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General Discussion  » Will F2P ruin this game?

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70 posts found
  Notimeforbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/13
Posts: 297

7/01/13 12:17:19 PM#41

It's actually quite unbelievable how transparent these companies have become with their greed.  They use the F2P model because they make more money with it - plain and simple.  It has nothing to do with "survival in this economy."  It has absolutely nothing to do with that.  They were making plenty of money with the subscription models, until people got bored with the same gameplay, release after release.

Wrap your head around this:

It costs money to innovate.  It costs money to study and implement new design.  Why?  Because that sort of thing is like practicing basketball.  The best players are the best because they practice their asses off.  But, when designers practice - they practice while on the clock - which means the companies have to pay them.  That costs money.

So - the reason they call it a business model is because that is what they are focused on.  Subscriptions don't work, because they continue to make the same game over and over again... and people don't want to buy that product.  They already have that product.

So instead of reinventing the genre, they milk it for everything it is worth.  In other words - their mindset isn't that people are tired of the same old game... people are tired of paying for the same old thing.  So - they change the way you pay for the game you've already played.  People are much more willing to spend $3, six times, than they are spending $15 one time.  As a result, you spend more money than you should.

I realized the scam when I was playing APB Reloaded.  I played it for about a year and spent at least $600 on it.  Now, the point here isn't that I wasted money on a crappy game.  I happen to like the game, and different strokes for different folks.  The point is I was paying exponentially more money for the same experience I would have gotten with a subscription model.  To be fair, however, despite all of its faults, APB Reloaded isn't you standard MMO affair - which is why I played it in the first place.  So for me, I would have rather the money that inevitably goes somewhere... to go to something different.  I digress.

It doesn't matter what company or what game any sort of F2P business model is utilized under.  It's a scam.  I can't believe it's even legal.  People say, "I'm okay with it as long as it's only cosmetic."  Well, that's the worst kind!  That's exactly how they get you.  Ever wonder why the only way you can get a decent looking suit of armor is when you pay $$$ for it?  They do it on purpose.  They purposefully make the crappy content as part of the free experience.

On top of it all, you can't even just buy the thing you want.  OH NO!  They price these things strategically.  Say you want a cool suit of armor.  It looks awesome.  And it's all you want out of the entire catalogue.  Well, it costs $12.  Okay... "No problem." you say to yourself.  "It's less than I would pay for a sub anyway, and it'll be my purchase for this month."  Well, great... except you can't just outright buy it.  You have to buy credits.  But you can't buy $12 of credits.  No no no.  You can either buy $10, $20, or $30, etc worth of credits.  So now, you're not just buying your suit of armor that looks awesome for $12.  No.  You're buying $20 worth of credits... for one item.  Not only is that MORE than a subscription... it's LESS content.

But you might justify it... "Well, at least I have some extra credits.  I have $6 left."  Except nothing useful is less than $8.  Using your money for XP boosts is an obvious waste of resources, because the game is so easy and short, you level up faster than you can keep up with paying for the talents or armor upgrades.  So now, to use that $6... you have to get $2 more, to get something else.  But again... you can't get $2... you have to get $10.  So now, you've spent $30 total, for one item you really wanted, and one item you didn't really want, but figure it couldn't hurt... and you have spent double a subscription fee.... 

It's not about "it's too much money."  If I couldn't afford it... I would complain about how it's too much money.  My point is that these are not ethically moral business practices, because they aren't even upfront about it in the first place, and they purposefully make the same crappy game every year and charge you more.  It's like EA and their Madden games.... only worse.

It's a scam.  The whole thing is a scame, and this is exactly why I have just about given up on MMO's altogether.  They'll milk this F2P crap for another 7-10 years before people realize they're STILL playing the same game over and over and over and over.

  furbans

Elite Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 927

7/01/13 12:25:41 PM#42
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Desias

EQ, EQ2, Rift.....Rift is new to the f2p scene but have any of the games that use to be p2p come out with an expansions since going f2p and has any game that started f2p come out with expansions.  Remember there is a difference between the meager content update and a whole expansion to a game.

