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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » "I think we killed a genre"

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48 posts found
  Hatefull

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/04
Posts: 764

Your tears make my gun work better.

7/02/13 7:24:49 AM#21
Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
Originally posted by Brenics

Over a decade ago, a team at Blizzard took up accessibility as its mantra and made a game called World of Warcraft. A man named Mark Kern led them through countless UI iterations in search of the easiest and most intuitive interface; he directed them to build huge numbers of quests, ensuring the player never had to worry about where to go next.

Now though, Kern works at Red 5 Studios on a game called Firefall. And he worries he helped Blizzard make a terrible mistake.

“It worked,” he says. “Players came in droves, millions of them. But at what cost? Sometimes I look at WoW and think ‘what have we done?’ I think I know. I think we killed a genre.”

http://tinyurl.com/mqaccuw

Great read and agree 100% with him.

Comments?

 

 

Hell...I've been saying this for years...but all the WoW fans and other casuals brushed it off as just being a bitter vet. I mean, I've only been playing games (MMORPG's 14 years) since 1982...what would I know. ;) Look at my forum handle.

Edit: Misread.  Should not post before drinking coffee.

If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  BizkitNL

Old School

Joined: 12/29/02
Posts: 2318

"Free to play, pay to win""

7/02/13 7:25:28 AM#22

I've said it before and I'lle say it again:

WoW didn't kill the genre, players did.

We have no one to blame but ourselves.

 

That said, weird article. WoW was a completely different game back then.

Feel like trying Planetside 2? Get a headstart with the starter kit!

  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1954

7/02/13 7:30:16 AM#23
Originally posted by Kuro1n
Originally posted by Thane

he killed a genre?

jesus fucking christ, could you be more theatralic plz 

what blizz did is make a genre great.

before WoW we had no players online in our games (maybe 200 at nite on a huge world server.... doesnt work)

they made the masses play mmos.

without blizz this genre would be a niche.

what firefall is doing now  is trying to get some attention, since they screwed their game and they desperately need people to play it.

Bullshit. They fucked the genre. Many games had plenty of players before WoW, look at both Tibia and Lineage 2. L2 had sieges with 100s of players fighting each other. Tibia had worlds that might not have been huge but ~850 on at night was normal, you had to queue to get online. Also yes they made the masses play the MMOs, that might be great from a business perspective but for the old community there are no games left, if you took someone from back then and put them in our time they would not understand wtf happened. Sure they might enjoy the games for a while but they will be wanting the good old MMOs that aren't around anymore (not really at least).

Compared to how many people play MMOS now the amount of people playing during days of Tibia and Lienag 2 were like drop in an ocean.

I am sorry MMOS wen't mainstream and allowed more people to enjoy gaming. Didn't know MMO genre was suppossed to revolve around players like you for eternity.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  ozmono

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/12/06
Posts: 1079

7/02/13 7:33:08 AM#24
Originally posted by BizkitNL

I've said it before and I'lle say it again:

WoW didn't kill the genre, players did.

We have no one to blame but ourselves.

That kind of thinking is even more flawed than the OP's. When players blame themselves for the perceived faults in a successful genre it generally suggest that they are lacking some very basic logic or that when they talk about themselves as a part of the group (“ourselves”) they are really pointing the finger at the majority from an isolated position.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3561

7/02/13 7:39:04 AM#25

     It looks like some are trying to redefine what many of us old vets called "the genre"..  Maybe I'm wrong, but the genre I come from started off with paper, pencil and a lot of funny looking dice.. I grew up starting in 1979 playing AD&D, and loving the RPG experience.. 20 years later I joined a small group of friends in a new online game that some might recognize "EverQuest".. This was the next best thing to getting together each weekend playing AD&D.. There was no freaking quest line breadcrumbs to follow.. Virtually any target (even friend) could be accidently targeted, especially NPC's.. Death actually hurt.. Level progression was slow and rewarding.. How many actually enjoy becoming a God overnight?  There was no private (instanced) zones.. Learn to be social in the public zones are GET OUT!!!!..  Friends list actually meant something..

