town to talk to people on the final day before the game world restarted, they would say hi then a group of 4 would go destroy them. They came back and tried over and over to meet someone, that's when it started becoming stomach turning watching people abuse others for NO reason, we were all getting killed off the next day.

It wasn't friendly or fun. It was something I will avoid so personal experience taught me that if I want to invest in a character, it can't have perma death unless I'm playing the side that steals from others and outnumbers them, that's who wins in perma-death, those that stack the cards on their side, if they don't invest in their character and steal, they lose little effort. The only people that lose are the people who do things like answer questions in chat for other players instead of focusing only on combat and the quickest way to down someone, maybe not the most graceful or best on resources and stamina but the way to make the most damage as quickly as possible.

It's not the mechanic that is the problem if it would work as expected. It's the people that mess it up. Some people have miserable lives. They make little money, their personality is dull, they aren't very smart, they aren't particularly attractive and they are frankly mad at the world and waiting to take a dump on someone else because real life isn't fulfilling them. They may even have some mental issues, don't know why people think that "crazy" can't buy and play MMOS, there are no restrictions or test to get in, is there. Rather than work on themselves it's easier to turn on the game and get enjoyment making others just as miserable.

Anonymity online can bring out that beast in them. This should explain it for you that haven't experienced them or tried to defend people from them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTuhuon1j6U

Your tears are all the pay I'll ever need, that's all you need to know.

I'm pretty competitive so for reference any game that has an open PVP server on it, that's the one I join. I don't go the easy route and I've seen it abused in every game, there were none immune to it. You had people like me that would try to hold them back from hurting others but in all honesty it's time consuming to protect other people and eventually they just call in reinforcements because their entire guild are doing the same thing so you get outnumbered trying to be on the "good" side. You'll win one on one fights with them for 1/2 hour then all of a sudden 3 more people show up to help them until they can find enough people to kill you. It's just a matter of numbers.

 

  PsiKahn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 124

6/17/13 2:54:54 PM#246
Originally posted by greenreen

It doesn't work. I experienced it in Haven and Hearth.

Yes there were the random ISP errors which you think are covered but by their nature they are random. Sometimes YOUR server can be too swamped to respond too. Players shouldn't take a death for that and it's unknowable. My internet is up 99% of the time but some days I can disconnect every 2 hours just for 1 minute increments, that's enough time to get killed by a mob or player while reconnecting. I can only imagine it's storms somewhere else in the pipeline and they are disconnecting and reconnecting lines but there is no warning. Being punished for things out of your control are frustrating.

The puds rule when there is opportunity to be a pud. I've watched it firsthand. In WOW they killed lowbies nonstop even when I and a group of others protected them. If someone can be one shotted, there is no saving them, only attacking the attacker after the fact. Someone is still dead and gets to run back even when protected unless the protector proactively attacks everyone around the person they are protecting then creating the very thing trying to be avoided. Anyone who played WOW will also remember the rogues that just sat around at dungeon entrances killing people on the path there. Why? There was nothing to gain but bothering others and they did it alllllllllllllll night. And I spent allllllllll night many nights protecting other people and never advanced my character except for selling auctions during that time.

In Haven and Hearth there were puds too, people chasing in groups so that they would have advantage over smaller groups or solo players. They attacked my property, me trying to tame wildlife, anywhere I went was danger. It wasn't "fun" to look at everyone as an enemy that I encountered. I made very few friends in the game because it was smarter to run when you saw a person or risk an ambush. That what you want? You'll get that, everyone running from each other especially if ill-equipped.

Even on the last day of a world it was abused. I watched people get killed over and over just coming to the town to talk to people on the final day before the game world restarted, they would say hi then a group of 4 would go destroy them. They came back and tried over and over to meet someone, that's when it started becoming stomach turning watching people abuse others for NO reason, we were all getting killed off the next day.

It wasn't friendly or fun. It was something I will avoid so personal experience taught me that if I want to invest in a character, it can't have perma death unless I'm playing the side that steals from others and outnumbers them, that's who wins in perma-death, those that stack the cards on their side, if they don't invest in their character and steal, they lose little effort. The only people that lose are the people who do things like answer questions in chat for other players instead of focusing only on combat and the quickest way to down someone, maybe not the most graceful or best on resources and stamina but the way to make the most damage as quickly as possible.