If I'm right and I'm not saying I am. These are questions I'm asking as much as any point a may be trying to make.

BUT seems to me and please correct me if I'm wrong. Game Devs make more money doing less work with a f2p over p2p.

EQ2 had Chains of Eternity November 2012 -- a complete expansion

http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Chains_of_Eternity

beyond annual expansions, EQ2 and other ftp games do quarterly content updates

 

DDO did an expansion last year - and has another one due this summer

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/26/turbine-announces-shadowfell-conspiracy-expansion-for-ddo/

I dont follow what LOTRO has been doing

I wouldn't call that 2nd expansion for DDO an expansion.  The only thing that is offers ia a 3 lvl cap increase (which all this does is give playes another feat n stat) otherwise it's just a glorified patch.  Menace of the Underdark was an expansion with adding epic levels, epic destinies, Forgotten Realms quests, new raid, and what ever else was added.  This "expansion" is just a glorified update.  Nothing all that great and certainly not what should be considered an expansion.

As for the thread, F2P is done in a reasonable manner won't ruin the game.  People need to layoff the F2P hatesauce.  Granted very few reasonable F2P modes exists but it's capable.  DDO is a pretty good system before they added the Astral Shard P2W auction house while Neverwinter is so horrible it is a model of what not to do.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11491

7/01/13 12:47:29 PM#43
Originally posted by furbans

I wouldn't call that 2nd expansion for DDO an expansion.  The only thing that is offers ia a 3 lvl cap increase (which all this does is give playes another feat n stat) otherwise it's just a glorified patch. 

Menace of the Underdark was an expansion with adding epic levels, epic destinies, Forgotten Realms quests, new raid, and what ever else was added.  This "expansion" is just a glorified update.  Nothing all that great and certainly not what should be considered an expansion.

thanks for the clarification - I didnt know what DDO's August expansion was offering

  keenber

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/10/07
Posts: 438

7/01/13 1:21:49 PM#44
yes it will ruin EQN if its F2P like dragons prophet but not if its free to play your way like EQ
  ElderRat

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/10
Posts: 909

7/01/13 1:48:47 PM#45
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Desias

EQ, EQ2, Rift.....Rift is new to the f2p scene but have any of the games that use to be p2p come out with an expansions since going f2p and has any game that started f2p come out with expansions.  Remember there is a difference between the meager content update and a whole expansion to a game.

If I'm right and I'm not saying I am. These are questions I'm asking as much as any point a may be trying to make.

BUT seems to me and please correct me if I'm wrong. Game Devs make more money doing less work with a f2p over p2p.

EQ2 had Chains of Eternity November 2012 -- a complete expansion

http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Chains_of_Eternity

beyond annual expansions, EQ2 and other ftp games do quarterly content updates

 

DDO did an expansion last year - and has another one due this summer

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/26/turbine-announces-shadowfell-conspiracy-expansion-for-ddo/

I dont follow what LOTRO has been doinglotro has had expansions since f2p

Lotro has had expansions since going f2p.

Currently bored with MMO's.

  emperorwings

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1360

7/01/13 1:50:35 PM#46
Won't ruin it anymore than it did to EQ1 and EQ2

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  ClassicEQ

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/11
Posts: 145

7/01/13 11:38:15 PM#47

Anytime a service becomes free, you're going to see a consumer increase. This doesn't mean the game is going to be better for you as a player.

 

I wish SOE would only support their sub paying player base. Players will pay for a great game. Cash shops do not enhance the game. Combining real world money with in game cash shops is laughable (and annoying). This is a role playing game. There is no immersion in tacky cash shops and they do not make sense in Norrath.

 

EQN will be F2P. There is nothing we can do. SOE wants the money from micro transactions. It also expands their audience, thus increasing money spent on micro transactions.  I wish they would focus on making a great game and not  making extra money. Logically I don't see sub only happening, cause all their games are F2P now.