     What many want to redefine what the genre is today I don't recognize.. To me it looks like a bunch of console playing arcade gamers.. To say WoW saved the genre is like saying McDonald's saved the restaurant industry.. I look at today's games (WoW, Rift, TOR) to name a few as Borg.. They will assimilate us, or try, resistance is futile.. I have stopped paying to support any of these games.. Until I see a true continuation of the RPG genre, I'll keep my wallet closed..

  BizkitNL

Old School

Joined: 12/29/02
Posts: 2318

"Free to play, pay to win""

7/02/13 7:45:25 AM#26
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by BizkitNL

I've said it before and I'lle say it again:

WoW didn't kill the genre, players did.

We have no one to blame but ourselves.

That kind of thinking is even more flawed than the OP's. When players blame themselves for the perceived faults in a successful genre it generally suggest that they are lacking some very basic logic or that when they talk about themselves as a part of the group (“ourselves”) they are really pointing the finger at the majority from an isolated position.

It's the players that massively subbed to WoW. It's the players that kept flocking to WoW clones. It's the players that keep those games profitable.

The developer makes a game. When hardly anyone plays it, the game "fails" and it's back to the drawing board.

 

It's the player's fault. I can't get more obvious than that.

Feel like trying Planetside 2? Get a headstart with the starter kit!

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1876

7/02/13 7:45:31 AM#27

I'd say the copy cats killed the genre, not WoW. WoW boosted the genre, put it in the PC gaming spotlight and attracted millions of new players.

Everyone looking to make a quick buck by imitating WoW killed the genre.

  Derros

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/09
Posts: 1026

7/02/13 7:50:11 AM#28

What I would like to hear, and probably never will, is what he thinks they should have done differently to make the game successful, but not "ruin" the genre. 

 

Less intuitive UI?

More grinding?

fewer but better quests?

Longer time to level?

 

 

  Hatefull

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/04
Posts: 764

Your tears make my gun work better.

7/02/13 7:51:21 AM#29
Originally posted by Lokberg
Originally posted by GrumpyHobbit
Originally posted by Hatefull
Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
Originally posted by Brenics

Over a decade ago, a team at Blizzard took up accessibility as its mantra and made a game called World of Warcraft. A man named Mark Kern led them through countless UI iterations in search of the easiest and most intuitive interface; he directed them to build huge numbers of quests, ensuring the player never had to worry about where to go next.

Now though, Kern works at Red 5 Studios on a game called Firefall. And he worries he helped Blizzard make a terrible mistake.

“It worked,” he says. “Players came in droves, millions of them. But at what cost? Sometimes I look at WoW and think ‘what have we done?’ I think I know. I think we killed a genre.”

http://tinyurl.com/mqaccuw

Great read and agree 100% with him.

Comments?

 

 

Hell...I've been saying this for years...but all the WoW fans and other casuals brushed it off as just being a bitter vet. I mean, I've only been playing games (MMORPG's 14 years) since 1982...what would I know. ;) Look at my forum handle.

MMORPG's did not exist in 1982.  Massive Multiplayer ON-LINE Role Playing Games.  And that is bloody well longer than 14 years also.   Go sober up and come back when you have a clue what you are talking about.

Who's been drinking?

He has been playing games since 1982 (MMORPGs for the last 14)...you need to learn to read before you get all up and angry with someone.

Stupidity isn't always genetic!

Grumpy damn man you beat me to it ^_^

Be glad that he did, he will be receiving a surprise.  At any rate I edited the post.

If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  BillMurphy

Managing Editor

Joined: 7/28/06
Posts: 1806

7/02/13 7:53:16 AM#30

I'm just going to post in here and facepalm a little bit... why would you link to an outside site that links back to an article originally posted  by Mark here as its source and one that was all over our front page on Friday?  

Here's the original article folks:

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/7540/Mark-Kern-Have-MMOs-Become-Too-Easy.html

  killahh

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 455

As famous as the unknown soldier

7/02/13 8:00:26 AM#31
All I can say is that of all the people I know, in the guilds I have been in and keep in touch with over the years, with the exception of eve, Noone is playing anything atm, and everyone is waiting for a game that does not hold your hand.

So, wrecked a genre? You bet they did. Else we would be playing.