It's not the mechanic that is the problem if it would work as expected. It's the people that mess it up. Some people have miserable lives. They make little money, their personality is dull, they aren't very smart, they aren't particularly attractive and they are frankly mad at the world and waiting to take a dump on someone else because real life isn't fulfilling them. They may even have some mental issues, don't know why people think that "crazy" can't buy and play MMOS, there are no restrictions or test to get in, is there. Rather than work on themselves it's easier to turn on the game and get enjoyment making others just as miserable.

Anonymity online can bring out that beast in them. This should explain it for you that haven't experienced them or tried to defend people from them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTuhuon1j6U

Your tears are all the pay I'll ever need, that's all you need to know.

I'm pretty competitive so for reference any game that has an open PVP server on it, that's the one I join. I don't go the easy route and I've seen it abused in every game, there were none immune to it. You had people like me that would try to hold them back from hurting others but in all honesty it's time consuming to protect other people and eventually they just call in reinforcements because their entire guild are doing the same thing so you get outnumbered trying to be on the "good" side. You'll win one on one fights with them for 1/2 hour then all of a sudden 3 more people show up to help them until they can find enough people to kill you. It's just a matter of numbers.

 

I'm interested to know why, in your opinion, in a game like H&H (which I don't know a lot about), the "good guys" weren't able to band together to destroy wanton PKers?  Would this have played out differently in a game where you have say 50-100 lives and were able to retaliate for your own death after getting PKed?  Also, how do you feel about something along the lines of the settlement/reputation system that's planned for Trials of Ascension, where commiting crimes against members of a settlement can put you on a kill-on-sight list for any members of that settlement or their NPC guards?  Do you think that would have any effect?

EDIT: I'd just like to point out that the griefing issue doesn't seem to be specifically endemic to PD MMOs.  In fact, I don't get the impression that the problem is itself more prevalent in them than it is in other games, though obviously there's more at stake.  I feel like there's got to be a way to balance that behavior without completely restricting PvP.

  greenreen

Elite Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1423

6/17/13 6:00:07 PM#247
Originally posted by PsiKahn
Originally posted by greenreen

It doesn't work. I experienced it in Haven and Hearth.

...snip

 

I'm interested to know why, in your opinion, in a game like H&H (which I don't know a lot about), the "good guys" weren't able to band together to destroy wanton PKers?  Would this have played out differently in a game where you have say 50-100 lives and were able to retaliate for your own death after getting PKed?  Also, how do you feel about something along the lines of the settlement/reputation system that's planned for Trials of Ascension, where commiting crimes against members of a settlement can put you on a kill-on-sight list for any members of that settlement or their NPC guards?  Do you think that would have any effect?

EDIT: I'd just like to point out that the griefing issue doesn't seem to be specifically endemic to PD MMOs.  In fact, I don't get the impression that the problem is itself more prevalent in them than it is in other games, though obviously there's more at stake.  I feel like there's got to be a way to balance that behavior without completely restricting PvP.

There were some people that banded together to fight the criminals.

Things that hurt them trying IMO were these things. Chat wasn't global so if you cried out for help, someone had to be really close. They had scent trails you could follow if crime was committed but you didn't move faster than your enemy so as long as they kept going, they were always a step ahead. I don't remember how many times I died playing H&H, it was probably under 50. The way the characters were built didn't help either, because there was so much grinding for things, if you focused on building a town, you weren't focused on fighting. That's why I mentioned that the thieves always win because they don't have to dedicate any time to building up crafting ability, instead they just build fighting ability and take what others have built.

Having waterways around the land, people could jump others by moving in boats going faster than them. If I was out and I saw a boat coming I immediately dropped what I was doing because the majority of the time they would be chasing me in seconds. Because you had to forage for things at the start that makes you extra vulnerable to marauders. There are plenty of victims I guess is the point. If you put 20 people together that leave 5 people at home to craft the town and armor and the rest of them go steal food and supplies from others, they did just fine, all it took was a boat to find people scavenging and you outnumber them. Those groups of marauders are people that have played together for awhile so they aren't day 1 gamers. One of the best things to get in the game was a mining node and the "bad guys" slurped those up ASAP to build stronger town walls and armors. Coming into the game midway, you were at a disadvantage for certain.