 

I'm just hoping I will be able to tolerate the cash shop. *shrug* .... Man I love EQ way too much. :P

 

 

 

 

 

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1784

7/02/13 8:40:30 AM#48
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
I have a huge fear that f2p will ruin EQN like it did eq2 and eq1, and literally every other f2p I've seen. I have not enjoyed a single f2p game because the games are so shallow, and anytime you need to do anything important you have to pay. You usually end up paying more than a sub, especially with multiple characters. What are some good f2p? Because the ones I've played and seen are just so boring after the first week. How can EQN do any better?

Agree fully with you on f2p. But there are exceptions, i.e. Swtor is same great game as before, Rift would not know, dropped him completely because of silly high hp on trivial mobs in new world of same level compared to old one. In old world ELITE mobs of same max level have less then half hp then NORMAL mobs in new world. Cheap way to extend presence of players in game as every fight with trivial mobs is epic.

  Ziegler

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/01/06
Posts: 143

7/02/13 8:54:12 AM#49
Originally posted by Notimeforbs

It's a scam.  The whole thing is a scame, and this is exactly why I have just about given up on MMO's altogether.  They'll milk this F2P crap for another 7-10 years before people realize they're STILL playing the same game over and over and over and over.

 

 

You're exactly right in your whole post. And people refuse to see it or believe it, and then they also vehemently support it. It's just like those payday loan places or rent to own businesses.

As well, customer service declines, over community declines, hacking increase, scamming increases...but all of that is acceptable since profits increase too.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

7/02/13 9:13:58 AM#50
I still dont get all the complaining about f2p...I played EQ from 2000-05 and spent well over a thousand bucks on it.....I felt like I wasted my money....I thought f2p was the best thing that ever happened to it...At first it was a little too strict but now it is a good model.....I wouldn't even give EQN a look if it was p2p.
  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11491

7/02/13 9:27:45 AM#51
Originally posted by Ziegler

customer service declines, over community declines, hacking increase, scamming increases...but all of that is acceptable since profits increase too.

when EQ2 went ftp, none of this happened making the game worse

 

I was a subscriber during EQ2's ftp transition

 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4781

7/02/13 9:28:35 AM#52

It's going to be a game with "sandbox" features.  Add to that a Cash Shop. I find it very difficult to see how having real money infused into an economy that is supposed to be (I'm assuming here) player driven can balance out. It's going to be tough not to foster an indirectly pay to win environment. I feel The Repopulation will face the same issues.

 

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Soki123

Elite Member

Joined: 8/10/08
Posts: 1319

7/02/13 9:30:51 AM#53
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Ziegler

customer service declines, over community declines, hacking increase, scamming increases...but all of that is acceptable since profits increase too.

when EQ2 went ftp, none of this happened making the game worse

 

I was a subscriber during EQ2's ftp transition

 

Same I was a subscriber, and still am to EQ2. None of these things happened at all.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19118

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/02/13 9:36:01 AM#54
Originally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
Originally posted by DamonVile
Being a crappy game ruins the game, payment model doesn't make or break a game.

The payment model is usually the reason it's a crappy game in this case. EQ1 and 2 were great but when they switched to f2p, if you weren't subbed it was awful. If EQN starts out that way, the majority of people will not pay the sub because they don't have to, they wont enjoy it, and they'll leave. What makes MMOs great is the MASSIVELY part. If everyone's gone it's not nearly as fun imo

I currently play a game with one server and a maximum population at a given time of around 1000 people.

Now, since I've played this game when it had more, say around 2000 I'd say that would be the more preferable amount, but we're all still having big fun with as few as 350 people on line during my normal playing times.

Its a bit of an illusion to say you need mega millions of players to have fun, truth is if your server has about 2-3K players, its more than enough to have a very good MMORPG experience.