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  Hatefull

Novice Member

Joined: 6/09/04
Posts: 764

Your tears make my gun work better.

7/02/13 8:01:11 AM#32
Originally posted by Rydeson

     It looks like some are trying to redefine what many of us old vets called "the genre"..  Maybe I'm wrong, but the genre I come from started off with paper, pencil and a lot of funny looking dice.. I grew up starting in 1979 playing AD&D, and loving the RPG experience.. 20 years later I joined a small group of friends in a new online game that some might recognize "EverQuest".. This was the next best thing to getting together each weekend playing AD&D.. There was no freaking quest line breadcrumbs to follow.. Virtually any target (even friend) could be accidently targeted, especially NPC's.. Death actually hurt.. Level progression was slow and rewarding.. How many actually enjoy becoming a God overnight?  There was no private (instanced) zones.. Learn to be social in the public zones are GET OUT!!!!..  Friends list actually meant something..

     What many want to redefine what the genre is today I don't recognize.. To me it looks like a bunch of console playing arcade gamers.. To say WoW saved the genre is like saying McDonald's saved the restaurant industry.. I look at today's games (WoW, Rift, TOR) to name a few as Borg.. They will assimilate us, or try, resistance is futile.. I have stopped paying to support any of these games.. Until I see a true continuation of the RPG genre, I'll keep my wallet closed..

Even if a bit hostile, you make good points.  I did not start gaming until 1980, PnP and I did not even own a computer until 2003, when I discovered SWG.  Being a SWG nerd since the movies released, I had to give it a go.  Between then and now, things have, in my opinion gone down hill.  It is no longer about the journey it is all destination.

However like someone else pointed out, I would not just point the finger at anyone thing.  WoW was and still is a major player in the industry and I don't see that changing any time soon, however their audience, the ones that will pay for re-hashed crap, for the clone market and everything else bad about gaming will keep the same low standards coming back again and again.

At the end of the day, Blizz, Trion, EA, SOE, etc are all in the business of entertainment, and like all big business they are going to go where the cash is and right now, people are blowing up cash shops, and paying subscription prices to play this junk.  We (as a community) need to change the mind of the working dad and mom that only have a few hours at most in the evening to play.  I don't see that happening.  

So until an independant studio comes along, and decides to go their own way (this has been done btw, look around) and make a new game nothing like WoW, or its many clones (also been done, just not supported) we are stuck with this business model.

We may never recapture what we lost when they tried to bring PnP to on line.  Like it or lump it, it is all about the cash.

If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  ozmono

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/12/06
Posts: 1079

7/02/13 8:03:47 AM#33
Originally posted by BizkitNL
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by BizkitNL

I've said it before and I'lle say it again:

WoW didn't kill the genre, players did.

We have no one to blame but ourselves.

That kind of thinking is even more flawed than the OP's. When players blame themselves for the perceived faults in a successful genre it generally suggest that they are lacking some very basic logic or that when they talk about themselves as a part of the group (“ourselves”) they are really pointing the finger at the majority from an isolated position.

It's the players that massively subbed to WoW. It's the players that kept flocking to WoW clones. It's the players that keep those games profitable.

The developer makes a game. When hardly anyone plays it, the game "fails" and it's back to the drawing board.

 

It's the player's fault. I can't get more obvious than that.

You are very obvious but I'm not sure that is your intention. Be honest, the genre isn't dead is it? The only thing that happened is it stopped appealing to you and now you hold ill will towards the majority whom still enjoy it. If the demand was stronger than games like WoW (which I think is getting there but awhile off yet) than those same companies that tried to clone WoW would make other games.

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 3188

I actually still like MMORPGs

7/02/13 8:05:11 AM#34
Anyone who doesn't see this as a ploy to get some publicity for Firefall isn't paying attention.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 6441

7/02/13 8:06:24 AM#35

I think this is just a clever way of marketing Firefall.

Just like the other "Dev journals" from Kern - just a way to plug Firefall.

If he didn't mention his game at all it would be a different story.