Trading for things usually meant you had to travel far because the totality of everything was player made. Can you guess which villages lived closest to the trading cities.... si senor o senora... the first settlers. Often you would have to tread near their settlements to get to what was claimed to be more neutral ground to even offer to barter for supplies or gear better than you could make. That means you had to travel farther to get what they can get travelling shorter distances, keeping in mind that every moment you are out is the potential to be ganked. I don't know how you combat headstart by first time players except having some sort of breakdown of gear except that too can be overcome with a large group pumping it out.

I think guards can be effective because they would be stagnant versus the player who wants to be doing something. I did once chase someone through scent trails that stole from one of my settlements. My neighbors were friendly and we worked together, some of them dedicated to fighting and some to crafting. I only got to meet them because they came to recruit me into their group. Even as close as I was, they didn't know what happened in my settlement. Thing was, when I got robbed that time I was in a cave so I come out and everything is fresh scents and I thought it worthy to chase because they couldn't be too far away and didn't request help from the neighbors for someone so close. I chased them all the way across the map, them continuing to move until finally I caught them offline and summoned them to kill them. In that time that I was gone from my settlement I got robbed by another person. They could have been working together? Unknown because I didn't ask. One of my neighbors did come by and pick up some of the scents but they didn't chase after I returned, they just wanted to fiddle with the mechanic. 

I guess the moral is that while you are chasing one attacker, you open yourself up to more of them, guards could help something like that situation but only to watch over their property short-term. I do remember chasing that person taking all day and the scents would expire so there was a time limit to it too so you couldn't just put it off until a week later. Bounties that stuck on the character would make more sense to me. You want someone to want to play the game but people like to logoff too and not be there 24/7 just watching their stuff. That's something I can't understand about the games that let people get attacked while offline. Isn't that nerve wracking to sit around in real life OCD-ing about whether or not your character is being beat up while you take a shower lol 

Right, I think the problem of griefing is in every game - it just burns brighter when you play on open PVP servers and don't follow basic sportsmanship rules like - someone engaged with a mob - wait until the mob is dead to hit them.

  ThoranTW

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/13
Posts: 4

7/02/13 9:02:36 AM#248
If lag or things that were out of my control were of no concern then I personally would love a MMO which permanantly bans your IP when you die once. I would rather play a game with an end than an MMO that only ends when people get bored of it and leave it as an empty husk of a game that has been forgoten. And ever since watching SAO, I have been looking for games that bring me as close to that as possible. Just my humble opinion.
  PsiKahn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 124

7/02/13 9:57:28 AM#249
Originally posted by ThoranTW
If lag or things that were out of my control were of no concern then I personally would love a MMO which permanantly bans your IP when you die once. I would rather play a game with an end than an MMO that only ends when people get bored of it and leave it as an empty husk of a game that has been forgoten. And ever since watching SAO, I have been looking for games that bring me as close to that as possible. Just my humble opinion.

It's interesting how SAO seems to have opened a lot of people up to the idea of permadeath in mmos... maybe couching it in a conventional narrative shows how there is at least potential to make the narrative and drama more meaningful in a game context.  There are quite a few SAO fans on the Trials of Ascension boards who've heard about it because of the incidental similarities and I guess a cross-posting somewhere.  As for banning IPs, that's been bandied about on those forums too, though I don't think the devs are considering it.  It's an interesting idea, though it doesn't appeal to at the moment.  It does raise an interesting point about how an MMO can't really be experienced again the same way like a single-player game, but that's a whole other conversation topic.

  ElderRat

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/10
Posts: 909

7/02/13 10:00:12 AM#250
Originally posted by PsiKahn
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by PsiKahn

I can't say factually that PD is a good idea, all I am saying is that's it's worth exploring.

Dunno; how to you explain the rise of "save early/save often" in three-deaths video games, clear back in the 80s?