And no, F2P hasn't ruined any of the former sub titles such as EQ1/2, if anything it saved them from an early grave.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  sirphobos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/10/11
Posts: 603

7/02/13 9:36:17 AM#55
SOE has done a good job with Planetside 2 and FTP.  Obviously an RPG is different from an FPS but I don't think free players will be as restricted as they are in EQ1 and EQ2.
  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11491

7/02/13 9:45:49 AM#56
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 I find it very difficult to see how having real money infused into an economy that is supposed to be (I'm assuming here) player driven.

i dont know what the player economy will bring

 

SOE has a virtual cash item similar to EVE's PLEX called Krono

I expect something similar will be offered in EQN

 

both SOE's Krono and EVE's PLEX are ingame items bought w real cash, and part of the player economy - seems to be working for EVE

 

http://www.evetimecode.com/what_is_plex.php

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/newsroom.cfm/loadNews/25848

SOE president John Smedley has announced the 'Krono', a tradeable in-game item (similar to EVE's PLEX) which will grant players 30 days of premium membership time in whatever game the item is redeemed, during this year's SOELive keynote.

The Krono will only initially be available in EverQuest II (beginning October 29, 2012), but SOE plans to expand this availability further to other SOE games going forward.

 

October 29, 2012

http://eq2wire.com/2012/10/29/krono-in-game-currency-going-live-today/

 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4781

7/02/13 10:42:38 AM#57
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 I find it very difficult to see how having real money infused into an economy that is supposed to be (I'm assuming here) player driven.

i dont know what the player economy will bring

 

SOE has a virtual cash item similar to EVE's PLEX called Krono

- I expect something similar will be offered in EQN

 

http://www.evetimecode.com/what_is_plex.php

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/newsroom.cfm/loadNews/25848

SOE president John Smedley has announced the 'Krono', a tradeable in-game item (similar to EVE's PLEX) which will grant players 30 days of premium membership time in whatever game the item is redeemed, during this year's SOELive keynote.

The Krono will only initially be available in EverQuest II (beginning October 29, 2012), but SOE plans to expand this availability further to other SOE games going forward.

 

October 29, 2012

http://eq2wire.com/2012/10/29/krono-in-game-currency-going-live-today/

 

PLEX isn't the perfect solution either. I don't believe EVE is the almighty sandbox game it's cracked up to be. People talk about the success that it is. Yeah, it's a successful niche game. I don't care about active subs. I only care about is how many unique active players it has. EVE's PLEX system encouages multiple accounts. And while most players have 2 maybe 3, How many active accounts do the top players maintain? How many accounts is someone like Mittens able to maintain through PLEX? There are 2 issues here.

While I won't call it P2W. But PLEX certainly has allowed the current  people at the top to stay there with no chance of being toppled....EVER! And also, for me, a game where having multiple accounts gets you an advantage or is highly encouraged to increase your overall experience, is a deal breaker. I went through that with Anarchy Online. I won't be doing it again. EQN will be F2P so I am curious to see how a PLEX-like system is going to be implemented.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11491

7/02/13 10:48:57 AM#58
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 EQN will be F2P so I am curious to see how a PLEX-like system is going to be implemented.

i could be totally wrong

but im expecting EQN to be a freemium game - with both ftp and sub options

  fledur

Novice Member

Joined: 9/06/08
Posts: 75

7/02/13 12:30:11 PM#59
I don't care if the game is F2P as long as I can play and forget about the cash shop. If for some reason the game keeps remembering me that it would be great to buy credits for this and for that, it really ruins the experience. GW2 imo did a good job on this aspect. Neverwinter on the other hand did not.
  ice-vortex

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 921

7/02/13 12:33:59 PM#60
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 EQN will be F2P so I am curious to see how a PLEX-like system is going to be implemented.

i could be totally wrong

but im expecting EQN to be a freemium game - with both ftp and sub options

Freemium doesn't even really exist in EQ1 and EQ2 anymore. So I doubt it will rear its ugly head again in EQN.

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