 

  vesuvias

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/13/04
Posts: 126

7/02/13 9:06:26 AM#36
Originally posted by Hatefull
Originally posted by Rydeson

     It looks like some are trying to redefine what many of us old vets called "the genre"..  Maybe I'm wrong, but the genre I come from started off with paper, pencil and a lot of funny looking dice.. I grew up starting in 1979 playing AD&D, and loving the RPG experience.. 20 years later I joined a small group of friends in a new online game that some might recognize "EverQuest".. This was the next best thing to getting together each weekend playing AD&D.. There was no freaking quest line breadcrumbs to follow.. Virtually any target (even friend) could be accidently targeted, especially NPC's.. Death actually hurt.. Level progression was slow and rewarding.. How many actually enjoy becoming a God overnight?  There was no private (instanced) zones.. Learn to be social in the public zones are GET OUT!!!!..  Friends list actually meant something..

     What many want to redefine what the genre is today I don't recognize.. To me it looks like a bunch of console playing arcade gamers.. To say WoW saved the genre is like saying McDonald's saved the restaurant industry.. I look at today's games (WoW, Rift, TOR) to name a few as Borg.. They will assimilate us, or try, resistance is futile.. I have stopped paying to support any of these games.. Until I see a true continuation of the RPG genre, I'll keep my wallet closed..

Even if a bit hostile, you make good points.  I did not start gaming until 1980, PnP and I did not even own a computer until 2003, when I discovered SWG.  Being a SWG nerd since the movies released, I had to give it a go.  Between then and now, things have, in my opinion gone down hill.  It is no longer about the journey it is all destination.

However like someone else pointed out, I would not just point the finger at anyone thing.  WoW was and still is a major player in the industry and I don't see that changing any time soon, however their audience, the ones that will pay for re-hashed crap, for the clone market and everything else bad about gaming will keep the same low standards coming back again and again.

At the end of the day, Blizz, Trion, EA, SOE, etc are all in the business of entertainment, and like all big business they are going to go where the cash is and right now, people are blowing up cash shops, and paying subscription prices to play this junk.  We (as a community) need to change the mind of the working dad and mom that only have a few hours at most in the evening to play.  I don't see that happening.  

So until an independant studio comes along, and decides to go their own way (this has been done btw, look around) and make a new game nothing like WoW, or its many clones (also been done, just not supported) we are stuck with this business model.

We may never recapture what we lost when they tried to bring PnP to on line.  Like it or lump it, it is all about the cash.

Nothing was lost except your suspension of disbelief. This grand illusion that the genre was a pancea of freedom and fantastic open world adventure at the begining because of these "hardcore" mechanics is just that... an illusion. You point relies on a grand assuption of "why" these games "felt" more alive. It had nothing to do with mind boggling, tedious, time wasting, "no sane person would waste that much time" mechanics. It was precisely because we didn't as a community have a good grasp of the exact mechanics and as result we were "free" to imagine it the way we wanted it. We likened it to the PnP days of old and "assumed" that a artificial world controled by artificial rules was just as reasonable and open to adventure as our PnP worlds controled by real intelligences.

And they weren't, they never were. No reasonable PnP GM would ever have you enter a dungeoun and imediately do a "camp check". You would never sit murdering the same mob over and over again on a predictable spawn timer, waiting for you to roll the right value on the loot drop table to get the perfect item. You conversations with a NPC would never have been as stupid as picking apart their canned response and trying to re enter the right "keyword". 

It was inevitable that these worlds would devolve into what they actually were, a precisely known bunch of arbitraty mechanics. We don't fight dragons to save princesses, we fight enrage timers to get +x DPS. This is why you hate the genre now. The one things I give Brad McQuaid credit for in EQ was his insistence that the exact mechanics and numbers never really be revealed and should always be a secret from the players. He thought if we knew the exact numerics of what "+12 armor" did , then the game would simply devolve into "munchkin" type play. And on that he was right. But this devolution was inevitable. Players were going to test the world and figure this stuff out anyway. This was always the inevitable result.

The crux of whole issues lies in the fact that an artificial intelligence will never have the ability to mold the experience enough around the players, individually or community wise, to keep our suspension of disbelief. The state of the art isn't anywhere near intelligent enough to craft an actual moving adventure for us. WoW accepted this and at least tried to make the genre tolerable to still "play" by eliminating the mechanics that simply were not fun.