Why wasn't Donkey Kong played with a single death and no saves? Surely some video game producer somewhere must've tried it, and found it very unpopular--because adding a "save the game before you try anything really hard" became an industry-wide video game standard, somehow.

I submit that game producers did try, early on, rather a lot of compromises between /rawrhardcore and /joecasual, and ended up with the sort of compromise solutions that left the smallest number of players ragequitting.

A death-risk "price point", sort of.

I think I understand what you're getting at.  Yes, admittedly the single-player game sector has moved decidely away from "permadeath" over the years, though exceptions remain.  But I do think a persistent world game has a lot more to gain from a perma-death type system than does a single-player game, because of the "economy" of resources that players accrue (including wealth, items, and skills) and how those accruals afffect the other players in the game.

I for one would not play one.. kind of interested to see how many people would pay money for one. I guess few. F2p might be an option though.

Currently bored with MMO's.

  PsiKahn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 124

7/02/13 10:09:04 AM#251
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by PsiKahn
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by PsiKahn

I can't say factually that PD is a good idea, all I am saying is that's it's worth exploring.

Dunno; how to you explain the rise of "save early/save often" in three-deaths video games, clear back in the 80s?

Why wasn't Donkey Kong played with a single death and no saves? Surely some video game producer somewhere must've tried it, and found it very unpopular--because adding a "save the game before you try anything really hard" became an industry-wide video game standard, somehow.

I submit that game producers did try, early on, rather a lot of compromises between /rawrhardcore and /joecasual, and ended up with the sort of compromise solutions that left the smallest number of players ragequitting.

A death-risk "price point", sort of.

I think I understand what you're getting at.  Yes, admittedly the single-player game sector has moved decidely away from "permadeath" over the years, though exceptions remain.  But I do think a persistent world game has a lot more to gain from a perma-death type system than does a single-player game, because of the "economy" of resources that players accrue (including wealth, items, and skills) and how those accruals afffect the other players in the game.

I for one would not play one.. kind of interested to see how many people would pay money for one. I guess few. F2p might be an option though.

I think there is a small, but significant, contingency of people who would be ready to try a pd game out of the gate.  But if it was well-designed and people started reporting back that it was legitimately fun, wouldn't you at least give it a shot?  Be it f2p or just a free trial, seems like there wouldn't be much to lose.  At worst you could walk away with a well-informed criticism of the game.

  ElderRat

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/10
Posts: 909

7/02/13 10:16:40 AM#252
Originally posted by PsiKahn
Originally posted by ElderRat
Originally posted by PsiKahn
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by PsiKahn

I can't say factually that PD is a good idea, all I am saying is that's it's worth exploring.

Dunno; how to you explain the rise of "save early/save often" in three-deaths video games, clear back in the 80s?

Why wasn't Donkey Kong played with a single death and no saves? Surely some video game producer somewhere must've tried it, and found it very unpopular--because adding a "save the game before you try anything really hard" became an industry-wide video game standard, somehow.

I submit that game producers did try, early on, rather a lot of compromises between /rawrhardcore and /joecasual, and ended up with the sort of compromise solutions that left the smallest number of players ragequitting.

A death-risk "price point", sort of.

I think I understand what you're getting at.  Yes, admittedly the single-player game sector has moved decidely away from "permadeath" over the years, though exceptions remain.  But I do think a persistent world game has a lot more to gain from a perma-death type system than does a single-player game, because of the "economy" of resources that players accrue (including wealth, items, and skills) and how those accruals afffect the other players in the game.

I for one would not play one.. kind of interested to see how many people would pay money for one. I guess few. F2p might be an option though.

I think there is a small, but significant, contingency of people who would be ready to try a pd game out of the gate.  But if it was well-designed and people started reporting back that it was legitimately fun, wouldn't you at least give it a shot?  Be it f2p or just a free trial, seems like there wouldn't be much to lose.  At worst you could walk away with a well-informed criticism of the game.

To be truthful most likely not. I like the option of deciding whether or not to continue playing a character and do not want an unfortunate situation or even worse a game lag to take that decision away from me. I have tried D3's hardcore and must confess I like the tension - not unlike playing EVE and going into low or null sec.  But in EVE you always have a clone.  To just lose the charater on death is not what I like.  To expand upon your premise - what if it was full pvp and you got ganked and then your character is no more?   Mostly though I have seen enough little bits of game lag in most games and just one glitch could cost you a level XX character. The higher the level, the worse the cost. Is there a niche for it, sure I'll agree. Last time I checked though niche games were a low priority for the major companies.