The current genre isn't a "real" virtual world, we are decades away from AI that could make such a thing for us. But that doesn't mean we can't have fun in a virtual "like" world. Not having fun in this genre simple because it isn't "real" enough is only hurting yourself. The ideal MMORPG isn't being keept off the shelf because of WoW or its clones. It's not possible to simulate the PnP experience with enough detail yet. We have almost an "uncanny valley" type situation here where the closer we get the more flaws we notice. Eventually we will have the compute resources and possibly AI smart enough to get pretty close. In the interum there is nothing wrong with playing games with other people that are fun, despite or even because, we know the precise mechanics. It's not the genre you wanted or expected but it is and can still be a great deal of fun.

 

  DeVoDeVo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/13
Posts: 89

7/02/13 9:13:09 AM#37
Originally posted by killahh
All I can say is that of all the people I know, in the guilds I have been in and keep in touch with over the years, with the exception of eve, Noone is playing anything atm, and everyone is waiting for a game that does not hold your hand.

So, wrecked a genre? You bet they did. Else we would be playing.

Is there a problem with games like EVE, Mortal Online and Darkfall?

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1906

7/02/13 9:14:03 AM#38
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Anyone who doesn't see this as a ploy to get some publicity for Firefall isn't paying attention.

^ Pretty much this ^

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

7/02/13 9:22:50 AM#39
Originally posted by Kuro1n
Originally posted by Thane

he killed a genre?

jesus fucking christ, could you be more theatralic plz 

what blizz did is make a genre great.

before WoW we had no players online in our games (maybe 200 at nite on a huge world server.... doesnt work)

they made the masses play mmos.

without blizz this genre would be a niche.

what firefall is doing now  is trying to get some attention, since they screwed their game and they desperately need people to play it.

Bullshit. They fucked the genre. Many games had plenty of players before WoW, look at both Tibia and Lineage 2. L2 had sieges with 100s of players fighting each other. Tibia had worlds that might not have been huge but ~850 on at night was normal, you had to queue to get online. Also yes they made the masses play the MMOs, that might be great from a business perspective but for the old community there are no games left, if you took someone from back then and put them in our time they would not understand wtf happened. Sure they might enjoy the games for a while but they will be wanting the good old MMOs that aren't around anymore (not really at least).

With WoW it catapult a generation of players who demanded more easy gameplay and fast rewards fast lvling lesser timesink and safezones.

So partly WoW started this but it gave the gamers a platform for the decline of the whole genre in general.

I blame in last 4 years mainly the community for decline and small part the developers/publishers.

  Kuro1n

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 779

7/02/13 9:23:31 AM#40
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Kuro1n
Originally posted by Thane

he killed a genre?

jesus fucking christ, could you be more theatralic plz 

what blizz did is make a genre great.

before WoW we had no players online in our games (maybe 200 at nite on a huge world server.... doesnt work)

they made the masses play mmos.

without blizz this genre would be a niche.

what firefall is doing now  is trying to get some attention, since they screwed their game and they desperately need people to play it.

Bullshit. They fucked the genre. Many games had plenty of players before WoW, look at both Tibia and Lineage 2. L2 had sieges with 100s of players fighting each other. Tibia had worlds that might not have been huge but ~850 on at night was normal, you had to queue to get online. Also yes they made the masses play the MMOs, that might be great from a business perspective but for the old community there are no games left, if you took someone from back then and put them in our time they would not understand wtf happened. Sure they might enjoy the games for a while but they will be wanting the good old MMOs that aren't around anymore (not really at least).

Compared to how many people play MMOS now the amount of people playing during days of Tibia and Lienag 2 were like drop in an ocean.

I am sorry MMOS wen't mainstream and allowed more people to enjoy gaming. Didn't know MMO genre was suppossed to revolve around players like you for eternity.

Yeah because gaming itself exploded and became very popular. WoW helped exposing the masses to the MMO genre but they aren't the ones that made it so everyone plays games. Also just because something is easily accessible and popular doesn't mean it's good. Look at McDonalds.

By the way, never said they should have it revolving around me and those of mine, but having something at all to play for the older generation of gamers who liked the genre before it became all silver platter crap would be appreciated.

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