 

Currently bored with MMO's.

  PsiKahn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 124

7/02/13 10:24:37 AM#253

 

I think there is a small, but significant, contingency of people who would be ready to try a pd game out of the gate.  But if it was well-designed and people started reporting back that it was legitimately fun, wouldn't you at least give it a shot?  Be it f2p or just a free trial, seems like there wouldn't be much to lose.  At worst you could walk away with a well-informed criticism of the game.

To be truthful most likely not. I like the option of deciding whether or not to continue playing a character and do not want an unfortunate situation or even worse a game lag to take that decision away from me. I have tried D3's hardcore and must confess I like the tension - not unlike playing EVE and going into low or null sec.  But in EVE you always have a clone.  To just lose the charater on death is not what I like.  To expand upon your premise - what if it was full pvp and you got ganked and then your character is no more?   Mostly though I have seen enough little bits of game lag in most games and just one glitch could cost you a level XX character. The higher the level, the worse the cost. Is there a niche for it, sure I'll agree. Last time I checked though niche games were a low priority for the major companies.

 

That's why I'm in favor of something like a 100-life system rather than a 1-life system.  It let's you get a bit deeper into things rather than being just one-and-done because you happened to aggro a powerful mob by accident or lag during PvP.  But yeah, you're definitely not gonna see the major companies jumping on this bandwagon any time soon.  It's gonna be the little guy or nobody.

  Rusque

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1650

7/02/13 10:37:04 AM#254

The problem with permadeath is that is encourages timid gameplay.

It's bragging rights to show your decked out max level character who hasn't died, but the journey to get there is invariably much safer than what normal games allow for.

In a normal game, I see a group of mobs, I assess what abilities my character has, in what order I can derive the best synergy from them and charge into that group knowing that I can try a different combination or improve my gameplay on the next try should I fail.

I'm sure many (if not all) people have at some point pulled mobs just to see how many they could pull and kill without dying.

But in a permadeath game (and yes, this is exactly how they are played - I've played them, I've seen others play them, this is how it's always done) people avoid danger and repeat easy content they know their character can do.

Anyone can just stay somewhere safe and grind easy mobs until they are sufficiently powerful to tackle a greater challenge. Now, if a game were to come out where every single fight is dangerous regardless of how much caution the player puts in, then you might have a decent permadeath game. But at it stands, it's basically who has the patience to play below the edge of their character's abilities for longer periods of time.

  PsiKahn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 124

7/02/13 10:46:11 AM#255
Originally posted by Rusque

The problem with permadeath is that is encourages timid gameplay.

It's bragging rights to show your decked out max level character who hasn't died, but the journey to get there is invariably much safer than what normal games allow for.

In a normal game, I see a group of mobs, I assess what abilities my character has, in what order I can derive the best synergy from them and charge into that group knowing that I can try a different combination or improve my gameplay on the next try should I fail.

I'm sure many (if not all) people have at some point pulled mobs just to see how many they could pull and kill without dying.

But in a permadeath game (and yes, this is exactly how they are played - I've played them, I've seen others play them, this is how it's always done) people avoid danger and repeat easy content they know their character can do.

Anyone can just stay somewhere safe and grind easy mobs until they are sufficiently powerful to tackle a greater challenge. Now, if a game were to come out where every single fight is dangerous regardless of how much caution the player puts in, then you might have a decent permadeath game. But at it stands, it's basically who has the patience to play below the edge of their character's abilities for longer periods of time.

It certainly does encourage a more conservative playstyle, but like you say there is an allure to gaining access to things that others won't if the game is properly designed to incentivize that.  And I think what you say about making every fight dangerous is a good call.  I mean I know with ToA the devs have said that their intent is to generally squeeze the difference between high level and low level (though really it's not level-based, it's skill based), such that a low-level character could kill a stronger character with smart play and sloppy play by their opponent, and I imagine the same applies to mobs.  This makes a lot of sense to me.  They also are ditching conning, so you wouldn't know a particular mobs strength unless you've fought it before or know someone who has, and even so that wouldn't account for variance from mob to mob within the same type.  But yeah I wouldn't underestimate the bragging rights incentive.  In a pd sandbox, I feel like that carries a lot of weight.

  Quirhid

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

7/02/13 10:51:07 AM#256
I felt no different playing action RPGs on hardcore mode, or rogue-mode games. Irritation regarding ironman mode in XCOM. What does that mean?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

7/02/13 11:02:39 AM#257
Originally posted by ElderRat
 

To be truthful most likely not. I like the option of deciding whether or not to continue playing a character and do not want an unfortunate situation or even worse a game lag to take that decision away from me. I have tried D3's hardcore and must confess I like the tension - not unlike playing EVE and going into low or null sec.  But in EVE you always have a clone.  To just lose the charater on death is not what I like.  To expand upon your premise - what if it was full pvp and you got ganked and then your character is no more?   Mostly though I have seen enough little bits of game lag in most games and just one glitch could cost you a level XX character. The higher the level, the worse the cost. Is there a niche for it, sure I'll agree. Last time I checked though niche games were a low priority for the major companies.

 

It is not one or zero. You can put a PD option in a game, like D3. And D3 stat shows that 9% of the characters are PD. Given that there are 67.1M characters created .. 9% is roughly 6M. Given that you can have only 10 characters at most .. there are at least 600k players who have tried PD.

The number is probably closer to 1.2M since i doubt most will have 2 for each class.

Plus, D3 is certainly NOT a niche game and it has a PD option. Personally i don't play PD and never will, but D3 proves that a PD option in a AAA game can work.

  PsiKahn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 124

7/02/13 11:05:41 AM#258
Originally posted by Quirhid
I felt no different playing action RPGs on hardcore mode, or rogue-mode games. Irritation regarding ironman mode in XCOM. What does that mean?

I think it means you don't like action rpgs on hardcore mode, rogue-mode games, or ironman mode in XCOM.  I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at...

  ElderRat

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/10
Posts: 909

7/02/13 11:13:11 AM#259
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ElderRat
 

To be truthful most likely not. I like the option of deciding whether or not to continue playing a character and do not want an unfortunate situation or even worse a game lag to take that decision away from me. I have tried D3's hardcore and must confess I like the tension - not unlike playing EVE and going into low or null sec.  But in EVE you always have a clone.  To just lose the charater on death is not what I like.  To expand upon your premise - what if it was full pvp and you got ganked and then your character is no more?   Mostly though I have seen enough little bits of game lag in most games and just one glitch could cost you a level XX character. The higher the level, the worse the cost. Is there a niche for it, sure I'll agree. Last time I checked though niche games were a low priority for the major companies.

 

It is not one or zero. You can put a PD option in a game, like D3. And D3 stat shows that 9% of the characters are PD. Given that there are 67.1M characters created .. 9% is roughly 6M. Given that you can have only 10 characters at most .. there are at least 600k players who have tried PD.

The number is probably closer to 1.2M since i doubt most will have 2 for each class.

Plus, D3 is certainly NOT a niche game and it has a PD option. Personally i don't play PD and never will, but D3 proves that a PD option in a AAA game can work.

as an option not as a main point of the game. That I would agree to. Heck most people don't even want to play non-consensual pvp, lose a character on one death? As a main feature of the game? Nope - don't see that happening. As a server in the game that you can choose to play on - sure I could see that but not as a main feature.

Currently bored with MMO's.

  Sacria

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 52

7/02/13 12:08:51 PM#260

I like the idea but it wouldn't work in the traditionel mmorpg a lot of things would have to change for it to work. Plus if killing other players would be possible the penalties for doing so would have to be extremely harsh and the level grind cannot be as long as it typically is in mmorpgs because having to spent a full week or more ingame (that's 168 hours ) to reach max level if something unforseen happens is too long (not counting time it takes to gear up etc).

 

But at the moment it would be better if they worked on gameplay in mmorpgs in stead, most of them have just are just plain grindfests atm with unappealing pvp and pve.

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